When Should You Change Your Oil?

Edmunds.comEdmunds.com Member, Administrator, Moderator Posts: 10,315
edited January 2016 in General
imageWhen Should You Change Your Oil?

Knowing when to change your oil can save you money and unnecessary dealer visits while you help the environment.

Read the full story here


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Comments

  • angiemaritzaangiemaritza Member Posts: 1
    I more of a question than a comment. I just came out of my Hyundai dealer where I went to do the 45,000 mile maintenance total cost $435.00. I also came out with a list of recomendations that the mechanic suggested, for example flush the stearing wheel oil $99.00, clean fuel injectors $135.00,drive lines fluid service $159.00,ihrutte service $80.00 my car is a 2006 Santa Fe. Can some one tell me please if I have to go and spend another $ 500.00 performing this suggestions in this car? I think that I am being taken for a very expensive ride. I would appreciate anyone's help.
    Angela
  • law911law911 Member Posts: 1
    You talk about Oil but not oil Filter is it the same time frame as the higher oil changes or do you need to change it in betwene times also
  • salberssalbers Member Posts: 1
    Your expose of the automotive oil change scam is on point and long overdue.

    Your explanation of the variables of oil selection is helpful, but incomplete because you do not address the issue of API ratings. These ratings are specifically provided to help consumers select the correct oil for their engine which nearly all manufacturers reference.

    Further, since, as you say, oil quality has been rising over the years, I think you'll find the the cheapest oil available nearly always is sufficient to comply with the API rating required for nearly all vehicles. This means that the majority of high priced oils are not cost effective unless they make a contribution to extended oil change intervals.

    Do you agree?
  • rodneyarodneya Member Posts: 2
    I'm not sure I trust the auto manufacturers to have my best interests in mind when they recommend an oil change interval. It's not in their best interest that I drive the same vehicle a quarter of a million miles or more. They want it to be durable enough that I'll buy another one, but they would like me to buy another one every few years. I've always changed my oil at about 3000 mile intervals and my 1997 Chevy S10 pickup now has 205,000 miles on it. The valve covers and oil pan have never been off. It burns a little less than a quart of oil in 3000 miles. I doubt that the engine would have lasted this long with longer drain intervals. Yes, I've paid about $2000 for the 68 or so oil changes, but $2000 won't begin to cover the cost of an engine overhaul.
  • napleshoodnapleshood Member Posts: 1
    The Vlvoline engine guarantee requires a change every 4,000 miles
  • famosterfamoster Member Posts: 2
    I have a 2001 Passat, had the oil changed at 106,000 so I thought.
    at 109500 oil light came on when on a banked turn, took to my mech. and found there was not oil in the engine. I use synthetic oil. I believe that on my last oil change, they did not put new oil in at all. Still runs well, Synthetic oil is the only oil to use.
  • tinagriegotinagriego Member Posts: 1
    I have a 2013 Mitsubishi Outlander Sport and got conflicting answers on when to do an oil change one is 5000 miles and another 12000 due to I use synthetic oil what should I follow & is the oil filter changed during an oil change or would that be an extra cost?
  • fabrepsfabreps Member Posts: 1
    None of these people will give you the right answer. Dealers, service departments, oil companies, filter manufacturers all have a vested interest. They all want you to spend money. Oil analyses is the only answer, but who knows what that costs?
  • steverstever Guest Posts: 52,454
    Blackstone is well known - they will sent you a test kit free and currently charge $28 for an analysis (plus about $3 to ship the sample to them).
  • carboy21carboy21 Member Posts: 760
    Oil change is cheap. Engine overhaul is expensive. I change oil whenever I see dark colored oil instead of the clear yellow.
  • steverstever Guest Posts: 52,454
    Ah, the oil wars never end. I don't buy your theory @cartoy21 and I don't like wasting money (or resources) needlessly. Lots of oil gets pretty dark pretty quickly in lots of engines.
  • Mr_ShiftrightMr_Shiftright Member Posts: 64,481
    Color isn't really a very good indicator. You could be wasting good oil.
  • carboy21carboy21 Member Posts: 760

    Color isn't really a very good indicator. You could be wasting good oil.

    Oil is recycled. I just contribute to a good quality recycled oil :smile:
  • Mr_ShiftrightMr_Shiftright Member Posts: 64,481
    There you go!
  • thecardoc3thecardoc3 Member Posts: 5,697
    edited January 2016
    stever said:

    Lots of oil gets pretty dark pretty quickly in lots of engines.

    While I can't argue about the fact that oil can get dark pretty quick in a lot of engines, the reason why that occurs comes down to improper maintenance. When oil gets dark quickly after a change that reveals previous services used products that failed to meet the engines requirements as well as could have been performed at too long of an interval.

    You can't tell if oil needs changed by looking at its color, and that means oil that isn't dark can still be at the end of its useful life.

    Here was my Escape's dipstick with 7% oil life left when I did it's last oil change at 134K miles. That oil had 8,000 miles on it and was ready to be changed.




  • steverstever Guest Posts: 52,454
    edited January 2016
    My understanding is that some oil additives can cause the oil to darken quickly. And the way oil works is to put "dirt" in suspension and that can make it look dark.

    "Check the oil on the dipstick. If it's black, change the oil. Experts say this is a myth, as is the related notion that you can identify spent oil by smell. "That is old school," says Kristen Huff, vice president of Blackstone Laboratories in Fort Wayne, Indiana. "Oil is meant to get dark — it means it's doing its job," she says." (link)

    Better go spring for an oil analysis, you may have another 2,000 miles in that oil.

    Either that or just change the oil at the suggested interval and just drive it for 200,000 miles until you finally get bored with the car and dump it on the next poor slob. :p
  • steverstever Guest Posts: 52,454
    edited January 2016
    Here's a great post about the never ending oil discussion. ;)
  • carboy21carboy21 Member Posts: 760
    Oil change is not just a set figure like 3000 or 7000 miles. Different cars are driven in different ways. If you drive lots of highway miles then 7000 miles oil change is harmless. If you are driving stop and start city miles with multiple short journeys every day then even 3000 miles oil change is not good. Oil getting dark and very dark means it is losing its additives and filter is losing its filtering capacity. My car is driven 90 percent city driving so I change oil whenever oils is dirty dark irrespective of how many miles I have driven
  • carboy21carboy21 Member Posts: 760
    Better go spring for an oil analysis, you may have another 2,000 miles in that oil.

    It cost the same as an oil change . Just change the oil

    LOL
  • thecardoc3thecardoc3 Member Posts: 5,697
    stever said:

    Here's a great post about the never ending oil discussion. ;)

    What is so great abut it unless you intend to continue to lead customers towards shorter vehicle lifespans.
    Here is a response to the thread that you linked and it still applies today.

    Please coordinate your advice to the readers with this article from the New York Times about engine sludge formation.

    http://www.nytimes.com/2007/02/04/automobiles/04SLUDGE.html?adxnnl=1&pagewanted=1&adxnnlx=1319396711-O3ZvK+KdCk0RUFL9zAOnvQ

    Back when this article made news none of us really knew what was happening and we saw the manufacturers take it on the chin. Today through continuing education we now know what was really to blame, and it was the oils we were using. It wasn't extended drains, although in some cases that easily may have played a role. It wasn't the engine design changes which were made to reduce emissions, although they did contribute to the issue. Again the fault was with the API and ILSAC oil specifications at that time. In order to educate the readers as you have tried to do here, you must report all of the facts, and not just cherry pick them to your convenience.



    The data is out there about the engine oils and specific approvals that exceed the API and ILSAC standards and they solve the problems that are so often reported right in these very forums. The engine oil consumption complaints are caused by consumers who are having their cars serviced with products that don't meet the vehicle specifications and comments that attempt to cloud those facts fail to meet the intended goals of properly educating the consumer.

  • thecardoc3thecardoc3 Member Posts: 5,697
    edited January 2016
    stever said:

    My understanding is that some oil additives can cause the oil to darken quickly. And the way oil works is to put "dirt" in suspension and that can make it look dark.

    The way oil is supposed to work is that it should be preventing deposits from developing in the first place. Then it wouldn't have any "dirt" to pick up, ever.
    stever said:


    "Check the oil on the dipstick. If it's black, change the oil. Experts say this is a myth, as is the related notion that you can identify spent oil by smell. "That is old school," says Kristen Huff, vice president of Blackstone Laboratories in Fort Wayne, Indiana. "Oil is meant to get dark — it means it's doing its job," she says." (link)

    Take a look at the oil as presented on the dipstick for my Escape when it was ready to be changed. That is in contradiction to the above statement.
    stever said:


    Better go spring for an oil analysis, you may have another 2,000 miles in that oil.

    That's great advertising for people who want to sell oil analysis, but its poor advice for the average consumer. These comments go from trying to tell the consumer to not spend money servicing their car correctly, to go spend their money on something that has very marginal benefits for them.
    stever said:


    Either that or just change the oil at the suggested interval and just drive it for 200,000 miles until you finally get bored with the car and dump it on the next poor slob. :p

    200K, that's easy. My Escape will reach that in about a year. Try double that, maybe more and servicing it correctly will be way cheaper than replacing the car.

  • carboy21carboy21 Member Posts: 760
    Oil sludge is a big problem in Toyota and some other brands.. I do not believe in being penny wise and pound foolish. Oil is so cheap to buy at Walmart and even the filters on Amazon. And used oil is always recycled at the dealer so I am not hurting the planet either. In the good old days one used to feel the oil from the dipstick and changed it. These set number of miles is foolish as cars are driven in different stress conditions. If I drive only Interstate everyday, I don't have to change oil for 15,ooo miles and only city driving, I will change if the oil gets dirty at even 2-3000 miles :smile:
  • steverstever Guest Posts: 52,454
    >go spend their money on something that has very marginal benefits for them.

    Like too frequent oil changes.

    C'mon EVs.
  • thecardoc3thecardoc3 Member Posts: 5,697
    They certainly don't have to service the car too frequently, but they do have to follow their manufacturers schedule, and use approved products.

  • steverstever Guest Posts: 52,454
    edited January 2016
    Finding EU service intervals for new Toyota models is difficult without paying. Not easy in the US either unless you sign up with Toyota. Down in Australia they sell a Camry that sounds similar to ours per Wikipedia. Sounds like a few engines are even shared.

    Toyota Australia says to change the oil on a Camry every 15,000 km, or 9,320 miles. (link). Some "other" models there are on a 10,000 km interval.

    I sure wish we had as good a selection of oil as Oz does to use in our Camrys. Of course they have a much milder climate than we do and it never gets over 45.8 degrees. :pB)

    Toyota online seems to say (and several Toyota dealers online agree) that it's a 5,000 mile interval for the US Camry.

    If so, is that because we have more lawyers. Or greedy dealers?
  • thecardoc3thecardoc3 Member Posts: 5,697
    I looked up the 2014 Camry specifications. Mitchell On Demand service information system has this quote from Toyota.

    Your vehicle is certified with Genuine Toyota 0W20 motor oil. For VEHICLES CERTIFIED FOR OW20 motor oil, the oil change interval is 10,000 miles or twelve months IF 0W20 MOTOR OIL IS BEING USED. If 0W20 is not available, then 5W20 mineral oil may be used. HOWEVER, it must be replaced at A 5000 mile or 6 month INTERVAL with 0W20 motor oil. For customers who primarily drive their vehicle under any Special Operating Conditions, the motor oil and filter must be replaced at 5000 miles or 6 months, REGARDLESS OF THE OIL USED (OR CERTIFICATION OF THE VEHICLE).

    So if you have a Toyota Camry, and drive it reasonably when it's time to change the oil, if the shop or customer chooses a 0W20 that is dexos approved the car can go as much as 10,000 miles between changes. Without that dexos approval, something that is only API and ILSAC approved should be replaced at 5000 miles, even if it is a 0W20.

    If you need to blame somebody, blame the oil companies. SAE 16 A/B was supposed to help the API catch up to the dexos standard and it still isn't on the shelves.



  • steverstever Guest Posts: 52,454
    edited January 2016
    Thanks for finding that. Have always heard that the European drivers were on 10,000 mile intervals for years and that they always wondered why US drivers had 3,000 mile intervals ingrained.

    I always attribute blame for that mindset on some unknown Army motor pool sergeant who was asked to come up with a maintenance schedule and he pulled it out of thin air to shut some colonel up. ;)
  • thecardoc3thecardoc3 Member Posts: 5,697
    stever said:


    I always attribute blame for that mindset on some unknown Army motor pool sergeant who was asked to come up with a maintenance schedule and he pulled it out of thin air to shut some colonel up. ;)

    There are others who deserve their share of the blame for consumers not understanding engine oil and maintenance requirements and when someone drags one of these old articles back out of the attic they should be getting exposed for what they really were doing for the consumers back when they were written. The original article that started this thread was just another attempt to smear shops and techs. At the same time it gave a free pass to the oil companies who even today continue to push products that fall short of the vehicle requirements. It was no accident that these two outcomes occurred from such articles, that was always the intended goal of the writer and the engine oil was little more than the proxy to deliver the message.

    So here we are all these years later, and service information has never been easier to find and yet some still refuse to make the effort to find it, use it, and then advise vehicle owners correctly from it. The comments from some people still resort to bashing of shops and techs and the consumer would be left in the dark if it wasn't for the efforts of a handful of people.


  • carboy21carboy21 Member Posts: 760
    edited January 2016
    My Hyundai manual has two sets of maintenance schedules. One for severe driving and other for normal driving. Severe driving constitutes stop and start short drives and frequent towing . Normal driving is going on interstate and highway most of the time. Severe driving schedule has shorter mile intervals.
    Most people lease cars/minivans /SUV and don't care a damn about maintenance as it will be someone else's baby after 3 years when the real troubles start. That is why I avoid buying used cars when I can get new ones on loan/lease installments.
  • steverstever Guest Posts: 52,454
    Well, which is it Doc?

    >another attempt to smear shops and techs

    >service information has never been easier to find and yet some still refuse to make the effort to find it, use it, and then advise vehicle owners correctly from it.

    I assume your "some" refers to the shops and techs who are incorrectly advising owners.

    @carboy21, it is interesting how "severe" conditions have changed from towing and taxi service to cover just about any driving condition. It's a very convenient defense for the dealer when you wind up with a lemon - blame the consumer who is trying to follow the advice in the owner's manual.
  • thecardoc3thecardoc3 Member Posts: 5,697
    stever said:

    Thanks for finding that. Have always heard that the European drivers were on 10,000 mile intervals for years and that they always wondered why US drivers had 3,000 mile intervals ingrained.

    In Europe ACEA sets the oil standards. http://www.acea.be/ So the products that met the needs of the vehicles to allow them to go that far between services is the norm. Here in the North America the oil companies have always set the standards, and its no secret what happened when GM came out with the dexos standard and required licensed approval. For example. http://www.edmunds.com/car-care/do-i-have-to-use-the-manufacturers-oil.html

    One of the best lines in that article is this one. "Though Dexos isn't being mandated retroactively, chances are dealers will fill their bulk tanks with it to consolidate their oil inventory."
    The reality is that dexos was a retroactive standard as GM's 6094M, 4718M, LL-A-025 and LL-B-025 all became obsolete the moment dexos1, and dexos2 became the specification. That means every GM car since 2004 should be getting served with a dexos approved product. That dexos approval also means products that meet the requirements for Ford, some Chrysler, Honda, Toyota and others. But instead of educating the consumer you have articles like the original one here, and several of the links.

    Another section of that article is quoted here .
    "Potential warranty problems: The language in some owner's manuals suggests that using an oil other than the one specified by the manufacturer will void the car's warranty. This is not the case, says Thom Smith, Valvoline's vice president of branded lubricant technology.

    According to the Magnusson-Moss Warranty Act, the onus would be on GM or another automaker to prove that a non-manufacturer oil damaged the engine. If dealers deny the warranty claim without first investigating it, they are in violation of the act, Smith says."

    It was typical to see the topic get distorted by Mag/Moss references. Then a few lines later is this.
    Flack from the oil wars: Tom Read, a spokesperson for GM's powertrain technology group, warns that using an alternative oil might diminish performance.

    "If a customer uses a non-licensed engine oil that is simply ILSAC GF-5 quality, they will not enjoy the benefits of using a Dexos-licensed product," Read says. Those benefits could include better low-temperature performance, cleaner pistons and better aeration performance, he says. "This could be especially important as the engine oil ages."

    Read's case for Dexos sounds compelling, but Valvoline's Smith isn't buying it.

    "Our SynPower 5W-20, 5W-30 and DuraBlend 5W-30 went through all the Dexos testing and passed all the requirements," Smith says. "But we felt that carrying the Dexos name was not providing the consumer with any value."


    Today, Valvoline has dexos approved products, lots of them.
    http://www.centerforqa.com/dexos-brand1/
    and
    http://www.centerforqa.com/dexos-brand2/

    Why has there never been a follow-up story to correct the deficiencies of those earlier ones? Is it because doing that wouldn't be supported by someone's agenda?
  • kyfdxkyfdx Moderator Posts: 227,993
    I think the "severe" conditions are a crock. As noted, just about everyone falls under that label.

    I will defer to @thecardoc3 on oil questions, though.. ;)

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  • steverstever Guest Posts: 52,454
    Hey @thecardoc3, what's your theory on where the infamous "3,000 mile oil change interval" came from?
  • carboy21carboy21 Member Posts: 760
    edited January 2016
    stever said:





    @carboy21, it is interesting how "severe" conditions have changed from towing and taxi service to cover just about any driving condition. It's a very convenient defense for the dealer when you wind up with a lemon - blame the consumer who is trying to follow the advice in the owner's manual.

    Any driving conditions other then driving hundreds of miles on a traffic-free freeway is indeed severe or harsh or moderately severe. If you care about keeping your car in good condition then you would not hesitate to do pro-active maintenance rather then just the token bare minimum to keep the car running, like most people do, who treat their cars as disposable appliance.
  • thecardoc3thecardoc3 Member Posts: 5,697
    stever said:

    Hey @thecardoc3, what's your theory on where the infamous "3,000 mile oil change interval" came from?

    \

    Don't need a theory, it was at the manufacturers recommended interval for "severe duty" for as long ago as I dare to bother to look up. Go look up a 1986 Buick Regal 3.8l (not the Grand National) and see what it says for yourself. Look up a 1983 Ford LTD and see what it says. Now what most people are not aware of is that there was a schedule for "Normal" duty even back then that allowed for 7500 mile oil changes. The problem was almost no-one drove their vehicle in such a manner that significant failure of the oil wasn't observed well before that 7500 mile interval so shops would try and coach the owners to service the car in a manner that would protect it better.

    Back then you had warranties that weren't anywhere near as long as they are today, and you almost never had original owners putting over 60K on their cars. By 100K, a large percentage of those cars were finding their way to the scrap yard.

    Today 100K shouldn't even raise an eyebrow, which takes us right back to reason that threads like this one exist at all. http://forums.edmunds.com/discussion/20144/chevrolet/equinox/oil-consumption-on-chevy-equinoxes#latest It's the lack of education for the vehicle owners and is reflected in the comments found in new threads like this one.
    http://forums.edmunds.com/discussion/38910/jeep/renegade/first-service-comes-early-2015-jeep-renegade-trailhawk-long-term-road-test#latest

    So I answered your question. What is your theory as to why articles that history now proves are incorrect and misleading are not only not being retracted but are being allowed to continue to stand? Who is being served by allowing them to still be presented as valid information?
  • steverstever Guest Posts: 52,454
    edited January 2016
    My understanding is that the 3,000 mile interval goes back to at least WWII. Or maybe it was WWI.

    The 80s aren't ancient history to me. :D
  • carboy21carboy21 Member Posts: 760
    edited January 2016
    stever said:

    My understanding is that the 3,000 mile interval goes back to at least WWII. Or maybe it was WWI.

    The 80s aren't ancient history to me. :D

    If you love your car and she is a keeper like your wife == 3000 miles oil change
    If you consider your car to be used, abused and disposed off like a lover == 10,000 miles oil change.

    B)
  • steverstever Guest Posts: 52,454
    edited January 2016
    It's just a car.

    I started driving them forever in '82; one for 17 years, one for 10 years, one used one for 12 years, the last van for 15 and am just in year two on the current used van. All five were slathered with unending deferred maintenance, LOL.

    Have had 5 houses since '82 too. They were all well maintained. The previous four were sold for at least as much as I paid for them. The current one is sort of for sale and if I flip it, I won't do so unless I break even.

    Try that with most any car....
  • carboy21carboy21 Member Posts: 760
    stever said:
    It's just a car. I started driving them forever in '82; one for 17 years, one for 10 years, one used one for 12 years, the last van for 15 and am just in year two on the current used van. All were slathered with unending deferred maintenance, LOL.
    Then you were very lucky to be  bestowed with very trusty and reliable vehicles who were very forgiving about your repeated abuse and neglect,  like the French Lieutenant's  woman .  :p
  • steverstever Guest Posts: 52,454
    edited January 2016
    That's the thing - I'm in a poorer part of the country and I do see the occasional vehicle broken down on the side of the road. Quintessential beaters usually.

    But even here, it's an unusual sight so you notice it. In most places you don't even see broken down vehicles on the shoulders any more. Some of that is because of limp modes that let you get home, but cars are just so much more reliable these days, even with a healthy dose of deferred maintenance.
  • carboy21carboy21 Member Posts: 760
    edited January 2016
    stever said:
    That's the thing - I'm in a poorer part of the country and I do see the occasional vehicle broken down on the side of the road. Quintessential beaters usually. But even here, it's an unusual sight so you notice it. In most places you don't even see broken down vehicles on the shoulders any more. Some of that is because of limp modes that let you get home, but cars are just so much more reliable these days, even with a healthy dose of deferred maintenance.

    -----------------------------------------------------////////

    Some people just like to keep their cars well maintained and well serviced  . Others just like to get maximum use out of them with minimum cost of maintanence . I happen to be the first type  B)
  • Mr_ShiftrightMr_Shiftright Member Posts: 64,481
    edited January 2016
    But SOME shops and techs need a little smearing :) They are supposed to know what your engine needs. Am I for instance, totally responsible for knowing the correct spark plugs that go into my car?
  • thecardoc3thecardoc3 Member Posts: 5,697

    But SOME shops and techs need a little smearing :)

    No more than do certain writers that pronounced themselves as experts.

    They are supposed to know what your engine needs. Am I for instance, totally responsible for knowing the correct spark plugs that go into my car?

    Let's keep the subject engine oil and if you want to talk spark plugs, start a thread on it. Should you know what oil your car should take? Sure, why shouldn't you. It's a choice to be uninformed today with all of the information that is available at a few keystrokes and a click or two of a mouse.
  • Mr_ShiftrightMr_Shiftright Member Posts: 64,481
    Hey, don't dodge the question you sly dog. :) The analogy to spark plugs is quite reasonable. When you go to a repair shop for an oil change, they should know, exactly and precisely, which oil your car needs, as per factory recommendations. If they don't know which oil to use, and they put in the wrong spec, and your engine develops sludge, or whatever, then that shop needs to be smeared---liberally.
  • thecardoc3thecardoc3 Member Posts: 5,697

    Hey, don't dodge the question you sly dog. :) The analogy to spark plugs is quite reasonable. When you go to a repair shop for an oil change, they should know, exactly and precisely, which oil your car needs, as per factory recommendations. If they don't know which oil to use, and they put in the wrong spec, and your engine develops sludge, or whatever, then that shop needs to be smeared---liberally.

    So how do you justify articles and consumer perspectives that smear because the shop does know what the correct specification engine oil should be used? See the Jeep thread referenced.

  • steverstever Guest Posts: 52,454
    edited January 2016
    Unfortunately the shops often don't know. Or worse, they do, and still use what's in the barrel hanging over the shop.

    The consumer may never know until the engine implodes.

    Or - they get an oil analysis after every oil change.

    Oh, and get one before an oil change too, so you aren't wasting good oil. :)
  • thecardoc3thecardoc3 Member Posts: 5,697
    stever said:

    Unfortunately the shops often don't know.

    For any that don't know maybe they could come and read some of the expert articles here, would that help them?

  • thecardoc3thecardoc3 Member Posts: 5,697
    edited January 2016
    stever said:

    > go spend their money on something that has very marginal benefits for them.

    Like too frequent oil changes. C'mon EVs.

    How do you like your EV's? I think this one is a little over done.
    http://www.autoblog.com/2016/01/05/first-supercharger-fire-tesla-model-s-norway/
  • steverstever Guest Posts: 52,454
    Car fires are, unfortunately, a dime a dozen. Better there than in someone's garage - was the X5s that were burning people's houses down a few years back?
  • Mr_ShiftrightMr_Shiftright Member Posts: 64,481
    Cars are well-equipped rolling Webers...they have the container, the fuel and the igniter all built in. Add a touch of negligent maintenance, a factory defect for garnish, a dollop of bad luck, and KABOOM, we have ignition.

    One reason I do not change my own oil anymore, is that I want the car in the shop and on the lift, and carefully examined every 5K.

    As for bad repair shops and shyster oil change operations, hopefully as cars become more and more complex, and consumers become better informed, these bad apples will be self-cancelling.





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