Fuel and Oil Additives

Mr_Shiftright

I am totally unimpressed.

shipo

Snake Oil??? I don't even give it that much credit, how about Snake Slime?

Best Regards,
Shipo

swschrad

cures baldness, athlete's foot, oil consumption, and peeling paint. OrblSlop(tm) is the first in a new line of chemicals to rotate your credit cards and replace your contacts at the same time. Cleans dirty engines and gunks clean transmissions. get OrblSlop(tm) today, just 39.95, from Vinny at Pier 39. money returned if not satisfied (but then, we always ARE satisfied by money)

highroller

YES!!! awesome dude! i think i need this to help cure my nasty foot and my bald head ahhahah :P

swschrad

Mr_Shiftright

Gentlemen, back to topic please? :P

ronmst2

I ran on to some info on a product called Raphite that is added to gas or Diesel to boost fuel efficiency and knock down nox and sox by 1/2---it is marketed bya company in Nebraska--West Point I think called Brookside Biosystems---The rep told me truckers are using the out of it and seeing good results---My question is does anybody know anything about this?????---It sound too good to be true---but you never know---Thanks

jarush

In a perfect world, you should put the BG44K in before a long trip, so you go through the whole tank of treated gas. It will still work if you do short trips, but a long trip would be ideal. It is great stuff!

jarush

I am from West Point, NE and never heard of Brookside Biosystems, and West Point is a small town. Use a can of BG 44K additive instead. It will do what the Raphite is supposed to do - it is great stuff. You can find someone who sells it at http://www.bgfindashop.com

jarush

I would disagree that BG products are of dubious value to the buyer. BG 44K is great stuff. I can almost guarantee it will improve you gas mileage per gallon by at leat a couple miles. I don't know how it works, but it works.

Mr_Shiftright

Now I didn't SAY that about all BG products....I've used BG 44K and always recommend it. It was the "oil additive" that I thought might be of dubious value not because the product was bad or phony but because I think modern oils have everything they need in them.

ronmst2

I called information in West Point Nebr and then Called Brookside Biosystems they do have a product called Raphite available---for increased fuel efficiency---I got the prices and am going to try it---

philberto

I have been reading here and around the net for info on the "best gas" and the "best oil". Specifically, I'm looking for test data and NOT personal opinion. Does anyone have some links to actual lab tests?

I have checked out "toptiergas" and "amsoil". Amsoil looks like great stuff, but what about gas? Is Chevron the way to go? Any test data on actual MPG studies and deposit teardown investigations? Why do I get my best mileage from Hess? Maybe I need to add "Techron" to Hess gas??? I need more info!

I have a new care and want to give it the best I can. I just need some real data.

Thanks!

Phil ~

rstarck

I stumbled across this supposed miracle product Enviro-Max Plus and am really interested if there is ANY net savings from gas purchases by using this product. I've spent about 1.5 hours reading through all the posts where you have one guy selling this stuff saying it works and then you have all these other "mechanically and chemically car inclined and experienced" guys telling all the reasons it won't work. There did appear to be an unbiased person who was going to try it out. Has he reported anything anywhere with his results? It would seem there would be more people willing to try the product first hand to see the actual results instead of writing back and forth over and over speculating. I'll be truly convinced about the nature of this product when one of the experienced non-believing-in-this-product guys use the product and report what happened. I can't trust hype and salespeople, even if they are being honest and completely accurate. But i can trust someone who makes no money from promoting this stuff if he reports the results. Heck, i'll try this test. This Friday, i'll be driving 1500 miles in a 1997 Pontiac Transport and am currently getting about 20-21.7 MPG. *****Hey, to whoever you are who is selling this stuff, please send me 4 free bottles (i'll pay for the shipping to make it more fair) and i'll report back the results. If you are as confident in your product as you say you are, you would want me to try your product and then show the product works and report the good news to all your ney-sayers on this discussion board who have chemical and mechanical backgrounds who say this product won't work. It almost appears that pride has taken over with both sides trying to prove their point. Let's stop talking and start trying. I just hope this stuff doesn't screw up my engine. Thanks, Rick

Mr_Shiftright

The claims are so hyperbolic to me that I wouldn't even bother testing it personally, or even suggeting that you do. It's really not "bias", it's common sense that we are trying to apply here. If you think pigs can fly, great, but not on my dime. There are no miracles in a can.

The "red flags" for me were a) higly inflated claims of results, b) VERY strange science and c) the MLM scheme.

rstarck

Actually I agree with all three of your points. However, I'm more concerned with whether it will increase my mileage efficiency by more than 3.6% since that's what i calculated I would need to improve in order to break even. So, I'm not concerned with 35% increase as that sounds ridiculous to me as well, but i am concerned and interested with whether it could improve my mileage efficiency from as low as 4% up to 10%. I promise everyone here, i will report my results. However, where is the guy who is selling this stuff? Can he please email me so i can arrange to get his 4 free bottles within the next couple of days so i can test this stuff before i leave this Friday (9/9/05) on my 1500 mile drive from Indiana to New Jersey and back. Let's get to action. Rick

Mr_Shiftright

Actually Rick a 4% variance could be explained just from headwinds and tire pressure. So even if you bought the stuff and recorded a 4% increase in mileage over 1,500 miles, you couldn't be at all sure that it had anything to do with it.

The only way to test this stuff would be something like this I think:

1. Find two identical cars

2. Run them both with no additives on the same daily routes for 1,000 miles and record their average fuel mileage or each vehicle's "baseline".

3. Then put the additive in Vehicle A but not Vehicle B. Do NOT tell the drivers which engine has it and which doesn't. Drive each for 1,000 miles and record the average fuel mileage as compared to when they didn't have the additive.

4. Now SWITCH the additive to the other vehicle, again, telling neither driver what was done, and record average fuel mileages again.

If there was a10% jump in fuel mileage when the additive was added, and a 10% drop when it was drained out or not used, and also in spite of the variance between the two vehicles "normal" fuel mileage, each one increased/decreased 10% from their normal baselines, AND the driver's were "blind"---then I'd TEND to be a believer**

I say 'tend" because then I'd want a test with longer mileages.

So what I'm saying is that if you bought this stuff, drove 1,500 miles and told me you got 10% better mileage, that would definitely not make me a believer. That's not scientific enough.

isellhondas

Every time gas prices skyrocket, these "magic formulas" get discovered.

Amazing, isn't it?

imidazol97

IIMHO the placebo effect of putting in an additive and that you're checking your mileage makes you more aware of your driving style. You drive more gently "becasue you're checking the mileage" and voila, you have higher mileage. You mistakenly assume it's from the "product."

It's just my opinion. I may be wrong.

autoguy2

One additive that is being used is actone ( 2oz. for every 10 gals. of fuel , gas or
diesel ) I have used this & seen cars that drop emissions ( co & hc ) and up the
mileage 3 mpg . I am still testing this additive . Caution it will remove paint .

Mr_Shiftright

3 mpg on what kind of engine? If it's a Honda Civic, 3 mpg is possibly just a random variable of 5% or so. If it's a 10 mpg engine that goes to 13 mpg, I'd believe it when I see it rigorously tested, since that's a 30% jump in mileage---which is pretty much impossible.

Again, any additive that could deliver 30% mileage increase would be the salvation of all mankind,the solution to the world's energy crisis, and an immediate sell-out in every store in the nation.

Unless of course it doesn't work.

technerd

That's Acetone not Acton. It works by helping the fuel more completely vaporise prior to combustion so that more of the fuel is burnt. It only has about 70% as much energy as the same volume of gasoline, however by helping the gasoline to burn more completely it burns hotter. It reduces emmisions because more of the fuel is being burnt not blown out the tailpipe.

The more effective your engine is at vaporising the fuel, the more efficient it will be. That is why every vehicle will have different results and a different best mixture ratio. Depending on how efficient your engine design and what condition it is in. The more efficient your engine is, the less improvement acetone will give you.

Acetone is available from most hardware stores, about 2 cents worth will treat a gallon of gas. In a pinch you can buy small quantities at a drugstore. Add between 2-3 oz per 10 gallons of gas about 2oz for diesel. Establish your baseline MPG over the last 1500-2000 miles of pure gasoline. Start at 2oz per 10 gal for the next set of 1500-2000 miles. Increase it in increments of about a quarter oz for each set upto a max of about 3oz/10gal. More is not better, improvements in MPG will sharply drop off after the max. Compare the results to find the sweet spot for your particular vehicle.

Store in small, well sealed amounts in your trunk, measure it away from the vehicle to avoid dripping on your paint. Be careful around man made fabrics, you don't want to dribble it down your polyester pants. Maybe wear gloves to prevent skin contact. But don't panic if you do get a little on you, women have been using it for the last 50 years or so as nail polish remover.

I am currently in my 2.5oz/10gal test set with a 22% improvement in MPG over my baseline. I am driving a '95 Pontiac Grand Prix with an EPA rating of 19/29 MPG, I'm getting 30.55 MPG mixed city/highway about 30/70.

Also stay away from gasahol, the alcohol will cancel acetones benefits. I had to restart a test set because I got a partial tankfull up in Michigan. Badstuff, even without aetone it gives you lower MPG than regular gasoline.

Why don't more people know about this, well, if you were an oil company executive would you want to reduce your annual sales by 20%? So as the fuel expert your NOT going to say it works. If your are a car manufacturer, would you want engines to run cleaner and last longer between new car purchases?

These "unbiased experts" have said that this very diluted acetone will damage seals and o-rings. However, even after soaking in pure acetone for a year, there is no measurable damage to these parts. If it can standup to gas it can handle acetone.

Give it a try.

swschrad

until I see a documented well-designed double-blind trial fully laid out in public, and the science is repeatable (meaning other researchers do it over and over and the results are all the same, and all the data is accessable and public,) I can't get excited over one or another flavor of snake oil.

how about putting two ounces of new orleans floodwater in the tank? there are enough petrochemicals in there that it Just Might Work.....

imidazol97

>there is no measurable damage to these parts.

Are you saying your tank, pump, injectors, fuel pressure regulators have all been checked and there IS no damage?

technerd

It will never happen.

The Oil industry doesn't want to lose 20% of their sales.
The Auto industry wants to sell new cars and parts, not tell you how to make them last longer.
The Government taxes you by the gallon not the mile, they stand to lose as well.

There are always people who are willing to try new things. Yes there will be failures, but that is no reason not to keep trying. The people who succeed the most are usually the ones who have failed the most in the past until they found what worked for them. Not the people who stay back in the nice safe herd and never try anything. Not the people who never take a gamble. Not the people who wait for some authority to say it is OK for the herd to move. The grass is always greener for those in front of the herd, before everyone else has trampled all over it.

But that's OK for me. Now that I have found something, I am more than willing to have an economic advantage over my competitors in the herd. I was willing to risk practically nothing by testing this in a 10 year old car with over 187 thousand miles on it. Now I can leverage what I've been willing to learn, by that tiny risk, to save even more money with the small fleet of vehicles I run in my business. A business I have been able to build up because I was willing to try something and not just stay in my nice safe computer job. The computer job I had because I was willing to take the risk back in the seventies that there would be a demand for these skills. I could have played it safe and worked for my dad's little business and I would be getting by on about 30K a year just like my brother did. But I choose to take careful risks and try things out.

And I thank-you for staying back in the nice safe herd and encouraging others to stay there with you. You are helping those of us willing to take a chance to get ahead in life. And by the time the herd catches up to where we are now we would have moved ahead even further to even greener pastures.

So stay there in the nice safe herd, eating your nice safe fodder. But every once in a while you may happen to look up, maybe to shoo away the flies that follow the herd, and see me off in the distance standing in a fresh stand of tall lush green grass. And if you look real close you may even see me waving at you, but of course your so far away you can't tell that I'm really just thumbing my nose. :P

shipo

Gasoline formulations using Acetone have been worked on for an easy 70 years by my recollection. This is nothing new and certainly nothing capable of obtaining the mileage improvements claimed by some. In a modern efficient engine (pretty much anything made in the last ten years or so) it is of extremely dubious value, and even before that, highly questionable. Anecdotal evidence suggesting that the addition of acetone to pump grade gasoline will significantly improve gasoline mileage is just that, anecdotal, and as such is highly suspect.

Folks can believe what they want, and even fool themselves by allegedly performing self tests, but unless there are a number a truly scientific studies proving out the efficacy of this or any other fuel additive, most folks will wisely ignore such claims. Of course, the flip side of all of this are the numerous studies that have shown little if any benefit of acetone being added to fuel. Check where you will, http://www.sae.org, http://naca.larc.nasa.gov or any other site that publishes scientific studies and you will be hard pressed to find any concrete evidence indicating that acetone will improve fuel economy, in fact with a little digging; you will find information quite to the contrary.

Best Regards,
Shipo

Mr_Shiftright

This is interesting.

Go to this website and match up the compatibility of "Buna N" (nitrile), which is used in a lot of fuel systems seals and o-rings, and "acetone". You have to choose one from each table to get the compatilbilities.

http://www.coleparmer.com/techinfo/chemcomp.asp

Just checking around various sources, the general consensus from people with credentials in chemical engineering seem to suggest that putting acetone in your engine is borderline suicidal.

Also I saw this funny post on another forum:

"I added this to my gas after installing a Turbonator in my intake, my mileage has gone up SO MUCH that I am SELLING GAS BACK TO THE COMPANIES."

shipo

Hmmm, I cannot get the link to work. I'll try later when I get home.

"Selling gas back to the companies." I love it!

Best Regards,
Shipo

Mr_Shiftright

link works, just checked it. Very interesting. I presume that Buna-N is still a major component in most modern fuel system seals, don't know that for certain but that's what the experts say.

If it IS a major component, acetone is going to kill your car for sure, for sure.

technerd

What I'm saying is:

That I have a 10 year old car with 187K miles on it, way past it's life expectancy, that is worth maybe a thousand bucks.

That since I starting testing with acetone, it runs smoother, has better acceleration. The carbon buildup on the plugs have gone away. The exhaust smells cleaner. That if anything I am driving a little faster than I was before. And I'm still getting a consistantly measurable 22% improvement in milage.

I'm not going to pay thousands of bucks every 20K miles or so to have everything checked on a cheap old car. With the miles I put on a car every year, with $3 gas prices, I am saving half the value of my car every year. And in the old beater pickups I run in my construction business I save over there value in gas savings every year. Vehicles that should have died by now, but instead are all running better now than when I first bought them. And I've gained a level of confidence by success in my older vehicles that I am willing to try it out in the newer ones as well.

The Auto industry isn't going to spend millions on research so that they can sell fewer new cars. The Fuel industry isn't going to spend millions to cut their sales by 20%. The government isn't interested in reducing their gas tax income.

Besides, all these parts are metal and plastic, right... Well guess what, acetone is stored in it's undiluted form in metal cans and plastic bottles. The EPA wouldn't allow it to be sold that way, if it wouldn't be safe on the shelf for years and years! When was the last time you heard "Cleanup on aisle 10, another acetone can just fell apart"?

Yes there are altruistic people out there who have checked this stuff. There is a guy out there who has been doing this for over 40 years. He isn't trying to make a fast buck. Those of use who have tried this out and found out that it works aren't going to make money off of you.

You know what... Just forget it, don't try it. Stay there in the nice safe herd and never try anything. That way I will make money off of you, becuase I have an economic advantage. I pay 22% less for gas than you do. That's my snake oil, "Complacency", and the really neat thing is the more I give away for free the more money I make. :P

Mr_Shiftright

Please don't anyone take the bait. :P

What did you all think of the link I posted, or have any of you done any further scientific research on acetone in automotive fuel systems?

Or shall we move on to something else?

Host

shipo

Regarding your link. Hmmm, still doesn't seem to work. I wonder if it is somehow being blocked due to the cookie handling/blocking that I have enabled.

Best Regards,
Shipo

shipo

Yup, that was it, turned off the cookie challenge and bang, up came the site.

Best Regards,
Shipo

0patience

If you ask 100 mechanics, if they were to recommend one, what would it be?
You would probably find that the largest percentage would recommend Lucas products.

shipo

"If you ask 100 mechanics, if they were to recommend one, what would it be?"

Errr, "recommend one" what? Recommend one brand of Snake Oil? Geez, that's easy, I can probably recommend twenty. The real question is what would I recommend using them on? Answer: "Beats the hell out of me, certainly not any car I'll ever own." ;-)

Best Regards,
Shipo

technerd

In concentrations of less then 1 in 500 how long is that gonna take.

I would have saved far more than the cost of a few minor parts.

But never mind me, I'll just take my savings and go home, again & again & again....

Funny thing just about everything that doesn't like acetone, doesn't like gasoline either. :P

Mr_Shiftright

I thought it was interesting that every website I visited touting acetone invariably mentions the oil company conspiracies and also some sites claimed how some evil people have actually sabotaged the information online so that others would use harmful proportions of acetone, to deliberately give it a bad name.

I keep thinking of Carl Sagan's wise words: "Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence".

swschrad

if I was to tell you more about it, I'd have to ... well, you know.

those are my black helicopters, yup, sure enough ya betcha by golly, then. buy me a cookie

isellhondas

Using acetone when repairing surfboards when I was much younger.

That was NASTY stuff!

Think I'll stay in the herd chewing my cud!

swschrad

benzine and other fuel-ish isomers of benzine in gasoline are rough on the liver. you don't want any amount of antifreeze getting in your system, or it will essentially glue the kidneys shut for good. refrigerant passing into a running engine or detected by a flame detector generates phosgene gas, a favorite of the Hun in world war one. chlorinated brake cleaner is the first cousin of carbon tetrachloride, trichloroethylene, which is awful to brain and liver. brake dust is full of asbestos or calsil, you don't want any of that. acetone is darned near the breath of life compared to many auto chemicals. even used motor oil causes cancer. moral: keep clean and don't wallow in anything.

inkie

Thechnerd adding acetone to fuel even in the percentage you quote will change the vapor pressure of the entire mixture. That bothers me, it may affect components on the newer engines upon combustion. :confuse: :confuse:

minimaine

Would you try it in a 2003 MINI Cooper? (serious question)
I've got a MINI Cooper and have started to use acetone. Whereas before I couldn't get even 100 miles at the quarter-tank mark (OK, OK, I like to go *fast* when I drive far on the highway, and live in a city where all the lights are always RED), now it gets at least 125, once 152. Read that it increases the octane. Think that I could switch to mid-grade gasoline instead of the high (priced) test?

swschrad

and you'll be buying those new engines yourself as the warranty will be shot.

seriously, while you're more likely to feel less gutty performance on low-test, you could get enough pinging to burn your valves and pistons.

if BMW wanted you to put half-gas in there, they'd have told you so. someplace or another I got the idea that german engineers like to test things to see if they're right. endlessly. but I could be wrong in that....

isellhondas

I wouldn't put acetone in a lawnmower and I happen to think yopur claims are....well...nevermind!

imidazol97

Isell,
Would you ask your service manager what might happen with a low level of acetone added to the gasoline of tens of thousands of miles?

I keep thinking there would be a chemical reaction with some of the hydrocarbons in the gasoline and some of the additives to cause a change.

isellhondas

Our HOST is a well recognized expert in all things automotive!

He shared his views on this earlier and I feel the same way!

Every time gas prices spike, these "miracle stories" abound.

**trying to keep my mouth shut***

Mr_Shiftright

Well I'm not a chemist...I just researched the opinions of credentialed (and rather un-credentialed) people on the Internet and my conclusions were that I'd never put acetone in my gas tank based on what I read and who wrote it.

highroller

Since there's Chevron's techron fuel additive for purchase off the shelves, why doesn't Shell make their own fuel additive in a bottle or can? Would it cost too much for them to pursue this kind of goal? I would definitely buy one of those(even though i do not clearly know the exact additives/chemicals they use but they sure do work pretty well for my car), with perspective to the cost of the BG44k product of course :P

swschrad

too many SKUs to deal with, whatever, but they haven't joined the parade of little plastic bottles that replace the service bay that some oil companies have.

maybe it's because the shelf is already full and it's spilled into the aisles.

notice that V-Power is only billed in their premium gas line. where the extra detergent is probably needed to keep customers from screaming when the slower-burning premium fuel used in regular engines builds up carbon on the valves.

or I may just be cynical. usually the only "mechanic in a can" that works jumps when you bang hard on the door of the can and tell him/her/it to get their, uh, case back into the shop, the sports page will be the same at lunch.

arkfirefighter

after reading this i had to make a say, some say it wont make a difference, dont care if ya believe me or not, but 2 ounces per 10 gallons 2 mpg gain, 96 f150 5.8, average 19mpg, been running it for several years and havent had a single problom. (actully close to 4 years to be exact). kinda reminds me when the muffler guy said i would get horrible gas millage if i removed my cats, ....lol actully got a gain from that as well...lmao..