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Oil Filters, whose is best, and Why?
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Just kidding,
No question synth is better oil...and there is nothing wrong with doing everything to the best of one's ability and just hoping for a little good luck to go with it.
It probably would on average make a engine last longer than it would have otherwise..
I don't smoke either but might get a broken leg and die of infection, but I'd not be coughing..
I say if it makes you feel good do it, and talk about it to all of us heah!!
I think we should run a oil and filter store..
Rando
http://www.unofficialbmw.com/all/misc/all_oilfaq.html
http://www.weekendmechanicsclub.com/delco/filters/oilfil.html
http://www.f-body.org/oldfaq/html/tech/sect2.html#chooseoil
these were posted by the guys i talk to on the pickup forum in the silverado topic, they are great guys and usually have links to aall the info one could ask for.
I have scanned that second one so far, and I am deifinitely going to go back over it in more detail and also check out the others.
I guess I can do that while bottgers changes his underwear.
tom
Yes, it IS hard to walk a fine line between divulging your professional credentials in order to establish credibility and remaining anonymous at the same time. Obviously, you favored the former rather than the latter. Personally, I think your credibility would have shown through even if you hid your identity better because of the detail in your posts. There are plenty of us smart enough to spot the 'real thing' as opposed to some silly faker. >;^)
Oh, and it's good to hear that you feel there are no filters on the market that are a ‘risk’ to engines. Such was not the case with some of the brake pads I encountered while I was in that business. Also, there are currently available automotive products like methanol dry-gas and some engine flushes that should NEVER be used and I feel they should be pulled off the shelves immediately.
I'm sure that at least SOME of the Penske oil filters (available at K-mart) are made by WIX ... but their air filters appear to be Fram (orange foam rubber seal material) ... using the older paper without the signature orange fibers. I just bought one on sale for Dad's Mercury Grand Marquis for $3. >:^)
As for the comments on synthetic oil, I'll post my responses in the appropriate thread.
--- Bror Jace
BTW, the links were posted for me in the silverado topic on the pickup board by my friends Obyone & Quadrunner500. they deserve the credit, and they are two of the best guys you will ever talk to.
gone from high school to college on oil filter tech in the last few days, good job everyone..
Now which one is the best? he he
Good Morning everyone
As I've told you before, we use a combination of several different cellulose fibers and some synthetics.
The cellulose fibers are mostly wood pulp, but also in this category is cotton linters. This pulp is actually the fine cotton fibers from the cotton seed. The cotton seed oil mills remove this "hair" from the cotton seed prior to crushing the seeds to get the cotton seed oil. These fibers would otherwise soak up some of the oil and reduce the yield of the oil.
Cotton linters are used much less frequently than they used to be because of their relatively high cost compared to wood fibers. They are very good fibers for filtration purposes.
As for wood fibers, they really break down into two major categories: hardwoods and softwoods. In general, the hardwood fibers are much shorter and lower in diameter than the softwood fibers. We use the softwood fibers to give the sheet bulk and permeability, and the hardwoods are used to reduce pore size for efficiency of filtration.
Our wood fibers come from literally all around the world. We get our nice big southern pine fibers from Florida, our nothern hardwood fibers from Canada, our Eucalyptus (hardwood) fiber from Brazil, some Scandanavian softwood from Sweden, and there's even a pulp we buy from Swaziland in Africa.
This African pulp, believe it or not, is actually good old southern pine. Years ago, someone had the good idea that you might be able to transplant some US southern pine species to Swaziland, which is near the Equator, and, therefore, has a year-round growing season. The "crop rotation" is much shorter over there for these trees than it is in the southern US.
The species of tree used to make the pulp is the major contributor to the differences in the various pulps we use, but the pulping process itself also has an effect on the fibers. Most of our pulps are produced in the "kraft" process.
Some of our pulps are bleached and some are unbleached. The unbleached fibers are brown, but for automotive oil filters, where the paper isn't visible to the end user, who cares? Unbleached fibers are usually a little cheaper, since the bleaching process is skipped in the manufacture of this type of pulp.
Later, Guys
tom
tom
I went though a few posts in this topic and was amazed to see how people here discuss and obviously know a lot about oils/filters.
So I'll take the opportunity to ask the experts here a couple of questions. I don't know much about this topic so any pointers will be appreciated. Here it goes:
1. I have 2001 Maxima. Driven rarely, and mostly on very short trips. I change the oil every 5K miles, and use Mobil 1 (5-30) since the break in period (1K miles). Is this often enough? Car doesn't burn any oil. Right now car is driven 5K miles in 6-7 months. Is that too long between oil changes?
2. I also have a new Acura RSX-S. Car driven regularly 90 miles per day. One warm start in the morning (from a heated garage) and one cold start, normally, during the day. Manual says - change oil every 10K mils for normal conditions. Initial factory oil is not synthetic. Unlike my Maxima, I decided to follow the manual and wait for 10K miles before the first oil change. Is that too long? Also the car is high revving (up to 8K RPM) and burned 1QT of oil in the first 5K miles. Is that normal? I added a quart of Mobil 1 (5-30) to the factory non-synthetic oil. Is that ok?
For anyone with any answer - thank you very much!
Besides, all oils that are API certified HAVE TO BE compatible.
But, this does not mean you should change often. Sticking with one brand/type is safest in the off chance that one oil's additive packages don't get along well with another.
--- Bror Jace
not accurate to my knowledge---a common mispeception!
All API registered oils are compatable!
"there are currently available automotive products .... should NEVER be used and I feel they should be pulled off the shelves immediately"
AMEN AMEN AMEN - very true --- FTC/Justice only chases the "biggies" in alleged fraud
Merritt
ChE, STLE CLS(tm) (Certified Lubrication Specialist) yep, I work in Finished Lubicants Sales for huge energy company ---- BUT these opinions are my own & on my own time!
P.S. --- hey tsjay! I am a lurker/rare poster & an insider too; so I'm gonna avoid offending anyone by being too specific or editoral
Welcome, mwikle! Post often!
BTW, which oil is the best?
tom
Acura, I would go with a synthetic when you do change it. My current Buick has a indicator light, I did not go the full 7,500 (as suggested) the first time, changed to synthetic at 4400 analysis fine so I would not worry about it. Next change at 16,000 miles (oil will be in 12,000 miles) and I just changed the filter at the 6,000 miles (miles on the fitler or 10,500) mark.
YOU Can mix dino and synthetics with no harmful effects.
Where do these old wives tales come from????
We have some fibers that can be directly substituted for others and some fiber combinations that can be substituted for a particular pulp, but this is to cover shortages, not to react to price changes.
tom
Nice car. If I was to buy a car tomorrow to replace my current Civic Coupe I'd be torn between an RSX Type-S and a Celica GT-S. But, I won't go into why I'm torn here and now ... >;^)
"... and my dealer recommended that I change the oil at around 3000km or 1900 miles because when the engine is new and breaking in, it creates more metallic particles wear than normal, and therefore doing an oil change earlier than scheduled is a good idea to remove all those excess metal particles sooner rather than later."
This is 'old school' thinking ... and there's a lot of solid common sense to it. A few years ago I would have agreed with it 100% ... but lately I've heard some Honda owners (and Ford owners) that have been told that their crankcase has been filled with a special break in oil at the factory. (see below) So, I'm a little reluctant to recommend EVERYONE do this.
"I plan on switching to 5w-30 mobil 1 after the break in period. Can anyone suggest the best oil filter for the rsx type-s."
Motor oil choice sounds fine. The factory OEM Honda filters come in two flavors (both are colored blue). The first is a made-in-USA Filtech filter which is very, very good and is probable the preferred filter for most Honda/Acura automobiles. The other filter which is replacing it is a made-in-Canada filter manufactured by Fram. I've chopped one for these apart and it appears to be Fram's typical (low) quality, cardboard end-caps and all. I'd avoid this one and choose something else.
As far as aftermarket filters are concerned, Pure-One (Purolator's best), Baldwin, Hastings and Mobil1 are all very good. I've settled on Hastings because I've found a dealer who has them for $5 each (including S&H) along with some specialty automotive fluids I use. I usually like WIX (and its clones from NAPA and other sources) but the number for Hondas is rather small so I'd pick another instead.
sgrd0q, I missed your questions the first time through. Some cars burn more oil during break-in than they will at any other time in their useful lives. So, some oil consumption at this point is normal. How much is normal? Well, the RSX 2.0 engine (even the block) is brand new so I don't know what it could be compared to. And of course, higher-RPMs are harder on oil and have to be factored into any oil consumption you might notice. Adding Mobil 1 to your crankcase during this time should be OK.
Did you get a speech from the dealership about NOT changing your oil for the first few thousand miles (usually about 5,000 miles) because the car is filled with a special break-in oil? I've heard this from a few independent sources over the last year and a half for both Ford as well as Honda cars. Since I cannot see how the dealership can profit from turning away oil change customers, I'd tend to believe that this bit of advice is for real. Also, there was a bit about new Hondas being filled with a special, break-in oil on their factory website a while ago but they radically changed their site earlier this year and I have been unable to find the info since.
--- Bror Jace
The manual, however, recommends easy starts and stops for the first 600 miles. This is in the "Break-In" section. Also, in the same section it explicitly says the oil should not be changed before the first scheduled interval comes. Surprisingly, for normal driving conditions they recommend oil changes every 10K miles, and filter changes every 20K miles. (For extreme conditions they recommend 5K-oil and 10K-filter changes.)
So after 5K miles I burnt 1qt, and added Mobil 1.
thx
sdr0q,
I think the manual telling you NOT to change the oil before a certain time is a clue that they put a special oil in the crankcase at the factory ... but unfortunately, it's only a vague clue. Does Acura have a 800 number in your manual somewhere for Honda America? This would be a better, more definitive answer than anything you'll hear from a dealer ... even a good (non-sleazy) one.
Either way, I'd use the "severe service" as a first change interval.
Seelig,
I used to haunt the use.net forums like rec.autos.Honda before "my-deja.com" was bought out by "Google.com" and I found a genuine tribologist there from North Jersey and we kicked around some theories as to what might be in a typical "break-in" oil. Even he wasn't sure. Theories ranged from a micro-polishing agent that would microscopically scour the cylinder liners allowing the rings to better mate to the walls as well as extra amounts of ZDDP in the oil to protect the metal while things were still very tight ... because the newer, SJ standard oils have less of this vital anti-wear compound.
But, that's all they were, theories. We had no real clue as to what's in that stuff. Your idea of a dye is an interesting one, but you'd think that an oil leak on a brand new car would be pretty easy to spot, wouldn't you?
The mystery continues, I gues ...
--- Bror Jace
your micro polish theory is the best so far, but the engine builder would have to have the tight clearance dimensions on every moving part don't you think? otherwise there might be premature wear on parts that didn't need any of the lapping that other parts do. then again, any lapping compunds would be filtered out by the filter. would be nice if someone really knew the answer.
thx
I think Advanced Auto Parts "gives" you 5 quarts of Mobil 1 if you buy one of their reman'ed engines.
I've not asked them, but wonder if you could request them to get you some of that break in oil. Or ask your dealer parts department.
It seems reasonable that their might be they dye, and perhaps a mild friction compound in there. But who knows for sure?
I've also heard there are more/less detergents in the first fill. Again, who knows for sure?
TB
My oil analysis has made me come to the conclusion that Mobil 1 cannot go much longer than conventional oils. I would bet that most of the other synthetics would be the same. Blackstone labs who did my analysis recommended dropping back to 4,000 mile changes and retesting.
Are the people on here who advacate extending oil changes with synthetics, baseing their information on oil analysis or by manufactures's claims? I'm pretty disappointed in Mobil 1 right now and do not believe it is as good as it once was. I'm wondering if they went the route that Castrol did.
Think about it, the oil they USUALLY see is probably the 15W40 diesel heavy duty stuff that starts out at around 2% of ZDDP while Mobil 1 tri-synthetic starts out with about 0.75%. This might be why the level seemed awfully low to them.
Try Valvoline Synpower Synthetic which has around 1.5% of ZDDP if you're unsure of the newer Mobil 1.
The reason why new car engine builders don't spend extra time polishing the motor to the 9th degree is that it is too expensive. It's easier to get it to a certain (good) level and throw a friction modifier or whatever in the oil and let it break-in.
--- Bror Jace
It might interest you to know that the oil change interval on that engine as well as the VR6 engine is: first change at 5,000, second at 10,000, then every 10,000 miles thereafter with regular oil. VW's official stance is that synthetic may be used if the owner so desires, but it isn't required. I don't know how long I will keep my Jetta, so I use synthetic oil at the normal interval (every 10k).
The comments about splitting may not be statistical, but like Toyota sludging they are troubling. Especially since the Champion Labs filter is made tougher and since other Champion Labs filters have no reports of these incidents.
http://www.frankhunt.com/FRANK/corvette/articles/oilfilterstudy/oilfilterstudy.html
"Mobil 1 M1-301
Like the Champ filter, this filter is made by Champion Labs. However, it uses a unique end plate and a thicker can that make it the strongest filter available for wide distribution retail sale. It also uses a synthetic media,which inproves filtration and flow. I'm happy to say that this filter is NOT a fake. It is definitely a unique design. It uses a synthetic fiber element that can filter out very small particles
and is very strong. It is rated just under the Purolator Pure One as far as filtering capability, but is still very much above conventional paper
filters. It also has a very strong construction to withstand high pressure spikes during start-up. However, as with all Mobil 1 products, expect to
pay 2 - 3 times as much for this filter.
I have received many reports of these filters failing at high pressures. It seems that the seam where the backplate crimps to the case can split."
The paper could be totally clogged, and, if the by-pass valve in either the engine or in the filter itself, whichever the case may be, is working, then the worst effect of that would be unfiltered oil, not a catastrophic failure of the filter.
tom
It's gonna be a good football Sunday folks !!
Rando
tom
If they leaked early on though, I doubt I would buy any more and write it off to VERY good advertising and not enough [non-permissible content removed] behind it.
And it's a good day for ANY sports ain't it?
Rando
Your comments about heating/cooling cycles in extended changes is interesting. Just like airliners become stressed after so many years.
In the filter report that individual said...
"I have received many reports of these filters failing at high pressures. It seems that the seam where the backplate crimps to the case can split."
We don't know the circumstances under which the failures occurred and have only second or third hand information that any failed at all. The guy doesn't say how many reports of failure he received and doesn't even say that he verified any of the complaints.
In the AC Delco filter article a few posts back, it stated that when a filter blows up, it is never the filter's fault, because there should never be that kind of pressure in the filter unless something else failed, like the oil pump pressure relief valve.
We just don't have enough facts here.
tom
BTW I strongly recommend that if you own a GM product and use a PF-47 you upgrade up to the PF-52, which is almost 1 1/2 inches longer. And when you figure the entire 1 1/2 inches is extra length of filter media you get at least an increase of 50% filter area. So anong with everything else I also switched to the larger capacity filter. I looked very closely at the Pure One specs on page 929-930 of their (Pure One)filter application menu and eiher filter will work if the clearance is there. Again-I'm not claiming any breakthrough here-just information based on some most excellent discussions here- thanks.
Al
The comment about a filter should hold it's own unless another componant causes failure is probably a good statement too, any internal bypass that does not bypass will be a filter killer, and would also cause leaks elsewhere as well which would indicate that the filter was just another victim of overpressure,,,but if it was only the filter...."hello, Mr Mobil1 do you have a minute?"
I put a K&N filter on my car ('95 Civic Coupe) and but I didn't like paying such a premium for such a small canister. That's my rational for not using a Mobil 1 filter either. Also, I did not find that welded-nut structure on the back of the K&N canister terribly helpful. Give me the standard, faceted end that a filter wrench can grip. >:^D
BUT the K&N DOES flow more. I heard of Ford Contour SVT drivers preferring the K&N because the OEM Motorcraft filter starves the mtor for oil at high-RPM use because it is so restrictive. So, I'd believe their claims ... the ones about flow, anyway.
Zr2rando, I generally like the WIX/NAPA filters but since I'm primarily a Honda man and the inner filter cartridge is rather small in #1334 (Honda part number) I generally avoid WIX/NAPA Gold (and Castrol and Penske ... same manufacturer even if they aren't identical) for Hondas ... but like 'em a lot for most other (domestic) applications. They are really, REALLY well made.
Right now I've got a couple Hastings on my shelf (good size for Hondas) and I'll be sticking with them for a while ... especially since I get them for $5 each delivered to my door.
--- Bror Jace
Al
WIX has a #1344 which fits ... but I was told that the bypass filter opens at a much lower pressure than the #1334 and the larger (taller) filter rubs on part of the engine.
--- Bror Jace
I think I'm gonna try the Castrol plus for a couple and see how they look inside , the pf52 equivalent does not have a bypass in the filter and my trucks have the filter at a remote (always full of oil anyway so the antibackflow valve doesn't really matter either, guess I'm just checking the filter itself.
ttp://www.auto-motor-oil.com/