Fuel and Oil Additives

andyman73

I can dig it, you can dig it, now maybe they can dig it, too!!! There's a song in there some where!

They must be gellin!

isellhondas

Remember "cow magnets"?

Around 1980, people were selling these. Tape them on your fuel lines and watch your gas mileage go WAY up! I remember KGO in San Francisco even had a guest on touting these.

Mr_Shiftright

see them again, no doubt, in some new 'scientific' form---some mysterious "microchip".

It absolutely astounds me that people never get the picture that if it were SO EASY to improve gas mileage, the automakers would adapt these items INSTANTLY, rather than spend gazillions of dollars to raise their CAFE ratings one-tenth of a gallon.

Of course the usual response is that the automakers are in a conspiracy with the gasoline companies, which is equally strange to say since higher fuel economy is an awesome marketing tool to sell cars. I can't imagine that oil companies could bribe a manufacturer with enough cash to forestall the introduction of a 50 mpg muscle car or a 35 mpg 3-ton SUV.

capitaltruck

Has everyone been informed about the Top Tier gas phenomenon? Apparently Shell, Chevron, Conoco/Phillips/76 sell the good stuff (Top Tier fuels have twice the recommended amount of detergent additives). Shell V Power has supposedly 5 times the government mandated levels. Go to www.toptiergas.com

lostwrench

"Fuel Dispensary". I love it.

shipo

After reading this post, I checked out the Top Tier web site and did a little studying of my own. This seems to me to be something of a non-issue (at least with name brand fuels), however, just to be on the safe side, and since the only "TOP TIER" blessed fuel company that has even a single station within 100 miles of my home is Shell (the closest being nearly 20 miles), I decided to drop a note to ExxonMobil (whose stations are so numerous around here that it's hard to run out of gas without being able to roll up to the pump). The following is the response:

"Mr. Shipo,

Your email was forwarded to me for response.

ExxonMobil has been providing detergent additized gasolines since the 1950s and we are proud of our historical leadership in this area. In fact, back in 1985, ExxonMobil pioneered gasolines that cleaned up fuel injector deposits. All of our current gasolines are formulated to meet stringent performance standards and exceed all industry and government specifications for detergency. All Exxon and Mobil gasolines pass the performance criteria of the TOP TIER program.

Thank you for contacting ExxonMobil.

Jacqueline Levesque
Exxon Mobil Corporation"

Best Regards,
Shipo

dialm4speed

I've read that if you add 10% per gallon of Ethanol to premium gas you can raise your octane levels a few points. Basically you can go from 91 octane to 93 or 94 octane with this mix. Sounds good enough but what are the long term effects of this?? Anybody every try it?

dialm4speed

OOOPS! I got it wrong! You add Toluene not Ethanol.

0patience

You are aware that toluene is a component of gasoline?

Ninety-two (92) percent of toluene is used as a component of gasoline. One percent of toluene is used in solvents in paints, inks, adhesives, and cleaning agents, and in chemical extractions. The remainder is used in the chemical synthesis of benzene, urethane foams, and other organic chemicals; in the production of pharmaceuticals, dyes, and cosmetic nail products; and as an agent to expel or destroy roundworms and hookworms.

dialm4speed

Well it's versatile stuff ain't it! LOL! I found another website that talks about it's effects. I'm thinking of trying it once I get my hot rod rollin again. Here's the link

http://noclownz.dnsalias.net/racegas.htm

djm2

I am a new 2003 4 cyl. Honda Accord owner. I purchased this vehicle recently. It was sitting in a garage for 2 years without running. At the present time, the vehicle is being serviced at my mechanic's shop. This is my second vehicle. Once he gets it up and running, I want to learn more about vehicle maintenance, and repair. At the present time I know nothing about cars or engines. What is BG44K ? What does it do in the engine's fuel? How do I use it? Where can I purchase it? Should I use it on a regular basis? Is it safe to use? How often should it be used? My other car is a 2002 Ford Mustang / 8 cylinder / 5 speed manual. Can I use this product in that vehicle? -------- Best regards. --------------Dwayne

isellhondas

But it would be a waste of your money.

highroller

BG44K helps your car alot if your car is experiencing problems such as rough idling, knocks/pings, your engine fuel system needs cleaning, and so forth. It is very strong stuff, you should pour this stuff in with a full tank of gasoline. These stuff cost about $15, which is expensive for most people who buy regular fuel injectors or other fuel system cleaner products. I was not a firm believer in fuel system cleaning products until i tried this one, because for many months now i ve been using stp, lucas, seafoam products and they have not lived up to its hype (i guess just for my car i dont know about others) but the BG44K really hits the problem good. I was experiencing very rough idling problems for many months using the other products.

isellhondas

I would probably try the stuff. Otherwise, I think these additives are a waste of money. In all of the cars I've ever owned, I've never had a problem not using any additives.

cls1

Dr Ali Erdemir of Argonne National Labs discovered that hydrated Boron Molecules form a permanent bond to metal alloy creating a boric oxide surface filling in all the asperities at 0.05% micron. The boric acid is milled to under 1 micron. Teflon nor any additive in oil has the ability to form a molecular bond as boric acid can thus they are sacrifical boundary lubricants. Crystal Lattice Structure as photographed forms in reaction to moisture and oxygen, so all you psydo scientist out there should actually go to the evergreen america website look under test and see that we spend millions in testinfg and used at the most recognized corporations in the world. Oh yea, the crystals slide over each other, no metal contact is made, and we surpassed the Timken test 90% plus, it is all at the website under technology, at the top are the tabs.

cls1

It was developed for NASA, not by NASA, and it does not work in space since it needs oxygen and moisture for the boric acid platletts to replenish, also it does not work in the presence of rocket fuel

cls1

cls1

Hey shipo, are you blind, go to technology under evergreenamerica.com and look at the tabs on top, then go to testimonials for more test results, all major ASTM test have been performed. A reason we were reluctant to even sell to the consumer market was the snake oil environment out there, our list of customers include the largest corporations and governments worldwide. Shipo, have you read a report about boric acid (motorsilk is a trade name) in the January 2003 edition of LUBRICATION ENGINEERING (posted on the evergreenamerica website under articles) titled "Friction Behavior of Boric Acid and Annealed Boron Carbide Coatings Studied By In Situ Raman Triometry" a study conducted by the US Navy who use the products. Now Shipo that is only one amidst many so go back and download the PDF files you say are not there. Hey, do you work for Slick 50?

cls1

Up to 20%, although it can go higher

shipo

Oh geez, here we go again. If it looks like snake oil, sounds like snake oil, tastes like snake oil...

FWIW, I back when this stuff first was posted here I took a good look at the web site and saw nothing that I could confirm from any other source. In other words, I saw no compelling evidence. When the major automobile manufacturers start recommending this stuff, I'll sit up and take notice, until then...

Best Regards,
Shipo

vcheng

... will make you healthy, wealthy and wise. You will be virile and attractive for always and always, and your heart's deepest desires will all come true. REALLY! Just try it out, it was after all developed by NASA and is used by our military, therefore it must be all good! And if you sign up for our long term maintenance plan, it will make you and your vehicle immortal. All this for four easy payments of 29.95! And if you call within the next thirty minutes, we will throw in mini-MotorSilk for your pet at no charge. (Please specify cat or dog.)

(This is a repost, but obviously still so very very true!)

imidazol97

If it were funded by three (anonymous?) manufacturers, they would have it in their initial delivery cars for that EPA mileage boost for their CAFE averages so fast it's stock would be the next google. That's really the point of these postings, isn't it??? To hype the stock or sell the product for the commission that the popup on entry to the site promises?

If it worked, we'd all be hearing about it from an oil company or a major car company having bought exclusive rights to it.

shipo

Ohhh, do you have a way with people or what? Maybe I should run right out and buy a batch of MotorGilk. :P

You make a bunch of half baked claims that seem to good to be true (and not easily independently verified) and when I challenged the veracity of said claims you get upset and stoop to personal insults (which by the way are in violation of the Membership Agreement). Speaking of the Membership Agreement it also prohibits someone from hawking their own product, and dude, to me at least, you sound like a shill for that nevergreenamerica outfit you keep hyping.

Warning: To all folks who are considering this gunk, be forewarned, if you use it you run the risk of turning your ride into a :sick:

Best Regards,
Shipo

Mr_Shiftright

for personal attacks and solicitation.

MrShiftright
Host

dialm4speed

"Warning: To all folks who are considering this gunk, be forewarned, if you use it you run the risk of turning your ride into a :sick: "

Now with that said is there anybody who's actually using this stuff?? How do you like it? Does it work?

imidazol97

I don't personally believe a consumer can determine if the chemical works or not. Their evidence would be anecdotal. E.g., people are still buying the Tornado. They put it in their car and think about driving carefully to see how much better their gas mileage is. In the process they are conserving gas because their subconsciously want the device to make the car do better. Otherwise they have made a foolish purchase; they have to prove to themselves their purchase was worthwhile.

And their gas mileage improves until they go back to driving normally and in reality their gas mileage has been hurt by the device in their air stream causing resistance.

tanya2

Additives are like vitamins. You either believe in them, or you don't. Some are VERY expensive, and I am not too sure that they are worth the money. If you go to the autoparts stores like PepBoys, you will see a display shelf with an assortment of products. Some you simply pour the complete bottle into the tank, at the time of fill-up, and others you must measure, so many ounces per gallon of fuel, at the time of fill-up. Will they do any harm? NO. Will they do any good? Maybe! Tanya

cls1

People think that if something works then it only comes from the major companies, how many of you know who owns Slick 50 which has an ongoing FCC lawsuit against it and already paid out 10 million in claims. Quaker oil owns Slick 50, does it work? Absolutely not since it is 50 weight oil mixed with ground up teflon yet it pulls in 250 million a year so the issue is profit. The three manufacturers are no secret who fund the PDM center, Chrysler, Ford and Dodge, in a MATTER OF FACT the Dodge racing team uses Motor Silk for three years now as does many NASCAR teams. Profit is the goal of companies so built in obsolescence is key and a major reason why they are not built to last without service, it is a profit center and until the end user demands change or an aftermarket is large enough to buy out or negotiate a deal it is not incorporated, a good example are oil filters, they were originally an aftermarket product as were windshields. Change comes from discovering a need and addressing it. Today the need for better lubrication is vital. Oh, yea, the license to the Boric Acid technology is held by Mike Phelps, he and Penske were partners for the IROC racing team and designed the IROC Camaro. Royalties from sales are paid to the Department of Energy, University of Chicago and Argonne National Labs. So please use critical thinking when evaluating a technology and do not resort to believing that it a corporate 100 does not make it it is not good.

vcheng

With all due respect, your postings ARE FULL OF NONSENSE!

Could you please post some hard information rather than grammatical gobbledygook.

cls1

Sorry you feel that way, the post was in reponse to a specific question, if you have a question then ask it instead of reacting.

vcheng

My questions, as a person who loves anything automotive, are:

1. What objective evidence, obtained under unbiased, scientifically rigourous conditions, is there that MotorSilk enhances the lubricative properties of motor oil under conditions of routine use to the extent that a measurable benefit accrues?

2. Assuming that such a benefit can demonstrated (and please note that such an assumption is incorrect based on the evidence so far), what are the factors that are preventing such an important advance from being adopted in a more widespread fashion?

shipo

...but I'm still having a problem with this whole MotorGunk thread.

CLS1, in post 325 you wrote, "so all you psydo scientist out there should actually go to the evergreen america website look under test and see that we spend millions in testinfg and used at the most recognized corporations in the world." Since that post you've been branded as a shill and/or a principal of this nevergreenameria outfit, and as such, anything that you post is tainted, at least in my mind, as it seems that you are making such posts for personal gain.

Best Regards,
Shipo

cls1

Please go to the technology section on evergreenamerica.com and see tabs above for articles, test etc. Here you will find the Timken load, Pin on Disk, Ball on three disk, Friction Coefficient, HFRR, Scar width, Corrosion etc, most test performed at Herguth Labs and Argonne labs. You can also read articles from Lubrication Engineering Journal and Tribology Journal which are industry lubrication Journals. If you want the test from Iraq on Humvee you must e-mail motordoctor@evergreenamerica.com since we can not publish the results online. THere is also an animation at the technology section showing the process of boric acid and how it works in a fluid system.

Question 2: we just came to the consumer market, our business is the Military, Gov't. and Industry, we custom formulate lubricants for a wide range of uses, some of our customers include Haliburton, DOT, Navistar, Boeing, CN Rail from Canada (own many railroads in the US also) Henkel Chemical, Allied Signal, Mitsubishi Heavy Industries and many more world wide. Unless you are a Lubrication Engineer or Tribologist you most likley have not heard of the Boric Acid technology.

For any specific questions or further test results please e-mail motordoctor@evergreenamerica.com. I understand the skepticism out there and can appreciate honest good question as yours

vcheng

....forward my questions to your recommended address and post the answers here for all of us to see? Please note the specific wording of my questions requires specific answers, not generalizations.

Thanks.

Mr_Shiftright

I'd prefer, if the dialogue can remain civil, that we all get to share the answers, yes. But remember, no direct solicitation of a product will be allowed. Try to focus on the science, not the "buy me" part, okay?

thank you

MrShiftright
Host

vcheng

... website quoted by cls1.

I think it is cleverly disguised smoke and mirrors, aimed specifically at parting fools from their money.

If anybody is convinced by the information presented at that site, I would like to sell them a certain bridge in New York City.

Please note that others are free to come to their own conclusions different from mine.

shipo

I haven't been to that site for some months, however, it is interesting that you came away with the exact same impression that I did. Lots of content, no substance.

Best Regards,
Shipo

vcheng

... can be subtle.

Consider the following hypothetical experiment: A frog jumps six feet when startled by a noise of 100 dB. After amputating one leg, the frog jumps only 3 feet when startled by the same noise. After amputating the remaining leg, the frog does not jump at all when startled by the same noise. Conclusion: The frog is deaf after cutting the legs, therefore it must hear from its hind limbs.

shipo

cls1

Wow, I am used to dealing with lubrication engineers, I jumped on here to shed a little light for those with the capacity for critical thinking, Shipo, you did set yourself up with your unfounded accusations. And vcheng, your own words betray you. This technology is not for the neophyte so talk about something you know that can actually help others. All I have read here is attacks in the dark missing the target every time.

vcheng

I have the education and experience to prove my point, but why boast.

Why don't you respond to my two questions? Please note that the questions are worded very carefully, and indicate a certain level of critical thinking in trying to evaluate your claims regarding a new product. As part of that evaluation, I read the documents including the PDF documents quoted on the website. The "information" there does not answer my two questions. It is pseudoscience, appears to be motivated by financial considerations, rather than anything scientific.

You say that "This technology is not for the neophyte" but you expect suckers to pay hundreds of dollars based on your "word", without anything substantive to back it up.

Edmunds is a good website not suited to this petty hustling. Please go somewhere else if you are not able to substantiate your statements scientifically.

badgerfan

As with most of these aftermarket additives, the most pressing question is, why have not one of the many major auto manufacturers loaded their vehicles up front with this additive? If it is such a revolutionary product, don't you think this would have happened already? With every manufacturer struggling to meet CAFE standards and the current push from consumers in the face of rapidly rising fuel costs, why has this not occured?

I don't want to hear the old conspiracy theories either about it being withheld from implementation due to a big conspiracy between big oil, the Arabs, and the big auto manufacturers to prop up the demand for gasoline.

Additionally, one must consider that most of the moving parts of automobiles are supported on a hydrodynamic film of oil, such that for the most part, metal to metal contact is not occuring except under transient startup conditions. Thus surface treatments are not necessarily going to result in any improvements in reducing friction.

cls1

You make no sense at all vcheng and I have no time to waste here with such petty comments and ignorant evaluations, if the ASTM test are not good enough for you then you have exposed yourself once again as a cloud without substance. This forum is a sandbox dominated by two people who only seek to bad mouth technologies they know nothing about, so you two can stay and play, I have much better things to do as I hope anyone who comes here to seek any truth will realize.

shipo

How is it that my accusations are "unfounded"? To the best of my knowledge, the only accusation that I have made is that you stand to gain financially if folks buy the stuff you are hawking. I made that accusation after reviewing your posts and diving that you have some sort of an association with this product, and accusation that you so far have not refuted. Did I miss something?

In light of the fact that I was not able to independently verify the veracity of your boasts regarding the efficacy of this treatment, I stated that in my opinion, this stuff smells like one of the many formulae for "Extract of Snake". That is not an accusation, it is an opinion based upon an apparent lack of hard facts. Remember, anybody can make a fancy looking web site and make all kinds of wonderful sounding claims. The key to this is being able to refer to publicly available scientific publications such as the SAE library for verification. By the way, I've checked any number of ways over on the SAE site, and unless there is something else I'm missing, the only "hit" I got on their database was regarding the effects that boron has on Catalytic Converters.

Like VCheng posted "Edmunds is a good website not suited to this petty hustling. Please go somewhere else if you are not able to substantiate your statements scientifically."

Best Regards,
Shipo

shipo

"This forum is a sandbox dominated by two people who only seek to bad mouth technologies they know nothing about, so you two can stay and play, I have much better things to do as I hope anyone who comes here to seek any truth will realize."

Oh dear! It seems that he has packed up his toys and gone elsewhere. :P

Best Regards,
Shipo

Mr_Shiftright

Nuff said!

let's move on to something else. It would be GREAT if we didn't hear another word about Motorsilk! Obviously the topic is too volatile to continue, so to avoid deletions I think we should move on.

In GENERAL TERMS---any "new" product that can product a marked increase in fuel mileage and/or engine life for a small amount of money per car would indeed be a fabulous competitive edge that I would think any manufacturer would leap on. After all, what is the point of the massive investment Toyota and Honda have made in Prius and WhatEver That Is (Insight?) if not to sell a car with superior fuel mileage? Why the variable cylinder technology or the engine off technology?

As for engine life, consider the competitive advantage of offering a 150,000 mile warranty on interal engine components!

Consider the enormous savings in repair and maintenance and fuel for the United Parcel Service Trucking Fleet (they employ 85,000 drivers!).

And yet we don't see a whiff of it being used in lieu of plain old motor oil and plain old gasoline.

vcheng

Not just for MotorSilk, but for any new additive claiming improvements, I reiterate my two questions:


1. What objective evidence, obtained under unbiased, scientifically rigourous conditions, is there that the additive in question enhances the lubricative properties of motor oil under conditions of routine use to the extent that a measurable benefit accrues?

2. Assuming that such a benefit can demonstrated (and please note that such an assumption is incorrect based on the evidence so far), what are the factors that are preventing such an important advance from being adopted in a more widespread fashion?

Mr_Shiftright

CASE IN POINT:

We can all get answers to #1 and #2 for say Solar Power Components, right? We can get results of how many volts/amps/whatever...under what conditions...and for how long. Also we can get the costs.

And therefore, we know that solar panels on your roof cost so much and can only do so much in certain climates, etc. So we can get data and decide:

"Does this work and if so is it worth it for me to buy it?"

vcheng

isellhondas

Our crazy gas prises will do doubt cause the creation of some more of these additives that are supposted to do all of these great things.

I still remember the Frantz oil filters and the messes they used to cause!