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After that, change the oil every 4,000 to 5,000 miles despite Honda's scheduled 10,000-mile intervals.
Well, the 2007 OWNER's MANUAL, does not recommend actual intervals. But previous years the intervals were: 10,000 miles for for "normal" driving. I have been to Alexandria, VA, and it is no where near normal driving, it falls under "severe" schedule... which is incedentally 5,000 miles.
Your independant guys just re-invented the wheel.
So, who told you that you need to change it at 10,000 miles? OWNER's MANUAL does not.
I'm personally still at the 3K limit for all my vehicles.
What about the unnecessary damage to the environment from the unneccessary oil changes, and the unneccessary pollution, and the unneccessary waste of dynosaurus juice?
If you look at the oil after the first 10 minutes of running, it will be just as filthy as you claim it is after 3,000 miles...
But, to each his own...
When an engine is breaking in, bits of metal are cut loose from various parts and circulate in the engine oil. Most of it takes place in the first thousand miles or so, according to people who know engines. Uh, does that oil filter snare 100 percent of the flecks of metal and continue to hold fast to them for the full 10,000 miles? If you think so, I've got a war in the Middle East to sell you along with a bridge in New York.
And if you're so sure about the significance/importance etc. of special additives at the car's birth, then please explain exactly what they are and what they do and how they do it and PRECISELY how long they need to work their magic. What would be the true loss of changing that first additive-laden oil at 1,000 miles as opposed to 10,000 miles. Because the manual says so? Again, check my original post.
I raised legitimate questions posed by professionals whom I trust. And I rebuilt enough engines many years ago that it rings true to me.
And I always love those reponses that say, hey, just look at the manual. I think my original post noted reasons why critical thinking on the part of others who do not work for the manufacturer might be legitimate and offer valuable input.
honda's engine engineers are professionals.
who is most likely to know their engines best?
tidester, host
SUVs and Smart Shopper
And if you're so sure about the significance/importance etc. of special additives at the car's birth, then please explain exactly what they are and what they do and how they do it and PRECISELY how long they need to work their magic. What would be the true loss of changing that first additive-laden oil at 1,000 miles as opposed to 10,000 miles. Because the manual says so?
A working filter will filter out all those particles, unless there is a hole in it.
The additive is Molibdenium (Mo) aka Moly... the closest oil to the Honda break in oil is Valvoline MaxLife, which is high in Moly.
The true loss will be harder working engine since the lubrication enhance moly is not there after the first oil change. If you are inclined so to change it after 1000 miles, change it with Maxlife, although I doubt that you will find it in 5W-20...
I am sure we will hear a debate on how 5W-20 is too thin to protect your engine...
Oil's lubrication properties are not dependant on its viscosity...
I don't think the manual mentions 10,000 mile intervals...
yeah, i don't think it's made in that formulation:
http://www.valvoline.com/products/Maxlife.pdf
I'm not sure what you consider "informed".
I suppose perhaps you didn't read my post about Honda recommending you keep the factory oil in the engine, so here is the direct quote from the Honda Owner's site:
"Why should I wait to change the oil the first time?
Your Honda engine was delivered with an oil that is specially formulated for new engines that have not yet developed their "natural" wear patterns and may contain minute particles from the manufacturing process.
American Honda strongly recommends this special oil be left in the engine long enough for these wear patterns to develop, usually until the first maintenance interval specified in your Owner's Manual, based on your specific driving conditions."
Just to continue to be "informed", here is the next topic:
"How often should I change my oil after the first service?
Refer to your owner's manual for the recommended service intervals. Separate maintenance schedules are listed for "normal service" and "severe service." Read the description of severe service carefully. Most vehicles will fall under the normal service category. Note that the service intervals are listed by time in addition to distance. Your oil should be changed at whichever interval, time or distance, occurs first.
There is absolutely no benefit in changing your oil more frequently than recommended in your owner's manual. This will only increase your cost of ownership, and create an unnecessary burden upon the environment by increasing the amount of disposed oil.
Do not exceed the recommended maintenance interval. Oil eventually deteriorates and loses its ability to protect your engine, due to heat, friction, and exposure to exhaust components. Engine oil contains special additives to enhance the oil's performance, and these additives are also broken down or consumed with distance and time. Engine damage can occur if the proper maintenance schedule is not followed."
Wow, a little research goes a long way... :sick:
Look at this line you lifted from the owner's manual: ...."usually until the first maintenance interval specified in your Owner's Manual."
Besides this being self-referential on the part of the manual, please note the use of the word: USUALLY.
In my line of work, journalism, that's called a hedge.
But, hey, every news release out of the White House today is authoritative, you know. They wouldn't distribute the information if it weren't true. Gosh.
I have read the owners manual. Carefully. I also know cars, human nature and the difference between corporate needs/convenience/liabilty and the nuances of the real world.
But, wow. A lot of unquestioning belief goes even further.
Question: if a working oil filter gets out all those particles unless, as you say, there is a hole in it....how come when you do that first oil change there is a dark-sky galaxy of sparkling oil flecks in the oil. Is that all from just the very last circulation of oil through the engine before shutting it off in anticipation of changing the oil?
And for others here, that 10,000 mile milestone must be a hoot. I can see some poor guy developing ulcers because he went 10,003 miles and missed it.
What Honda is talking with these intervals, instructions etc. is what is acceptable and workable with thousands of sometimes less-than-100-watt bulbs who buy their cars. What I'm talking about is optimization.
There is a difference.
I own a 2004 Honda CRV and I have always done most maintenance on my cars myself. I have to replace the front brake pads, however, when I consulted my Haynes shop manual , they mentioned that the front brake pads MUST be replaced at the same time as the rear brake pads. I have never heard of this before. I have heard that you should not replace only one SIDE-that makes sense to me. Since the front brake pads wear faster due to weight and momentum, I would rather not replace the rear pads, as I am sure they have more life on them. In fact, on previous cars, I generally have replaced the front pads vs. the rear pads on a 2:1 ratio.
Has anyone run into this issue? Have dealers replaced both sets of pads at the same time? Thanks for your input.
-Chris
I suspect the European change interval for the CR-V sold over there is more like 10,000 miles too. Probably similar mileage for the ones made for the Japanese market.
Anyone got a source for owner's manuals in other countries?
The problem I'm having right now...
My 1998 Honda CR-V died on me driving on high way. It suddenly can't change gear (although my car is automatic), then the speed slowly decrease, then finally it died on me.
I tried to start my engine after I turned it off and rest for a while, but there was no luck, so I had to tow my car to car repair shop. (I didn't take to dealership).
Anyway, they replace my distributor (new, but not Honda distributor with 2 years warranty), and spark plugs, and wires to fix my car.
Now it's running.
However, I MAYBE become super sensitive, but I feel like something is not right.
First, the engine doesn't turn on as normal second... meaning... like when you turn your key on, it will make chi chi chi chi noise, then engine starts.
When my car sits long enough not running, then I tried to turn on my engine, the "chi chi chi" noise will last a bit longer than usual... sometimes more than a bit longer.
I took my car back to the shop, they told me to replace a battery, so I did, but the problem didn't fix...
I was starting to wonder if i was maybe too sensitive about a thing... and then now, "check engine" light came on.
I took it back again, they reset and turned the light off and told me to come back if the light came back on...
not even a day, the light came back on, again I took my car back, then they tested, now tells me I need to replace Catalytic Converter.
Here is the thing...
the shop owner seems nice and honest, but now i'm starting to have doubt about it....
The reason why.. is I also took my car to different repair shop, and they did lightly test my car about my "check engine" light problem.
These people told me it's probably the distributor itself might not be a good one.
I did mentioned that to my car repair shop about it, and they said they are sure it's not distributor, but Catalytic Converter.
On top of my engine starting issue, and driving experience, i feel like the car gear changes kinda odd way... also my gas went out much quicker than before my car died.
Sorry it has been a very long posting, but i'm just very confused who I should trust... i know there is no way that I will know who to trust.. but i wonder if there is anyway to find out by how not good distributor would cause to my car, and the way it drives... etc... or some easy way...
I'd like to find that out before I'm going to spend another $400 to replace Catalytic Converter.
If anyone can help me??
Thanks
This is a simplified anthropology explanation...
A few million years ago, when a stray meteorite struck the earth it created a huge dust cloud which started a very long ice age. 90% of the animals and plants died. The dust eventually settled a covered them all up. Over the years, dead animals became what we know as crude oil, and dead plants became what we know as coal.
People who think that we have this endless source of crude oil and coal don't realize that there was a finite number of animals and plants at the time of the catastrophie. Eventually we will run out of it.
The part would have cost you $40 anyways. The special socket is $10-$20 and goes on the regular ratchet.
Why is it dealer's fault that you did not want to do it? Should they have done it for the cost of parts? I will buy paint, will you paint my house for free?
They did not charge you $178 for labor, you AGREED to pay that much for labor. I am pretty sure you were presented with an estimate and could have just turn around and left. Did they hold a gun to your head and force you to pay $178 for labor?
i could be mistaken.
There is a certain size limitation on what filter can trap. I am sure Honda engineers have calculated what particle size is harmfull and which is not. If you have a filter that traps the most minute particles, it will start trapping oil. Because oil is nothing more than long olefin chains of carbon and hydrogen.
The specs that you see is probably Molybdenium itself.
I think you guys are right...
I probably wasting my time and money to go to local car repair shop.
It's just financial thing that I'm afraid dealer just cost too much that for me to fix my car.
Thanks again...
Excuse me, I don't have a 2007 owner's manual, so it would interest me as to how I "lifted it".
Look, if you don't want to believe the people who built the vehicle, that's fine with me. Personally, I generally go to the source for info - in this case Honda America. You can go to some other source if you like...
Feel free to post your "informed" URL(s).
If you happen to have more than a passing acquaintance with a professional auto mechanic -- and I suppose most folks don't -- ask them if they go 10,000 miles between oil changes on their own cars.
Dollar to dougnut, you will hear them say Zip. Nada. No way.
Check on it.
Remember, I'm following Honda's instructions with my new 2007 CR-V because I'm sure the engine will last through my extended warranty and the next owner loses. But if I planned to keep it more than five years, I'd already have changed the oil way ahead of time in the fashion I described in my original post.
And if we want to follow the thinking of Honda professionals, consider this bit of detail from one of my many trips back to the dealership last year in my ultimately successful quest to get Honda to buy back my 2005 in arbitration because of excessive torque steer. (Instead of taking the cash, I got them to give me a great deal on a 2007, and am prohibited by that process from disclosing any more detail pn the deal.)
On one of the last of many trips back to the dealer, they sent me out on a drive with a mechanic who said he had the answer. He went back and simply switched the two front tires(against Honda's own recommended tire rotation pattern) which temporarily reversed the pull and sent it left. (The arbitrator found that "repair attempt" damning, as did I.) In our chat during the drive, the mechanic said he owns a small Mercedes SUV. Does that information from a Honda professional mean I should have gone Mercedes?
And for stevedebi: If you didn't lift that line with the word "usual" from the Honda manual, I have to assume you either got it from the Psychic Hotline or it's a bit of creative writing. Neither works for me.
I don't see any mileage intervals listed for an oil change - just references to the maintenance minder gizmo. The manual does say "Do not change the oil until the scheduled maintenance time."
The Honda Owner's Link FAQ says "There is absolutely no benefit in changing your oil more frequently than recommended in your owner's manual. This will only increase your cost of ownership, and create an unnecessary burden upon the environment by increasing the amount of disposed oil." (link - may require registration)
Check out Synthetic motor oil and Engine Oil - A slippery subject Part 2 for biased opinions in the other direction.
Don't know if the high mileage oils are a marketing gimmick or not.
Has anyone thought about or considered the idea of splitting these two theories in half?... It seems to me just about 1/2 of us are of the thinking of getting that break-in oil out of there just as soon as possible after the reccomended miles for everything to "seat". The other 1/2 seems to want to follow manufacturers reccomendation & follow the "maintenance minder"
Why not get the best of both... change oil the 1st time at around 3K & maybe every 4K-5K after that!! My understanding is that engine should be broke in at the latest 1K, leaving & extra 2K or so for the "factory moly oil" to have done its thing... Any thoughts??
Because if you don't you will never have an accurate record of when maintenance or oil changes are needed.
Do not reply unless you have a 2007 CR-V.
So, I did a quick and certainly non-exhaustive search and came up with something from a guy I love listening to on a local radio show here in the D.C. area -- Pat Goss. He owns a well-respected repair shop and, besides radio, does a car maintenance/repair column regularly for the Washington Post newspaper.
Here is what he says to a question about when to do the first oil change. It appears to me that he's trying to get the questioner on the right track about all oil changes more than he is concerned with the first one. But he does, quite pertinent to this discussion, point out that the break-in period is, ta-da, about 1,000 miles.
Arlington, Va.: Mr. Goss -- I bought a 2006 Honda Civic in October, and the manual doesn't provide a detailed explanation about when to get a first oil change and the break-in period. When should I get the first oil change? I've been getting different answers, at 500 miles, at 3,000 miles, at 5,000 miles. Is there a certain way to drive during the break-in period? How long is a break-in period? and can I take six-hour road trips during a break-in period. Thank you in advance!
Pat Goss: 3,000 or 5,000 not 500. That's an absolute waste. Three thousand if you do a lot of short trip driving. Five thousand if your driving is mostly on the highway. Break-in is typically a thousand miles. And even during break-in you could take a 600 hour trip, the only thing to be concerned with is to vary the speed every 10-15 minutes and avoid full throttle acceleration and hard braking.
scroll to that particular exchange at: http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/discussion/2005/10/20/DI20051020011- 69.html
And for his web site:
http://www.goss-garage.com/
I do know that Goss recommends regularly changing oil at 3,000 to 5,000 miles. I adhere to that, even with synthetic oils that say they're good for 15,000 miles. If I pay another $30 a year unnecessarily to do that, and I change my oil myself, of course, the psychic placebo effect is still priceless for me.
Again, I suggest seeking out a real live professional mechanic of good reputation and asking him how often he changes his oil, and how he would approach the first one with a new engine. You might be surprised. I expect most, and I mean MOST not many, will tell you never go 10,000 miles between changes and don't go much over 1,000 before the first one.
What Honda is telling you is not wrong and it is not bad. But I believe it is not optimal. Their concern is not that the engine last as long as possible. They factor in other things, such as convenience, expense and turnover.
If you are diagnosed with a rare cancer, are you going to just go with that or might you seek a second opinion? This is more important than even a $28,000 automobile purchase. Following the logic of some who post here, a diagnosis from a professional physician would go unquestioned. A colleague of mine recently was diagnosed with pancreatic cancer, which is a death sentence. Upon second opinion, it turned out to be a rare but treatable cancer -- he's just fine with a $4,000 shot into his buttocks every four months, which to him is pleasurable considering the alternative. It's a joke for the rest of us in the office because we'd like to put pennies in his butt with a syringe.
As for those who say they believe and go by whatever the seller tells them, no matter what, well, I say go for it. It won't happen with your and my Hondas, but in some other situations in life the herd will be thinned by that approach -- to my benefit and that of others who question more and look beneath the surface.
Serious question - how come you never see anyone recommending that you change the tranny fluid on a new car? Transmission fluid doesn't get the combustion blow-back that oil does, but shouldn't there be metal "shaving" in a new tranny just like a new engine?
Oh, please, don't get me started on that one! :P
tidester, host
SUVs and Smart Shopper
In 30 years of owning Hondas and Toyotas, I've always followed the recommended oil change schedule, and I've always kept my cars for 150-175,000 miles. I've never, repeat never, had an engine problem. By that mileage there are other reasons why I want a new car.
Now maybe if I wanted to keep the car for an extra 100K miles, then maybe more frequent oils changes might make sense. But how many people does that apply to?
I'm old enough to have had a grandfather that hailed from the era when oil changes were done at 1500 miles. When the 3,000 mile change policy was first recommended, he denounced it with all the fervor seen here.
He just couldn't see that engines, lubrication systems, and oils change over time. What was once true isn't necessarily true forever more.
Needless to say, my grandfather died thinking that 3,000 oil changes were crazy. History does repeat itself.
And to the poster who compared oil changes to a cancer diagnosis, that is the most ridiculous comparison I've ever heard of. I know of no one that is dumb enough NOT to get a 2nd opinion for something like a cancer diagnosis.
Sounds like conflict of interest there. If you knew you had a supply of gullible people willing to give you $30 every 3 months, wouldn't you perpetuate the myth that brought them in droves to your shop? I know I would...
I think a while back there was a study involving different oils and NYC cabs. We are not talking about casual "traffic sitter" we are talking NYC cabs that take beating on the streets of NYC every day and night, 24 hours a day. Even the cheapest oil was still good (by chemical analysis) after 5,000 miles of cab duty. So, what does the average driver do that merrits more frequent oil changes? Drives like Michael Schumacher? (Many NYC cabbies may not know who Michael Schumacher is, but they certainly drive like him)
link
The CR NYC taxi study changed oil at 6,000 mile intervals (link). The criticism with that study is that the cabs do run "24/7." Most wear supposedly comes from starting cold engines.
If you are getting the work done at the dealer, no matter what interval you are comfortable with, it pays to shop around so you don't pay twice what the service is worth in your area:
2007 Honda Fit Sport: 10,000-mile Service
The 10,000 mile service for a 2007 CR-V in my zip code (oil, filter change, tire rotation, and various inspections) should run around $84. (Edmunds Maintenance Guide)
I have an 05 CR-V Ex model, 42,000 miles now. IT has the worst horrible pull to the right exactly like the post I am quoting hre.Ive had it aligned 3 times and all times service says its fine, its in alignment. Well finally I got a tech {whom I am friends with, his wife and the other service tech} say there is a TSB out on the right front strut. THAT will fix the pull.
Is there a link for this or can someone point me to this alleged TSB on the front struts???
My wife doesnt care about this pull but since IM not too happy with my 07 Camry, Ive been driving her CR-v and its worse than it was...
Can ya help me?
http://www.in.honda.com/Rjanisis/pubs/SB/A05-022.PDF