Fuel and Oil Additives

imidazol97

My 98 LeSabre has cost about $600 in unscheduled maintenance (upper intake manifold--now I could do it myself) I also changed water pump at the time. Not bad for 130K miles and 8 years.

shipo

I suppose as cars get more reliable and lubricants become so much better we'll all have to deal with cars with mileage north of 100K that have been super reliable. I say "deal with" because after 8 years one tends to get a "Jones" for a new ride. Unfortunately my 1998 GC has very little street value in spite of its reliabliity, and even though I'm currently piling on the miles to the tune of > 25,000 per year (the GC had 87,000 on the clock in the last week of June 2005 and now has 105,000 not even 7 full months later) I simply cannot justify dumping it for a new ride, unless that is, it develops a series of significant problems.

So, how much longer are you keeping the LeSabre? Gonna try for 200K?

Best Regards,
Shipo

imidazol97

I plan to keep it even if trans needs repair or replacement. Kid can drive it. Thinking about an old, cheap pickup for utility work and minimal driving as a third vehicle.

Repairs are cheap. New cars are not. Probably will replace with a used car next time that's a couple of years old.

shipo

I'm still a few years off from the "kid can drive it" stage as my son is turning 12 in a couple of weeks. In addition, he is keen to drive something with a manual transmission so I'm thinking that I'll have to pony up for a new car within a year or two, if for no other reason than to get one with three pedals. ;-)

Best Regards,
Shipo

Mr_Shiftright

I don't think you should benchmark off the OBC. I was just curious what premium fuel would do on this older vehicle. Did it seem to run any better/worse?

shipo

"I don't think you should benchmark off the OBC."

Hmmm, not sure I agree. Why? The OBC, which is fairly consistently reporting about 4.5% above actual, and as such is the only relatively even unit of measure that I can use. Where as using the actual fuel pumped into the tank divided by the miles driven and averaged over a long period of time will show actual MPG numbers, the OBC can give you an "Apples to Apples" measurement from tank to tank. Performing a tank by tank analysis with the amount of fuel pumped at each fill-up will give invalid numbers due to the fact that each and every fill-up is susceptible to the vagaries of when any given pump shuts off. Even if one used the same pump every fill-up they are highly unlikely to stop filling at exactly the same point each time due to factors such as the angle of the nozzle in the filler neck and the GPH rate of the pump (which often varies depending upon the number of folks filling their cars at that same instant).

"I was just curious what premium fuel would do on this older vehicle. Did it seem to run any better/worse?"

According to my patented "Butt Dyno", there was zero difference in drivability. I'm now running Regular fuel and once again, I can detect no difference in how the engine runs. That having been said, today was probably a bad time sense anything as I drove to work this morning through a fairly heavy snow storm (over two inches fell while I was driving), and as such my ability to 1) drive smoothly (due to other cars and poor road conditions), and 2) accelerate at a reasonable rate were both negatively impacted. If I notice anything tonight I'll let you know.

Best Regards,
Shipo

qbrozen

interesting results thus far. So what is left?

i'm actually looking at the data for the first time, and wish it was a bit more complete (no offense, i still think its great you are doing this). Tank 6 seems like it was pretty important given that there was a slight uptick in mileage at the 3.0 oz acetone mark. Might be garbage, might not be. But, if I average all the OBC numbers up to that point, I see a 3% increase in mileage at tank 5, and a 4% increase using the calculated mileage numbers.

Of course, you know I'm not a proponent of the acetone at this point ... but I guess I'm playing devil's advocate. Someone COULD argue that you were seeing an improvement, but cut the experiment short at that time.

Then again, as you've stated, all the numbers so far were below your original benchmark. Guess we'll see if you can get back to and maintain that 22.5 pre-acetone mark.

shipo

"Tank 6 seems like it was pretty important given that there was a slight uptick in mileage at the 3.0 oz acetone mark. Might be garbage, might not be."

Looking back at the notes that I posted with the results of my first 3.0 oz Acetone tank I found the following that would more than explain the "uptick in mileage":

Traffic and curiosity lead me to drive this tank like I was a little old lady, in an attempt to see if I could get back to my pre-Acetone 22.5 OBC readings. Nope. Even with using every fuel conserving trick I know (not how I normally drive mind you), I still only got the OBC display back to my best reading since my first Acetone tank. That having been said, I did get the best calculated mileage of any tank while on this test.

I remember that tank and how hard I tried to get the best mileage possible, which is something that I refuse to do on a regular basis. What was so frustrating about that tank was that had I applied the same conservation techniques to a tank of fuel from before the test, I would most likely have gotten close to 24 mpg. This is of course speculation; however, that I only got 21.2 on the OBC meant to me that the 3.0 oz. ratio wasn't doing anything for my mileage.

As for "What's next?" I'll probably go a few tanks with exclusively ExxonMobil Regular, plot the mileage from them and then try the 3.0 ratio Acetone again, this time with no more than two or three tanks of ExxonMobil Regular. My bet is that my mileage will once again drop. Should be interesting.

Best Regards,
Shipo

fred222

Total --------- Net --------------- AVG ------------------ Acetone --- MPG --- MPG ---- Fuel
Tank ---- Mileage ---- Miles --- E/T ---- MPH --- Gallons --- per 10g ---- OBC --- Calc ---- Brand
Start ---- 102,808
Tank1 -- 103,102 --- 294.3 --- 6:43 --- 43.82 --- 14.883 ---- 2.0 oz ------ 21.2 --- 19.77 --- Shell
Tank2 -- 103,444 --- 341.3 --- 9:36 --- 35.55 --- 17.727 ---- 2.0 oz ------ 19.7 --- 19.25 --- Shell
Tank3 -- 103,765 --- 321.6 --- 7:45 --- 41.50 --- 16.206 ---- 2.5 oz ------ 20.8 --- 19.84 --- Shell
Tank4 -- 104,109 --- 344.6 --- ?:?? --- ??.?? --- 17.907 ---- 2.5 oz ------ ??.? --- 19.24 --- Shell
Tank5 -- 104,467 --- 357.9 --- 9:08 --- 39.19 --- 17.603 ---- 3.0 oz ------ 21.2 --- 20.33 --- Shell

As a scientist, this is very interesting, but to have any confidence in your numbers you must have only one variable. You would have to drive the vehicle in exactly the same way for each tank at the same temperature, humidity, wind velocity, tire pressure, oil age, filter age.

imidazol97

As a scientist also I say that I see no statistical variation there that has meaning. Other variables such as alcohol in the fuel due to manufacturer or seasonal or area pollution requirements are variables we can't control. The only test would be test stand engines in a lab situation.

The proponent of acetone in this discussion seems to have disappeared but had promised high gains. I'm not sure why because there's no money to be made selling acetone as an additive like some other products might be sold.

I just hope Shipo's car is unharmed for his use and for whoever he sells it to. I understood he has it up for sale.

highroller

I've sold my accord after a tank of acetone, so far the person i sold it to, said everything runs fine. ill keep in touch with him on a monthly basis to see how the car is running...

shipo

If you look back at my previous posts scattered all over Edmunds you'll see that I am very much opposed to anecdotal evidence that has no scientific foundation. That having been said, in this situation I am attempting to anecdotally prove or disprove the claims of the pro Acetone folks who all but guaranteed mileage gains if Acetone was used. While I absolutely acknowledge that my test is anything but scientific (I am an engineer and very versed in the scientific process), prior to this test I had run a number of consecutive tanks where my OBC showed mileage of 22.5 plus or minus 0.2 mpg. Given that I live in a fairly rural area and have a fairly consistent usage pattern, I felt that if there were mileage gains (of up to 35% if I recall the claims correctly) to be had, I would almost surely have been able to see them. That I've realized a 1.9 mpg reduction based upon the OBC is statistically relevant to me and only to me and shouldn't be used as the basis of any proofs for or against using Acetone in ones' vehicle.

What will be even more interesting (and what I expect by the way) is if my mileage returns to pre-test levels now that I'm not adding the Acetone any longer.

To take this a step further, over the years I've invested considerable time into researching the early years of intermittent combustion technology and have read any number of scientific studies published by the likes of the NACA and SAE that show zero or negative efficacy of Acetone when used as a fuel additive. Unfortunately, given the age of the studies (some going back to the early 1920s meaning that there is no electronic "search" capability) laying my hands upon the exact studies and then finding the exact language has proven difficult/time consuming. The problem is that since TEL was my primary focus when reading such reports, my notes don't reflect where I came across Acetone references. Be assured, if/when I come across any supporting science, I'll be sure to post the relevant information.

Best Regards,
Shipo

shipo

"I just hope Shipo's car is unharmed for his use and for whoever he sells it to. I understood he has it up for sale."

Nope, not selling it just yet. I'm most likely going to flog it for another year or so in spite of the fact that I want a new one NOW. ;-)

Best Regards,
Shipo

shipo

Very interesting... In spite of some less than optimal driving conditions, this tank simply blew away all of the other tanks in this test. Sub-par conditions included my first commute during a heavy snow storm and an OBC reading of only 19.7, lots of errands over this last weekend (which reduced my OBC reading from 22.4 on Friday night to 21.6 this morning), and then freezing rain for this evenings' commute, which of course meant a very slow and very erratic (from a speed perspective) driving environment.

I guess that another way of looking at this is that now that I'm back on untainted Regular gasoline, I should easily be able to get back to my pre-Acetone test baseline of 22.5 mpg (per the OBC).

So, without further ado, the numbers:

------------- Total --------- Net --------------- AVG ------------------ Acetone --- MPG --- MPG ---- Fuel
Tank ---- Mileage ---- Miles --- E/T ---- MPH --- Gallons --- per 10g ---- OBC --- Calc ---- Brand
Start ---- 102,808
Tank1 -- 103,102 --- 294.3 --- 6:43 --- 43.82 --- 14.883 ---- 2.0 oz ------ 21.2 --- 19.77 --- Shell
Tank2 -- 103,444 --- 341.3 --- 9:36 --- 35.55 --- 17.727 ---- 2.0 oz ------ 19.7 --- 19.25 --- Shell
Tank3 -- 103,765 --- 321.6 --- 7:45 --- 41.50 --- 16.206 ---- 2.5 oz ------ 20.8 --- 19.84 --- Shell
Tank4 -- 104,109 --- 344.6 --- ?:?? --- ??.?? --- 17.907 ---- 2.5 oz ------ ??.? --- 19.24 --- Shell
Tank5 -- 104,467 --- 357.9 --- 9:08 --- 39.19 --- 17.603 ---- 3.0 oz ------ 21.2 --- 20.33 --- Shell
Tank6 -- ???,??? --- ???.? --- ?:?? --- ??.?? --- 15.593 ---- 3.0 oz ------ ??.? --- ??.?? --- Shell
Tank7 -- 105,102 --- 635.3 - 16:36 --- 38.27 --- 16.712 ---- ?.? oz ------ 20.4 --- 19.67 --- Mobil
Tank8 -- 105,468 --- 365.4 --- 9:22 --- 39.01 --- 17.842 ---- 0.0 oz ------ 21.5 --- 20.48 --- Mobil/Prem
Tank9 -- 105,825 --- 357.0 --- 9:35 --- 37.25 --- 16.839 ---- 0.0 oz ------ 22.2 --- 21.20 --- Mobil/Reg

Best Regards,
Shipo

Mr_Shiftright

It was that tank of high test I told you to run through it...cleaned out your injectors, gave you better spray pattern, and there you go!!

shipo

;-)

shipo

As I'm more than convinced that the Acetone was very much a negative with regards to my mileage, I'm calling it quits on this test. I tanked up a day or two early this evening as Mrs. Shipo needs to take my van to work tomorrow and she has a habit of filling my car up if it's anywhere below a half of a tank. So for the tenth and final tank, here are the numbers:

------------- Total --------- Net --------------- AVG ------------------ Acetone --- MPG --- MPG ---- Fuel
Tank ---- Mileage ---- Miles --- E/T ---- MPH --- Gallons --- per 10g ---- OBC --- Calc ---- Brand
Start ---- 102,808
Tank1 -- 103,102 --- 294.3 --- 6:43 --- 43.82 --- 14.883 ---- 2.0 oz ------ 21.2 --- 19.77 --- Shell
Tank2 -- 103,444 --- 341.3 --- 9:36 --- 35.55 --- 17.727 ---- 2.0 oz ------ 19.7 --- 19.25 --- Shell
Tank3 -- 103,765 --- 321.6 --- 7:45 --- 41.50 --- 16.206 ---- 2.5 oz ------ 20.8 --- 19.84 --- Shell
Tank4 -- 104,109 --- 344.6 --- ?:?? --- ??.?? --- 17.907 ---- 2.5 oz ------ ??.? --- 19.24 --- Shell
Tank5 -- 104,467 --- 357.9 --- 9:08 --- 39.19 --- 17.603 ---- 3.0 oz ------ 21.2 --- 20.33 --- Shell
Tank6 -- ???,??? --- ???.? --- ?:?? --- ??.?? --- 15.593 ---- 3.0 oz ------ ??.? --- ??.?? --- Shell
Tank7 -- 105,102 --- 635.3 - 16:36 --- 38.27 --- 16.712 ---- ?.? oz ------ 20.4 --- 19.67 --- Mobil
Tank8 -- 105,468 --- 365.4 --- 9:22 --- 39.01 --- 17.842 ---- 0.0 oz ------ 21.5 --- 20.48 --- Mobil/Prem
Tank9 -- 105,825 --- 357.0 --- 9:35 --- 37.25 --- 16.839 ---- 0.0 oz ------ 22.2 --- 21.20 --- Mobil/Reg
Tank10 -106,073 --- 248.1 --- 6:10 --- 40.23 --- 11.531 ---- 0.0 oz ------ 22.6 --- 21.52 --- Mobil/Reg

Best Regards,
Shipo

richh3399

I tried some of these new tablets that are supposed to up the fuel milegage and get a savings of 18-35%on fuel cost. Guess what it works.You might want to try them .

shipo

Pretty funny. You sign up today, make one single silly little post that is about as absurd as they come, and then disappear.

Please, don't waste our time

Best Regards,
Shipo

Mr_Shiftright

Next time people post things of that nature, you guys should ask for free samples (I can't) and test them for us (for the band of brothers, not for Edmunds I mean). That way everbody gets a fair shake about their claims.

imidazol97

I'll take a free sample of this to try.

qbrozen

good grief! put a tablet of unknown origin and unknown composition in my gas tank?? No thanks!

imidazol97

but the poster said it worked.

qbrozen

hehe.

ya know what i keep picturing is that I'm going to throw this tablet in my gas tank and it expands into a 2-foot sponge dinosaur.

highroller

if i had my old car back, i'd love to try it . Some people, like myself, rarely have a beater car to experiment with or use as an alternative source of transportation. But enough with my sad stories. I just wanted to come in and report about my sold car that i put in some acetone if some of you remember. When i asked about the car's driving condition, the guy i sold it to said it's been "driving" fine but did notice that the coolant temp gauge is relatively high but not dangerously high. As he slows down or turn on the heater, the gauge returns to normal. I dont know if the acetone or just the radiator or other things needs fixing. Radiator is supposedly be new... just wanted to share.

shipo

Sorry guys, I'm thinking that I've dodged one bullet (acetone) in my car and I ain't offering it up for another test, regardless of how promising the premise seems to be (and this pill thing seems worst than most).

Question: How do you get a two foot dinosaur sponge out of your gas tank? ;-)

Best Regards,
Shipo

hurc

Will my car preform faster if I use racing fuel?
I think it it 100 octain. Sold here at the 76 station.I have an 04ctsv. I was told it would clean off the valves and injectors. Is that true?

Mr_Shiftright

Hard to say if it will have any effect. Give it a try. If your car's engine management system will advance the timing to take advantage of 100 octane, then you might notice a little difference yes. As for cleaning anything, that depends on what additives are in the fuel. There is no "extra power" built into high octane fuel, it's a question of how evenly it burns...combustion efficiency...and how your engine is set up to take advantage of that.

So short answer....could be good, could be a complete waste of money. Best way to know? Go to your local track and try some 1/4 times with and without and see if the difference can't be explained by driver skill.

mtbiker278

Hey everyone,

I've been reading along with this thread for a while now. I thought the whole acetone test was quite interesting. Unfortunate that it proved to be only a myth, or at least for the little Shipo tested.

The only products I've ever used are the standard fuel injector cleaners and such. Nothing really promising increase mileage or anything. Well I didn't expect to see any big gains anyway. Being some what of a gear head I came up with an idea, but I have no clue whether or not it would work.

On the market are Air/fuel ratio monitors/controllers that you can buy as a performance upgrade for your car. Basically what they do is monitor the oxygen content of your exhaust and adjust the engine ECU fuel curve. As far as I know it doesn't really give any indication of fuel consumption, but if you paired it with Shipo's OBC you could have something useful. In theory, as with most claims about fuel savings and such, you could reduce your fuel curve and sacrifice some performance by leaning out the combustion mixture. This in turn could reduce your overall fuel consumption and increase your MPG.

For some of the articles I've read before on performance magazines and such, car manufacturers tend to set-up the ECU to run a little rich so it is more likely to get combustion.

Any thoughts on this?

shipo

"Any thoughts on this?"

Yes actually, quite a few. That having been said, I'm going to have to wait to get home before I can formulate them into a coherent post.

In the meantime I'll leave y'all with one parting comment:

It is my educated but never-the-less personally belief that the combustion process has been well understood from a scientific perspective since long before most/all of us were born. Said another way, I am personally highly suspicious of any and all claims to improve the fuel economy of any given car (unless said claims came from the manufacturer of the car itself). Why? Simply because the manufacturers have it in their best interest to build the most economical car possible and to that end they spend many millions of R&D dollars (billions collectively over the years) searching for better ways of burning fuel. With that in mind, the likelihood of some magic bullet for fuel economy being developed by an individual, a small company or even a group of yahoos who get together on the internet is… Well, let's just say it's very remote.

Another word of caution; my Acetone Test is anecdotal at best and should NEVER be used as the basis of any study or even serious discussion on the subject. If someone wants an authoritative source to quote on the issue, I'll personally refer them to the scientific archives of the SAE or even the old NACA (precursor of NASA) for material.

Best Regards,
Shipo

mtbiker278

While I understand that the car manufacturers have it in their best interest to produce the most efficient vehicle possible, and it is rather unlikely that something concocted on a diner napkin with produce significant fuel gains, I still believe anything mass produced can be made better to an extent. I never promised that altering a fuel curve would magically give you MPG. I was merely trying to discuss the theoretical aspects of what the possible outcomes would be if the fuel curve were changed.

If I really wanted to be the devil's advocate I'd say that the car manufacturers are in co hoots with the oil companies and the government and it's all a big conspiracy.

cholt

If you are interested in reading about the BioPerformance Fuel Additive go to www.jrholt.mybpbiz.com. You can read the ingredients, the testimonials and if anyone is interested in trying it, we have both pills and powder form. Powder is recommended for diesel engines. What we do is dissolve the powder in diesel before putting it in the tank. I'm getting better mileage and my diesel jetta is running smoother. You can tell a difference in 3 or 4 tanks.

imidazol97

Another one. Just signed on today. Only post is here!

Please send me a free sample. I'll be happy to check it out. Email address is in my profile--just read to the end.

vcheng

gagrice

Too bad there is no link on google to the parent company. Only members in the pyramid that are trying to get others to support them. Smells of a scam to me. I prefer the smell of bio-diesel, just like fried chicken, hmmmmm good.

cholt

I wish I could send out free samples to everyone. It costs me to buy them though and I can't afford to give them away. I can sell them to you at cost if you would like to try them. You don't have to buy the whole bottle. I can send you enough to try for 3 tanks if you would like. They suggest that you double the dose on the first 3 tanks then after that you either do 1 pill per 15 gallons or 1 tsp of powder per 15 gallons. Diesel they recommend you use the powder. I have both to try.

cholt

www.bioperformance.com

The links that you see are to each distributors personal websites. And yes, that is what is given out because we are trying to make a living selling them.

If you think it's a scam just don't do it. I like to help people out and it really does work so it's your choice.

shipo

Folks might just as well fill their tanks with bilge water as with the crap on those pills.

FWIW, it is against the membership agreement YOU acknowledged, to peddle your wares here.

FWIW-2, most of us here are educated enough to know a scam when we see one, and this one smells scamier than most.

gagrice

www.bioperformance.com

That link does not seem to work. I traced it as far as NY City and it comes up a dead-end. Interesting for a company that is supposed to be out of Dallas.

You say you are trying to help people. I am trying to do the same. I am skeptical of all pyramid schemes and this is a typical PYRAMID scheme. I hope you did not mortgage the home to get in.

cholt

Hmmm ok. So sorry to have bothered you.

gagrice

17 out of 100 Americans get scammed by MLM schemes. Sad facts.

MLM Myth

Pyramid scams

ndygoo

That makes sense. If anyone else would be so brave as to conduct a test with the pills, I'd be willing to supply them at no cost.

So far, the dinosaur sponge hasn't been a problem.

highroller

you are giving away free supplies??? i wonder if i can use this stuff on my lawn mower..

Mr_Shiftright

Why do you want better gas mileage on your lawn mower? Do you use it to commute?

gagrice

Wasn't there a good movie about a guy riding his lawnmower cross country?

vcheng

http://www.latimes.com/news/nationworld/nation/la-sci-briefs4.7mar04,1,1547847.s- - tory?coll=la-headlines-nation&ctrack=1&cset=true

If the link doesn't work, here is the gist of the message:

Those wacky Japanese scientists are at it again. Tokyo-based researchers at the Tokyo University of Agriculture and Technology have announced that they've discovered a new source of gasoline - Cow dung. No Bullsh*t.

Professor Sakae Shibusawa of the Tokyo University of Agriculture and Technology is reporting that he and his associates have figured out how to... ummm... extract .42 ounces of gas from every 3.5 ounces of cow patties using heat and high pressure. As Japan produces about 551,000 tons of manure per year, this could turn out to be a less-than-trivial discovery.

Scientists hope to improve the technology to the point that the process can be made commercially viable within the next half-decade.

[Source: The Los Angeles Times]

highroller

Lol, i just want to try it out, probably make my lawnmower start up faster, not ....

mtbiker278

Those wacky Japanese scientists are at it again. Tokyo-based researchers at the Tokyo University of Agriculture and Technology have announced that they've discovered a new source of gasoline - Cow dung. No Bullsh*t.

I saw another article where waste management in San Francisco is using pet waste in a similar fashion to produce methane for power plants.

Here it is:"Poo Power

Just think what could be done if they combined this with the sewage system!

highroller

That's a load of good cr*p there. They are thinking outside of the box.

justdoitnow

Hey Gagrice......try the right link my friend it's http://www.bioperformancefuelusa.com and then try the product your attitude might change...."See You @ The Pump" :shades: