Fuel and Oil Additives

shipo

Yo dude! Until you can point the rest of to independently verifiable science that this junk works, please stay off of these boards and STOP wasting our time. :mad:

Mr_Shiftright

Please don't use the boards to solicit your own products or link to your business. If you want to discuss additives in general terms, okay.

thank you

MrShiftright
Host

gashauler

That's true that oil companies use additives. That's what brands that gasoline. However some additive are bunk. Like the one that gets water out of your tank. It's nothing but ethanol and you'll find that most areas already have ethanol in the gasoline during the winter months. When water is a problem.

Techron is the additive for Chevron but it is a good additive. Might be the best. When you add any gasoline additive to your car that's more than what comes in the gallon of gas it does clean the engine. We always told customer what ever works then use it. Just like the grade of gas. Start with the lower grade and work up. Whatever works best.

vcheng

http://kalecoauto.com/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=2&products_id=7

You MUST read the reviews at this link.

Enjoy.

After ordering a few bottles, browse through this great selection of products:

http://kalecoauto.com/index.php?main_page=products_all

shipo

ROTFLMAO! That's pretty rich.

My favorite quote is:
"Before I used the Engine Scrub my oil came out black every time I changed it. After only one use, my engine oil is clean every time I change it! As an added bonus I am saving a lot of money on gasoline. For some unrelated reason, the engine will not crank over and now I am walking or using my bicycle. However, every time I change the oil now....it is as clean as when I bought it. This stuff really works!!"

Yeah, I'll bet! ;-)

Someone has a really great sense of humor, I wonder if this group has actually suckered anybody into buying this stuff?

Best Regards,
Shipo

highroller

HAHA

highroller

I was at my regular usual chevron gas station today and noticed that on all the pumps, there was a postage that said "may contain 10% ethanol". I wonder what's the motive for this and if this will be a step toward using ethanol for all gas stations not just chevron. Plus, would it be better to not have any ethanol and just stick to regular old-fashioned gasoline? Plus again.... i wonder about those cars with the old catalyst converters using ethanol, could be bad?

shipo

I noticed the same thing Tuesday night at my local Shell station, brand spankin' new stickers on every pump stating "may contain 10% ethanol, ask inside station for details".

I'll be trying my local ExxonMobil station sometime this weekend and see if the same thing holds true. :-/

Best Regards,
Shipo

shipo

It seems that we are seeing the end of MTBE, hence the emergence of Ethanol based oxygenates.

http://www.boston.com/news/local/maine/articles/2006/03/14/nh_switch_to_ethanol_- gas_sooner_than_2007_mtbe_ban/?rss_id=Boston.com+--+Maine+news

Best Regards,
Shipo

imidazol97

getting what they want. When they complain about earlier methods for air pollution reduction, certain things, MTBE, get banned. The replacement is something else; in this case it's ethanol.

In our state the E-Check system of paying 20$ for a test every two years caused lots of complaining. So now they're gonna get ethanol required except in winter will be my guess. That's at the same time all the other major areas need ethanol. Guess what ADM is going to do with the price of ethanol? You guessed it. Guess what that'll be used as an excuse to do to the price of your gasoline? You guessed it.

In our area in that past certain stations have used the up to 10% ethanol for decades. It reduced their cost and they paid less tax on the gallon of mix but they kept the price the same as real 100% gasoline; hence more profit.

shipo

"...hence more profit."

Uh-huh. And then there is the issue of reduced fuel economy (roughly 5% as I understand it), hence even more profit. :-/

Best Regards,
Shipo

imidazol97

Hadn't thought of that: lower mileage therefore they sell more gasoline.

gashauler

If you're in Ca. the state outlawed MTBE. That was Chevrons oxygenate. And also I doudt you'll find any gasoline without ethanol if you live in a area that has air problems.

shipo

Here in southern New Hampshire, we've been required to have oxygenated fuels for some time now, however, until recently there has been no infrastructure to support ethanol. As such, we are going to see ethanol phased in over the next seven months so that we can meet the 1-Jan-2007 deadline.

FWIW, two counties north of here we can buy good old fashioned gasoline, no MTBE and no Ethanol. ;-)

Best Regards,
Shipo

highroller

The benefit i see is that ethanol is suppose to burn cleaner and reduce carbon monoxide, but for me, i dont like the increase in fuel consumption and the use of thinner oils for using ethanol (going by my manual). I will be trying to use other gas stations without ethanol as long as i can....

shipo

Thinner oils?

I've never heard that before. What is the context of the recommendation in your manual?

Best Regards,
Shipo

w9cw

In the Midwest, it's very difficult to find gas without 10% ethanol. This has been the case for at least 10 years, if not longer. Effectively, every station - major or discount - includes 10% ethanol. One has to search quite a bit before you can find regular unleaded or any other octane which doesn't include it. Of course, here in Illinois, we're one of the largest corn producing, and therefore ethanol producing, states.

highroller

My 06 nissan titan is a flex-fuel vehicle and that in my owner's manual, my recommended oil weights can be 5w30, 10w30, and/or 10w40. You can google this in and type in nissan owner's manual and read this exact wordings from my owner's manual...
"If you operate the vehicle on E-85 fuel, use only SAE 5w30 viscocity for all temperatures. SAE 5w30 engine oil is preferred for use in Flex-Fuel engines. If flex-fuel oil is not used when using E-85, engine wear may be increased significantly. The characteristics of E-85 fuel make it unsuitable for use and you can experience hard startups, rough idle, hesitations when ambient temp. falls below 0F and/or above 90F. Because E-85 fuel contains less energy per gallon then gasoline, you will increase in fuel consumption."

I know that most gas stations use only about 10% ethanol and i know i probably shouldn't have to worry about it, but the above statements scare me greatly and leads me to assume thinner oil is required.

shipo

Hmmm, I wouldn't worry too much about your oil, since regular gasoline will now contain up to 10% (by volume or weight?) Ethanol, that is a far cry from the 85% Ethanol component of E-85.

Best Regards,
Shipo

204meca

Thank you for that link, I have not laughed so much for a long time. I finally found out where I can get muffler bearings! JC Whitney look out!

vcheng

shipo

Six weeks ago this coming Tuesday (4-April) I noticed new stickers on all of the fuel pumps in our area (southern New Hampshire) proclaiming that ten percent of the fuel may be made up of Ethanol. I'm not at all sure that the fuel that I bought that very day had Ethanol in it, however, since that time my mileage has dropped from a very consistent 22.5 to an average of 21.3. Coincidence? I'm not ready to go that far. Yet.

Best Regards,
Shipo

gagrice

It is not a coincidence it is a fact of ethanol as an additive. Pay more drive less. We have been given the royal shaft by our Congress. Thanks to some very powerful loobyist working for the likes of ADM.

imidazol97

Right on.

mwrobe1

"I finally found out where I can get muffler bearings!"

Heheheh...

jay43

I can't argue with logic. When something works, it works.
When it dose not, well, back to the drawing board.

I have an old 91 chevy caprice with 179,000 miles on it. I that the 5 ltr engine, aka 305 cubic inch. The car gets 20 to 20.5 miles per gallon every day, year in and year out driving in these mountains.The service engine light has been coming on for the past 2 years after I drive about 20 miles. I thought I would give Acetone a try with the gas prices well past 3 dollars a gallon and it is an old car so not too much to lose if it craps out due to Acetone.

I have a 32 gallon tank so I put 6 Oz of Acetone in it and capped the tank off with Mobil regular gas. I drove it 337 miles and it took 15 gallons of gas. Thats 22.4 miles per gallon. A Two mpg increase with Acetone.

Next I decided to increase the mix to 3 Oz per 10 gallons.

I drove 256 miles and refueled, It took 14 gallons. That gave me 18.2 MPG. The milege went down by more than 4 MPG
at three ounces compared to using 2 Oz.

I switch back to 2 OZ and took a trip to visit friends last weekend. The service engine light came on after 4 miles. That never happened before, it would always come on after 20 miles. Oh well, Hope I make it down there. I drove for a couple hours, swung into a rest area for a break. Back on the road. The service engine light never came back on.

The trip down was in light rain. I gassed up when I got there, 276 miles later. It took 9.5 gallons. Thats a wopping 29 MPG. I could not believe it. I drove back Sunday, I poured rain all the way back. I refueled when I made it home. That was 294 miles for a total of 570 miles round trip. It took another 11.1 gallons to cap it off
so I averaged 26.48 MPG driving back in the pouring rain.

The round trip was a total of 570 miles and I used 20.6 gallons for a average of 27.67 MPG.

I bought this car new in 91, in it's best day driving in sunny Florida on flat roads it got 24 MPG tops and this 570 mile trip was through the Adirondack mountains of NY and beleive they are far from flat.

I can't argue with facts and my facts say the car runs smoother that it ever did and it gets better milage that it ever did. Now tell me it that is logical

gagrice

I can't argue with facts and my facts say the car runs smoother that it ever did and it gets better milage that it ever did. Now tell me it that is logical

Welcome to the forum. Are you by any chance selling this product? If so your credibility heads into the toilet. We get so many snake oil claims that we are very hardened to the wonderful stories. If you had posted here for a couple years and decided to try this stuff you may get someone to believe you. I would say at least a dozen people have come onto this thread in the last year with the same fantastic acetone story. I would not even consider putting the stuff in my vehicle. I never give the manufacturer an out on warranty.

shipo

Sorry dude, your numbers simply don't mean a thing. The car that I ran my test in had consistently delivered 22.5 mpg via the OBC prior to running my test. My test was then conducted over the course of over 3,000 miles and while running with Acetone I didn't get anywhere near that 22.5 figure. What did it prove? Nothing. It is statistically irrelevant, plain and simple. Yours is even less so.

Funny thing about mileage, a couple of months back I left for work and since the sky was looking threatening I checked my gas gauge and decided that I'd better fill up before the rain hit. As I was pulling out of the station the front passed me and the storm that it brought with it was a whopper. Rain, hail and wind, so much so that I had a difficult time keeping my car in the lane. When I got to work I was astounded to see that my OBC was registering an astounding 32 miles per gallon! Yikes! No 3.8 liter Dodge Grand Caravan has any right to get that kind of mileage. "Tailwinds." I said to myself.

That evening on the way home it was still storming, complete with wind and rain and I assumed that by the time I got to my destination I would see a more normal MPG reading because I would then be driving into the teeth of that very same wind. However, when I got home I was still showing an average MPG reading of just over 30 mpg, and that was after over 100 miles of driving.

"How can that be?" I wondered to myself. I then checked the "Map in Motion" on the weather.com site and noticed that the storm that had pushed me to work in the morning had gone out to sea, turned and headed back inland in a nice circular pattern. Said another way, I had a tailwind for both of my commutes that day.

So, do I believe that your Caprice gets better mileage with Acetone? Nope. Do I think either of our experiments have even a shred of validity? Nope again.

Best Regards,
Shipo

imidazol97

The 20.5 mileage you describe as everyday driving mileage. You added acetone and went on a longer, straight drive. You would get better mileage.

Different driving environment, different mileage. Acetone added: nothing.

jay43

Shipo, I posted my results. As you can see with 3 oz my mileage went down, with two it increased. You will also note that my test was on a chevy, not a dodge. I do not have a clue why this works for me and not you. I use regular gas from mobil.

The results have made me a believer. I will continue to monotor my mileage long term and let you know the results.

I have read of others like yourself that say no difference or worse mileage and of some that claim it works. This may be a hit or miss thing depending on the vehicle. I really had nothing much to loose so I gave it a try. Would I do it with my new truck, No, simple because it is still under warranty.

I do not have a OBC on my caprice. I have not a clue as to how they actually work or are calibrated. As far as I know
autos do not have flow meters installed on the fuel lines.
I would assume the OBC takes RPM readings from the engine and speed and mileage and they have a formula to compute your mileage that way. In which case if true, they would not be accurate to the exact mileage you are actually getting. I suppose the only way is actually topping off your gas tank and recording the mileage and fuel used over a period of time.

I sincerly hope you always have a good strong tailwind in your travels

jay43

Imidazol97, the 20 to 20.5 mileage is what that car would get
driving everyday in these mountains. With 2 oz Actone it went to 22.4 MPG driving in the mountains. So I am not comparing apples to oranges. I do not do a lot of highway driving so the comparson on the long highway trip was compared to the best mileage I have gotten while driving in Florida. I can not argue with the numbers I get, they speak for themselves.

Mr_Shiftright

It's really the same old problem. Any results, even "numbers" are only anecdotal unless they are subjected to rigorous scientific testing. You can never prove or disprove anything with individual, anecdotal results.

The car would have to be fed a known quantity of fuel from an outside tank, with and without acetone, under the exact same conditions, and with the driver "blind" to which type of fuel he was running.

If someone does that, and gets results, I'll believe; otherwise, it is just anecdotal evidence of no particular value I think.

Then of course, there is the issue of "even IF it works, it is harmful?"

Again, more testing.

Then of course, there is the bigger question "if it works and it's not harmful, why doesn't every gasoline company in the world use it as a competitive edge?"

Then we get into conspiracies, and the whole argument crumbles into a heap.

SO? What we need is rigorous scientific testing posted from somewhere.

jay43

Shiftright, your question "Then of course, there is the bigger question "if it works and it's not harmful, why doesn't every gasoline company in the world use it as a competitive edge?"

From what I have read from others that have tried it, it appears not to work in all cases. In many the mileage falls
and it others it increases. I would assume one shoe dose not fit all in this case. Every engine is different and it some it works and others it dose not. I reload amminution for rifles.
By tuning the load to the rifle it will shoot one very small hole. That same load in another rifle might well shoot shotgun patterns in another gun of the same caliber.

I think one might well find the same with Acetone in different engines. Ine guy says he dose well on 1.5 Oz, another 2.o Oz and yet another 3.5 Oz and some say thier mileage went south.

To write this off as tailwinds, Not science, or pure B.S.
simple dose not hold water. One can not agrue with the numbers wether they be good or bad.

All I can tell you is that I was impressed with the numbers

Mr_Shiftright

I don't mean "anecdotal" as a disparagement at all. All I meant was that it is not scientific evidence. It's not science unless everything is controlled, monitored, REPEATABLE and reviewed.

In theory, if it "worked" it should pretty much work for everyone, since the claim is that it affects the gasoline itself. I suppose part of a scientific test would be to also switch gasoline brands.

So whenever I see one group getting very noticeable results and another group getting zero or negative results, I have to wonder if the tester isn't interfering in the results unintentionally, whether through lack of controls, errors, etc.

The reason I'm so skeptical is that this apparently simple solution to the entire world's energy crisis lies untapped by the entire oil industry, auto industry and U.S government. That seems...well...in-credible.

Thanks for posting your results! I'd try it myself but I don't have the guts to possibly screw up my new car. Maybe after warranty is over....

jay43

Shiftright, when you said "In theory, if it "worked" it should pretty much work for everyone, since the claim is that it affects the gasoline itself."

There is no doubt that it effects the gasoline but it also effects the engine in many different ways.

I do a fair amount of custom ammunition reloading. The powder and bullet manufactures publish data for reloading. All will tell you to start with a lite load and work up to a hotter load as you watch for high pressure signs to a
certain max amount to powder.
Every cartage will have a max pressure limit. some might well be 20,000 psi while others might be 60,000 psi.

When ammunition manufactures make ammunition it is made for the weakest action that exists for good reason. One gun manufacturer might well make a gun to handle 50,000 psi pressure knowing the max pressure for the cartage used in that gun is only 40,000 psi and another manufacturer might make an action to handle 80,000 psi for the same cartage.

As with auto manufactures they all generally make engines to run on 87 octane and run fairly well. One might use better materials and steels than the other. One might have a tighter piston or valve fit that the other, all effect engine performance one way or the other.

There is no doubt in my mind that the gasoline manufactures
make gasoline to run in the junkiest engine that exists. Could they make better gasoline, you bet. But they don't because it has to perform in all engines fairly well.

They go to the lowest dominator simply because they can't afford lawsuits or bad press because their fuel damaged someone's engine or it didn't run quite right in a certain engine.

I look at Acetone as a way to Tweek better performance
out of the engine. It may work in one but not in the other.

As with guns, one bore might be tighter than the other, the same can be said of piston cylinders. If I were to make a
cartage that shot well in a loose bore with no pressure signs and used that same cartage in a tight bore, It might well blow up the gun because the pressures just went through the roof.

You have a good one:)

imidazol97

>There is no doubt that it effects the gasoline but it also effectsaffects the engine in many different ways.

When someone can explain to me _how_ the acetone would work to improve the mileage attainable from a gasoline motor, I will be ready to learn. Until then, it's like the pellets to put in your gas tank that are mothballs (paradichlorobenzene) with toilet perfumes that recently were noted by some state's attorneys.

hardball75006

First of all there is no shoot out, secondly it's not misuse! Go to Berrymans Chemtool web site and look at the MSDS (material Safety Data Sheets) almost all of their products have acetone in them. Do a little research before you start spouting meaningless drivel!

Mr_Shiftright

Please try to maintain a courteous response at all times. You may attack ideas but not people, them's the rules. As for a "shootout", yes, there definitely seems to be a lot of controversy on this acetone subject around the 'net.

miagarfunckle

I added Rislone to my 1996 Toyota Tercel about 5000 miles ago and the noisy lifters are gone. I wanted to know if this additive increases gas mileage or anything else other then quiet the lifters. The car has 116000 on it. Anybody else used this stuff?

imidazol97

I use it occasionally at low levels. I used to use it by putting in 1/2 to 3/4 quart 500 miles before an oil change.

Now that oils contain much better additives Rislone's additives aren't that much better. I put in maybe 1/2 quart, but I only do this every 8 months or so. You can effect the same result in my opinion now by changing your oil at 1500 miles a couple of times. That means your oil's additives are fresh and they will do the same cleaning.

The Rislone is 5 weight oil. A little light for hot summer use here so I'm a little careful when I put it in. I have 1/2 quart in my 98 car now. Temps have moderated so it's not having trouble keeping oil in the oil pan cooler.

dboe

There is a big difference between the very occassional use of Berryman's (if at all, but a fine product) and pouring some abitrary amounts of acetone in your tank.
What amazes me about this topic, as well as the ones on oil, is that we seem to lose sight of the cars of yesteryear that ran for well over 100,000 miles if cared for properly, and they did that with inferior lubricants and fuels compared with what is available today.
That's why I am against any OTC additives to begin with, unless you are battling a problem. Regular maintenance trumps over additives, snake oil or not, every time IMO.

shipo

"Regular maintenance trumps over additives, snake oil or not, every time IMO."

Hmmm, kind of a new spin on the following old saying:

Old age and treachery will overcome youth and exuberance every time.

;-)

Best Regards,
Shipo

dboe

Old age and treachery will overcome youth and exuberance every time.

I like it! And livin' it too! LOL

marcrosoft

http://blog.sfrcorp.com

Mr_Shiftright

Hmmm...those aren't really "facts" in the sense of an independent and tested form of information...the website is from the seller of the goods, and, sad to say, has the usual "conspiracy theory" stuff in it. So personally I'm pretty unimpressed with the data and the presentation.

If any of the proof has gone through scientific peer review, I'd like to review that.

shipo

Given that that was marcosoft's first post, I seriously suspect that A) he/she is nothing more than a shill, and won't be back for a second post.

Best Regards,
Shipo

dboe

Additives were helpful in older cars, but with better fuels and oils at our disposal today, it is simply not necessary IMO.
If you buy 30 weight motor oil at Rite Aid and meets oil standards for 70's cars and earlier, you might just need some additives.

sean300

Quite a few years ago some of my friends told me about this gas additive called fueleron. It is supposed to clean your fuel system so well that your car will pass any emissions test with flying colors. People swear by this stuff but lately I can't find it on the store shelves. Has anyone heard or used this additive and what happened to it? Did the government or big oil take it off the market because it worked too well?

shipo

More than likely it didn't work at all and was forced off the market either due to poor sales or because the company was found out to be engaging in fraud. The simple truth is that if an engine has a faulty fuel system and/or ignition system and/or emissions system, and/or is suffering from internal damage (bad rings, valves...) it's going to fail an emissions test. Period, full stop, the end. No amount of snake oil is going to help it.

Best Regards,
Shipo

sean300

Thanks for the info. Was hoping for a miracle fix for MIL in my car (evap system purge problem) - it came back on again. Will have to take care of the old-fashioned way: go to the shop and take care of the repair. Honestly, didn't really think snake oil would work but worth a try.

Sean300