"What's the exact name of the oil additive? I want to contact the SWRI folks and see what they say about whether they tested the additive. I'm also curious about the claim they do much of the testing for NASA and US government."
Straight from www.swri.com "Benefiting government, industry & the public through innovative science & technology."
MML?? These are tests from the company that does testing on most oil companies, military and NASA! They are HUGE!
"The Engine Lubricants Research Department offers complete services for research, development, and evaluation of engine oils used in diesel and gasoline engines for factory fill and service fill requirements. Facilities to evaluate lubricants against the American Petroleum Institute (API) "SL," "SM, "CH-4," "CI-4," "CI-4 Plus," "CJ-4"and "C" lubricant categories, as well as the AAMA GF-3, GF-4, and the Cummins, Mack and John Deere requirements, are available. For European ACEA lubricant specifications, SwRI has installed dynamometer and bench test methods to evaluate service-fill lubricants for gasoline and diesel engines. The Institute's extensive facilities are available to evaluate gasoline and diesel engine lubricants with respect to engine sludge, oxidation, wear (camshaft lobes, camshaft followers, piston rings, piston liners, connecting rod bearings), oil consumption, piston deposits and fuel economy. New design engine components are also evaluated to determine acceptability with current day lubricants."
Here is an exerpt about their involvement with NASA.
"Since 1977, the SwRI has played a key role in NASA space physics and planetary missions. With expertise in planetary and space science, instrument design and fabrication, and data systems development, the Institute contributes significantly to understanding the solar system and to the study of solar system bodies, in situ and remotely."
Are you trying to make the point that they are a marketing company and do not manufacture the additives?
I do understand your concern with marketing companies that make claims. Most buy additives from companies and don't even know whats in them. Many have been sued by the FTC.
I have looked around they have the most certified testing than any additive business on the web.
"Obviously you did not read the test on line and its stupid people like you putting your 2 cents in as if you are an expert." ... "Before inserting your mouth again and making you look not only bad, but ignorant, go do some homework and then when you say something, someone might think of your comments as having some value. Its idiots like you that get on a forum and bog it down with garbage!"
ROTFLMAO, absolutely classic. Someone wants to fleece the public out of their hard earned money so they go and buy some Walmart oil, pour it into a different bottle, create a website full of fantastic unsubstantiated claims and then sits back and (hopefully) collects the money. Nice.
Then, when some folks challenge the veracity of the "claims", the purveyor of the miracle product gets upset and starts calling the folks who leveled the challenge "stupid" and "idiots". Nice.
So far at least, you have singularly failed to reference even a single piece of independently verifiable science that supports the wild claims from both you and that worthless web site. Until you do I dub thee a SPAMMER and a Con Artist.
If you want my most heart felt and humble apology, then please, provide some independently verifiable scientific proof that backs up all of the bilge water you're feeding us.
Thanks for the links. FWIW, I spent an easy ten minutes looking for them, however, they seem to be well hidden.
Now, to the heart of the matter. Are you here hawking an oil additive that hasn't been tested with oil more modern than the 1998 vintage Citgo SJ rated 10W-40 motor oil cited in the text? I ask because that single test is the only one that seems to have any independent verification. FWIW, it appears that these guys (Autoresearch Laboratories, Inc. that is) used to do lots of testing for lots of folks, or at least they said they did, until they declared bankruptcy in 2000 and took off with a half of a million dollars of client money that had been paid in advance for tests that were never performed. Not the most trust-worthy of testing outfits if you ask me.
Comments: 1) If anybody had suggested that I use Citgo 10W-40 in any car of mine in 1998 I would have laughed in their face. Said another way, I find the choice of that (sub-par) oil as the test base highly suspicious. Hell, you might just have well added some Mobil 1 of that era to the test oil; it probably would have "fortified" the Citgo stuff just as well. 2) My bet is that any top quality oil from 1998 would have performed equally as well as the fortified Citgo 10W-40 used in the test, if not better. 3) Last time I checked the calendar indicated that we are now nearly half way through 2007, nearly nine and a half years since that test. My bet is that even a current top shelf conventional oil such as Havoline would see zero or even negative benefit from additive ProTecta. 4) Taking item #3 a step further, if you were to pollute a good 2007 vintage synthetic oil (say Mobil 1 0W-40) with that stuff, my bet is that you'd actually see worse results with the "Fortified" oil than you would with the 100% Mobil 1.
Sorry to say, you're going to have to try harder and provide links to far more recent scientific data to convince me that this stuff is anything more than a Snake-Oil get-rich scheme.
ASTM KA24E VALVE TRAIN WEAR TEST was ran with Pennzoil which was the leading motor oil at that time.
"My bet is that you'd actually see worse results with the "Fortified" oil than you would with the 100% Mobil 1."
If you look at a more recent ASTM test by SWRI ProTecta Synthetic Engine Treatment: ASTM-D-2783 you will find how well Mobil 1® Tri-Synthetic motor oil stands up against extreme pressure conditions.
Do engines have extreme pressure? Yes
According to the American Petroleum Institute (API) or the major oil companies spokesman, which is published in their Motor Oil Guide, they claim the following: “Extreme pressure conditions can develop between heavily loaded parts from lack of lubrication, inadequate clearance, extreme heat, and sometimes as a result of using the wrong type or grade of lubricant for the operating conditions of the engine. In modern engines the valve train with its cams, valve lifters, push rods, valve stem tips, and parts of the rocker arms operate under extreme pressure because they carry heavy loads on very small contact areas. Unit loading, which may be as high as 200,000 pounds per square inch, is many times greater than the loads on the connecting rod bearings or on the piston pins.” Because of higher unit loading, higher engine speeds, and the smaller size of certain parts, modern engines have many components that operate under boundary or extreme pressure conditions much of the time”.
Does this mean Mobil 1 is a bad oil? no Does it mean it can be improved in extreme pressure areas? yes, which leads to less wear and extended equipment life.
If Pennzoil could be improved then, it can be improved now. Why do you think oil companies have additive divisions?
Why aren’t the oil companies involved in the additive market? Truth is they are the leaders in the development of aftermarket oil additives. Many of the additives used in the aftermarket industry are actually purchased from the oil companies. The oil companies, with their big budgets, can provide hundreds of thousands of dollars of testing to validate additive performance. The public is unaware of this though as most all oil companies run their additive divisions as separate companies under their corporate umbrella. They include Infineum for Exxon/Mobil, Oronite for Chevron/Texaco and then there is Ethyl who is well known for its tetraethyl lead previously found in all gasoline. Shell has their own as does Castrol. Quaker State owned Slick 50 additive company, and I cannot see them buying this company if the product would not have any benefit as the liability would be too great if the products would not perform. Chevron sells Techron today an aftermarket gasoline treatment, Valvoline has marketed aftermarket additives as well as others including the additive leader Lubrizol. One must realize the following: The oil companies make products to meet the OEM’s requirements not theirs. You could call an oil company up right now and ask if oil could be made better and your response would be similar to this: We have over 150 chemists in this building alone and if motor oil could be made better, we would be the ones to do it. On the other hand we could call their additive division and say we want a heavy duty performing oil that would out perform the current specification and they could fax you a product with hundreds of thousands of dollars of testing documentation.
Dude, give it a rest. All you've continued to do is make lots of noise and not answer the challenge layed before you.
Please, do us all a favor and take your snake-oil pitch over to http://www.bobistheoilguy.com. I'm sure you'll find lots of suckers over there who'll line up for this latest miracle lube, and pay top dollar for it too. :P
i saw that on bitog somewhere..he says dont add anyting to your oil, it can screw up the additive package already in the oil because they are not compatible...no major auto manufacturer reccomends additives...he also says Ford works closely with the oil companies, esp Mobil, to develop oils...i have a 07 focus with M1 5-20 and there is no way i would add anything to that oil, except oil...i used to use additives too, but no more...Mobil says add nothing to your oil either
What kind of guarantee would I get from this outfit, if I were to use the additive in a specialized oil like VW 505.01? Volkswagen states that using any oil not certified 505.01 in their TDI diesel engines WILL void the warranty.
You have to be a little skeptical of any Multi-Level Marketing scheme to sell anything, whether it is Amway or ZZ Top records. I watched my mom and dad waste a fortune trying to get rich on just such pyramids. They are a poor excuse for marketing good products. Good products end up in reputable stores like Costco. Places that actually stand behind what they sell. MLMs need to be closely scrutinized to determine if they are a pyramid or a Ponzi scheme. When all the data you posted came from the MLM site it should be a flag to BEWARE! Call me an idiot, I am with shipo on this one.
Oils have the best additive packages the manufacturers can put together. They don't need anything else added. I agree that adding may upset the efficacy of the additives already present.
Although it may make the (male) ego feel good to pick up the bottle at Advanced Auto and put it into the sump of the car, he'd be better off just putting that money into making sure the oil changes are on time or early for the use and conditions that motor and its oil have experienced.
These additives are all transfer schemes to move money from your wallet to their company's bank accounts.
Yeah, but it's fun to watch shipo take all their theories apart Thanks, shipo! If any of these guys had made the effort to read through the discussions from the beginning, they'd get a pretty good idea of the professional background of shipo and the other members who have given plenty of good advise, and that would help them to get a good clue what would fly here and what not. But then, we would have missed all that fun. As you said, every now and then an occasional dude pops in to make a claim. I never associated it with the rise of gas prices, but it makes sense - better breeding ground. The fuel additives guys were more entertaining though
The worst that could happen to these people is have their engines ruined. My mother had her kidneys destroyed by a mineral water out of Arizona. It was a MLM, Ponzi scheme. She only lived a couple years past that. Why do folks believe there is an easy way to get rich?
You remember what Carl Sagan said? "Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence".
If someone is claiming a fantastic jump in fuel mileage from an additive (basically, this would be a miraculous invention of earth-shattering proportions for the global economy), then the evidence has to be quite overwhelming. For the claim that a bomb can be made by splitting the atom, the test in New Mexico really clinched it for me :P Penicillin? Well, you take a shot and the infection goes away, just about every time.Synthetic oil? Impressive data, in the lab and the field---and the claims made for it are not hyperbolic by any means.
so what I'd require is a fleet test with say 50 identical cars....25 with the additive, 25 without...they are run for 10,000 miles in each group, all switching drivers...the average fuel mileages are tallied. IF there is a substantial difference in the two fleets, we take the additive out of the original 25 and put it in the other 25 (and vice-versa), then retabulate.
If you can do that, and show me mileage increases both times, I'm convinced.
But some obscure bearing test on a lawnmower done in a garage in Cleveland....no, that's not good enough for the extraordinary claim.
Most people after they have spent a hundred bucks on a gallon of STUFF that is supposed to improve mileage, will convince themselves they were not duped. Then of course they try to get others to spend a hundred bucks on a gallon so they recoup some of their loss. All the time being worked into an Amway frenzy with pictures of mansions overlooking the ocean just 10 more gallons away. If Costco sells it, I will give it a try. If it fails I take it back and get a refund with no questions asked.
Given how radically my own gas mileage changes just by the way I move my right foot, I wouldn't even trust my OWN experience if I bought the stuff for a short term test.
The human being's capacity for self-delusion seems bottomless. It might quite possibly be wired into us for survival, ironically. If cave men were too realistic they might have given up---LOL!
"Gee, I've got 28 years of a cold wet frightening existence to look forward to?"
Ditto with "nostalgia"....."gee, those '53 Nashes were great handling cars!"
i've never witnessed such a large change in mileage as I've been experiencing in my accord. usually my driving habits can change my mileage 1 mpg at most. But this car has given me between 25.5 and 29. That's HUGE!
Just time of year alone has shown me pretty big gaps on my normal commute. As recently as 2 months ago, when the temperature was mild and required no AC, I was getting between 27 and 28. Now that the AC is on and the humidity is up, its dipping to 26, which is where I was in the middle of winter, too.
'11 GMC Sierra 1500; '98 Alfa 156 2.0TS; '08 Maser QP; '67 Coronet R/T; '13 Fiat 500c; '20 S90 T6; '22 MB Sprinter 2500 4x4 diesel; '97 Suzuki R Wagon; '96 Opel Astra; '11 Mini Cooper S
What I remember about the Nash (Ambassador) was the fold flat front seats. Made like a queen sized bed. Great for the drive-in theater. I don't think it was a real screamer.
A mechanic friend of a friend said NOT to add fuel additives to your tank as long as you use decent fuel; otherwise, your intake gets clogged up. Ever since my Mazda3 had it's intake cleaned at 10,000 MILES I have only filled up at Chevron where they use Techron. I have started using Redline fuel additives and it's no name brand from Canadian Tire.
I dare say that fuel additives of any type are a waste of money. If you want the definitive word for your car, check your Owner's Manual, the engineers that designed your car know what's best for it, far more so than a local mechanic.
FWIW, due to a coolant leak in a head gasket, I just pulled down the top end of one of our engines. In spite of nearly 150,000 miles of EGR buildup inside of the intake system, the section of the induction ports that are down stream of the fuel injectors were glittering and shiny. Those spotlessly clean sections of the intake system were clean simply because of the standard additives found in modern fuel.
If you're using only Chevron with their great additives, why put in anything else? Techron is available in bottles for those of us not in Chevron's area to add the package and clean up the fuel system... The Techron is considered the best additive by some. I've used it...
dare say that fuel additives of any type are a waste of money. If you want the definitive word for your car, check your Owner's Manual, the engineers that designed your car know what's best for it, far more so than a local mechanic.
FWIW, due to a coolant leak in a head gasket, I just pulled down the top end of one of our engines. In spite of nearly 150,000 miles of EGR buildup inside of the intake system, the section of the induction ports that are down stream of the fuel injectors were glittering and shiny. Those spotlessly clean sections of the intake system were clean simply because of the standard additives found in modern fuel
Unfortunately, I can't really go with what the owners manual says. All the manufacturers say don't do it. They always have. And when your intake gets all gunked up, where do they want you to go? Back to the dealer for an expensive cleaning. Besides, my owners manual says to only add 5W20 motor oil and says not to use the recirc button for the A/C either.
As far as only using Chevron, well, I try to use it as often as possible. I am from Canada and our gas prices are the most expensive in North America and I often head to the US border towns or US Costco to fill up so, I don't always have the luxury of going to Chevron. I just dont want to be stuck with a dirty intake in about 2 years but I also don't want to contribute to the gunking either.
"Unfortunately, I can't really go with what the owners manual says. All the manufacturers say don't do it."
Not technically correct. For a while during the mid 1990s BMW recommended Techron, however, most if not all fuels available here in North America these days have the necessary cleaning capabilities already built in.
"And when your intake gets all gunked up, where do they want you to go? Back to the dealer for an expensive cleaning."
What does your intake system have to do with fuel additives? Like it or not, only that last inch or so of the typical intake system gets cleaned by your fuel, upstream of that..., nothing. If you are spending money on additives under the impression that they're going to clean your intake system, sorry dude, not happn'in.
"Besides, my owners manual says to only add 5W20 motor oil..."
And your point is? Like it or not, there is plenty of scientific evidence to support the notion that modern 5W-20 and 0W-20 oils are quite capable of protecting engines for far longer than the body is likely to last.
"...and says not to use the recirc button for the A/C either."
That sounds odd. Between cars bought or leased by my business as well as those owned by my wife and me, I have never seen a single Owner's Manual that recommended against using the "Recirc" button. I'd be curious to hear the exact language that they used in that recommendation, would you please post it.
"As far as only using Chevron, well, I try to use it as often as possible. I am from Canada and our gas prices are the most expensive in North America and I often head to the US border towns or US Costco to fill up so, I don't always have the luxury of going to Chevron. I just don't want to be stuck with a dirty intake in about 2 years but I also don't want to contribute to the gunking either."
Once again, your intake isn't likely to be one bit cleaner after two years of 100% Chevron as opposed to two years of any other fuel you find available.
Interesting info Shipo. I had an 84 Chrysler Mini Van, 1989 Civic, 1999, Malibu, 2002 VW TDI, and now a 2005 Mazda3. All of which advised against using additives. None of the manufacturers said that one MUST use a particular grade of oil, only "suggested" it. In fact, all of them made recommendations on which grades to use if the recommended is not available. My Mazda dealer said it's ok to use 5W30 but the owners manual says, one must 5W20, again, contradiction.
I was told many many times by different people and mechanics that using a fuel additive and/or good gasoline will help preventing clogging up the intake.
This is what my owners manual says about the Recirc button: Outside/Recirculated Air Position
Use the outside air position in normal conditions. The recirculated air position should be used only when driving on dusty roads or for quick cooling of the interior.
BTW, the A/C in this year and model of car is really bad.
i think you'll find in hot humid conditions with it raining outside, or specially in a downpour, the use of outside air with the AC on will reduce window fogging.
I believe part of the idea to NOT use recirc to much is due the drying of the air by A/C system, it can literaly dry your eyeballs out when used for a long period of time. Back on topic (don't know if its been mentioned before), use of 'top tier' fuels may help eliminate need for any type of additional additive.
"I was told many many times by different people and mechanics that using a fuel additive and/or good gasoline will help preventing clogging up the intake."
Think about this, the air goes through an air filter, then say a foot or two downstream the intake air goes past the throttle butterfly (except on some late model BMWs that use the valves as the throttle), then past a sensor or two to measure the air density. It then (optionally depending on engine design, smog layout and engine temperature) has some exhaust gas mixed into the intake mixture as well as some oily blow by gasses from the PVC system. This concoction then oozes along the intake plenum/manifold for anywhere from a few inches to as much as a foot or two until immediately before it gets to the intake valves (except on some new VW/Audi engines that use direct injection), which is where the fuel gets mixed with the inbound air.
From the point where the fuel gets mixed with the air and down to the valves is where your intake system is going to be pristine, above that the exhaust gases and blow by gases are going to muck up your intake manifold. And since no fuel (and what ever additives are in it or what you've added to it) is present until that point, there is nothing to prevent said "mucking" of the surfaces above it.
Like I mentioned earlier, I just pulled the top end of one of our engines (a 1998 3.8 liter Dodge Minivan by the way) down that had nearly 150,000 miles on it. The intake plenum and manifold were coated with a layer of varnish that was fairly hard (I could nick it with my finger nail, barely) and resistant to cleaning, and probably a sixty-fourth of an inch thick. What did I do about it? Not a damn thing.
As far as what mechanics have told you about fuel additives, ummm, pardon my skepticism, but I have yet to meet a single "mechanic" that was an automotive engineer specializing on the induction systems of Intermittent Combustion engines. You? The same thing applies to your Dealer's advice about the oil, are they engineers specializing on the lubrication of your engine? If your Owner's Manual specifies 5W-20, then by definition the only other oil that is inherently approved is 0W-20.
I declined every "fuel injector cleaning" so far. As long as my car a) runs well and b) posts the same gas mileage, I wonder too "what needs cleaning".
So far the only additives I've used is for diesel fuel conditioning and fuel stabilizer for my boat, both of which make perfect sense to me, for what they do.
...you were given "extra" dealer services... Yeah, it's getting ridiculous. My Mitsu dealer lists not one, but two of that kind. According to the glossy pamphlet they offer "Fuel Induction Service" for $127.95 where "Using specialized equipment and products, we quickly and effectively clean your throttle chamber, fuel injectors, intake manifold ports, intake valves and combustion chambers. Recommended every 60K.
The other is "Throttle Chamber Service" for $79.95 where "using specialized air intake cleaners, we quickly remove the sludge and varnish deposits that buildup in the throttle chamber". Recommended every 15K. :surprise:
SI-1's injector and valve detergent is a concentrated package of the most powerful high-temperature detergents available to clean gasoline fuel injectors or carburetors, intake valves and combustion chambers and can clean injectors to nearly 100% efficiency in one treatment. The cleansing effect on injector deposits can raise fuel economy approximately 12% or even greater, depending on the condition of the injectors.http://www.redlineoil.com/products_fueladditives.asp?subCategoryID=11
As far as what mechanics have told you about fuel additives, ummm, pardon my skepticism, but I have yet to meet a single "mechanic" that was an automotive engineer specializing on the induction systems of Intermittent Combustion engines. You? The same thing applies to your Dealer's advice about the oil, are they engineers specializing on the lubrication of your engine? If your Owner's Manual specifies 5W-20, then by definition the only other oil that is inherently approved is 0W-20.
Thanks for the info...btw, are you an engineer? I have been told that the Auto manufacturer mechanics receive factory training in their factory school and they do have vital information provided to them by their engineers. As far as oil goes, I think the only real way is to do an engine oil analysis.
And dealers will be quick to tell you that intake cleaning is required and in my case, it was done under warranty. So, Mazda must approve of it. There is so many different opinions out there, it's hard to pick and choose because everyone has their own convincing argument.
Yes, and I even worked for a vehicle manufacturer for a while, HOWEVER, I and NOT a Mechanical or Automotive engineer. That said, I got lots of chances to rub shoulders with the folks that did the actual designs (especially the forensic engineers, the guys that take a new engine (or other part), run it to absolute destruction, tear it apart and then figure out what went wrong) back in the day.
"I have been told that the Auto manufacturer mechanics receive factory training in their factory school and they do have vital information provided to them by their engineers."
While that is true as far as it goes, I've heard volumes of disinformation and outright lies come out of service departments to such an extent that I could write a very funny anecdotal book about some of the junk that I've been told.
"As far as oil goes, I think the only real way is to do an engine oil analysis."
That's a GREAT start.
"And dealers will be quick to tell you that intake cleaning is required and in my case, it was done under warranty. So, Mazda must approve of it."
I'm not sure how you get from point A to point B. True the procedure may have been done under warranty, however, who knows what the charge back was for.
"There is so many different opinions out there, it's hard to pick and choose because everyone has their own convincing argument."
Yupper, and that's why I always consult the Owner's Manual when in doubt.
"There is so many different opinions out there, it's hard to pick and choose because everyone has their own convincing argument."
Yupper, and that's why I always consult the Owner's Manual when in doubt
Indeed, but as you can see, my Owners manual is a little odd and Mazda is now Ford. If I adhered to the owners manual then it would be unbearably hot in my car in the summer by having my recirc button off. I would also be forced to return or deal with only the dealer that sold me my car for all maintainence, as recommended in the manual. The manual also makes no mention of replacing the tranny fluid or brake fluid or timing chain. So, I guess it would be to foolish to ever replace them.
Most cars have a lifetime fill of tranny fluid these days, and changing it most likely won't do much for you. Ditto the timing chain, it should be good for the life of the car. That leaves the brake fluid. Most high end manufacturers recommend every second year regardless of mileage, that said, Mazda probably uses Dot 3 fluid which has both a lower boiling point (not exactly a benefit) and a lower moisture absorbtion rate. I use Dot 4 and change every other year for all of my cars.
shipo, if you don't plan on owning the car long, then i'd tend to agree about the tranny fluid recommendation. but regardless of vehicle, i think AT fluid will degrade, and shift quality suffer past 60K. "lifetime" is the key here. if you are talking 80K, maybe i'd agree.
agree with you on brake fluid change.
now onto timing chain / belts, do you think recommendations from honda and toyota and the others that recommend replacement at near 100K, do you think they do so just to support their dealer networks?
"...but regardless of vehicle, i think AT fluid will degrade, and shift quality suffer past 60K. "lifetime" is the key here. if you are talking 80K, maybe i'd agree."
I'm not sure I necessarily agree. The new fully synthetic AT fluids are extremely good and have gone through LOTS of testing to validate their performance. That said, if I was doing lots of towing in hot weather climbing up into the mountains and back, sure, I'd change that tranny fluid, but normal driving? Hmmm, I wonder if Blackstone offers UATFA (Used ATF Analysis).
"now onto timing chain / belts, do you think recommendations from honda and toyota and the others that recommend replacement at near 100K, do you think they do so just to support their dealer networks? "
Lets separate the two. Timing belts SHOULD ALWAYS be replaced when the manufacturer says it should be replaced. Period, full stop, the end. Timing chains are a completely different matter, and I don't know of a single manufacturer that recommends chain replacement (not saying that there aren't a few out there...). In the case of Honda (who is now using a timing chain in the new Civic for instance), they do not recommend ever replacing the chain.
Looked at from a different perspective, over the years I've come across any number of engines with well over 300,000 miles on the clock that still had the original timing chain. That said, I've also come across a number of older GM engines that used a nylon toothed cam gear to keep the noise down, and I'd honestly be surprised if any of those turkeys ever made it to the 100,000 mile mark. :P
changing it (tranny fluid) most likely won't do much for you.
Why the high rate of transmission problems as compared to other mechanical issues? I've read the number one problem with trans failures is due to poor fluid.
The fluid in my Mazda MPV started to get a brown tint to it at 25k miles. So, it would seem to be getting dirty or picking up contaimenents. Even though my owners manual does not address a trans fluid change interval, I had it flushed. Cheap insurance as they say.
In one early post you said you used only Chevron gas which has a good additive and later you said you couldn't get there all the time and used a lot of other fuels.
If you're using a good brand about half the time, my opinion is you don't need a fuel additive. The Mazda dealer pushing it doesn't mean your car needs it. Call Mazda and ask them.
As for the recirculate button and being unbearably hot: your post said "under normal conditions" you don't need the recirculate on. If your car cannot handle the heat load with the current cooling capacity of the unit, it may have a problem in size or be undercharged or partially blocked in the evaporator or condenser. If you have to use recirculate in slow traffic that would be normal IMHO. You should be able to go along after 10-15 minutes of driving at 40 or more and the unit keep the car cool. My cars turn on the recirculate when in AC and the car sensors perceive high temps and then the units turn it back to normal flow after 5 minutes or so as the interior cools.
The disclaimer in the manual is to avoid being sued if someone is injured or dies due to an accumulation of exhaust gases using the recirculate.
Brake fluid is hygroscopic and absorbs humidity slowly. It should be changed by a skilled person.
Transmission fluid has additives which deteriorate with age and with doing their job. They should be refreshed by changing the part of the fluid that can be drained; and the filters need changed also.
Timing chains wear. A mechanic can assess the amount of wear. Changing is a prophylactic measure; you can wait for failure if you like.
As for additives I use only Techron in the bottle because my area is Chevron deprived. If I put it in after about a year of using more than half name brands and some large store brands (Kroger, Murphy (Walmart)), I can hear a difference after a few miles. Whether it's a change in octane due to the bottle contents or a change in efficiency of the injectors or a cleaning of the combustion chamber interiors, I can't assess. I have a knowledge of chemistry and know the feel of the motor. So I use it one bottle of fuel system cleaner about every 9 months. There is a Techron injector cleaner which I think is lower concentration of something. It's cheaper.
I've repeated some things after rereading your posts. Take what advice you choose from other posters and myself here. If it works, my charge doubles.
"Why the high rate of transmission problems as compared to other mechanical issues? I've read the number one problem with trans failures is due to poor fluid."
I cannot say that I've ever seen any statistcal evidence that suggests that cars that have a "lifetime fill" fail more often than automatic transmissions that recommend periodic fluid/filter replacements.
"The fluid in my Mazda MPV started to get a brown tint to it at 25k miles. So, it would seem to be getting dirty or picking up contaimenents. Even though my owners manual does not address a trans fluid change interval, I had it flushed."
You had it flushed or just had the fluid replaced? Flushing can introduce all sorts of problems and actually lead to a failure that you wouldn't otherwise have had. The conventional pan-drop filter replacement and fluid top-off is still the best method to use, when necessary. That said, one thing you should know is that many of the new synthetic ATFs now being used smell "burnt" right out of the bottle (or start smelling burnt shortly thereafter), and start getting dark after only a few tens of thousands of miles, however, that in no way is indicitive of how well they are still working.
"Timing chains wear. A mechanic can assess the amount of wear. Changing is a prophylactic measure; you can wait for failure if you like."
Sorry, I've got to part company with you on this one. Virtually every engine that I've ever torn down that had a timing chain (and metal gears) showed very little wear, even when the rest of the engine was toast. On cars with longer chain assemblies (i.e. SOHC and DOHC engines), chain can stretch be problematic, that said, most (if not all) manufacturers that use chains for OHC engines also include some form of a tensioner assembly so that the chain doesn't start getting noisy.
I suppose it's possible that some manufacturer somewhere dropped the ball and didn't design a particular engine's timing chain properly, however, I can't think of a single chain equipped engine built in the last twenty years that had a problem with the chains failing before the rest of the engine. You?
I haven't torn down and replaced timing chains. I had a failure on a Ford 351 motor long ago. The valve timing on my 93 3800 motor seemed to have developed a valve timing lag at 150,000 miles. But my wife made me trade in the car for a sparkly bright red one. A friend had problems with his daughter's Porsche convertible a few years ago.
I notice in a Bonneville discussion there are some replacements going on... I'll have to search there.
I wouldn't agree that it is "poor fluid" that causes the majority of transmission failures. I think it is HEAT, which in turn might break down the fluids. But heat is the primary transmission killer IMO, and this can be caused by a)towing, etc; b)poor driving skills c) bad engineering.
I'd be willing to bet that you can take any transmission that is notorious for early failure and give it extra cooling and that its life will be extended, with no other changes.
FWIW, I don't believe that the "poor fluid" comment was mine as I also believe that heat is the issue that causes both the fluid and the transmission internals to break down.
"I'd be willing to bet that you can take any transmission that is notorious for early failure and give it extra cooling and that its life will be extended, with no other changes."
I think that Chrysler kind of proved that point for you. They took their 4-Speed tranny that they've used in minivans for years and added an external tranny cooler inline between the radiator and the transmission. They also went from semi-synthetic tranny fluid to a fully synthetic fluid and now the they use a lifetime fill as opposed to their previous recommendation of a 30,000 mile pan drop.
Comments
Straight from www.swri.com "Benefiting government, industry & the public through innovative science & technology."
MML?? These are tests from the company that does testing on most oil companies, military and NASA! They are HUGE!
"The Engine Lubricants Research Department offers complete services for research, development, and evaluation of engine oils used in diesel and gasoline engines for factory fill and service fill requirements. Facilities to evaluate lubricants against the American Petroleum Institute (API) "SL," "SM, "CH-4," "CI-4," "CI-4 Plus," "CJ-4"and "C" lubricant categories, as well as the AAMA GF-3, GF-4, and the Cummins, Mack and John Deere requirements, are available. For European ACEA lubricant specifications, SwRI has installed dynamometer and bench test methods to evaluate service-fill lubricants for gasoline and diesel engines. The Institute's extensive facilities are available to evaluate gasoline and diesel engine lubricants with respect to engine sludge, oxidation, wear (camshaft lobes, camshaft followers, piston rings, piston liners, connecting rod bearings), oil consumption, piston deposits and fuel economy. New design engine components are also evaluated to determine acceptability with current day lubricants."
They test motor oil specifications!
What more do you want?
"Since 1977, the SwRI has played a key role in NASA space physics and planetary missions. With expertise in planetary and space science, instrument design and fabrication, and data systems development, the Institute contributes significantly to understanding the solar system and to the study of solar system bodies, in situ and remotely."
I checked to see who had been recruited in Ohio; there were two individual businesses or people; Indiana, none.
2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,
I do understand your concern with marketing companies that make claims. Most buy additives from companies and don't even know whats in them. Many have been sued by the FTC.
I have looked around they have the most certified testing than any additive business on the web.
...
"Before inserting your mouth again and making you look not only bad, but ignorant, go do some homework and then when you say something, someone might think of your comments as having some value. Its idiots like you that get on a forum and bog it down with garbage!"
ROTFLMAO, absolutely classic. Someone wants to fleece the public out of their hard earned money so they go and buy some Walmart oil, pour it into a different bottle, create a website full of fantastic unsubstantiated claims and then sits back and (hopefully) collects the money. Nice.
Then, when some folks challenge the veracity of the "claims", the purveyor of the miracle product gets upset and starts calling the folks who leveled the challenge "stupid" and "idiots". Nice.
So far at least, you have singularly failed to reference even a single piece of independently verifiable science that supports the wild claims from both you and that worthless web site. Until you do I dub thee a SPAMMER and a Con Artist.
If you want my most heart felt and humble apology, then please, provide some independently verifiable scientific proof that backs up all of the bilge water you're feeding us.
Best Regards,
Shipo
Yeah, right. Links please?
SFR 100: ASTM-D-5119 L-38
American Society for Testing and Materials ASTM KA24E Nissan Valve Train Wear Test
http://sfrcorp.com/testing/9
ProTecta Synthetic Engine Treatment: ASTM-D-6335-98
ProTecta Synthetic Engine Treatment: ASTM-D-2783
ProTecta Synthetic Engine Treatment: ASTM-D-6557-00
http://sfrcorp.com/testing/5
Fleet testing:
http://sfrcorp.com/test-documents/SFR-Diesel-Fuel-Conditioners-2005-Testing.pdf
Now, to the heart of the matter. Are you here hawking an oil additive that hasn't been tested with oil more modern than the 1998 vintage Citgo SJ rated 10W-40 motor oil cited in the text? I ask because that single test is the only one that seems to have any independent verification. FWIW, it appears that these guys (Autoresearch Laboratories, Inc. that is) used to do lots of testing for lots of folks, or at least they said they did, until they declared bankruptcy in 2000 and took off with a half of a million dollars of client money that had been paid in advance for tests that were never performed. Not the most trust-worthy of testing outfits if you ask me.
Comments:
1) If anybody had suggested that I use Citgo 10W-40 in any car of mine in 1998 I would have laughed in their face. Said another way, I find the choice of that (sub-par) oil as the test base highly suspicious. Hell, you might just have well added some Mobil 1 of that era to the test oil; it probably would have "fortified" the Citgo stuff just as well.
2) My bet is that any top quality oil from 1998 would have performed equally as well as the fortified Citgo 10W-40 used in the test, if not better.
3) Last time I checked the calendar indicated that we are now nearly half way through 2007, nearly nine and a half years since that test. My bet is that even a current top shelf conventional oil such as Havoline would see zero or even negative benefit from additive ProTecta.
4) Taking item #3 a step further, if you were to pollute a good 2007 vintage synthetic oil (say Mobil 1 0W-40) with that stuff, my bet is that you'd actually see worse results with the "Fortified" oil than you would with the 100% Mobil 1.
Sorry to say, you're going to have to try harder and provide links to far more recent scientific data to convince me that this stuff is anything more than a Snake-Oil get-rich scheme.
Best Regards,
Shipo
"My bet is that you'd actually see worse results with the "Fortified" oil than you would with the 100% Mobil 1."
If you look at a more recent ASTM test by SWRI ProTecta Synthetic Engine Treatment: ASTM-D-2783 you will find how well Mobil 1® Tri-Synthetic motor oil stands up against extreme pressure conditions.
Do engines have extreme pressure? Yes
According to the American Petroleum Institute (API) or the major oil companies spokesman, which is published in their Motor Oil Guide, they claim the following: “Extreme pressure conditions can develop between heavily loaded parts from lack of lubrication, inadequate clearance, extreme heat, and sometimes as a result of using the wrong type or grade of lubricant for the operating conditions of the engine. In modern engines the valve train with its cams, valve lifters, push rods, valve stem tips, and parts of the rocker arms operate under extreme pressure because they carry heavy loads on very small contact areas. Unit loading, which may be as high as 200,000 pounds per square inch, is many times greater than the loads on the connecting rod bearings or on the piston pins.” Because of higher unit loading, higher engine speeds, and the smaller size of certain parts, modern engines have many components that operate under boundary or extreme pressure conditions much of the time”.
Does this mean Mobil 1 is a bad oil? no
Does it mean it can be improved in extreme pressure areas? yes, which leads to less wear and extended equipment life.
If Pennzoil could be improved then, it can be improved now. Why do you think oil companies have additive divisions?
Why aren’t the oil companies involved in the additive market? Truth is they are the leaders in the development of aftermarket oil additives. Many of the additives used in the aftermarket industry are actually purchased from the oil companies. The oil companies, with their big budgets, can provide hundreds of thousands of dollars of testing to validate additive performance. The public is unaware of this though as most all oil companies run their additive divisions as separate companies under their corporate umbrella. They include Infineum for Exxon/Mobil, Oronite for Chevron/Texaco and then there is Ethyl who is well known for its tetraethyl lead previously found in all gasoline. Shell has their own as does Castrol. Quaker State owned Slick 50 additive company, and I cannot see them buying this company if the product would not have any benefit as the liability would be too great if the products would not perform. Chevron sells Techron today an aftermarket gasoline treatment, Valvoline has marketed aftermarket additives as well as others including the additive leader Lubrizol. One must realize the following: The oil companies make products to meet the OEM’s requirements not theirs. You could call an oil company up right now and ask if oil could be made better and your response would be similar to this: We have over 150 chemists in this building alone and if motor oil could be made better, we would be the ones to do it. On the other hand we could call their additive division and say we want a heavy duty performing oil that would out perform the current specification and they could fax you a product with hundreds of thousands of dollars of testing documentation.
Please, do us all a favor and take your snake-oil pitch over to http://www.bobistheoilguy.com. I'm sure you'll find lots of suckers over there who'll line up for this latest miracle lube, and pay top dollar for it too. :P
You have to be a little skeptical of any Multi-Level Marketing scheme to sell anything, whether it is Amway or ZZ Top records. I watched my mom and dad waste a fortune trying to get rich on just such pyramids. They are a poor excuse for marketing good products. Good products end up in reputable stores like Costco. Places that actually stand behind what they sell. MLMs need to be closely scrutinized to determine if they are a pyramid or a Ponzi scheme. When all the data you posted came from the MLM site it should be a flag to BEWARE! Call me an idiot, I am with shipo on this one.
Although it may make the (male) ego feel good to pick up the bottle at Advanced Auto and put it into the sump of the car, he'd be better off just putting that money into making sure the oil changes are on time or early for the use and conditions that motor and its oil have experienced.
These additives are all transfer schemes to move money from your wallet to their company's bank accounts.
2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,
Nascar, do you have ANY IDEA how many "miracle" additives have come and gone over the years? Rim fire spark plugs, toilet paper oil filters, STP, etc.
None of these additives do anything!
Just a waste of money. Funny, though. Every few years, especially when gas prices soar another Johnny Come Lately Snake Oil Company rides into town!
Save your money for NASCAR tickets!
If any of these guys had made the effort to read through the discussions from the beginning, they'd get a pretty good idea of the professional background of shipo and the other members who have given plenty of good advise, and that would help them to get a good clue what would fly here and what not. But then, we would have missed all that fun.
As you said, every now and then an occasional dude pops in to make a claim. I never associated it with the rise of gas prices, but it makes sense - better breeding ground.
The fuel additives guys were more entertaining though
Because its the american way. just ask any lottery winner.
'11 GMC Sierra 1500; '98 Alfa 156 2.0TS; '08 Maser QP; '67 Coronet R/T; '13 Fiat 500c; '20 S90 T6; '22 MB Sprinter 2500 4x4 diesel; '97 Suzuki R Wagon; '96 Opel Astra; '11 Mini Cooper S
If someone is claiming a fantastic jump in fuel mileage from an additive (basically, this would be a miraculous invention of earth-shattering proportions for the global economy), then the evidence has to be quite overwhelming. For the claim that a bomb can be made by splitting the atom, the test in New Mexico really clinched it for me :P Penicillin? Well, you take a shot and the infection goes away, just about every time.Synthetic oil? Impressive data, in the lab and the field---and the claims made for it are not hyperbolic by any means.
so what I'd require is a fleet test with say 50 identical cars....25 with the additive, 25 without...they are run for 10,000 miles in each group, all switching drivers...the average fuel mileages are tallied. IF there is a substantial difference in the two fleets, we take the additive out of the original 25 and put it in the other 25 (and vice-versa), then retabulate.
If you can do that, and show me mileage increases both times, I'm convinced.
But some obscure bearing test on a lawnmower done in a garage in Cleveland....no, that's not good enough for the extraordinary claim.
Most people after they have spent a hundred bucks on a gallon of STUFF that is supposed to improve mileage, will convince themselves they were not duped. Then of course they try to get others to spend a hundred bucks on a gallon so they recoup some of their loss. All the time being worked into an Amway frenzy with pictures of mansions overlooking the ocean just 10 more gallons away. If Costco sells it, I will give it a try. If it fails I take it back and get a refund with no questions asked.
The human being's capacity for self-delusion seems bottomless.
It might quite possibly be wired into us for survival, ironically. If cave men were too realistic they might have given up---LOL!
"Gee, I've got 28 years of a cold wet frightening existence to look forward to?"
Ditto with "nostalgia"....."gee, those '53 Nashes were great handling cars!"
Just time of year alone has shown me pretty big gaps on my normal commute. As recently as 2 months ago, when the temperature was mild and required no AC, I was getting between 27 and 28. Now that the AC is on and the humidity is up, its dipping to 26, which is where I was in the middle of winter, too.
'11 GMC Sierra 1500; '98 Alfa 156 2.0TS; '08 Maser QP; '67 Coronet R/T; '13 Fiat 500c; '20 S90 T6; '22 MB Sprinter 2500 4x4 diesel; '97 Suzuki R Wagon; '96 Opel Astra; '11 Mini Cooper S
So, what's the verdict?
FWIW, due to a coolant leak in a head gasket, I just pulled down the top end of one of our engines. In spite of nearly 150,000 miles of EGR buildup inside of the intake system, the section of the induction ports that are down stream of the fuel injectors were glittering and shiny. Those spotlessly clean sections of the intake system were clean simply because of the standard additives found in modern fuel.
Best Regards,
Shipo
2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,
FWIW, due to a coolant leak in a head gasket, I just pulled down the top end of one of our engines. In spite of nearly 150,000 miles of EGR buildup inside of the intake system, the section of the induction ports that are down stream of the fuel injectors were glittering and shiny. Those spotlessly clean sections of the intake system were clean simply because of the standard additives found in modern fuel
Unfortunately, I can't really go with what the owners manual says. All the manufacturers say don't do it. They always have. And when your intake gets all gunked up, where do they want you to go? Back to the dealer for an expensive cleaning. Besides, my owners manual says to only add 5W20 motor oil and says not to use the recirc button for the A/C either.
As far as only using Chevron, well, I try to use it as often as possible. I am from Canada and our gas prices are the most expensive in North America and I often head to the US border towns or US Costco to fill up so, I don't always have the luxury of going to Chevron. I just dont want to be stuck with a dirty intake in about 2 years but I also don't want to contribute to the gunking either.
Not technically correct. For a while during the mid 1990s BMW recommended Techron, however, most if not all fuels available here in North America these days have the necessary cleaning capabilities already built in.
"And when your intake gets all gunked up, where do they want you to go? Back to the dealer for an expensive cleaning."
What does your intake system have to do with fuel additives? Like it or not, only that last inch or so of the typical intake system gets cleaned by your fuel, upstream of that..., nothing. If you are spending money on additives under the impression that they're going to clean your intake system, sorry dude, not happn'in.
"Besides, my owners manual says to only add 5W20 motor oil..."
And your point is? Like it or not, there is plenty of scientific evidence to support the notion that modern 5W-20 and 0W-20 oils are quite capable of protecting engines for far longer than the body is likely to last.
"...and says not to use the recirc button for the A/C either."
That sounds odd. Between cars bought or leased by my business as well as those owned by my wife and me, I have never seen a single Owner's Manual that recommended against using the "Recirc" button. I'd be curious to hear the exact language that they used in that recommendation, would you please post it.
"As far as only using Chevron, well, I try to use it as often as possible. I am from Canada and our gas prices are the most expensive in North America and I often head to the US border towns or US Costco to fill up so, I don't always have the luxury of going to Chevron. I just don't want to be stuck with a dirty intake in about 2 years but I also don't want to contribute to the gunking either."
Once again, your intake isn't likely to be one bit cleaner after two years of 100% Chevron as opposed to two years of any other fuel you find available.
Best Regards,
Shipo
I was told many many times by different people and mechanics that using a fuel additive and/or good gasoline will help preventing clogging up the intake.
This is what my owners manual says about the Recirc button:
Outside/Recirculated Air Position
Use the outside air position in normal conditions. The recirculated air position should be used only when driving on dusty roads or for quick cooling of the interior.
BTW, the A/C in this year and model of car is really bad.
Think about this, the air goes through an air filter, then say a foot or two downstream the intake air goes past the throttle butterfly (except on some late model BMWs that use the valves as the throttle), then past a sensor or two to measure the air density. It then (optionally depending on engine design, smog layout and engine temperature) has some exhaust gas mixed into the intake mixture as well as some oily blow by gasses from the PVC system. This concoction then oozes along the intake plenum/manifold for anywhere from a few inches to as much as a foot or two until immediately before it gets to the intake valves (except on some new VW/Audi engines that use direct injection), which is where the fuel gets mixed with the inbound air.
From the point where the fuel gets mixed with the air and down to the valves is where your intake system is going to be pristine, above that the exhaust gases and blow by gases are going to muck up your intake manifold. And since no fuel (and what ever additives are in it or what you've added to it) is present until that point, there is nothing to prevent said "mucking" of the surfaces above it.
Like I mentioned earlier, I just pulled the top end of one of our engines (a 1998 3.8 liter Dodge Minivan by the way) down that had nearly 150,000 miles on it. The intake plenum and manifold were coated with a layer of varnish that was fairly hard (I could nick it with my finger nail, barely) and resistant to cleaning, and probably a sixty-fourth of an inch thick. What did I do about it? Not a damn thing.
As far as what mechanics have told you about fuel additives, ummm, pardon my skepticism, but I have yet to meet a single "mechanic" that was an automotive engineer specializing on the induction systems of Intermittent Combustion engines. You? The same thing applies to your Dealer's advice about the oil, are they engineers specializing on the lubrication of your engine? If your Owner's Manual specifies 5W-20, then by definition the only other oil that is inherently approved is 0W-20.
Best Regards,
Shipo
Great summary of the system pathway, Shipo!
2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,
So far the only additives I've used is for diesel fuel conditioning and fuel stabilizer for my boat, both of which make perfect sense to me, for what they do.
Yeah, it's getting ridiculous. My Mitsu dealer lists not one, but two of that kind. According to the glossy pamphlet they offer "Fuel Induction Service" for $127.95 where
"Using specialized equipment and products, we quickly and effectively clean your throttle chamber, fuel injectors, intake manifold ports, intake valves and combustion chambers. Recommended every 60K.
The other is "Throttle Chamber Service" for $79.95 where "using specialized air intake cleaners, we quickly remove the sludge and varnish deposits that buildup in the throttle chamber". Recommended every 15K. :surprise:
SI-1 Complete Fuel System Cleaner
SI-1's injector and valve detergent is a concentrated package of the most powerful high-temperature detergents available to clean gasoline fuel injectors or carburetors, intake valves and combustion chambers and can clean injectors to nearly 100% efficiency in one treatment. The cleansing effect on injector deposits can raise fuel economy approximately 12% or even greater, depending on the condition of the injectors. http://www.redlineoil.com/products_fueladditives.asp?subCategoryID=11
Thanks for the info...btw, are you an engineer? I have been told that the Auto manufacturer mechanics receive factory training in their factory school and they do have vital information provided to them by their engineers. As far as oil goes, I think the only real way is to do an engine oil analysis.
And dealers will be quick to tell you that intake cleaning is required and in my case, it was done under warranty. So, Mazda must approve of it. There is so many different opinions out there, it's hard to pick and choose because everyone has their own convincing argument.
Yes, and I even worked for a vehicle manufacturer for a while, HOWEVER, I and NOT a Mechanical or Automotive engineer. That said, I got lots of chances to rub shoulders with the folks that did the actual designs (especially the forensic engineers, the guys that take a new engine (or other part), run it to absolute destruction, tear it apart and then figure out what went wrong) back in the day.
"I have been told that the Auto manufacturer mechanics receive factory training in their factory school and they do have vital information provided to them by their engineers."
While that is true as far as it goes, I've heard volumes of disinformation and outright lies come out of service departments to such an extent that I could write a very funny anecdotal book about some of the junk that I've been told.
"As far as oil goes, I think the only real way is to do an engine oil analysis."
That's a GREAT start.
"And dealers will be quick to tell you that intake cleaning is required and in my case, it was done under warranty. So, Mazda must approve of it."
I'm not sure how you get from point A to point B. True the procedure may have been done under warranty, however, who knows what the charge back was for.
"There is so many different opinions out there, it's hard to pick and choose because everyone has their own convincing argument."
Yupper, and that's why I always consult the Owner's Manual when in doubt.
Best Regards,
Shipo
Yupper, and that's why I always consult the Owner's Manual when in doubt
Indeed, but as you can see, my Owners manual is a little odd and Mazda is now Ford. If I adhered to the owners manual then it would be unbearably hot in my car in the summer by having my recirc button off. I would also be forced to return or deal with only the dealer that sold me my car for all maintainence, as recommended in the manual. The manual also makes no mention of replacing the tranny fluid or brake fluid or timing chain. So, I guess it would be to foolish to ever replace them.
Best Regards,
Shipo
if you don't plan on owning the car long, then i'd tend to agree about the tranny fluid recommendation. but regardless of vehicle, i think AT fluid will degrade, and shift quality suffer past 60K. "lifetime" is the key here. if you are talking 80K, maybe i'd agree.
agree with you on brake fluid change.
now onto timing chain / belts, do you think recommendations from honda and toyota and the others that recommend replacement at near 100K, do you think they do so just to support their dealer networks?
I'm not sure I necessarily agree. The new fully synthetic AT fluids are extremely good and have gone through LOTS of testing to validate their performance. That said, if I was doing lots of towing in hot weather climbing up into the mountains and back, sure, I'd change that tranny fluid, but normal driving? Hmmm, I wonder if Blackstone offers UATFA (Used ATF Analysis).
"now onto timing chain / belts, do you think recommendations from honda and toyota and the others that recommend replacement at near 100K, do you think they do so just to support their dealer networks? "
Lets separate the two. Timing belts SHOULD ALWAYS be replaced when the manufacturer says it should be replaced. Period, full stop, the end. Timing chains are a completely different matter, and I don't know of a single manufacturer that recommends chain replacement (not saying that there aren't a few out there...). In the case of Honda (who is now using a timing chain in the new Civic for instance), they do not recommend ever replacing the chain.
Looked at from a different perspective, over the years I've come across any number of engines with well over 300,000 miles on the clock that still had the original timing chain. That said, I've also come across a number of older GM engines that used a nylon toothed cam gear to keep the noise down, and I'd honestly be surprised if any of those turkeys ever made it to the 100,000 mile mark. :P
Best Regards,
Shipo
Why the high rate of transmission problems as compared to other mechanical issues? I've read the number one problem with trans failures is due to poor fluid.
The fluid in my Mazda MPV started to get a brown tint to it at 25k miles. So, it would seem to be getting dirty or picking up contaimenents. Even though my owners manual does not address a trans fluid change interval, I had it flushed.
Cheap insurance as they say.
If you're using a good brand about half the time, my opinion is you don't need a fuel additive. The Mazda dealer pushing it doesn't mean your car needs it. Call Mazda and ask them.
As for the recirculate button and being unbearably hot: your post said "under normal conditions" you don't need the recirculate on. If your car cannot handle the heat load with the current cooling capacity of the unit, it may have a problem in size or be undercharged or partially blocked in the evaporator or condenser. If you have to use recirculate in slow traffic that would be normal IMHO. You should be able to go along after 10-15 minutes of driving at 40 or more and the unit keep the car cool. My cars turn on the recirculate when in AC and the car sensors perceive high temps and then the units turn it back to normal flow after 5 minutes or so as the interior cools.
The disclaimer in the manual is to avoid being sued if someone is injured or dies due to an accumulation of exhaust gases using the recirculate.
Brake fluid is hygroscopic and absorbs humidity slowly. It should be changed by a skilled person.
Transmission fluid has additives which deteriorate with age and with doing their job. They should be refreshed by changing the part of the fluid that can be drained; and the filters need changed also.
Timing chains wear. A mechanic can assess the amount of wear. Changing is a prophylactic measure; you can wait for failure if you like.
As for additives I use only Techron in the bottle because my area is Chevron deprived. If I put it in after about a year of using more than half name brands and some large store brands (Kroger, Murphy (Walmart)), I can hear a difference after a few miles. Whether it's a change in octane due to the bottle contents or a change in efficiency of the injectors or a cleaning of the combustion chamber interiors, I can't assess. I have a knowledge of chemistry and know the feel of the motor. So I use it one bottle of fuel system cleaner about every 9 months. There is a Techron injector cleaner which I think is lower concentration of something. It's cheaper.
I've repeated some things after rereading your posts. Take what advice you choose from other posters and myself here.
2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,
I cannot say that I've ever seen any statistcal evidence that suggests that cars that have a "lifetime fill" fail more often than automatic transmissions that recommend periodic fluid/filter replacements.
"The fluid in my Mazda MPV started to get a brown tint to it at 25k miles. So, it would seem to be getting dirty or picking up contaimenents. Even though my owners manual does not address a trans fluid change interval, I had it flushed."
You had it flushed or just had the fluid replaced? Flushing can introduce all sorts of problems and actually lead to a failure that you wouldn't otherwise have had. The conventional pan-drop filter replacement and fluid top-off is still the best method to use, when necessary. That said, one thing you should know is that many of the new synthetic ATFs now being used smell "burnt" right out of the bottle (or start smelling burnt shortly thereafter), and start getting dark after only a few tens of thousands of miles, however, that in no way is indicitive of how well they are still working.
Best Regards,
Shipo
Sorry, I've got to part company with you on this one. Virtually every engine that I've ever torn down that had a timing chain (and metal gears) showed very little wear, even when the rest of the engine was toast. On cars with longer chain assemblies (i.e. SOHC and DOHC engines), chain can stretch be problematic, that said, most (if not all) manufacturers that use chains for OHC engines also include some form of a tensioner assembly so that the chain doesn't start getting noisy.
I suppose it's possible that some manufacturer somewhere dropped the ball and didn't design a particular engine's timing chain properly, however, I can't think of a single chain equipped engine built in the last twenty years that had a problem with the chains failing before the rest of the engine. You?
Best Regards,
Shipo
I notice in a Bonneville discussion there are some replacements going on... I'll have to search there.
2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,
I'd be willing to bet that you can take any transmission that is notorious for early failure and give it extra cooling and that its life will be extended, with no other changes.
"I'd be willing to bet that you can take any transmission that is notorious for early failure and give it extra cooling and that its life will be extended, with no other changes."
I think that Chrysler kind of proved that point for you. They took their 4-Speed tranny that they've used in minivans for years and added an external tranny cooler inline between the radiator and the transmission. They also went from semi-synthetic tranny fluid to a fully synthetic fluid and now the they use a lifetime fill as opposed to their previous recommendation of a 30,000 mile pan drop.
Best Regards,
Shipo