Fuel and Oil Additives

sequoiasoon

I had recommended BG44K after personal experience of positive results backed by before and after borescope video of my motor. Things that Techron never did. Also had excellent results from BG Synchro Shift gear lube after being recommended to me by a BMW mechanic since it "solved" many problems on some of their cars.

That said, BG makes an oil additive called MOA. The usual info, cleans better, protects better, mileage better, reduced wear etc., etc., etc. I used some but noticed no difference. I also send in oil samples to Blackstone Labs once a year just to keep tabs on my motors. My sample results came back with them thinking I had an antifreeze leak . but that it could be from an additive that I had listed (MOA). Next oil change I left it out and sent in along a with a brand new sample of MOA to test. here was their comment on the MOA "If you decide to use this additive in your oil, please mention it on the oil slip since it contains sodium. We use sodium (and a couple other elements, often) to detect anti-freeze in the oil. The other additives, calcium on down through zinc, are heavy enough they could be from a diesel engine oil. No moisture or insolubles present. This is an SAE 30W product. Note the flash point. It is lower than we typically find for unused engine oils, so it may lower the flash point enough that we will think there is fuel in your oil sample." As compared to the "universal averages for oil", Sodium was 13 times higher, Calcium 15 times, Magnesium 3 times, Phosphorus 2 times, and Zinc 3 times. Without the MOA, my oil was back to being to normal as before and all my high numbers matched perfectly if you calculated the MOA added.

When I spoke to Blackstone they said besides dropping the flashpoint as a negative, based on their experience, the combination would probably work very well for added cleaning and keeping contaminants dispersed.

Side note: With the exception of sodium, Mobil 1 had higher percentages of all those items than Castrol GTX and Chevron Supreme even with the MOA added. Mobil 1 also had a very high percentage of molybdenum which is in many of the better lubrication products due to being very slick. Castrol and Chevron had very little. End result I'll use the 44K a couple times a year and run only Mobil 1 now. Just some general info for others.

Mr_Shiftright

very interesting, thank you. I use BGK44 mysef and am quite pleased with the results.

kurtamaxxguy

The FTC has listed any number of "snake oil" additives at their site.

I am not trying to hussle with this but have heard of an additive called CAMGUARD (also goes under the name of ASL ADVANCED OIL ADDITIVE. This was developed by a lead chemist at Exxon and is used to help preserve airplane engines.

More info can be found at magnalabs.com (I apologise to Edmunds Moderators if posting this "semilink" is improper).

Has anyone else here had experience with this product for automotive use?

shipo

The thing with airplane engines is that they sit, sometimes for weeks or months, outside in the elements, without being started. The "CamGuard" stuff was developed specifically for certain model Lycoming engines that have their cam shaft (and lifters) sitting high and dry on the top of the engine. As such they are specifically prone to rust and spalling at the cam and lifter interface. Many is the time when an otherwise perfectly servicable Lycoming engine self destructs and requires to have the case split because the cam and or a lifter (or several lifters) came apart. As such, I don't think that CamGuard would do much if anything positive for your typical automobile engine.

Best Regards,
Shipo

djm2

Since I know nothing about vehicle maintenance, and recently I purchased a second car, a 2003 Accord, I decided to start to educate myself on this subject. I have been reading past postings on many of Edmund's boards in order to get a background on this subject, and in the process, I ran across this subject. There was a VERY heated discussion about MM oil on this board. Please educate me. What is MM oil, and why was this topic so controversial? What does this product do in an engine? Why are there such strong feelings about the use of this product? Should I be using a product like this in the fuel of my vehicles? Does it do any good? Does it do any harm to the engine? Best regards. Dwayne

shipo

In an effort to not start the Snake Oil Wars yet again, my suggestion is to use the "Search" feature included on this page and search for MMO. Read all that was posted on the topic and make up your own mind. There are plenty of posts from both sides of the front lines as well as a number of links to other sites that may or may not shed further light on the subject.

Best Regards,
Shipo

Mr_Shiftright

It's really not as complicated as people make it out to be.

MMO is a very old product of the type called "upper cylinder lubricants". These were developed to assist engines in lubricating the valve stems and guides by means of inserting lubricating oil in the gasoline.

At one time, this was probably a good idea, as engine technology and gasoline formulation was such that burned valves and bad or sticking valve guides was fairly common, as was severe carbonization.

It is my personal opinion that today's gasoline and engine technology render upper cylinder lubricants and/or additional oil additives, to be redundant and unnecessary, but old habits (even good habits) die hard.

So both parties are "correct" as long as you don't include time in the equation IMO. Upper cylinder lubricants did have a basis in automotive science and if you run a very old car they still do. But in a 2005 automobile, I think you're wasting your money using them.

tanya2

Very well said, Mr. Shiftright. You will find this product to be very popular in the marine side of the gasoline engines. Many boat owners, run this product in the fuel of their inboard and I/O engines, because of the high operating RPMs of the engine, at cruising speeds. My dad runs this product in the fuel of his twin engine 28' Carolina Classic with Jack Shafts and Volvo I/O drives. So, while it might not be a product used in the land based world of engines, it is still a big crowd pleaser in the boating circles. I am sure, that you will have some old mechanics, who will use this product as a part of a general preventive maintenance program. What is important, is that it will probably do no harm to the engine, and it may or may not do any good either. So, the most negative thing that you could say about the product, is that by using it, you will increase your operating costs per mile. Would I use it occasionally? Yes, as part of fuel maintenance service. Using it in this fashion, would be like using BG products, only less expensive. It is no big deal, if you want to give it a try! Tanya

Mr_Shiftright

Well I don't why they use it but maybe a marine buff can explain it to me. Maybe on very old boat engines, flatheads and such or 60s-70s V8s. MMO is just a light oil is all it is. Perhaps if the boat engines run at a colder temperature (raw-water cooled, old style engine cooling) maybe a little upper cylinder oil would help on cold starts, I dunno.

But you're right, no harm done as long as you don't go crazy with it and foul up the plugs.

0patience

The Timken test was cited as an indicator of a test for a lubricant. Graphite suspended in oil will pass that test.
But would I run graphite in oil in an engine? Of course not.

To those folks who come in and try and push their products,
Easy on the attacks of people, unless you know for certain who they are.
You can question credentials of folks, but realize that when you do so to folks who have earned the respect of folks at certain sites, including this one, you have to realize who it makes look bad.

I was already to make this long reply on why and what not, but I see that the subject has been dropped.

0patience

Will they do any harm? NO. Will they do any good? Maybe!
Actually, there are some that will do harm, if relied upon.
So a person should use additives with the thought in mind that they should do research before using anything in their engines that is not approved by the manufacturer.
Even the "re-usable air cleaners" have created problems with the newer vehicles. So much that the manufacturers have even released service bulletins regarding the problems they will cause.

isellhondas

Arco Graphite?

In the late seventies, Arco came out with a miracle oil that was supposted to surpass anything out there. It had suspended graphite in it and it was jet black in color. I don't think it stayed on the market very long.

tanya2

There were stories about that oil. Some mechanics have said that the graphite somehow separated from the oil, over time, and formed little balls that clogged the oil lines in the engine blocks. I don't know if the cause was mixing this graphite oil with regular oil, or allowing the Arco product to run in the crankcase for an extended period of time. It would be interesting to do a search on this product. The idea was good, because graphite is an excellent lubricant. Remember, as we move forward in automotive technology, there is always room for improvement. I try to look at every new product on the market with a open mind. Tanya

tanya2

Mr Shiftright, I did a search on all the information posted on this subject on this site. There were times that the exchange got a little HOT! If you read the posting 232, I think that you will get an idea, why boat owners use this product. Valve Guides and Valve Stems cause a lot of problems with marine engines, most probably because the quality of the fuel is not all that great. There is a fuel that is marketed in New Jersey and New York marinas that goes under the name of ValveTec. It is used in 2 cycle, 4 cycle and diesel engines. The fuel contains an upper cylinder lubricant. This sounds very much like MMO to me! Marine engines are a totally different breed of animal. 1st, you need to warm them up before you leave the dock, unlike a land based vehicle, 2nd, they operate at a higher RPM at cruising speed, unlike a land based vehicle, 3rd, they are constantly under load, unlike a land based vehicle, (and) 4th, there is no such thing as a marine engine any longer. The last true marine engine was probably a Gray Marine Engine. The engines in inboard and I/O boats are converted land based engines, usually truck blocks. In many cases, the land based engine cam is still in the block. This land based cam provides valve overlap for engine breathing, but also allows water intrusion into the cylinders from the wet exhaust, under certain conditions. Tanya

isellhondas

When STP was the rage.

I remember NOTHING was worse than trying to work on an STP laden engine.

Do they even make this junk anymore?

Mr_Shiftright

I used to use STP mixed with oil to dip new bearings into when I rebuilt an engine. Still think that is an okay idea. But I'd never put it in an engine.

tanya --well my main objection to MMO is that they try to make it a mystery. It's an upper cylinder lubricant. Well fine, then we know what it's trying to do and the consumer can then judge for themselves whether their type of engine might benefit from a little extra oil up in the combustion chamber. The theory of upper cylinder lubricant is hardly a mystery and hardly a cure-all for neglect or bad maintenance or real old age or prior engine wear. But sure, if you need upper cylinder lubricant, then use it, and if you don't, don't waste your money expecting miracles from a simple spoonful of light oil that is mixed with your gasoline.

tanya2

I think you hit the nail on the head with the last posting! The people in the marine field, are not using MMO as a cure for a problem engine, but rather, they are using the product as a preventive maintenance measure, not a mechanic in a can! It is not being used as a miracle worker for an engine that has not been mainatined in it's past life. Probably, if you follow the maintenance schedule of most inboard and I/O marine engines, you will find that the oil and filter are probably changed more often, than land based engines. The rule of thumb with regards to oil and filter changes on these engines, is that every 100 hours equals 10,000 miles. On a new marine engine, the oil and filter are changed at 20 hours. Thereafter, most boat owners change their oil and filter at 50 hours or sooner, which equals 5,000 miles intervals. You will also find that MerCruiser has oil in some strange weights such a 25W40. I have never seen this weight in any other oil manufacturer, so this tells me something about the demands of the oil in the MerCruiser engine. Some boat owners use automotive oil in marine engines???????? Some mechanics say that you can use diesel engine oil in marine engines as a lubricant, but I like to stay with the oil as recommended by the engine manufacturer. Tanya

alternator

At the end of each winter season I am usually faced with the need to dispose of about one gallon of two-cycle gas/oil mixture (3.2 oz oil per 1 gallon of gas). This is surplus from my snow blower, my lawn mower has a four-cycle engine.

I wonder if I can simply add this to a nearly full tank of gas in my passenger car (2005 Cavalier, 4cyl Ecotec engine). I assume that this tiny amount of oil will just burn away, without harm to my engine. Would anyone disagree?

badgerfan

I've been doing that for years and it hasn't hurt our Caravan or Taurus!

imidazol97

I was told to do that with old gas with and without oil by a technician at the blower factory when I called about a question on a Sears brand blower. The little bit of oil will act like upper cylinder lube.
I do that with left over gasoline that stayed in the 5 gallon can from last summer.

Mr_Shiftright

Your e-mail address that you registered with doesn't seem to work. Please contact me or karen@edmunds.com and register a valid e-mail address.

thanks

Shifty the Host

tanya2

I sent you an E-mail with my E- address. Edmunds sent me E-Mail at that address, so I know it is operational! Tanya

highroller

Hi all, i've been hearing alot of debates on what type of gas is best to use when using BG44k(87,91,or93 premium octane). Some people said that using regular unleaded fuel with a can of BG44k is better because regular octane burns better than premium. Others say premium because it cleans out better,etc. Can anyone comment about what they use and why?

shipo

The answer is very simple, use the grade of fuel that the manufacturer of your car says to use. No better, no worse.

Best Regards,
Shipo

highroller

Thanks for the help

robell

I used Arco with Graphite when it used to be available, I remember one morning my wife called me around noon, and said i can't go to lunch, because when i came to work this morning I left the keys in the car, and the worst part was that the engine was running. let's keep in mind that this was a 6 cylinder Buick that had a mechanical Fan & Fan Clutch.

My surprise was that when I got there, the engine was purring like a Kitten, and you couldn't tell it was idling.

I was sorry that it disappeared from the market. I now use MOBIL 1 and replace my oil religiously every 5 thousand miles. I'm looking for that extra 1 mile per gallon, plus the protection against temperature offered by the synthetic oils.

russone

Have several issues:
Fueled up with 320 gallons 97 octane leadfree marine at California fuel dock for tuna season. Tuna did not show, so fuel sat with tanks full over the winter, about nine months. Now, we are missing about 700 RPM on both engines. Does fuel lose engergy as it sits? Should we just burn it off? Are there any additives which would help? This year, we plan to end season with tanks empty.

Second, since we can only get 87, and our 1979 454 blocks called for "high octance marine fuel" the mechanic several years ago tuned these engine from 12 degrees static advance back to 8 degrees. They have run fine for three years with that setting. This costs us some mileage and torque. Are there any additives which would allow us to once again advance the timing by boosting the octance? Would these be economically practical where we are treating 300 gallons at a time?

Any other additives which should be run in marine fuel?
Thanks!

shipo

Assumption: Your 1979 engines were built with a leaded (TEL) marine fuel requirement.

I'm thinking that finding an additive (other than TEL) that will allow you to move your timing back up to 12 BTDC is going to be very difficult. Over in Europe (and other parts of the world) they still have lots of cars on the road that were built to be operated on leaded fuel, and as such, there is still a huge effort being made to find a replacement. So far at least, no such luck.

Closer to home, here in the U.S. the General Aviation community is being faced with the elimination of lead from its fuel, and as we speak, the only promising developments (IMHO) on how to keep all of those planes in the air (as opposed to falling out of the sky), is centered around electronic controls. Like your marine engines, GA engines are static timed as well, unfortunately, for the moment at least, your basic A&P mechanic can't legally retard the timing so as to deal with the unleaded fuels like you've done with your boat engines. What the most promising of the new systems (developed and waiting for certification) do is to use some form of an optical pickup inside each cylinder to detect the onset of detonation, and to keep the mixture control and/or the ignition timing such that the combustion process stays just a hair's breadth this side of detonation.

What is interesting about all of this new technology that is waiting in the wings is that it seems to have proven once and for all that TEL isn't necessary to allow older soft valve seat engines to continue to operate at peak efficiency. It has been argued by many that TEL was a necessary fuel additive to "Lubricate" valves and to prevent valve seat recession. What has come to light instead is that TEL apparently helps to control the organization of the flame front, effectively delaying the Peak Pressure Point until far enough after TDC to prevent combustion chamber pressures from climbing so high that the valve faces "micro weld" themselves to the valve seats. Said welds would then be broken the next time the valve opened, only to re-weld during the next combustion stroke. The organization and timing of the flame front is influenced by a great many factors, not the least of which is the additive package in the fuel, the compression ratio, the spark advance, the air/fuel mixture, the latent heat in the combustion chamber, the temperature of the intake charge, the amount of exhaust back pressure, and in the case of blown engines (super or turbo charged), the amount of boost. These newer systems are so advanced that they can analyze the combustion characteristics of literally every combustion event in every cylinder, and then dynamically react fast enough that if the temperatures and pressures are either too hot or too cool, the very next combustion stroke can be adjusted.

So, what does all of this have to do with your marine engines? Well, a couple of things. First, while I'm quite sure that your existing timing of eight degrees is quite safe for even the highest of power settings, my bet it is a tad conservative and that ten degrees might be closer to the mark. Unfortunately, unless you have any advanced engine monitoring equipment (like an Exhaust Gas Temperature (EGT) probe/monitor for each and every cylinder), there is no way of knowing for sure, meaning that were I in your shoes, I'd stay with the eight degrees. Second, my bet is that the technology that is currently being developed for the GA community might well "trickle down" (literally and figuratively) to the Marine community. Although that would of course depend upon just how many engines are still being operated that were designed with TEL in mind, and what the economics of the development/payback equation would be.

As an after thought, while I don't know how much performance (in both speed and range) you've lost with your retarded timing, you might want to consider pulling the heads off of your engines and have ultra hard "Stellite" valve seats installed. Doing that should allow you to advance your timing at least part of the way back to the original setting, as the valve seats should then easily be able to weather the additional pounding they are going to take from the extra heat and pressure generated by the more aggressive timing.

Disclaimer: I've extensive knowledge of automotive engines and pretty good knowledge of aviation engines; however, my marine engine knowledge is rather more limited. That said, both aviation and marine engines spend much of their time operating at very high specific power levels, as such, there are quite a few corollaries between the two.

Hmmm, last thought. Have you considered the economics of selling your 454s to the recreational marine community and installing diesel engines in their place? I have no idea of how many years the pay back would be, or what such a move would do for the value of your boat, but it might well be something to consider.

Best Regards,
Shipo

Mr_Shiftright

Fuel can distabilize in 9 months, sure. Next time add a fuel stabilizer to keep it from changing chemically. You might throw in some dry gas (water-eater basically) and see if that helps. As for an additive, if you have fresh high octane fuel I think it has everything it needs. You should also check your fuel filters for water right now.

As for octane booster, the reports (tests) I've read are not encouraging about these products.

chai

I'm driving a 1986 Mercedes Benz E200 with a carburettor engine.
1) How do I improve my fuel efficiency?
2) About 1.5 months ago, I poured in a bottle of STP fuel system cleanser to a full tank of petrol as instructed. But, almost immediately after, my car did not start well in the mornings or after about 5 hours of rest. It would literally crawl along at 20kph until 5 minutes later, when the engine manages to catch on. Before this 5 minutes are up, I can fire my accelerator and the RPM will shoot up, but the engine or the valves do not seem to catch on. I did a conversion calculation later on, and found out that I had probably added too much additive to my tank, i.e. 1 bottle to 21 gallons of fuel. 21 gallons = 79.4 litres. My car's fuel tank is probably 55 - 60 litres.
Other than this, the pick up is filled with hesitation and stumbling, and certainly not as smooth and powerful as before. Lately, I've tried starting the car on the Standard mode to get it moving more quickly, than switching it back to economy mode. It seems to help a little. Will this spoil anything?
3) Will this cause my engine, carburettor, and what not to spoil or malfunction? Will it be 'washed' away by usage and fuel top-ups?
4) Can I trust anymore STP additives?
Thanks,
Elijah,

Mr_Shiftright

Not sure what might have happened. Maybe you dislodged some dirt into the carburetor? I'm wondering if your catalytic converter might be mis-behaving. If your car has lots of miles and the catalytic converter has never been changed, this might explain your problems.

It's hard to say with a hands-on diagnostic, but I suspect the STP really isn't the problem here. The stuff you buy over the counter isn't very strong anyway. Might just be a co-incidence. Why not start with simple stuff like checking your spark plugs for fouling and changing out your fuel and air filter.

vcheng

Another salesman of snake oil has come a-callin'.

shipo

Yo dude! You are violating the Membership Agreement by hawking your wares here in the Town Hall. Good, bad or otherwise, them's is da rules.

"...and as far as it's claims and guarantees, it does everything the over the counter products do..."

Yup, that's about the only part of that post that I believe. Since OTC products do little if anything good (and are most probably more harm than help), this EnviroBilge stuff should find itself in good company.

As for looking for customers for your stuff, you might want to use the message boards over at http://www.IBelieveAllMarketingClaims.com. Make the correct pitch over there and you should make a killing. :P

Best Regards,
Shipo

gagrice

PT Barnum would love being alive today with all the ways to scam people out of their hard earned money. Anything that will increase mileage 35% would be bought up and marketed in a legitimate manner. Not by some sleazy pyramid scheme.

isellhondas

As soon as our host spots your post, it'll be gone.

Do you REALLY expect anyone to believe these outrageous claims?

I hope YOU don't really believe this or invest any money into what is just another scheme. Magic formulas like these have come and gone for years!

Mr_Shiftright

Post 393 deleted for solicitation.

imidazol97

I checked for gas catalysts on the web. There seem to be many products calling themselves catalysts rather than additives. Must be the new trend.

Mr_Shiftright

What does EPA certified actually mean? I think it means that it doesn't add to pollution, not that it works.

gagrice

EPA certified means it is Real snake oil and not synthetic snake oil....

shipo

Hmmm, "Real" snake oil vs. "Synthetic" snake oil... Ohhhh, I like it. ;-)

Hmmm (Take II), is "Synthetic" snake oil the same thing as "Genuine Imitation" snake oil?

Best Regards,
Shipo

kratus1

I apologize for upsetting the whole board...but with all do respect gagrice, you need to get your facts straight. MLM and Network Marketing IS legitimate. They evolve around a product that is marketed for expsoure and sale...Pyramid scheme's involve no product at all...remember the "stuffing the envelopes"? They just ask for the money and hope to get enough people in their downline. NO product...if you are still calous about the subject, then check into Harvard's marketing program....MLM and Networking is what they're teaching...again with all do respect.

kratus1

sorry bout that, and he did erase it. As far as believing, yes, I use the product myself, and my wife, her father, her mother and brother and his girlfriend, etc....

kratus1

EPA certified doesn't always mean 'not adding to pollution.' EPA certified "additives" have been shown to increase outbound sulfur in exhaust. It typically depends on what is being certified as ok to sell or market to the public.

gagrice

I consider all multi level marketing as a "pyramid scheme" (amway as an example) The only people getting rich are at the top of the pyramid. Some become cult like with little emphasis on the product and a lot on winning a trip to Las Vegas for a good time. I will also repeat any legitimate product will end up on a store shelf near you. You are debating with a man that watched his mother and father go from one get rich pyramid scheme to another for years. From vitamins to minerals to long distance telephone service. I ended up paying to bury them both. Show me a MLM program that the guy on the bottom ends up with anything more than his friends and relatives paying a premium for products they don't even need.

Mr_Shiftright

The problem with the product is that the claims defy credibility IMO. It's as simple as that. Basically what I am hearing is that this product holds the solution to the world's entire energy crisis and is capable of instantly increasing fleet profits enormously while at the same time allowing for a massive decrease in auto emissions, all for the price of a dinner and a movie.

Now really, who would believe such a thing?

kratus1

I can see what you're saying and I'm sorry about your parents...and far be it for me to turn this messageboard into a crossfire debate which is not what i wanted to do, I was just excited about a product my family and I, including thousands of other people with real testimonies, are using and seeing real results...unlike products I've tried on the shelf...this stuff works.....but as far as who makes more or not, are you employed under a higher rank? Does he make more than you? It's all a multi-level concept....yes pyramid concept...but actual pyramids are illegal...they just look for money or "membership fees"....not a legitimate product. Do some more research......but like I said I don't want to take this farther than it needs to in the wrong way.

kratus1

2 major oil industries who wanted to buy the patent 9 years ago...but just to throw it away because they knew it would make their vehicles last longer. Those companies obviously didn't care about aiding energy crisis and decreasing emissions....they knew it would lose them money......I'm glad they didn't get their hands on it.

Mr_Shiftright

Oh, that's an old conspiracy theory that makes no sense if we put it on the table.

Let's examine this story:

Why wouldn't one oil company LOVE to have a product to CRUSH their competition? As would any car company LOVE to have a product that could raise their CAFE fleet averages, and product durability, thereby destroying every other car company with a huge marketing edge in fuel economy and longevity.

Stories like this just further erode credibility of the product, IMO. It's rather the last refuge for trying to explain the unexplainable. Basically what I'm hearing is that the inventor who holds the patent refused to sell to oil companies or car companies for enormous riches because he thought they weren't noble in their motives and he'd rather run a MLM business so as to benefit the world?

Besides, worse than that, ---patents aren't "sold". Patents are basically worthless unless someone wants to do what you are doing. A patent is a legal protection is all. A product could be very lousy, and not even work very well, and get a patent. So, it is their (oil company, car company, etc.) DESIRE to USE your product that makes the patent worth something, and so you license it (patent rights). An oil company can't buy a patent and throw it away, they can only license it and not use it but somebody else could still use it---so the whole thing makes no sense whatsoever. Or perhaps they could buy exclusive rights and not use it, which makes even less sense.

"Making vehicles last longer" is in fact what every vehicle manufacturer is currently striving to do, if it can be done profitably. What is LEXUS if not that very thing?

gagrice

Whether it is to make you live longer or your car to live longer the story is the same. I have witnessed first hand how convincing these people can be. Don't feel bad for my parents they lived a long but not so profitable life. A small part was getting sucked into these kind of products. Be vigilant or you too will be duped. Come back in 5 years when you have become wealthy on this stuff.

isellhondas

You are receiving sound advise from a few of us who have been around the block.

Don't waste another second of your life with this stuff. It DOES NOT work and you will only make yourself look foolish trying to sign up others.

I've seen a lot of these "new concepts" come and go.

You seem like a sincere person but you've been totally brainwashed.