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Great advise. That's what I tell people who have tried to trick me into attending an Amway meeting.
Mr. Shiftright, that's exactly what I was thinking before I became a dealer for the product...what you said was almost verbatim to what I said,
I gotta ask, though, because I either missed or ignored the original post that was eventually deleted .... someone at least tell me if this is an additive or device? And, if additive, and, as the host mentioned, it costs the price of dinner and a movie (is that for 1 person or 2?), then please tell me how long the additive lasts? Because, if I think of this in terms of money .... dinner and a movie, even for one person, is about $30 these days .... so .... lesseee .... 1 tank of gas? The whole thing only costs me $30.
'11 GMC Sierra 1500; '98 Alfa 156 2.0TS; '08 Maser QP; '67 Coronet R/T; '13 Fiat 500c; '20 S90 T6; '22 MB Sprinter 2500 4x4 diesel; '97 Suzuki R Wagon; '96 Opel Astra; '11 Mini Cooper S
If you drove the car for 5,000 miles and recorded fuel mileage, and then drove 5,000 miles with the magic additive using the same fuel on the same roads, then you might have something...otherwise you don't have anything but statistical variations based on too short a measuring time and driver habits.
I made up that "dinner and a movie" price---I don't know what it costs, because when I heard the claims I knew immediately that it couldn't possibly do that.
The deletion wasn't for content but for "soliciting" (selling something on Edmunds). You can't do that, even for a legitimate product.
'11 GMC Sierra 1500; '98 Alfa 156 2.0TS; '08 Maser QP; '67 Coronet R/T; '13 Fiat 500c; '20 S90 T6; '22 MB Sprinter 2500 4x4 diesel; '97 Suzuki R Wagon; '96 Opel Astra; '11 Mini Cooper S
Nevertheless, what do you use currently, if any?
I think if the stuff is so great, they should sell one bottle to everyone at cost. THEN start charging more. Ya know, like crack dealers.
'11 GMC Sierra 1500; '98 Alfa 156 2.0TS; '08 Maser QP; '67 Coronet R/T; '13 Fiat 500c; '20 S90 T6; '22 MB Sprinter 2500 4x4 diesel; '97 Suzuki R Wagon; '96 Opel Astra; '11 Mini Cooper S
'11 GMC Sierra 1500; '98 Alfa 156 2.0TS; '08 Maser QP; '67 Coronet R/T; '13 Fiat 500c; '20 S90 T6; '22 MB Sprinter 2500 4x4 diesel; '97 Suzuki R Wagon; '96 Opel Astra; '11 Mini Cooper S
Over the years I've heard any number of claims regarding the latest means of improving economy, ranging from friction reducers in the oil (won't work because internal friction is already very near zero in a healthy broken in engine) to devices that lean out the fuel mixture (lots of reasons why that won't work) to vials of bilge water produced from a child's chemistry set (which is where this latest miracle of science sounds like it came from).
So, since there is only a finite amount of combustive power in any given unit of fuel, what is it exactly that this stuff is purporting to do? My bet is that in the final analysis, the inventor won't be able to answer that question. Speaking of the inventor, I'm curious to know the patent number said inventor was granted, being a patent holder myself, I'm fairly adept at reading patents so if you provide the patent number maybe we can strip away the layers of subterfuge and see this product for what it really is.
FWIW, I don't use any additives of any sort, for fuel or oil; even so, our 1998 Dodge Grand Caravan averaged 17.4 miles per gallon on a 2,000 mile road trip shortly after we bought it in 1998. Last week I completed a 2,400 mile road trip which included a considerable amount of urban driving (unlike the first trip) in both Chicago and New York, and HEY!, I got nearly 23 miles per gallon on this most recent trip. Hmmm, a better than 5 mpg improvement.
So, what was the difference? A/C? Nope, it was heavily used for both trips. Loading? Nope, the van was loaded to the gills for both trips. Mountains and urban traffic? Nope, if anything the roads were much flatter and traffic was much lighter on the first trip. So, how did I get such good mileage this time? The only explanation that I can come up with that makes any sense is that the engine had less than 5,000 miles on it in 1998 and it had over 90,000 miles on it this time. I've always heard that as engines age they tend to improve their mileage a tad. Yeah, I know, "thin".
Best Regards,
Shipo
'11 GMC Sierra 1500; '98 Alfa 156 2.0TS; '08 Maser QP; '67 Coronet R/T; '13 Fiat 500c; '20 S90 T6; '22 MB Sprinter 2500 4x4 diesel; '97 Suzuki R Wagon; '96 Opel Astra; '11 Mini Cooper S
I mean, I'm not a chemist or anything, but knowing what I know of how an engine works, I don't see what you can add to your gas to force your engine to inject LESS gasoline into the air/fuel mixture that is sucked/pushed into the engine's cylinders. Its as simple as that. (unless, as shipo explained, you put in 12 gallons of fuel and 1 gallon of water in your tank .... and that will clean your engine, too, right? LOL!)
'11 GMC Sierra 1500; '98 Alfa 156 2.0TS; '08 Maser QP; '67 Coronet R/T; '13 Fiat 500c; '20 S90 T6; '22 MB Sprinter 2500 4x4 diesel; '97 Suzuki R Wagon; '96 Opel Astra; '11 Mini Cooper S
If the claims were in the realm of reason, I'd take the time to do the research....but really, the claims are, with all due respect to you,.....fanciful in the extreme.
What you are proposing is that this product will deliver the most earth-shattering discovery of the 21st century, a rival actually to atomic power in the ability to radically alter the dynamics of energy-production in the world.
Historians will call 2005 part of the "Oil Age". Given that premise, what would they make of a simple cheap additive that would increase fuel economy by 25-35-50%???
They would call it a miracle.
And it would HAVE to be, literally a miracle....why? Because miracles are, by definition, events which do not follow the natural laws of the universe.
I have a "little" chemistry background. I'm open to research and I haven't been shown any. Based on all physico/chemical laws I learned in graduate school the product probably operates by the transfer method...
That is, it transfers wealth from the buyer's pocket to the seller's.
I'll ask my old graduate school roomie who has just retired from a major oil-related company which is of the type who would have bought rights to a product if it really existed in a heartbeat...
Don't leave the lights on waiting for a good response.
2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,
I would like to get 26 MPG instead of 19 MPG from my GMC PU Truck.
Here's a look at the Enviromax "science" as quoted from their website: I see a lot of problems already, but you judge for yourself.
Q: How Does Enviro-Max Plus (EMP) Work?
A. When EMP is incorporated into a fuel mixture, it enables combustion to occur at lower temperatures, resulting in a more complete burn of all types of fuel. When fuel burns better, the result is reduced emissions and increased horsepower. This improved burning of your fuel will prevent carbon deposit build-up in the combustion chamber of an engine, and actually facilitates the removal of existing deposits of carbon. Many people will notice their Spark Plugs will be cleaner and last longer. By producing less carbon in your engine, your oil will also stay cleaner longer. Cleaner Spark Plugs and Cleaner Oil will result in a significant reduction in tune-ups and oil changes.
How do people write this fantasy with a straight face! But then how do people believe it...
It's like stories in some other discussions about people being sold $1500 extended GMPP Warranty for $2900 when the sales people have them away from information sources to learn the real price or value.
Save your money folks. Buy brand name gasolines; use 87 if that's what your car manufacturer says it will run on. Throw in a $5 bottle of a good fuel system cleaner/injector cleaner maybe at 10000 miles and be happy.
I've noticed a few network TV stories about using the right gas for your car and not using extra octane even though it's advertised as better. They showed clips of old advertisements about high price/higher octane fuels being better. If you feel need to waste money on additives, Tornadoes, premium fuels when GM doesn't say it was designed to use it, please send the extra money to me at wasteit@dontbeafool.edm and I'll do a special blessing for your auto. It's guaranteed to have the same overall effect. Please include picture of your car for my bulletin board for blessing service. My dartboard broke when it fell off the wall.
2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,
If you add a $5 additive to 10 gallons of gas, that is an additional 50 cents per gallon. If gas is $2 per gallon that means you would need to get at least 20% improvement to break even. If your car gets without the additive 20 MPG it would have to get 25 MPG. So to be ahead with the additive you would need an improvement of over 20%.
If it was sold by a dealer that I know will be around if it does not work, I would be more inclined to try it.
PS
I had Cod Liver Oil every morning and hated it. Was it sold by a MLM scheme?
I mean, think about what you are saying, or rather, not you, but what the makers of this product are claiming.
Here we are in a world desperate for solutions to fossil fuel consumption and emissions control, and here's this bottle of ....something....that is suggesting it will give you 35% better gas mileage (that is more than one third btw) and reduce emissions 80%.
Now what that tells me is the hundreds of millions of dollars spent to develop space-age engine management systems, and the equally huge sums spent by Toyota to develop the Prius hybrid system, were really not at all necessary. All we had to do was add Environmax to our fuel tanks and we would not only meet, but vastly....VASTLY exceed the gains made by all the engineers of all the carmakers in all the world.
Ahem..........if my response to such claims make me "cranky" well so be it.
Really one doesn't need to "try" a product making claims like this, any more than one needs to try a pill that will make you fly. You kinda sorta know this isn't for real, strictly by the hyperbolic nature of the claims themselves.
Had Environmax claimed 1 mpg improvement and a temporary drop in some forms of emissions for a limited time during a smog test, I might have tried it, because those are claims that I know can be achieved by products already on the market.
Not one single compelling shred of anything that would make me even remotely think about buying this stuff. Wait! I found the patent number there, 5,266,082, cool, I looked it up.
Okay, for starters, it's a minimum of 90% kerosene (95%-99% per the MSDS), with the remainder being comprised of a witches brew of metal oxides (Iron, Zinc, Magnesium, Copper, Cobalt, Ruthenium, Osmium, and Palladium), aromatics, alcohol (various types), and naphthalene and/or biphenyl.
As a general statement, in my semi-learned opinion, that patent isn't worth the paper it is printed on as it is so general and vague. Case in point, it has a total of 64 claims and sub-claims, many of which are quite contradictory to others. Couple said vagueness with the fact that I've seen virtually all of these listed components and formulations referenced in research that dates back to the early 1920 and I say, "Yawn! Nothing new here." My first impression is that the "Inventor" read all of the fuel specific research from the NACA (the direct ancestor to NASA), the SAE and other standards organizations and simply compiled a list of everything already tried into a recipe that effectively says, "Take a little of A and a little of B, or a little of A and a little of C, or a little of B and a little of C and D..." You get the idea.
Final comment #1: Virtually all of the formulations in the patent require some amount of alcohol, which as many of you know is a compound that will readily mix with water and has for years been used as a drying agent for the various fuels for combustion engines. Personally I cannot think of a single time that I’ve needed a drying agent in any of my many cars. Now, if you’re talking about an airplane that has been sitting on a ramp for a few months without being taken out for a spin AND if sub-zero weather is forecast, then yes, I might be inclined to add a little alcohol (per the FAA) to the fuel tanks of that airplane.
Final comment #2: Based upon literally hundreds of hours of pouring over the aforementioned NACA and SAE libraries of research, I've learned that each of the listed components have been tried (singly as well as in combination with others) and discarded, either because of zero efficacy or some other negative side effect. Would I put them in my car? Not a chance.
Final comment #3: Regarding the assertion that this additive causes an engine to run cooler and cleaner Yeah, Horse Hockey! Ever since the intermittent combustion engine was invented it has been known that running an engine cooler than its design specification would lead to a dirtier engine. They then "Prove" this point in several ways, one of which shows a dirty spark plug (allegedly from a normal "Untreated" engine) being inserted into a "Treated" engine, and after a few moments, out it comes perfectly clean. Pure fiction. Modern engines are equipped with ignition systems that in concert with modern fuel are able to keep the sparkplugs (and entire combustion chamber) perfectly clean. A number of posts ago I referenced our old 1998 Dodge Caravan with over 90,000 miles and how it is now getting the best mileage of its life. Guess what? It still has the factory spark plugs. Gosh, I guess they would have to be quite dirty if I was to believe the drivel from the EnviroBilge web site as they have only been fed a steady diet of Regular gasoline for their entire life. At my current rate of driving that van will step over the 100,000 mile mark in October or November, and I will be sure to keep the plugs, photograph them and post a link where they can be seen. My bet is that they will be far cleaner than the "Cleaned" plug shown on that silly "Test".
Best Regards,
Shipo
It's the same idea I used to test for alcohol in gasoline. 10 ml. H20, 100 ml. gasoline. Shake. Check volume of water portion which now contains most of the alcohol and has expanded almost proportionally to the alcohol it has extracted from the gasoline. This was before the Ohio Attorney General's office required gas pumps to be labeled with a tiny label saying alcohol could be in the gasoline up to 10%.
2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,
'11 GMC Sierra 1500; '98 Alfa 156 2.0TS; '08 Maser QP; '67 Coronet R/T; '13 Fiat 500c; '20 S90 T6; '22 MB Sprinter 2500 4x4 diesel; '97 Suzuki R Wagon; '96 Opel Astra; '11 Mini Cooper S
When I suggested a 1% gain in fuel mileage as realistic, I forgot to mention that the reason a 1% gain is useless, or even a 10% gain in some cases, is because the agent causing the increase costs more than the fuel being saved----ergo, not likely to please the customer.
As for "running better" or better fuel mileage, the placebo effect works just as well for cars sometimes as it does for human bodies, amazingly enough. Case in point---the gas mileage on my Porsche has actually increased 2 mpg....I have no idea whatsoever why this has happened. I did NOTHING mechanical. Probably driving habits/conditions. I have been doing more short-shifting.
And I agree, one of the most troubling aspects of Enviromax's claim was to suggest that a cooler combustion temperature gives a cleaner emission. This goes against every known scientific principle of internal combustion that I'm aware of.
Is Enviromax like "a pill that claims to make you fly?" I think the comparison, though a bit much, is fair at least in the final result. You are as likely to fly as you car to increase your fuel mileage 35% with an additive, unless maybe it's plutonium.
Other red flags for me were psuedo-scientific terms like "nano-tech" and "micro-emulsion". Such terms would apply just as accurately for flavored bottled water.
Shipo brought some data to the table that I think was very helpful for this and for future discussions. So it's hopefully worthwhile to continue the discussion of this or similar products.
The "UP TO" disclaimer is doubley sneaky because if you have a gas guzzling truck for instance, like a Dodge Ram, to increase your mileage 35% you need only go from 12 mpg to 16.2 mpg, whereas if you owned a Prius you'd need to go from 55 to 74 mpg.
Naturally, it's the gas guzzler folks who might tend to buy additives that make claims like this, and it is also the gas guzzling car that is more likely to show a 1-2 mpg variation due to wind, driver habits, atmospheric conditions, tire pressure, AC use, etc.
I'm sure I could take a 12 mpg truck and spending no money whatsoever, record a mileage of 16 mpg under certain conditions.
Getting a Prius up to 74 mpg, well I'd like to see an additive do that.
I bought some of this stuff already from my neighbor who swears by it, but haven't received it yet. I was hoping someone had really come up with something that would help with gas mileage and lessen environmental impacts of vehicle emission, but may have wasted my money based on what I have read in this thread. I didn't know it was sold through MLM until I returned home and started searching on the product name.
Well, I've paid for it so figure I may as well try it and see if it is any good. Wishful thinking I think! At least I can get most of my money back if it doesn't work.
Thanks for all the info you folks put in this thread.