Subaru Legacy/Outback Wagons Maintenance & Repair

subearu

likely a difference in the 'required' stuff for the 30/60/90k etc service intervals - they're in your owner manual. What happens more often than not is the dealer has their own 'recommended' listing, which is usually more than what is 'required', and often just stuff to pad the price. YMMV.

Compare what they did and what was required in the manual.

-Brian

paisan

We do 30k/60k services for $245 here in the NYC AREA. Which is everything by the book. Timing belt check is 5-7 minutes tops. $800 sounds correct for replacing the timing belt and the 60k service. We also offer upgrades to the normal by-the-book service totalling $295 with the diffys and $365 with the diffys and engine oil being synthetics.

If you didn't authorize the timing belt replacement... they can't bill you for it.

-mike

jfl

The owner's manual says 105k miles for the timing belt change. So look at it this way: you won't need to change the timing belt again until you hit 165k miles.

Dealer coupons in the bay area were running around $500 for the 60k service.

Jim

nygreg

I upgraded my software and lost your e-mail. Please send me an e-mail about the brakes (check my profile) and I'll respond. Thank you.

Greg

ateixeira

The local dealer chargers $6xx for the 60k service, but add tax and the environmental fees and it's probably over $700.

This is a pricey region, DC suburbs, that is.

Might be worth me driving up to NY to visit paisan, LOL.

-juice

jay_24

One difference I've seen is that some places, just drain and re-fill coolant and transmission. Other places do the full flush. That can add to the cost.

--jay

vermonta

'04 SE Legacy Wagon automatic transmission problem by vermonta Apr 08, 2004 (1:12 pm)
Had an '02 with no problems - got a good deal on an '04 and bought it. The very day I got the car I noticed/felt a minor shudder/vibration in the front end when accelerating slowly from a stop. The dealership said that this was just a new car and needed to be broken in. During the second week of ownership I was coming to a stop to turn around and go in the opposite direction. I came to a full stop, shifted into reverse and stepped on the accelerator and there was a clunking noise and perceptable movement/ shudder of something transmission related underneath and up front of the car. I then shifted into drive and stepped on the accelerator and the same noise and shudder occurred. I have not had a similar experience in the 9,000 miles since then, HOWEVER,there is still a minor shudder/vibration in the front end when accelerating slowing from a start and, MORE IMPORTANTLY, when I am at a full stop - with wheels turned to the left for a left hand turn - when I step on the accelerator, slowly, the right front wheel feels as if it is slipping or not grabbing initially.This is not typical of any other '04 that I have tested. The service dept. and lead technician tell me there is nothing "out-of-spec" and if there is something wrong - I'll have to wait till it outright fails--------------because, it is too expensive for them to take apart and search for the problem. I've called Subaru headquarters and they replied that when they contacted the dealership the response was that there was absolutely nothing wrong with the car. Any suggestions as to what the problem may be and what I may do to get Subaru to stand behind this six month old car? The dealership is not interested in keeping me as a customer.

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martijnh

Thanks for the various responses to my 60k service pricing question. I would still like to hear from fellow SF Bay Area owners. However, I went through the paperwork and they *did* replace the timing belt at 60k. Did I authorize it? Yes. However, I (foolishly) expect the dealer to work according to guidelines set by Subaru of America. So from now on I have to make sure I'm intimately familiar with the 'required' vs. 'optional' maintenance. I would prefer to 'trust' the dealer for this...
I know the SoA folks post on this board. I would like to solicit their opinion. I am very fond of both our Outback and Forester, but this experience has definitely ticked me off. What (if any) is my recourse from here? I feel like I've been duped out of a few hundred $$$.

ebony5

Having the timing belt changed at the 60k service is recommended for my '96 OBW-after seeking advice from a variety of sources including this forum I also had the water pump replaced at additional expense

stever

I'd be irritated enough to complain to the state consumer protection agency. People complain about lawyers, but this is the kind of stuff that leads to big disclaimer signs everywhere.

That dealer needs one in 3 foot high letters that says Dealer Recommended Service Isn't What the Manufacturer Says is Required!

Steve, Host

paisan

EVERY dealer works that way. So it's buyer beware. Why would you blanketly believe a car dealer? Do you live in a cloud and not watch the news or read the papers? I find it funny that you are suprised that a dealer "took you for a few hunderd $" I thought it was common knowledge that they live on their service departments to make $ rather than the initial sale!

-mike

stever

I dunno - lots of people read their owners manual and go to the dealer and ask for the 30 or 60k service, expecting the dealer to follow what the manufacturer puts in the manual.

There are still lots of dealer tricks out there that not everyone has heard of.

Here's another place to vent, Martijnh (and anyone else who wants to vent about dealers, lawyers, or stale donuts):

pf_flyer "Our Software! Your Questions Answered..." Apr 8, 2004 6:04pm

Steve, Host

martijnh

Unfortunately, you might be right (re: dealer behavior, not my place of residence). Now I *really* have an issue with this!! IMO, there is a very fine line between 'recommending service which is not required' and 'replacing costly parts which aren't broken/worn'. The latter is illegal. To me, a car is a complex and expensive piece of machinery. I rely on the dealer's expertise to maintain it properly. I wouldn't recognize a worn timingbelt if it hit me in the head. I don't mind paying the dealer for honest advice and service, but I'm offended by this unethical behavior.
Constructive comments welcome. Thanks!

paisan

I'd ask to see the old one, it will look like cracked rubber and/or show fibers through the rubber if it is in fact worn. The only way I've ever seen one of the 105K belts worn at 60k was due to a failed waterpump or cracked T-belt housing which allowed contaminents to get in there.

I definitely would take issue with the dealer not at least Calling you to say "hey we found the belt to be bad, we are gonna replace it, is that ok?"

-mike

jfl

mike has a good point. I wonder what the dealer would say if you asked "According to the Owner's Manual, the timing belt is changed at 105k, why did you change it at 60k?"

After they reply, you next question(s) could be: "Really? Exactly how many have you seen fail and what does SOA say about all these failures?" or "But if SOA says 105k it doesn't make sense to change it at 60k 'just to be safe' perhaps 90k but not 60k. I feel like I've been ripped off."

BTW would you email me the name of the dealer that did this so that I can avoid them? (I do my own service but I'll still avoid them for parts or anything else.)

Jim

stever

Yes, but many of us wouldn't recognize a Subaru timing belt from a Massey Ferguson tractor belt. Don't all the service departments keep a bunch of dead parts in a box under the counter just for questions like that? :-)

Steve, Host

grahampeters

G'day

You have to remember that the reason for inspecting the part is to determine whether it is won and replace if needed. Thereofer there is a fair chance that it will require replacement. Frankly, I would rather pay for replacement rather than have a failure. they are very exciting and expensive!

Cheers

Graham

gearhead4

Vermonta,
I have a low mileage (<5000 miles) 03 Legacy Wagon which behaves somewhat like yours. I frequently feel a minor shutter when starting out, and when changing from reverse to drive. My first thought was it was still breaking in, but after 5000 miles, it is probably not going to get better by itself.
I don't experience the left front wheel problem you describe... but I also don't understand what you are saying. If you are on slippery pavement, the left front wheel will normally slip, because there is no limited slip differential on the Legacy SE, and the 4EAT trans has a Front Wheel Drive bias until it loses traction to both front wheels. Then it gradually applies power to the rear wheels.
That being said, I still think you and I are experiencing similar behavior that I do not consider normal. I suggest you visit the dealer again. I plan to visit my dealer to address the problem. I will let you know what happens.

Jim (jim.walsh@pop.net)

ebony5

I posted a message on March 23rd #2884 in reference to low brake fluid-took it to Subaru and they mentioned a leak in the ABS pump-had the system flushed-now approx.350 miles later the brake fluid resoirvior is down about 1/3rd.On the 23rd the service representative mentioned a price of about $1500.00 to replace the ABS pump on my '96 OBW. I live in NYC and am wondering if a second opinion is called for and where to go for it? I had both front and rear brakes done recently the front about 700 miles ago the rear about 3000. This problems seems to have surfaced after the second time the brakes were repaired and the gasket in the brake fluid resorvior was not seated properly. Any ideas on how to deal with this situation?- if the pump has to be replaced is there a less expensive option? the car has about 68k on it- any ideas would be appreciated.Also any suggestions about another mechanic to look over the situation. Thanks

lfdal

There's only so many things that can happen with brake fluid that will show a lower level in the reservoir - It can boil away, it can fill the lines as the pads/shoes wear away, or it can leak.

Anything other than that will be something I haven't seen before, which is certainly possible.

Do the brakes feel good - even stopping, no pulling, no squeaking or squealing, does the pedal stay up?

Leaky places to check for include the calipers on the front, the wheel cylinders on the rear (does it have rear drums?), a weeping brake line - although those tend to leak a lot once they fail, the master cylinder which can occasionally leak back into the power brake unit such that you can't see it but normally the fluid goes down pretty quick and will occasionally get into the passenger compartment.

Is there any way you can give the car a really good look-see (pop the wheels / drums etc) and check for a fluid leak? In 15K of driving, our OBW has gone from being level with the 'Max' line to being less than 3/8's of an inch below it. Still well above the 'Min' line before I topped it off.

I did notice the fluid in the OBW was starting to get dark at 15k, which is sooner than I'm used to seeing that happen. I had the brake fluid replaced (its only $30 for the dealer to do the full flush, not just bleed them).

I would think even if the ABS pump was internally leaking, the brake fluid has to go somewhere. The fact that it happened after the second service (front brakes) would make me wonder if one of the calipers has a slow leak (I'm assuming front disc?).

Also, why were they messing with the seal on the brake fluid reservoir? Was it previously leaking or did they fix it as part of the service? I'm not used to seeing that seal ever fail on any car. I wonder if they were power flushing the lines and over pressurized the seal. I've seen the one man bleeder systems and they're normally low pressure.

Just some thoughts - HTH

Larry

fibber2

As Larry said, 99% of the time it leaks somewhere in which it can be seen. It becomes really obvious it it drips onto painted surfaces, as it stains/damages when left for long. The only other place it can go, but this is indeed rare, is out of the plunger seal and into the power brake booster itself. The vacuum draw on the booster then sucks it into the intake manifold, where it is burned away! Magic - no telltale signs, but constantly dropping fluid level.

Steve

ebony5

Thanks for the input-Well there is no squeaking,pulling etc-before the system was flushed on March 23rd the service rep. said that there was fluid visible around the ABS pump-after flushing and a test drive no leak was seen-but now the fluid has depleted so much that the sensor caused the brake light to go on today-As I said there are new pads and machined rotors all around, so something is wrong somewhere-from the above postings I guess I should ask them to check that the work was done properly calipers etc. Any other suggestions on where else to look? I just hope it is not the ABS pump which is so expensive but I am not optimistic as the service rep seemed to indicate that if the problem persisted it is most likely that. Again I would not mind a second opinion but am at a loss as to where to go. My experiences with the service rep. have not been unpleasant he has been extremely cooperative, courteous, and helpful, but he is not the person working on my car. I live in NYC so anywhere within reason in the tri state area is possible

jdi

Recenly had intermittent problem with 2000 Outback with 50k. Vehicle would rev as if in neutral when trying to start after a stop. Dealer checked twice but said that they could not find anything wrong. Seems to happen more and more frequently and got 'stranded' at intersections a couple times. Car started again after trying a few times.
Anyone with similar problems?
Is this a transmision problem?
Is this under warranty (powertrain)?
I would be very disappointed with the car if this requires an expensive fix and would consider trading it in for another brand...
Any advice welcome.

hypov

Have you called 1-800-SUBARU3 to start a case file?

Don't know where in NYC you're at, I'm in Brooklyn and I take my car in to Metric Subaru in Huntington, LI [appt needed]. I've been very satisfied with their service; you could give them a try for second opinion.

-Dave

joeb24

I have a 2001 Outback LL Bean H3.0. I have been very happy with it up to this point, but seems like things are going sour all of a sudden. I have 55,000 miles in about 3.5 years. I just had to replace a radiator (private mechanic, not dealer, said it was leaking), including hoses and serpentine belt. Also, I indicated power steering is offering quite a bit of resistance at times when car is standing still. Mechanic said rack and pinion steering is deteriorating and would cost $1200. to replace! Seems odd that these major repairs would show up at this early stage. Any comments?
Also, with the 60,000 mile maintenance coming soon, does this car have a timing belt, or chain? If a belt, was is Subaru's recommendation for replacement?

ateixeira

Chain for the H6.

I wonder if the PS is covered by the powertrain warranty. Call 800-SUBARU3 and ask.

-juice

paisan

Nothing outside the block, tranny and differentials is included. Big items are accessories and ECU/TCUs that are NOT covered as well as sensors.

-mike

subaru_team

Situations like this are a bit sticky for us to get infolved in because we would be "interfering" on a retail transaction. That being said, I'd like to review this a bit. Did you call into us? If you did - or if you want to - please advise the Rep. that I want to see the case.

The first steps when there is a problem with a retail transaction is to express your dissatisfaction with the Manager of the dept. (in this case - the Service Manager). If you do not feel that your concerns are addressed appropriately, send a certified letter to the General Manager. Also, let us know. We do report on problems like this throughout the company, but also to the regional offices who discuss the issue with the dealership. Our actions are more related to long term improvement at the facility, but it doesn't do much to help with the specific situation.

The Rep. in CDS will call the dealer and ask them how they intend to address the problem. Most dealers try to do the right thing and resolve the problem. In fact, there are very few that I have dealt with that didn't try to set things right.

So - let us (SOA) know? I am sorry for the situation. It does matter to us and I hope it is eventually resolved.

Thanks!

Patti

nygreg

after searching for after market rotors and pads, and finding out that my choices are limited (01 OB) I have decided to go with standard replacement rotors and Wagner pads, not slotted or drilled as I originally wanted. The performance auto store I ordered from said his database states these cars have underdesigned brakes and most likely will warp again in the future. Slotted or cross drilled will help, but are 3x the price. So after dropping $200 and installing them later this week, I will let you know how it goes.

Greg

paisan

Greg should have talked to me.... I would have suggested buying a particular brand if you were gonna go stock size, or offer some other upgrade options for you that are relatively low-buck.

-mike

tomr

Well the Subie is finally past the 1000mile break in period without any hic-ups but one. When I first start the car up it has developed a rattle that sounds like it is coming from the front passenger door. It only last for 30 seconds or so while I am warming up the car. It is not coming from anything in the glove box or any storage areas. It almost sounds as if a seat belt buckle is hitting a plastic part. Any ideas?

nygreg

thanks. That amount is for all 4 rotors and pads. I think it is a pretty good price. The store seemed confident in the brand of rotors, but, the name escapes me now.

Greg

c_hunter

What would you recommend for an 02 LL Bean Outback? If I remember right, it has slightly larger front rotors than the H4 Outbacks, but they still warp.

Craig

paisan

I'd suggest getting WRX brackets for the calipers and then get a set of WRX rotors. Brembos or Mountains for daily use, if you want to up-rate em go for some stoptecs, racingbrake.com, or dbas.

For daily use I just suggest getting stockers (Brembo or Mountains) and replace as necessary, they are relatively inexpensive.

-mike

ateixeira

Try holding the seat belt out before you start her up. Isolate the noise, then you can address it. Some have complained about the seat belt in Foresters making noise up against the B-pillar.

-juice

tomr

Thanks Juice I think I may have found the problem the center seatbelt may have become loose in the headliner area. I will see if that works when I drive the subie again. I am still putting miles on the corolla 269,000 and counting. Drove the outback in the pouring rain and remembered why I bought it.

tomr

Well the seatbelt was not the problem, the rattle sounds like it is coming from the passenger side dash or door. I hear it when I first start up the car and put the car in reverse then stop to close the garage. Then I hear it for the next 10 miles of local road driving. While at highway speeds the car is quiet with no rattles. I guess I will just wait and see if it gets any worse if it doesn't I can live with it.

ateixeira

Check the speaker grille, maybe?

-juice

rob999

Also check the PS vent grille on the upper corner of the dash. On my car, the supply tube rattled against the vent grille so I popped out the grille and quieted the connection with foam tape.

While I had the vent grille out, I moved some electrical connectors away from the supply tube. Through either the former or latter fix the sound went away.

subaru_team

today to see if I could come up with something to help - but no luck! I'd suggest you mention it the next time you go to the dealer. Another set of ears might just help locate it - even if it is hard to recreate the scenerio. This is a stumper!

Patti

tomr

Thanks all I really do need another set of ears. I will sit in the passenger seat and let my son drive this weekend. On second thought make that my daughter that way I can listen instead of telling my son to slow down!

catlady245

Today after putting my 2000 Outback in park, I tried unsuccessfully to pull the key out of the ignition. I then re-started the car and drove off to another destination where again after putting the car in park, the key would not release. Later in the day, my husband worked through the gears and finally it released the key.

Tonight as I was putting "olive" to bed, she again would not release the key!!

Has anyone experienced this hell and any ideas on the cause of the problem? Since our car has it's original battery, do you think its battery related?

mjc440

I would say it's definitely not the battery.

It's probably one of two things:

1.) There may be pressure on the ignition switch from the steering wheel (from the mechanism that locks the steering wheel when the key is removed). Try moving the steering wheel to the right or left to relieve pressure off the ignition switch, and see if it make it easier to remove the key.

2.) There's a mechanism that will not allow the key to be removed if the vehicle is not in Park (or neutral?). This is most likely the cause since your husband was able to remove the key after playing around with the gears.

ateixeira

2 above if it's auto, 1 if it's a MT.

-juice

mayboys

I have a '96 Outback 2.5 w/108,000 miles on it. Just recently I have noticed the idle down about 500 rpms, this causes the vehicle to shutter and it feels like it is going to die. Have not had the time to take it to the dealer and can't find how/if one can bump up the idle speed. Any advice?

paisan

If you blow the fuse for the horn/hazzards, it will not allow you to lock the steering wheel nor remove the keys.... Had this issue on Hypov's car on Friday.

-mike

ateixeira

I don't think you can manually adjust the idle, so it's the ECU. Try resetting it. Disconnect the negative battery terminal for 20 minutes, reconnect, then start it up and let it idle 'til warm.

-juice

fibber2

I seem to remember something in the owners manual, or a supplement sheet about what to do if the key was stuck. Didn't they supply a small #2 philips for removing the steering column shroud or indicate a place to poke for getting it out? I am trying to do this from memory, but will try and find it out tonight.

Steve

hypov

Yup, had my key stuck, and it won't come out.
As it turned out, as mike said, I blew the horn/hazzards fuse.

Tell tale signs:

1 - key will not release.
2 - steering wheel will not lock
3 - key in ignition chime [reminder] will not sound when door is open.
4 - hazzards will not work.

-Dave

note to SoA: Add that troubleshoot in Owner's Manual.

sebberry

I have noticed this funny sound when cruising between 120-160Km/h, possibly from the transmission.

It does not happen at any one speed, and the sound cuts in sharply, lasts just under a second then goes away. Sometimes it repeats itself during the commute. There is no change in the way the car feels, or a noticable change in engine speed.

The only sound I could compare it to would be one that the starter makes when you turn the ignition to "start" with the engine running, but quieter.

If anyone has any thoughts, please let me know. I will be calling the dealer tomorrow to make an appt.

Thanks,