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Fuel and Oil Additives

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Comments

  • jipsterjipster Member Posts: 6,296
    Flushing can introduce all sorts of problems...

    What I have read is that studies show that a car who's trans. fluid has not been flushed or serviced regularly, should not be flushed when it is higher mileage.(i.e 80k, 100k, 120k and up) Flushing a high mileage vehicle can lead to the failure that you described. My van was flushed at 25k. The pan was dropped and filter cleaned,new gasket, then flushed.

    Synthetic ATF was not OEM in my Mazda. It did not smell burnt, just losing the pink color.. it had a brownish/pink tint. I have read here on Edmunds, and elsewhere, that ATF becoming darker is not indicative of the fluid going bad. But, the transmission seems to be the achilles heel of many car manufacturers... thus my better safe than sorry comment.
    2021 Honda Passport EX-L, 2020 Honda Accord EX-L, 2011 Hyundai Veracruz, 2010 Mercury Milan Premiere.
  • jipsterjipster Member Posts: 6,296
    I wouldn't agree that it is "poor fluid"

    Yes, that is what I was trying to say initially. That heat is the primary cause of transmission failures.... which in turn affects the fluid break down(burning)... which leads to the failure. Right?

    You mention extra cooling, but wouldn't early and frequent ATF changes accomplish the same goal? My ATF was starting to turn a bit brown, i.e heat, being cooked... thought it would be good preventative maintenance to change it.
    2021 Honda Passport EX-L, 2020 Honda Accord EX-L, 2011 Hyundai Veracruz, 2010 Mercury Milan Premiere.
  • shiposhipo Member Posts: 9,148
    "You mention extra cooling, but wouldn't early and frequent ATF changes accomplish the same goal?"

    No, because there are heat sensitive parts inside the transmission that can be weakened by high heat. True, replacing the fluid will remove damaged fluid, but the parts are still in there.

    Best Regards,
    Shipo
  • ex_tdierex_tdier Member Posts: 277
    In response to imidazol97, I did not say at any time that the A/C was adequate at all. In fact, the A/C is poor all the time. It's a design flaw and has been tackled to death on Edmunds and Mazda boards. Without the A/C recirc button on, one would get virtually no cooling. In addition, I doubt there is a liability with the gases you inhale with the recirc button on, in fact, it likely will prevent further gasses from entering your cabin like gasoline and diesel exhaust from motorists. I drive with the recirc and and A/C on even in the winter because the roads are so bad with car exhaust and diesel fumes.

    My mazda dealer and virtually all Westcoast dealers that I have been too recommend changing/flushing the brake fluid, tranny fluid, and coolant every 2 years. They claim to powerflush, hence the high cost but at a Honda dealer years ago I saw they just drained the fluid...a money grab I think. And yes, my car takes DOT3. And the engine is a DOHC.

    And to show how quirky or screwed up the Mazda3 manual is, it states that in all regions (OUTSIDE of NORTH AMERICA) one should replace the brake fluid every 2 years and engine coolant every 2 years but in North America, no mention of brake fluid change but Coolant change at 4 years and 2 years afterthat. Only inspect the tranny coolant for both inside NOrth America and outside.

    So, bottom line is that one doesn't know what to follow. To much contradicting info. And one can forget about calling the Manufacturer's 1-800 number call centre. They all lack customer service skills and are minimum wage earners who aren't trained and only quote the manual verbatim. It's like talking to a darn robot.
  • Mr_ShiftrightMr_Shiftright Member Posts: 64,481
    I don't think just changing the fluid mitigates the heat problem, because heat damages parts like seals and if severe enough, bearings, bushings,etc. Changing the fluid is treating the symptom IMO, not the disease.
  • ex_tdierex_tdier Member Posts: 277
    I don't think I seen an aftermarket tranny cooler for the Mazda3 anywhere.
  • Mr_ShiftrightMr_Shiftright Member Posts: 64,481
    I'm sure there are generic kits that can be fitted with various "quick mount" kits. Trans coolers aren't all that complex---it's more about fitting them properly..which might take a bit of fiddling.
  • texasestexases Member Posts: 11,107
    Flushing is an outright racket. As Shipo said, flushing, as opposed to draining and filling, can introduce/mobilize dirt in many systems. Never flush the brake system, the ABS could be damaged. Just because the dealer recommends it does not make it right. Only the manual (the factory manual, not the 'maintenance manual' some dealers supply) should govern maintenance. There was a recent 60 Minutes type of show dealing with CA lube shops selling unneeded service that they didn't do. There is no confusion. If it's not recommended maintenance in your owners manual, you don't need it. Do it if it makes you feel better, but that's it.
  • Mr_ShiftrightMr_Shiftright Member Posts: 64,481
    I'm always worried about getting gunk the valve body...those units are so sensitive to dirt. One little speck and you got trouble....
  • texasestexases Member Posts: 11,107
    Here are two good write-ups on the flushing rip-off

    FlushingOfAmerica1

    FlushignOfAmerica2
  • Mr_ShiftrightMr_Shiftright Member Posts: 64,481
    Good articles! Thanks for posting them.
  • sky23213sky23213 Member Posts: 300
    The Honda dealer told me there's no drain pan on my CR-V, so they could only do a flush. I really preferred just a drain for the very reasons most of the previous posters do. Is there such a thing as "no drain pan on CR-V"?
  • user777user777 Member Posts: 3,341
    there should be a drain plug. you'd want to drain, replace, go through all the gears while driving 3 times.
  • texasestexases Member Posts: 11,107
    I've not seen how Hondas are set up, but many cars don't have a drain plug on their AT. I would remove the whole pan and replace the gasket, not a big deal. I do wonder if some of the AT 'flushes' are really that - the one I saw at the Kwik lube seemed to use the engine to pump out the old oil while it fed in the new oil at the connection to the cooler. More just a replacement than a flush, and not likely to cause a problem, it would seem.
  • Mr_ShiftrightMr_Shiftright Member Posts: 64,481
    That sounds tricky. How do they monitor the amount of oil going in/coming out? What if the trans is running dry or low at some point? There must be some metering in there somewhere.
  • texasestexases Member Posts: 11,107
    Good question, I don't know, maybe it's some in = out setup :confuse:
  • jipsterjipster Member Posts: 6,296
    The writer of those articles encourages the use of flushes and fluid changes, but the rip-off is on the flushes being oversold.... which I agree with. Valvoline Instant Oil change will try to sell you every flush known to man... same with dealerships. One dealership wanted $220 for a trans. fluid flush.

    The writer is also against brake fluid changes as they aren't recommended in owners manuals. Only use them with the necessary brake work. Most posters here advocate draining or flushing brake fluid every two years.
    2021 Honda Passport EX-L, 2020 Honda Accord EX-L, 2011 Hyundai Veracruz, 2010 Mercury Milan Premiere.
  • texasestexases Member Posts: 11,107
    Replacing the brake fluid in the reservoir is fine, something I do - it's cheap and easy. I have a problem with any kind of flushing, especially for the $$ involved. I imagine most of the system fluid is in the reservoir, so changing that out does most of what a complete replacement would yield.
  • imidazol97imidazol97 Member Posts: 27,675
    I do the bleeding the brake at each of the wheel cylinders every couple of years. I replace the reservoir volume first with clear, fresh fluid and then do each wheel. I usually do it when I'm rotating my wheels and I already have the car jacked up and the wheels off. I believe the fluid picks up moisture around the seals at the wheel cylinder according to things I've read.

    2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,

  • shiposhipo Member Posts: 9,148
    "The writer is also against brake fluid changes as they aren't recommended in owners manuals. Only use them with the necessary brake work. Most posters here advocate draining or flushing brake fluid every two years."

    Please keep in mind that most cars sold here in North America use DOT 3 brake fluid from the factory. As DOT 3 isn't as pure as DOT 4, it is less hygroscopic than DOT 4. The flip side of that is of course that DOT 4 is less compressible than DOT 3 (when new), and as such will present a firmer brake pedal. As a general rule, ALL cars sold with DOT 4 from the factory recommend a bi-annual fluid change (i.e. BMW, Audi, Porsche…).

    Years ago I made the mistake of allowing one of my DOT 3 equipped cars to go six years without doing a full fluid replacement. When I finally did, what came out was a thick, rusty looking mixture that was anything but brake fluid. Yuk. Just to be on the safe side, I pulled apart one of the rear wheel cylinders and was stunned to see how much corrosion was inside there. In the end I had to replace both front calipers and both rear wheel cylinders due to the corrosion. Lesson learned.

    True, DOT 3 may not need to be replaced every two years, but four years is certainly advisable, and going six is a recipe for a complete brake system failure. Since the time when I went six years, I've simply replaced the fluid in all of my cars at the two year mark, regardless of what fluid came with it, and I use DOT 4 exclusively.

    Best Regards,
    Shipo
  • shiposhipo Member Posts: 9,148
    "Replacing the brake fluid in the reservoir is fine, something I do - it's cheap and easy. I have a problem with any kind of flushing, especially for the $$ involved. I imagine most of the system fluid is in the reservoir, so changing that out does most of what a complete replacement would yield."

    The problem with what you are doing is that water is heavier than pure brake, and as such sinks to the lowest area of the braking system. Said another way, if there's water in your system (highly likely unless you've just replaced it), it is pooled inside of your brake calipers and wheel cylinders, right where it can do the most damage (i.e. cause corrosion and boil under extreme braking).

    Many DOT 4 fluid makers sell their fluid with different color dyes so that as you pump it through, you can easily see when you've fully pushed out the old fluid.

    http://www.hrpworld.com/index.cfm?form_prod_id=92,49,363_3148&action=product
    http://www.hrpworld.com/index.cfm?form_prod_id=92,49,363_3149&action=product

    Best Regards,
    Shipo
  • texasestexases Member Posts: 11,107
    OK - I get everything except the 'water is heavier'. Non-silicone brake fluid is hygroscopic, so the water dissolves in the fluid and mixes as the fluid moved from the reservoir to the calipers and back again as the brakes are applied. Yes, the water can definitely cause corrosion, warranting replacement.
  • shiposhipo Member Posts: 9,148
    Not a chemical engineer here, however, as I understand it, the water mixes with the glycol based brake fluids, but not evenly and as such it finds the lowest part of the braking system to pool. Bleed your brakes and look at what comes out and you'll see what I mean (the longer it's been since you bled them, the worse your fluid will look coming out of the bleed orifices).

    Maybe we have a CE around here to explain this phenomena. ;)

    Best Regards,
    Shipo
  • imidazol97imidazol97 Member Posts: 27,675
    The experience I've had with fluid is that the fluid nearest the wheel cylinders had absorbed water and interacted with contaminants that make their way past the dust seals and the rubber piston seals and caused goop and corrosion at the wheel cylinders. This is my experience with the drum brake portions of systems.

    The time or two I've disassembled calipers they were much cleaner. I give that to a better dust seal system and a different type of seal for the piston.

    The worst-looking stuff always is the first to come out. I have not looked up the relative density of water/brake fluid vs "clean" brake fluid nor have I looked up information about the diffusion of the water molecules through the fluid.

    Most of my experience has been many years ago with replacing rear brakes. I can't recall the last car I had to replace rear brakes on where I took apart the wheel cylinder. I'm at 150K on my LeSabre and its rear bands have lots of material left.

    Have brake fluids improve through the last couple of decades for the DOT 3 commonly used fluid? Have seal materials and the piston cups improved? Probably. But I still go with changing the brake fluid every couple of years, usually when I'm doing a wheel rotation myself at home.

    2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,

  • smokey75smokey75 Member Posts: 434
    "I'm not sure I necessarily agree. The new fully synthetic AT fluids are extremely good and have gone through LOTS of testing to validate their performance. That said, if I was doing lots of towing in hot weather climbing up into the mountains and back, sure, I'd change that tranny fluid, but normal driving? Hmmm, I wonder if Blackstone offers UATFA (Used ATF Analysis). "

    Blackstone does offer analysis on all fluids. Next time I change mine (including the differentials & transfer case) I plan on sending mine in for analysis out of curiosity. They're all Amsoil fluids.... I know don't get me started (or Shipo) on Amsoil.
  • smokey75smokey75 Member Posts: 434
    What is everybody's feeling on Top Tier Gasoline? In the past I always tried to use Chevron & since this was started I've tried to adhere to their list of retailers. I seem to remember reading that at one time some of the manufacturers had Chevron trucked in to the Detroit area (where it wasn't available) for their emissions testing but I'm not sure what the reason was or if there's any truth to this. Coincidentally, when Top Tier first started the only three that were on the list were QuickTrip, Chevron, & Conoco.
  • blaneblane Member Posts: 2,017
    I've used Bottom Tier gasoline in every one of my vehicles since the late 1950's. That is, I've consistantly purchased the least expensive fuel available, preferably the no-brandname stuff that comes from the same delivery tankers.

    I have never experienced any negative effects in driving my vehicles well over a million miles. Only the positive benefit to my wallet. No, I don't believe that if you advertise and hype something it makes it a better product.

    Save your money. Don't buy snake oil.
  • blaneblane Member Posts: 2,017
    It is interesting to see that the Top Tier link that you provided takes you to a website with absolutely no indication as to its origin or who is behind it. Hmmm... could it be some secretive oil industry lobby?
  • Mr_ShiftrightMr_Shiftright Member Posts: 64,481
    I've also used any cheap fuel I can find. My only hesitation is if the station looks like it's been recently attacked by terrorists.

    I've used cheapo gas in my Porsches and my brand new cars and my motorycles and have yet to have any "incident". As long as the engine isn't pinging, that's fine. Maybe once/twice a year I'll throw in some lethal form of fuel injector cleaner.
  • texasestexases Member Posts: 11,107
    I religiously use Top Tier - because it's at the cheapest dealer in the area (QT - they got 7-11 beat every way). I can't say I notice any difference. Also, I believe ExxonMobil, the largest retailer, it not top tier, and I have no problem using their gas.
  • texasestexases Member Posts: 11,107
    Maybe we have a CE around here to explain this phenomena.

    That would be me. What probably happens is that all the (heavy) dirt and rust settles down in the lowest position (the cylinders or calipers) and is the first to come out when they're bled. Water by itself won't discolor the brake fluid.
  • blaneblane Member Posts: 2,017
    Shifty,

    The vast majority of the stations here in the NY Metropolitan Area don't exactly look like they've been attacked by terrorists. However, I'm not certain that they aren't being run by some.
  • Mr_ShiftrightMr_Shiftright Member Posts: 64,481
    Why do terrorists always have the BEST gasoline? Somebody put it all in the desert....who knew? :P

    I don't mean to belittle having some caution when buying gas, but really, if the station is busy, the pumps are clean and the price is right...no harm done IMO.
  • user777user777 Member Posts: 3,341
    i'm not sure the no-namie's have the same additives applied. maybe i'm wrong.

    anyway, it's adviseable (isn't it)? to switch between brands so that you're not getting just one formulation of additive?
  • blaneblane Member Posts: 2,017
    Why should I care if the no-namie's have the same additives? If the no-name fuels power my vehicles PERFECTLY, as they have from at least a dozen no-name companies, with absolutely no concerns for the past half-century, why should I pay any more than I have to?

    Yes Samuel, as you say, it is adviseable to switch between brands. That way you can spread your money around to all of the major oil companies who have been raping America over the years.
  • smokey75smokey75 Member Posts: 434
    "It is interesting to see that the Top Tier link that you provided takes you to a website with absolutely no indication as to its origin or who is behind it. Hmmm... could it be some secretive oil industry lobby?"

    Personally I don't think it's an oil industry lobby or anything... it's not trying to sell more gas, but rather gas that meets their standard. According to the website BMW, GM, Honda, & Toyota developed this more stringent standard with higher levels of detergents. The Deposit Control section describes the specific standard. I do believe there are actually higher levels of detergents in the Top Tier fuels. As I said, when it started there were only 3 retailers. A few months after it started Shell was added to the list... the same time they reformulated their fuel additive package & started marketing it as V-Power. Here's a link from the Shell site that talks about it. I guess my question is rather the current federal detergent standards are adequate (cheap gas) or they really are lacking as these four manufacturers claim? What's your take Shipo?
  • ray80ray80 Member Posts: 1,655
    I don't think there are any absolute definitive answers to this. Along with what the car makers call top tier fuels I have read there are something like 20-30 different blends due to federal and individual states mandates for this and that additives. That would imply all fuels would meet minimum requirements for any one state, but some (perhaps top tier) would go beyond that level. Who knows
  • texasestexases Member Posts: 11,107
    I guess the only detergent standards I've heard of are the EPA and Top Tier. There are many other pollution-related standards regarding vapor pressure (summer vs. winter gas), and of course the various ethanol standards.
  • shiposhipo Member Posts: 9,148
    What's my take? My guess is that the leading manufacturers who aren't on the list couldn't be bothered to get themselves on said list. In other words, I suspect it is something of a marketing ploy.

    Curious about the whol Top-Tier thing, I sent a letter to ExxonMobil over two years ago on the subject, the response is posted at the following link (which points to a post in this very discussion, just 701 posts ago).

    shipo, "Fuel and Oil Additives" #316, 16 Mar 2005 9:06 am

    Best Regards,
    Shipo
  • texasestexases Member Posts: 11,107
    That's a great 'Exxon' reply. I've worked with them, and they will normally say 'the Exxon way is best', and they're typically right (technically, that is). They're not about to put one dollar into an industry group that is only catching up to what they are already doing.
  • imidazol97imidazol97 Member Posts: 27,675
    >Yes Samuel, as you say, it is adviseable to switch between brands. That way you can spread your money around to all of the major oil companies who have been raping America over the years.

    Where do you think the fuel that ends up at noname stations comes from? Does it come from the major distributors?

    2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,

  • texasestexases Member Posts: 11,107
    Yes, in any one area there are only a few suppliers of the base gas. The additive packages are then tuned for each retailer.
  • smokey75smokey75 Member Posts: 434
    That's interesting Shipo.... ok, I think I'm going to start using the cheapest fuel I can find... no more Chevron & Shell. But if I have problems I'll blame you guys.... :P
  • imidazol97imidazol97 Member Posts: 27,675
    >there are only a few suppliers of the base gas.

    That's right. The tank farms at the ends of the main pipeline or supply routes are holding the base fuel. When the tractor trailer driver picks up he picks up a pure gasoline or an ethanol blend and dumps it into the compartment on the semi then the packaged additives for that company and that grade of fuel are added.

    It's my opinion, and it's not got a link to prove it, that the noname brands may get leftover, aged, bottom of tank materials, and regular fuel base wholesaled to them. Sooooo, you don't know what you're getting. The additive package is not going to be an expensive mix formulated by the latest chemistry available, I know that, because they're cutting costs. Does your car need that special formula ultimate mix? Probably not. But I'd go back to regular brands once every 3 or 4 fillups as my personal choice in that case. I actually use name brand fuel 3 out of 4 times or more. They're the same price as noname when I'm in one area around the city.

    2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,

  • user777user777 Member Posts: 3,341
    this is what i suspect also. thanks for the support.

    i tend not to visit a no-namie station on a regular basis if i don't have to do so. i find the price diff extremely small, perhaps a few cents a gallon. 17 gal later, what am i saving? .30-1.00?

    imho, it's just not worth it. YMMV.
  • Mr_ShiftrightMr_Shiftright Member Posts: 64,481
    Okay but don't confuse correlation with causation. Your fan belt might break regardless of the gas you use :P
  • ex_tdierex_tdier Member Posts: 277
    I could be misinformed, but I was told that it's not just the detergents that are in the fuel that make the difference but the sulfur content as well. The cheaper fuels may have a higher sulphur content then the more expensive ones. In addition, too many people have subjective opinions that their particular make and model of car perform better or worse at a particular service station or with a particular brand/grade of fuel.
  • texasestexases Member Posts: 11,107
    That may be, but I'd be surprised. The sulfur content is determined by the process at the refinery, and there aren't multiple trains yielding different content base streams, as far as I know. Max. sulfur is also government-specified.
  • ex_tdierex_tdier Member Posts: 277
    That may be, but I'd be surprised. The sulfur content is determined by the process at the refinery, and there aren't multiple trains yielding different content base streams, as far as I know. Max. sulfur is also government-specified

    Having owned a diesel, I can confidently say that the manufactures have advised me that they have a minimum and maximum rage of sulfur content in their fuel. This can vary considerably and to me, it's quite shocking but still within the [wide] tolerance level of federal standards.
  • texasestexases Member Posts: 11,107
    Diesel's another animal. They're going from 500 ppm max to 15 ppm max with the latest reg. change. There may be a range for gas, but I don't think you'll find that cheap gas = high sulfur. It depends on the refinery that's supplying the area.
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