Did you recently take on (or consider) a loan of 84 months or longer on a car purchase?
A reporter would like to speak with you about your experience; please reach out to PR@Edmunds.com by 7/25 for details.
A reporter would like to speak with you about your experience; please reach out to PR@Edmunds.com by 7/25 for details.
Options
Comments
"believing a chemist who says don't do it."
And just who signs this chemist's pay check? :P
2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,
Howdy, generally people who are self sufficient enough to try acetone are the kind of people who hold onto there old vehicles forever. Maybe because they run forever instead of going to an early grave, uh, scrap yard. We don't need to worry what happens when we sell it, because we run them until the body and/or chassis falls apart. At which point no one is going to buy it any ways. :sick:
Thanks for reminding me about the cats. Since we are burning more of the fuel as energy instead of just burning it as waste heat in the cat, the cat can take a nap on a shelf in the garage, and still have lower emissions than the non-believers.
Anecdotal, maybe, but consistent savings I'm willing to keep in my pocket every time, for every vehicle I've tried it on. :P
Why is something considered anecdotal when everyone who has actually tried it has had success. You never hear from someone who has tried it correctly and not gotten good results. You only hear that it doesn't work from those who won't try it, or who don't want you to try it. Isn't that what they call a self fulfilling prophecy?
And what's up with that slur about not being scientifically accurate. Measuring out .20 - .25 ounces per gallon and then figuring miles/gallons for MPG. That's 6th grade math, even for public school grads. :P
By the way, have any of your buds at the dept. tried it in a diesel. I'm in the process of buying a couple OTR rigs for a container route between Columbus, OH & Chicago, planning on trying it on them as well.
Thanks
One has straight diesel and the other had acetone added?
I'll skip the acetone!
expect an avalanche of "buy OrblSlop (tm) NOW before the storm hits, triple your mileage and a free house with every bottle" ads.
I have accord 2002 SE, bought new. I am getting 22 miles / galon in city and 23 in freeway. Is there anyway I can get better milage?
Thanks,
sharanmini
That's certainly a slam at a whole class of people...
2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,
"anecdotal" isn't a put-down. Anecdotal means the results have not been subjected to rigorous scientific testing. You would be AMAZED at how a person's desire for a result will produce that result. Also, their testing methods can easily skew a result, as can their unconscious driving habits. Also the length of time they test is important, atmospheric conditions, and where they drive.
It's not up to the skeptic to refute astronomical claims....as Carl Sagan used to say "extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence".
Basically what I'm hearing and forgive me if this is wrong, but what I'm hearing is that "acetone is the solution to the entire world's energy crisis but people are too stupid to use it".
Now that's a helluva claim.
make sure your tires are inflated properly. second, make sure you have a clean engine air filter. if you are speeding on the HWY, slow down. ask a mechanic to determine if you have any problem with the plugs. your O2 sensors or CAT convertor may be failing to perform properly. i suppose i'd run a bottle of injector cleaner on a full tank of gas.
and as far as "And I had my choice of two fire engines coming to my rescue.
One has straight diesel and the other had acetone added?
I'll skip the acetone!" well buddie, you would never know which one it was, cuz you wouldn't have a choice on what one was sent to ya.... lol
But if i recall right, there was a similar debate about bio-diesel, saying it would tear your engine up and all that jazz, there were supposed to have been "chemists" that said the same thing, it would tear it all up and so on, but now you see bio-diesel stations starting to pop up here and there.. several were opened in Houston TX. recently... BUt who knows, maybe one day my truck will blow up from the acetone in it.. if it does then i will just get a motorcycle....lol
and agree with Mr_Shiftright, this is debating, "a class i sucked at in high school...lol" not an arguement....lol
we're about to find out how much gas we can put in gulf seawater........
The argument against acetone is scientifically sound in my opinion and the claims for it are rather hyperbolic to say the least---I would say impossible.
As far as I'm willing to believe? That would be a) yes, you may indeed see a small improvement in fuel mileage, and b) yes indeed you may screw something up in the injection system.
That's how I feel at the moment.
The "skeptic" after all, is not the cynic. The skeptic keeps changing his mind as new information is processed and evaluated. The people to be more wary of are the ones who never change their minds and who don't look for evidence that might contradict their beliefs.
I'm open to having my mind changed, but at any given point in time I have to hang my hat on the opinion of the moment....which is...I'm not putting it in my gas tank.
If anybody wants to LEND me a car to test it, I'm ready!
Ok, so you would try it if I lent you a car to try it with? That implies that you are not adverse to trying it, you just don't want to risk it on your new Lambergini?
Well maybe I can't lend you a car, but if you had a car that was only worth say 500 bucks, wouldn't that be pretty much the same thing?
And since I have stated that the vehicles that I have tried it out on so far are in that price range, isn't that pretty much what I have done?
I just got a fresh Edmunds estimate on the value of my car:
Trade-In $265 Private Sale $796 Split the diff it's about $530
So over the last 20,000 miles of testing at about $2.50 average gas price with a MPG savings of about 22%, hey, I've already saved the entire value of my car!!!
So isn't that kinda like someone GAVE ME a car to test it on? :P
All I and others have done is report our results after a reasonable test.
I haven't burst into flames, if you don't count the flamewar that seems to want to burst out for trying to have a simple discussion.
:sick: My car isn't dead on the side of the road leaking fluids. :lemon:
I just have a little extra money in my pocket, and it's not from SELLING any Snake Oil. It's from NOT having to put so much gas in my tank.
Isn't that kinda the purpose of a Fuel & Oil Additives forum? It's not like I've gone around to every single forum and posted the gospel of ACETONE to the unbelievers everywhere. -HEAR the WORD of the LOUD-
I'll be quiet now, I'll just sit over here and play with my money. :P
So we are all expected to believe that the immeidate cheap, harmless and simple solution to the entire world's energy crisis, and a means for each and every American to lower his fuel bill perhaps thousands of dollars per year, and a startling simiple alternative to solar, wind, hybrid and atomic energy, all of which are now rendered useless by acetone, has been just sitting there for years but nobody has seized upon it?
That is massive,shocking, and rather incredible as we are talking about a solution worth hundreds of billions, no TRILLIONS of dollars to the global economy.....and nobody knows but a chosen few?
So you see our problem....
2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,
Shhhh, quiet, keep it down.
We don't want everyone to find out.
Oh, and that isn't a chosen few, it is the choosing few.
I'm paying around 20% less on average for my little fleet of older work trucks, but I still get the full per mile deduction on my taxes!
With the milk run container truck route I am buying I'll have a big advantage over everyone else. I should start gobbling up a bunch of small outfits within a year.
Yet another business in my pocket that is taking off beyond my expectations. Because I have been willing to ignore the skeptics and give something a try.
Yee Haa! I think I'll go play with my money some more. :P
So, help me out here, what have you substituted for your fuel lines, seals, and o-rings, technerd, to fight off the effects acetone has on OEM materials?
'11 GMC Sierra 1500; '98 Alfa 156 2.0TS; '08 Maser QP; '67 Coronet R/T; '13 Fiat 500c; '20 S90 T6; '22 MB Sprinter 2500 4x4 diesel; '97 Suzuki R Wagon; '96 Opel Astra; '11 Mini Cooper S
'11 GMC Sierra 1500; '98 Alfa 156 2.0TS; '08 Maser QP; '67 Coronet R/T; '13 Fiat 500c; '20 S90 T6; '22 MB Sprinter 2500 4x4 diesel; '97 Suzuki R Wagon; '96 Opel Astra; '11 Mini Cooper S
But I think putting acetone in a new vehicle is darn near a death-wish (for the car I mean).
MY EXPERIMENT: Last tankful, I jacked up the air pressure 3-4 lbs, in my BRAND NEW tires, got a wheel alignment, and I'm now driving by starting out in 2nd gear only (my car doesn't need first gear). I think already I'm seeing a conspicuous jump in fuel mileage. I'll let you know how I'm doing.
I also started eating french fries when this mileage increase started, so I see a connection here.
Basically nothing, don't need to. This isn't rocket science. The technical website indicates detrimental effects when tested at 100% concentrations and it does not indicate the timeframe for material deterioration. 10 seconds or 10 years it doesn't say. I am not using 100% concentrations, it is extremely diluted!
Best case at 2oz/10gal = 2.0/(10*128) = 2.0/1028 = 1/514.00
Worst case at 3oz/10gal = 3.0/(10*128) = 3.0/1028 = 1/342.67
To be safe, most of my construction vehicles have dual fuel tanks with only one tank being treated. The drivers know to switch over to the untreated fuel before shutting the engine down. Side note: they don't know why the fuel is treated, they have only been told it's an engine cleaner for older vehicles (that blind testing thing). This way any parts that MAY BE sensitive are exposed for a limited time. This reduces the full time exposure to just two fittings, one at the gas tank and one at the switchover valve. These are easily checked every six months and cheaply replaceable. I'm not gonna worry about the downstream parts until I see damage on the full time exposure items.
These are high daily mileage vehicles, I go through a lot of fuel. The fuel cost savings greatly greatly greatly make up for any cheap minor parts that I have yet to see any damage on.
And again, I am talking about cheap older vehicles. I am not putting acetone in anything newer then 10 years old. My fuel savings are paying for the vehicles over just a few years and in the case of a few after less then a year. When I have a couple years of experience I will start using it on new vehicles, again with regular maintenance checks on possibly sensitive parts.
These are very simple things to check in any home garage. I happen to have my own shop to maintain my vehicles. With a big lift and an even bigger Snap-On Tool bill, an-ever-thin. :shades:
And again, I have been researching this on the web a long time now, I haven't found reference to anyone anywhere who has had problems with parts going bad. The only people saying bad things will happen have no actual experience trying it.
I'm not doing this blindly in a state of pseudo religious frenzy.
It boils down to there are some people who will take careful controlled chances and try something different. And when they find something that works, they will have an economic advantage over their competition. And then there are other people, the majority, who will wait for a blessing down from on high. From someone in a spotless white lab coat backed up by an army of lab coats after 20 years of testing, all paid for by an industry that will lose money if it works. Don't hold your breath.
Signed by the nice altruistic guy.
The greedy business guy in me says don't try it, don't tell anyone else about it.
I love having a significant economic advantage over my competition.
Don't bother me while I'm playing with my money. :P
2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,
So since you have been researching it so long and just KNOW it works and its safe, can you please point me to a true experiment, including a control group, in which this was tested over the LONGTERM and shown to have no adverse effects on a vehicle? Oh, you can't? Gee, I guess that's what those guys in the white jackets are for, huh?
Look, I'm not trying to tell you if it works or not. I'm asking for the proof. Your personal and flawed experiment means nothing. There are plenty of people who smoke a pack a day and live to be 100, does that mean smoking is good for you? By your logic, it does.
Go ahead and keep checking those fittings. Personally, they are about the last thing I'd worry about. What I'd be worried about are the seals and hoses. Nothing quite like having fuel burst all over a hot manifold. Maybe you won't be quite so happy when all that money you are saving now is lost, along with your house and business, to a poor worker who gets burned because of this experiment you are using his/her life to test out without their knowledge.
'11 GMC Sierra 1500; '98 Alfa 156 2.0TS; '08 Maser QP; '67 Coronet R/T; '13 Fiat 500c; '20 S90 T6; '22 MB Sprinter 2500 4x4 diesel; '97 Suzuki R Wagon; '96 Opel Astra; '11 Mini Cooper S
Back to our regular program.
2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,
I think there's a perception problem here between short term and long term.
Let's say that adding acetone DOES increase your fuel mileage---let's just presume that to be true.
Well then you get an immediate short term benefit...bingo...gas pump says you're "saving gas".
So after a couple of years you have some problem with injectors or fuel pump, and you replace those.
But you don't charge that against the gas you saved, since you consider repairs just "maintenance costs", not fuel costs.
The problem is, who's to say how long your injectors or fuel pump might have lasted without acetone attacking them?
I would say that all fuel system failures should be charged against the fuel bill if you're using acetone unless you can show that the component went through a complete life cycle.
Yes I would consider fuel system repair costs part of the cost of my fuel savings experiment. I'll even give you the benefit of the doubt that the failure was due to the acetone and not normal wear & tear. However I then get to balance that against not having to repair other, more expensive items, like a valve job and spark plugs that arn't fouling becuase of the unburnt gas building up carbon.
I just priced out the parts that are at risk, for a typical truck, say my '95 Ford F150 V8, it comes in at just under a $125 bucks. This particular truck over the last two years has put on about 23k miles a year with a base MPG of about 14, with a MPG improvement of 18.7%. Based on $2.50 gas, annual fuel cost before would be $4,107. Annual fuel cost after $3,338 for a savings of $768. I can replace the at risk parts 6 times a year and still be ahead of the game. And since it hasn't happened yet, the replacement interval is getting better every day.
This is simple math, you don't need a PHD to do basic research.
I don't have several million to pay for what some of you consider a minimum controlled experiment. I am willing to test it to the best of my ability. And I am doing SOMETHING. I am not content to just heckle from the sidelines of life.
Just replacing the intake manifold gasket alone (parts & labor) blows that $125 right out of the water. Might want to check those numbers again. And, heck, that's not even a tough job compared to replacing injectors!
'11 GMC Sierra 1500; '98 Alfa 156 2.0TS; '08 Maser QP; '67 Coronet R/T; '13 Fiat 500c; '20 S90 T6; '22 MB Sprinter 2500 4x4 diesel; '97 Suzuki R Wagon; '96 Opel Astra; '11 Mini Cooper S
Uh...
Make up your mind, you said right in your post "injectors" that means fuel injection not a carburetor. That means injected, not sucked in past the intake manifold gasket. Have you even seen an intake manifold gasket? If it's old enough to have a carburetor it uses a deforming metal gasket.
And I'll stick by my cost, rebuilt fuel pump, injector o-ring kit, fuel rail gasket kit, pressure regulator seals and gas line fittings.
And injectors is one of the advantages of testing it on old trucks, fewer at risk parts. I only have three vehicles with injectors that I am testing on right now. That's what the 6 month maintenance cycle is for, to look for developing problems.
And I said I have my own shop, remember, my labor expense is two or three band-aids for my skinned knuckles and a six pack of my favorite beverage. Do you want me to post my ridiculously high Snap-On Tool bill to prove it? And I get my parts thru my shop with a really nice discount.
Oh, I did finally find someone who had problems using acetone. On some fuel pumps there is a nylon mesh, kinda like a bag after the fuel pump back by the tank. It's called a sock by everyone I know. When the acetone, acting as a fuel system cleaner, dissolved the built up gum from cheap gas, it broke loose, clogging up this guys sock. Pop it loose, back flush, good as new. (Along with casting aspersions upon the ancestry of the engineer who designed the questionable placement of the fuel pump.) Nylon is on the list that plays well together with acetone. But this would have happened with any fuel system cleaner!
Still looking for anybody anywhere with parts actually dissolving.
Still playing with my money. :P
And, yes, I've replaced manifold gaskets when replacing head gaskets. I honestly don't remember what they were made of because its been many years since I did such a job. I seem to remember everything but the exhaust manifold gasket being some type of cardboard-like fiber.
Ok, you have your own shop, great. I work on my own cars, too. But I most certainly count my time as part of the equation. My time isn't free. There have been MANY occasions where I allow a shop to do the work for me because I decide their estimate is the same or cheaper than I calculate my time to be worth.
By the way, you never commented on my comment regarding your employees' safety. I hope you have good insurance, but that still doesn't make up for you putting them at risk without their knowledge. Don't you think you should at least let them know they are driving a vehicle that is running a fuel mixture it was not designed for that could possibly result in a fire?
'11 GMC Sierra 1500; '98 Alfa 156 2.0TS; '08 Maser QP; '67 Coronet R/T; '13 Fiat 500c; '20 S90 T6; '22 MB Sprinter 2500 4x4 diesel; '97 Suzuki R Wagon; '96 Opel Astra; '11 Mini Cooper S
to your gasoline for better gas mileage" but it is definitely a bad idea.
Fuel economy is essentially a function of the BTUs/gallon of a fuel.
Gasoline has about 127,000 BTUs/gallon. Acetone has only 81,500
BTUs/gallon. So, the claim of improved fuel economy is a false one.
I'd also be concerned about the emissions impact of acetone in the fuel and
it's well know solvent characteristics. Acetone and chemicals in the same
class are used as paint removers. I'd be concerned that the presence of
acetone would soften or even dissolve rubber fuel lines, O rings, and
gaskets in the fuel system, leading to leaks and the potential for fires.
I hope this information is helpful.
Thank you for contacting ExxonMobil.
Julia Cool
Exxon Mobil Corporation
To my mind, scientific studies carry far more weight than any wildly optimistic anecdotal claims to the contrary.
Best Regards,
Shipo
It's not just about BTUs/gal it's also about how much of available BTU's are actually converted to energy -vs- how much goes out the exhaust. Example: Coal, after converting units, has between 28,000 - 120,000 BTU's per gallon, but when burnt in it's natural form only about 25% of the available BTU's are released as usable energy. There is a new process that uses a plasma to convert coal into a gas, but it still only gives you about 75% of the original BTU's as energy, the other 25% is used up in the conversion process.
Not all of the BTUs in gasoline are converted to energy. Gasoline burnt as a liquid releases less energy than a gasoline vapor. Auto manufacturers have been working real hard to get the gasoline to more fully vaporise. It's one of the main reasons for fuel injection.
Fuel economy is increased because acetone 1) Increases the octane level and 2) it Decreases the surface tension of gasoline so that more of it vaporizes and burns, releasing more energy. You are correct it does not increase available BTUs, it leverages the existing BTUs so that more energy is released.
Emissions are actually reduced because of the reduced unburned hydrocarbons.
Acetone is naturally occurring: Definition of Acetone
Acetone: In the body, a chemical that is formed when the body uses fat instead of glucose (sugar) for energy. The formation of acetone means that cells lack insulin or cannot effectively use available insulin to burn glucose for energy. Acetone passes through the body into the urine as one of the so-called ketone bodies. Acetone is highly volatile. The breath of someone with a great deal of acetone in the body smells fruity and is called "acetone breath."
All those carb counting dieters out there are destroying the world with acetone.
The sticking points of the issue are:
1) That no matter how many people have succes it is considered anecdotal by those who don't want to accept our results. (I'd hate to be the 1st 10,000 guys to use the wheel around this crowd).
2) The caustic effect on some materials.
I can't do anything about those who refuse to believe until it is blessed by a synod of techno-priests.
I can work to eliminate problems with sensative materials. Primarily because it is being diluted at better then 500 to 1. Fuel lines for the most part are metal. O-rings and gaskets can be replaced with different material substitutes. But I have yet to find anyone anywhere who has had an actual problem.
The cold hard cash in my pockets (well actually room temperature crisp paper) and the lack of problems for every vehicle I have tried it on is proof enough to me.
I enjoy working on these kinds of projects, I suppose you pay someone to watch the TV for you, well if you have kids I guess you do.
They are told that a strong fuel system/engine cleaner is being used, which it is. And to keep their eyes and noses open for any problems and that one of those problems is a fire hazard. And they are given the option of whether I test it on the vehicle that has been assigned to them or not. I have still to find anybody anywhere having any problems, let alone a fire.
And after their 5th or 6th full tank of gas I show them the results anyways. Then I watch the next 5 or 6 tanks to see if knowing has any effect on MPG. You didn't really think I could resist telling them now did you?
I've already boosted my MPG by 1.5- to 2 mpg by driving a little differently, that is, like one of your drivers for instance.
Acetone, Toulene, moth balls, cow magnets, air intake spinners...
Yeah...right..!! ***yawn***
While I sleep, he can play with his money some more....