I'm not saying that *some* kinds of additives can't do *some* good, (certain fuel injection cleaners, some top oils, fuel stabilizers, some short-term detergents) but it's the CLAIMS they make that get my hackles up.....this "more HP, better mileage" nonsense....as if a 12 oz can of something can cure the world's energy crisis or match the benefit of a turbocharger. It's just poofery at best, fraud at worst.
Spend a couple of bucks and read the article. If you are not informed, I'll refund you the $ you paid for the issue. Perhaps another closed and narrow mind will be opened a crack for the facts. This specific situation does not come under your broad and general attitudinal knowledge. You may learn something in this case.
The oil engineer I've chatted with remarked that zinc and phosphorus were commonly used oil anti-wear additives, but have been replaced in recent years by other additives. He did not detail what those other additives were.
Zddplus sounds like a very specialized product for older cars not having cat converters. One of the SAE articles they quoted was printed in 1977, which was back when cat converters were in their infancy.
The site warns about not using Zddplus in cars with cat converters:
Why should ZDDPlus™ not be used in OBD [On Board Diagnostic] cars?
The key ingredient of ZDDPlus™ is ZDDP, which has been known to shorten catalytic converter life. Manufacturers have been redesigning engines for the last decade to minimize the need for ZDDP, in order to lower emission levels. One method is switching over to roller rockers.
I've been on the ZDDPlus website and I've digested what they say and my conclusion is that no engine running on the street needs any more Phos or Zinc that you can get with heavy duty modern oils. The assertion that older engines are failing due to a lack of ZDD in modern oils is without hard evidence and highly unlikely. Maybe vintage drag racers, pro street cars, etc. could claim this, (presuming they all haven't gone to roller cams) but not any vintage car in normal street use IMO. And given the stresses of racing, who's to say exactly what happened?
Anyway, you want peace of mind? You can just use SJ or SL, plus CH-4, type oils. That's all you'll ever need IMO.
Here's a nice list I found:
1. Castrol RX Super 15w40 2. Chevron Delo 400 15w40 3. Mobil Delvac 1300 Super 15w40 4. Pennzoil Long-Life 15w40 5. Quaker State 4X4 Synthetic Blend 15w40 6. Shell Rotella-T 15w40 7. SuperTech 2000 (WalMart) 15w40 8. Valvoline All Fleet 15w40 9. Castrol Syntec Blend Truck and 4X4 15w40
I believe ZDDPlus has everything in it they claim it has, so it is not being misrepresented as per content (which is what their "lab tests" are saying---not that it "works").
But it looks to me, from what I've been reading, that ZDDPlus is a cure in search of a problem.
I don't have to prove that ZDDPlus prevents flat tappet wear---THEY have to prove that modern oils cause it --- and they haven't. Their ads are full of "argument by assertion", which claims that lots of flat tappet engines are showing wear, but wear is the evidence?
NADA. I'm ready to see it, bring it on. I want bench-tested vintage engines, side by side, newly rebuilt, 10 with regular modern oil, 10 with ZDDPlus, run 'em for 50000 miles and show me.
An analysis of engine oil in my XT Forester at 3000 miles revealed the main additives were calcium, phosphorus, zinc, and molybdenum. A tiny bit of boron, silicon and iron were also there. Everything else in trace amounts.
The oil is Chevron 5w30 (I do not know AP rating but assume it's match for the Turbo engine as Subaru recommended it). Only additive is ASL Camguard.
Happily, the oil had little soot and no water/gas contamination. I did the analysis because some folks have had major XT engine failure around this mileage - this engine seems ok.
I Have to agree with Mr.Shriftright for about 99%. I always hold out hope that there will be something that comes along to make an engine last almost forever. Part of my wish came along with Syn oils,better filters/filter systems, and maybe someday a pour in can of "forever engine life" zero wear for 80 years!!! Most of us know the additives,for all intent will not get you much and if they did then why use oil,Put in one can STP,Prolong,Z-Max, Teflon junk?,one can of whatever Wal-Mart has on the Red tag close out,and just a touch of Marvel mystery oil,Weld her shut and Drive anyway you want,it just won't wear out or break!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!- - !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Always research,get the facts,then look for double blind tests,and when you find them,see what Governmental agency recommends them and you just might have something there! Good luck Guys with additives, Mike C
'09 XT's have had random bearing failure anywhere from 1-2K to 13K miles. There was one recall early in the '09 model year, then various reports on Subaru forums.
Seemed prudent to check the oil at least once just to be sure. :-)
arg...that sounds bad. I guess if it's random bearing failure then checking the oil won't much matter---usually bearing failure is an oil starvation issue--like a plugged oil galley. I suppose a new engine could burn up all its oil, but one would think the driver would notice those clouds of blue smoke. But maybe not.
Star Tron appears to be an enzyme based fuel additive, apparently appearing on the market around 2007, apparently designed to stabilize fuel and to help cope with water collecting within E-10 gasoline. Prime market was recreation vehicles.
However, its maker seems to be expanding to chain stores such as Walmart, and the info with the product also claims power increase of 10% and fuel economy improvements of 16%. Their claim is enzymes help improve combustion efficiency and better blending of E-10 and H2O within the fuel tank. The site has many of the usual testimonials, some bordering on science fiction, others sounding reasonable. The editorial articles sounded reasonable but offered no hard comparisons (none of "we put STP in tank A and Star Tron in Tank B and....").
The claims defy credibility I'm afraid. If they had said 1 to 3% I might be more lenient, but to presume that they can with with a can what takes automakers 100 million dollars to achieve...gives us pause.
I'm always up for heeding any scientific evaluation. Magnets for instance can apparently have some limited medical benefit---but that was proven in double-blind trials under rigorous testing....and even then, the results are a bit "soft" but still statistically significant. Whenever these snake oils go under the scientific magnifying glass, they go POOF! like the smoke and mirrors they really are.
I remember in the early 80's when we were living in the Bay Area, they had a guy on a talk show. I think it was KGO who was very convincing about the merits of Cow Magnets.
I didn't buy it at the time but a lot of other people did.
I've found nothing works better than pyramids :P Cures arthritis and improves gas mileage. 'Course, you have to build your pyramid using my special plans to see those benefits. Just wire your money to this special account in Nigeria and I'll send you the plans - promise :shades:
Well, ST is looking like Snake Oil after all. Its MSDS ingredient statement revealed product is 95% Naphtha, 0.5 % proprietary Organic compound. Whether that's useful enzymes or recycled cow flop is anyone's guess but the ST chemist, and he ain't talkin'.
A letter to the ST manufacturer requesting hard data has gone unanswered. I've sent a similar request to the distributor.
That's a lot different from the maker of another additive I've had good luck with, with actual data behind it. It's been discussed and dismissed here so no point in bringing it up again.
BTW, Marvel Mystery Oil is mostly Naphtha with wintergreen fragrance. And no, I don't use it
Thanks for the info. 95% Naptha = 95% gasoline, the components of naptha are the same that make up part of a gallon of gasoline. The other 5% (or is it 0.5%?) must be some amazing stuff!
Here's how it works - instead of your normal 10 gallon fillup, just put in 2 gallons of this stuff, and fill it up with 8 gallons of gas - instant 20% mpg improvement! Only costs you $30!
So, you just spent $50 on Shiftright's Magic Engine Thingie Fluid? Your gas mileage went up, didn't it? Or would you like to post to the world that you got robbed?
"Well...er....sure my mileage seems to have gone up...I'm no sucker, after all!" **
** The human mind is a tricky thing---it tends to validate that which we need it to validate, and seems to blithely ignore any evidence to the contrary.
Hmmm, looks like the well-regulated militia is in for some jail time.
So what's the newest, hottest snake oil on the market now? The hydrogen generators seem to have bubbled their last bit of gas. Are they still selling Turbonators?
I'm sure when gasoline prices spike again, they'll be crawlin' out of the woodwork.
Stopped at my local Shell station where I can use my Kroger gas discount 10 cents at a time per gallon.
I noticed a business card stuck into the corner of the pump top advertising Shell has. It was advertising a gasoline additive. It had been sealed in plastic on both sides to protect it from the weather.
I guess a gas station would be a good place to advertise using the Shell company space. It's sort of like putting your ad on Edmunds.
I dropped the business card in the trash and checked the adjacent pumps and didn't find one there.
I always thought the concept was rather pointless, given how cheap a good oil filter is these days. But yeah, if you were living through air raids in Berlin in 1944, a Frantz filter would probably have been very handy.
I did about two years of research on oil filters and filtering systems. I found the toilet filter to not be as consistent for the micron filter range I was looking for,although it does a good job. The system I used was more consistent in filtering time, micron size, and ease of filter change. In short I did not choose the Frantz filter but some still do.
From my review of oil filtering / bypass systems then as now, they do filter to a lower micron contamenant size, but the TP was less consistent. People do as I understand it still use them today. With todays tighter tolerances inside engines,I want at least 3 micron filtering ABSOLUTE not nominal(average) as most filter today are rated at 20microns nominal.
Anyway,oil does not wear out per sey but Class III grade base stock does shear and you loss some of the lube molecules due to the shear factor and some of the molecules are to big to lube and some are to little to provide quality lubrication. the majority of of the oil does not deteriorate and the big issue, in general, is the additive package.
As far as taking a chance on a toilet paper filter,it would not hurt anything set up as a bypass system but could plug, if it was the only filter on the engine oil system.
All said, bypass oil filtering systems are used for two or so main reasons,extended oil change cycles or for reduced engine wear are the two main reasons, as I understand it.
Given the incredible durability of modern engines, the high efficiency of any quality off-the shelf oil filters, and the obvious merits of synthetic oil, I really don't see the point of messing with toilet paper in any shape, size or....pattern!
"Although this is a very unique application of enzyme technology, we encounter various enzymes in our everyday lives. For example, enzymes in laundry detergents break down dirt and stains so that they may be easily washed away, even in cold water. Enzymes in the human digestive system break down food into components that are easily used by the body to produce energy. Functioning as biocatalysts, enzymes increase and control the rate of chemical reactions. Star Tron® uses highly specialized enzymes to modify how gasoline and diesel fuel burns, the end result being more complete and uniform combustion."
I wonder if, given enough time, Startron could create life on other planets?
Comments
Zddplus sounds like a very specialized product for older cars not having cat converters.
One of the SAE articles they quoted was printed in 1977, which was back when cat converters were in their infancy.
The site warns about not using Zddplus in cars with cat converters:
Why should ZDDPlus™ not be used in OBD [On Board Diagnostic] cars?
The key ingredient of ZDDPlus™ is ZDDP, which has been known to shorten catalytic converter life. Manufacturers have been redesigning engines for the last decade to minimize the need for ZDDP, in order to lower emission levels. One method is switching over to roller rockers.
Anyway, you want peace of mind? You can just use SJ or SL, plus CH-4, type oils. That's all you'll ever need IMO.
Here's a nice list I found:
1. Castrol RX Super 15w40
2. Chevron Delo 400 15w40
3. Mobil Delvac 1300 Super 15w40
4. Pennzoil Long-Life 15w40
5. Quaker State 4X4 Synthetic Blend 15w40
6. Shell Rotella-T 15w40
7. SuperTech 2000 (WalMart) 15w40
8. Valvoline All Fleet 15w40
9. Castrol Syntec Blend Truck and 4X4 15w40
I believe ZDDPlus has everything in it they claim it has, so it is not being misrepresented as per content (which is what their "lab tests" are saying---not that it "works").
But it looks to me, from what I've been reading, that ZDDPlus is a cure in search of a problem.
I don't have to prove that ZDDPlus prevents flat tappet wear---THEY have to prove that modern oils cause it --- and they haven't. Their ads are full of "argument by assertion", which claims that lots of flat tappet engines are showing wear, but wear is the evidence?
NADA. I'm ready to see it, bring it on. I want bench-tested vintage engines, side by side, newly rebuilt, 10 with regular modern oil, 10 with ZDDPlus, run 'em for 50000 miles and show me.
The oil is Chevron 5w30 (I do not know AP rating but assume it's match for the Turbo engine as Subaru recommended it). Only additive is ASL Camguard.
Happily, the oil had little soot and no water/gas contamination.
I did the analysis because some folks have had major XT engine failure around this mileage - this engine seems ok.
Most of us know the additives,for all intent will not get you much and if they did then why use oil,Put in one can STP,Prolong,Z-Max, Teflon junk?,one can of whatever Wal-Mart has on the Red tag close out,and just a touch of Marvel mystery oil,Weld her shut and Drive anyway you want,it just won't wear out or break!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!- - !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Always research,get the facts,then look for double blind tests,and when you find them,see what Governmental agency recommends them and you just might have something there! Good luck Guys with additives, Mike C
There was one recall early in the '09 model year, then various reports on Subaru forums.
Seemed prudent to check the oil at least once just to be sure. :-)
However, its maker seems to be expanding to chain stores such as Walmart, and the info with the product also claims power increase of 10% and fuel economy improvements of 16%.
Their claim is enzymes help improve combustion efficiency and better blending of E-10 and H2O within the fuel tank.
The site has many of the usual testimonials, some bordering on science fiction, others sounding reasonable. The editorial articles sounded reasonable but offered no hard comparisons (none of "we put STP in tank A and Star Tron in Tank B and....").
Have any folks here heard of this stuff?
Around 1980 people were taping these to their fuel lines and they would swear it made a noticible improvement in fuel mileage.
Did those also work for arthritis is worn on the arm?
2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,
I didn't buy it at the time but a lot of other people did.
Or the second fallback position, which is gutsy but risky "you didn't believe in it".
Whether that's useful enzymes or recycled cow flop is anyone's guess but the ST chemist, and he ain't talkin'.
A letter to the ST manufacturer requesting hard data has gone unanswered. I've sent a similar request to the distributor.
That's a lot different from the maker of another additive I've had good luck with, with actual data behind it. It's been discussed and dismissed here so no point in bringing it up again.
BTW, Marvel Mystery Oil is mostly Naphtha with wintergreen fragrance. And no, I don't use it
I can personally testify that I have NEVER been hit by an asteroid while using this product.
And no, I have not tried walking out without the cookie---are you crazy? I'd risk getting killed.
"Well...er....sure my mileage seems to have gone up...I'm no sucker, after all!" **
** The human mind is a tricky thing---it tends to validate that which we need it to validate, and seems to blithely ignore any evidence to the contrary.
Dr. Intern: " Cured her hiccups didn't it?"
You better put a blackberry in your pocket to in case you get shot at.
blackberry
2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,
So what's the newest, hottest snake oil on the market now? The hydrogen generators seem to have bubbled their last bit of gas. Are they still selling Turbonators?
I'm sure when gasoline prices spike again, they'll be crawlin' out of the woodwork.
I noticed a business card stuck into the corner of the pump top advertising Shell has. It was advertising a gasoline additive. It had been sealed in plastic on both sides to protect it from the weather.
I guess a gas station would be a good place to advertise using the Shell company space. It's sort of like putting your ad on Edmunds.
I dropped the business card in the trash and checked the adjacent pumps and didn't find one there.
2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,
Anyone remember them?
They wherre a chrome cannister that mounted under the hood. The used a roll of toliet paper for the filter.
Lincoln, Packard, Cadillac, & Chrysler owners of course used the two ply paper.
In business since 1962 and still cooking.
I remember now they claimed (and may still claim) that with a Frantz filter you never had to ever change your oil. Just the toilet paper.
I heard a story about someone who installed one on a VW and it dropped the oil pressure so much it ruined the engine. Don't know it that was true.
Something tells me they don't sell many of these now.
They claimed that "oil never wears out". Not a chance I wanted to take.
I kept the toilet paper in the bathroom.
Oil doesn't, but the additives in it do wear out. Also the oil collects contaminants that are't evaporated and removed by the PCV system.
2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,
As if that one or two oil change receipts in your glove box each year is really going to kill the driver of a $30,000 car.
GEEZ, what logic! :sick:
"You can save $9 a year by filtering your used dish water through a loaf of bread!"
Anyway,oil does not wear out per sey but Class III grade base stock does shear and you loss some of the lube molecules due to the shear factor and some of the molecules are to big to lube and some are to little to provide quality lubrication. the majority of of the oil does not deteriorate and the big issue, in general, is the additive package.
As far as taking a chance on a toilet paper filter,it would not hurt anything set up as a bypass system but could plug, if it was the only filter on the engine oil system.
All said, bypass oil filtering systems are used for two or so main reasons,extended oil change cycles or for reduced engine wear are the two main reasons, as I understand it.
That's why I was very surprised to see these are still being sold.
Where would you mount one in a modern crowded engine bay?
To borrow a phrase from Mythbusters --- BUSTED. :lemon:
"Although this is a very unique application of enzyme technology, we encounter various enzymes in our everyday lives. For example, enzymes in laundry detergents break down dirt and stains so that they may be easily washed away, even in cold water. Enzymes in the human digestive system break down food into components that are easily used by the body to produce energy. Functioning as biocatalysts, enzymes increase and control the rate of chemical reactions. Star Tron® uses highly specialized enzymes to modify how gasoline and diesel fuel burns, the end result being more complete and uniform combustion."
I wonder if, given enough time, Startron could create life on other planets?