Subaru Legacy/Outback Wagons Maintenance & Repair

mcrair

Yesterday, I brought my 00 Outback with manual transmission into the dealer with clutch problems...specifically, the clutch would sometimes get stuck on the floor. Often, though not always, when you pushed the clutch down to switch gears, it wouldn't pop up again unless you pried it up from the floor with your foot.

The dealer said I needed a new clutch, and replaced it for US$1100. However, as I drove the car home from the dealer, the clutch was still getting stuck on the floor, on occasion (though they have obviously put in a new clutch, because it engages much closer to the floor). I brought the car back this morning and am waiting to hear what the new diagnosis is.

Two questions:

1) Any educated guesses what the problem is?

2) Any suggestions about what I should do with respect to paying for the fix? I'm a little frustrated about paying $1100 to put in a new clutch, which wasn't the cause of my problems. What is a reasonable solution for this? Pay for parts but not labor for the 'new' fix?

Any input is very appreciated.

friendly_jacek

I understand that many people (including independent mechanics and Subaru mechanics) recommend inserting the FWD fuse for summer driving for improved MPG in AWD Subarus. While some people experienced 1-2 MPG improvement, I have heard of a person boasting over 20% improvement. While I am tempted to try it, I want to make sure it is safe for the drivetrain. According to the manual, it is OK to do it temporarly, but there is no warning that it could be harmful long-term.
Any experience with FWD here on this board?

Related question. Sometimes ECU reset is recommended in cases of poor mileage. Does it really work, and how?

BTW, my car is 2000 legacy wagon with AT. MPG ranges 16-24 depending on driving conditions. 24 is with pure hwy driving.

Re: 30,000 miles service. In my 2000 legacy it includes more than "to replace the brake fluid and air cleaner in addition to the regular service".
From what I remember the following are replaced:
engine oil and filter, air filter, fuel filter, coolant, brake fluid, AT fluid, spark plugs.
In my area, it runs slightly over $300.
If 2003 LL bean requires less maintanance, it should be less than that.

rob999

This sounds more like a problem with the hydraulic clutch cylinder (similar to a brake master cylinder) that actuates the clutch.

I'd open a case with Subaru on this one.

c_hunter

How many miles on the car? You should call the Subaru 1-800 number and start a case with them. I'd be mighty upset if I just spent $1100 for a haphazard guess!!

Could be an issue with the clutch engagement hydraulics -- there is a master cylinder and a slave cylinder if I remember right. First thing to check is the fluid level for the clutch hydraulics (this is separate from the manual transmission fluid).

If the original problem seemed to be related to hot weather, I would definitely suspect the clutch cylinders and/or fluid level. That fluid can actually boil in certain conditions, causing exactly the symptom you described. Low fluid level would also be suspect.

Good luck! Let us know how it works out.

I'm on my way to the beach for a couple days!

Craig

ateixeira

Subaru has stated the H6 makes 212hp on premium fuel and 208hp on regular fuel, so you lose about 4hp as it retards the ignition slightly.

The 2005 H6s make 250hp now, so it's likely there will be a bigger loss for using regular fuel, since I think they upped the compression.

The 2005 also gets a 5 ratio auto tranny, and IMO that was the big improvement, not the engine's extra HP.

-juice

mcrair

Our Outback has just over 60,000 miles.

I don't think this is an issue with hot weather...the problem with the clutch sticking to the floor actually initially showed up when the car was first started in the morning. After warming up a bit, the problem would disapate somewhat, though now it is happening when the car is warm or cold.

Thanks for the input. Still looking for some answers...

hotx3

   My dealer wanted to put on a new head ($2000 on a 2000 Focus) to cure a stalling problem. I took the car to another dealer, who replaced the fuel pump under warranty and cured the problem.
   When I went back to my regular dealer to get the diagnostic fee back, he said he would have absorbed the cost of the head replacement if that wasn't the proper fix. It was his lucky day when I took my car elsewhere. He refunded everything I'd paid on the initial visit, even an oil change.
   This should be your starting point when you talk to the dealer. Did you have them keep the old parts?
   Good luck.

subaru_team

a case file. Please tell your Representative that I'd like to see the case. We'll check it out for you. Sorry for the agg.

Thanks,

Patti

subaru_team

insert the fuse to try to improve MPG. It is really only for use while servicing the car or when you have to use the donut spare (for the tire size difference). I think this misunderstanding started when folks thought that the additional weight of the AWD components. Putting the fuse in doesn't change the weight. There may be more to the reasoning for doing this, but the other folks here could help explain that myth better than I. Anyway, the car was designed to be AWD, so I'd recommend that you keep it that way unless you are using the spare.

Thanks!

Patti

paisan

You won't save anything, the car still needs to push the resistance of the center differential and rear diffy etc. You may get worse milage actually.

-mike

joybell

My brother in law and I each had Loyale wagons. Mine was FWD and his "on-demand 4WD". He hardly ever engaged the 4WD and we got the same gas mileage. I don't think weight is the only reason. I think it takes more gas to run more wheels. My brother in law still has that 92 Loyale with over 250K on it!

ochssk

Had my Bean serviced on Monday and sure enough the rotors were warped. They machined them so I suspect it'll happen again, probably after the warranty expires. They use a torque bar on the air gun but I will check the torque tonight with my wrench to be sure.

The weird thing is the back brakes were more warped than the front and the rear pads had to be replaced (under warranty). I always thought the front brakes wore faster? Go figure.

Steve

gord7

I suspect that may be what will happen to me too, next warping after warranty expires but may just sneak in under the 36 months. Rear rotors on my 2003 Legacy Wagon were also more warped than the fronts (going by the amount machined off) and wear on the pads twice the front wear. Advised by service manager this they see this often on Subarus but first time I have seen rears wearing this much faster than fronts in 40 years of driving (and maintaining).

No complaints, other than minor quirks, after 30K km on the Legacy just disappointed that I can not justify a change to the 2005 for quite a time!

Gordon

paisan

My brother in law and I each had Loyale wagons. Mine was FWD and his "on-demand 4WD". He hardly ever engaged the 4WD and we got the same gas mileage. I don't think weight is the only reason. I think it takes more gas to run more wheels. My brother in law still has that 92 Loyale with over 250K on it!

Totally different scenario. On the part-time 4wd units that were produced in those years they were designed to be driven on-road in FWD (you can't drive em on-road in 4wd) and when they disengaged the rear wheels it is physically and totally disconnected, unlike with the viscous coupling of the MT AWD system or the electronic AWD system found on the automatics.

-mike

paisan

I've never seen rotors get warped on subies EVER. I've seen pad transfer that creates hills and valleys but never the rotor iteself warped.

-mike

gord7

Mike
Saw your previous post about pad transfer and if I wasn't still in warranty would have given it a try. My question is, if Subaru rotors do not warp why are Subaru paying for either machining or rotor replacement under warranty. The pad refacing would be much cheaper for them.

Living in a fairly hilly (even mountainous area) have never had warping problems previously except on a full size Ford wagon years ago. Dealer blames over heating due to riding brakes downhill but on my wife's Acuras over the last 14 years (who never shifts down going downhill) no problems. What I have noticed with the Legacy is that the rotors pick up surface rust much quicker, and in greater volume, than our other vehicles (Honda, Acura, Mazda, VW). Could this be something that causes the pad transfer / warping?
Gordon

mcrair

Patti,

I called my case into the 800 Subaru number. They took my details down (you'll be able to find my file, I'm sure, using my name: M. Crair, if not, please tell me). Subaru also told me to first try and handle the situation directly with the dealer. If the dealer did not provide 'satisfactory' relief, then I should contact Subaru again, and they would try to intervene.

I'm still without my car...though the dealer now says it is a problem with the clutch hydraulics ('master cylinder'), instead of the clutch itself. I hope they are right this time.

The question remains, however, how much am I supposed to pay for these supposed 'repairs'?

Mike

subaru_team

I just sent a note to Petra and her Manager asking for a bit more intervention. I'm sure you'll be happy as both are very dedicated to our customers. Once again - I'm sorry.

Patti

paisan

Gordon,
    Not sure, but it could be the pad material is poorly matched with the rotor compound. I know for instance the DBA rotors that were sold with wilwood 4-pot brakes to a lot of WRX owners back in '02-03 have a similar problem. The pad material was not matched up well with the rotors and there was a lot of pad transfer causing shaking etc. In fact right now i'm in the process of tracking down the correct pads for the wilwood calipers for a customer who is ditching the DBAs and putting on some of our racingbrake.com rotors.

My guess on the dealer replacing is that they don't know about the pad transfer and figures hey if FHI is gonna pay us to do a resurface or replace, might as well do it. Or the usual "the book says to do XYZ, so we are doing that" instead of what may be more correct.

-mike

ochssk

Mine were definitely warped. I was getting increasing vibration braking at high speeds.

Retorqued the lug nuts this morning. Did a search of posts and it looks like 55 - 75 ft-lbs was the acceptable range. I went for 65. Someone please correct me if the setting is wrong for the alloy wheels on the LL Bean model. I did notice at least one of the lugs on each wheel was beyond the torque of the others.

Thx

Steve O

friendly_jacek

"On the part-time 4wd units that were produced in those years they were designed to be driven on-road in FWD (you can't drive em on-road in 4wd) and when they disengaged the rear wheels it is physically and totally disconnected, unlike with the viscous coupling of the MT AWD system or the electronic AWD system found on the automatics."

Forget the viscous coupling, FWD fuse does not work on MT.

The best I understand, in AT AWD, when you insert the FWD fuse, the rear wheels ARE "physically and totally disconnected". The fuse fully activates the duty solenoid C which drops ATF pressue from the center differential and the cluch pack disengages the rear wheels.
I could be wrong, so please correct me.

c_hunter

Yeah, the ones on my 00 and 02 Outback were warped too. I actually saw the feeler gauge bouncing around on the rotors of my 02 when they were diagnosing it.

Craig

ponytrekker

Warped rotors are a known issue with the outbacks -- all of them. Mine were resurfaced for free at 35k.

dontruitt

MY 2003 LLBean. When I set the auto climate control and it starts with A/C, it always goes into recirculate. The dealer says this is the way it is supposed to be. The manual says that outside air is the default. Even leaving it run for over half an hour doesn't get it to switch to outside air. I called the 800 number and was told that inside default is correct. (But they will not say the manual is wrong) Any one else with this experience? What is correct?

c_hunter

Depends on the outside temp and humidity. Mine is on recirc most of the time in hot weather. In mild or cooler weather, it does switch to outside air.

Craig

paisan

The best I understand, in AT AWD, when you insert the FWD fuse, the rear wheels ARE "physically and totally disconnected". The fuse fully activates the duty solenoid C which drops ATF pressue from the center differential and the cluch pack disengages the rear wheels.
I could be wrong, so please correct me.

Yes, but by fully activating the duty solenoid C, you increase the wear on this item, which is not meant to be fully activated all the time. The rear is not fully disengaged from the transmission in the fashion that it is in a part-time system, as was previously described for the part-time 4wd systems of the older subies <90ish.

-mike

swadeekap1

Hey folks,

I just recently purchased a 1995 Lsi Legacy wagon. And what a beautiful car it is! I purchased it from a dealership in California and the previous owners obviously had taken great care of it. It's loaded with AWD/ABS, CD/Tape, leather (looks like new), sunroof, etc. There does seem to be a problem with the speedometer. When accelerating from 0-25 the speedometer jumps all over the place: I'll be driving 5 mph and it shows it at 30. If I press on the accelerator, the speedometer seems to "catch" and show my exact speed. It's not a big problem, but might anyone know about this problem?

My real question, however, has to deal with the gas milage of this year and make. I have read that the 1995 wagons experienced some electrical problems and some owners don't use the gas gage to tell how full or low they may be. Does anyone out there know what milage the 1995 LSi wagon can presume to achieve on a full tank?

Thanks all!

grahampeters

G'day

I am not sure whether the 95 uses a cable drive for the speedometer but what you are describing sounds like a binding or failing cable. It is usually fairly simple to replace by a mechanic but a bit tricky at home.

On the fuel economy front. Check the fuel tank size from owners manual, fill the tank, drive 400 miles (well within bounds for any Subaru, refill and check usage.

Cheers

Graham

dcm61

On the fuel economy front. Check the fuel tank size from owners manual, fill the tank, drive 400 miles (well within bounds for any Subaru, refill and check usage.

I would drive no more than 300 miles. I think you'll be walking before you get to 400 miles. The most miles I've every driven on a tank with my '96 Outback (same tank as '95 Leg. LSI) was 380 miles and that was a long pretty much 55 mph trip. I usually filled up around 300 miles. Of course, YMMV as my OB was a 2.5L and yours is a 2.2L.

DaveM

snowbelter

Had the 30k service performed on my 02 VDC at my local dealer a few weeks back. Now the pedal is pulsating when I stop. The dealer confirmed warped rotors back at 17k and "ground" them, (I believe with an "off the car lathe"). At 26K the dealer replaced worn front brakes and "ground the rotors". At the 30K service, the coolant was drained and replaced. A few hundred miles later, I noticed the overflow tank was empty and I added more than a pint of coolant water mix. No sign of any leaks from hoses, etc. Talked with the dealer about both problems. I hope the dealer and Subaru replaces the warped rotors with new rotors when I bring the car back rather than "grinding" them a third time. The dealer agrees with my guess that they didn't get all the air out of the radiator when they changed the coolant and that's why more than a pint "vanished". Told me coolant changes are "tricky". I suspect they are only tricky when they are done quickly and aren't bled properly. My wife and I love our Subarus (she just upgraded an OB to an 04 VDC), but these cars eat brakes and rotors. When we are off warranty, these will be an expensive proposition. The Service Manager tells me Subaru hasn't come out with an improved rotor even with all the warping problems. Has anyone had Subaru cover new rotors or pay for turning them after 36K miles?

mchin

Hi all,
 We have a 04 OB sedan. When I start the engine, I notice that the RPM jumps between 1500 and 2000. Is this normal? I was wondering if anyone has come across this and what is the normal RPM idle speed?
Thanks.

mmullin

Last month I wrote: "Occasionally on starting our 2000 Outback the engine will rev until the manual transmission is put in neutral, then the revving quits. Put it back in gear and it revs again but drive away and it runs fine. No revving at any other time. If it's started in neutral no revving." Since then the car has revved twice on starting causing the cel to go on. Putting it in neutral hasn't helped but again after driving off it runs ok. After re starting a couple of times the light stays off. We live in a rural area and are 1 1/2 hours from the closest Subaru dealer. Will get there asap to have a diagnostic done but until then any ideas/thoughts about this? Thanks

c_hunter

If the most recent bout of warped rotors came shortly after a dealer service, I bet they over-torqued your lugs. It happens every darn time the dealer works on my car (which is infrequent and easy to pinpoint). Last time I could hardly get the lugs off when it came time to rotate the tires myself. And sure enough, I had a recurrent warping problem after their service. So, I would not be surprised if the dealer is screwing it up.

I'm going to replace my front rotors when the time comes for new front pads, and maintain a vigilant watch on lug torque from then on out.

Craig

snowbelter

Craig: I, too, was thinking the dealer may have contributed to the warping by overtighening the lug nuts (they rotated and balanced the tires). With two Subarus in our garage, I'm going to have to invest in a torque wrench. Martin

friendly_jacek

Thanks Mike,
I agree with you, there seems to be some risk of damaging solenoid C.
BTW, I experimented and inserted the FWD fuse (for limited driving only) and discovered no difference in MPG.

grahampeters

G'day

Whoops. Lost something in transaltion from kilometers to miles. Should have said 300 miles. Hope you are not walking!

Cheers

Graham

blackbean

Bringing my '02 Bean in to the dealer for the 30K service today. Will be requesting brake service - again (new rotors at 1k, new pads at 22k) due to vibration/shaking when braking from highway speeds (they were actually warped AND had pad transfer). Suspect they will turn or grind the rotors this time as they aren't too bad.
I will also check torque as soon as I get home and report back - I also suspect over-torquing as major culprit.
On the tire front, recently replaced OEM RE92's (which sucked in the wet!) with Bridgetstone RE950's and they are fantastic overall and superb in the rain (I have dedicated winter tires). I'll keep you posted on how they wear.
Cheers,
Matt

c_hunter

I have heard a lot of great things about the RE-950, and was planning to put them on my LLB when the time comes. I'm at about 41K miles now, and the RE-92 tires still appear to have a lot of tread left.

Craig

paisan

I wouldn't worry too much about the rotors. Once you are out of warranty pickup a set of replacement rotors (shoot me an e-mail for details). I use slotted rotors from racingbrake.com on my race car and street car and cannot warp them even driving like a madman on the track with 110->30 stops over and over for 1/2 hr or more.

-mike

blackbean

Hi All,
Just got back from 30k service at dealer. They replaced my front rotors for free (again!) and then torqued ALL the lug nuts to over 130 ft lbs!!! Several on each wheel were OVER 140 (well off the scale of my torque wrench!!!). Having suspected this as a cause of the warping before, I immediately checked when I got home - and I was shocked! Shouldn't the dealer take a little more care? I know this isn't the only cause of rotor warping, but it must be a significant contributor.
 
I got new tires at COSTCO a month ago, and they HAND TORQUED all the lug nuts (I still checked immediately, but they were all spot on!). Why can't the dealer do this? You would think SOA would catch on to this? It must cost them some serious dollars (not too mention customer loyalty!!!) Does Patti have any influence here?

On other service notes, overall they did do a good job with the service, tightened up the heat shield that was vibrating/rattling on cold starts (from my earlier post), and they did the recall on the cruise control clip, but the service set me back $457!!! YIKES! Oh well, considering all the service was free until now, I guess it isn't too bad for two years. I also got a new 2004 Outback as a free loaner car.

Cheers,
Matt

c_hunter

That does sound high for the 30K service. It's less than $100 worth of parts/materials (I did the service on my Bean myself). Yes, it's a couple hours of time, but what is the hourly rate!?!

It would be good for you to talk to the dealer about the overtorqued lugs, perhaps follow up with Patti and SOA. Not only could it be causing the rotor problem (highly likely), it could also lead to stressed/snapped studs and even prevent you from getting the nuts off in an emergency. Last time the dealer overtorqued mine, I damn near hurt myself getting them off in my garage. If we got caught somewhere with a flat tire and the puny Subaru lug wrench, no way would we have been able to loosen those nuts.

Craig

lfdal

We had a flat leaving the movie theater a couple of weeks ago. I'm very careful to set / reset the torque on the lug nuts to the right value. My wife couldn't understand why I bothered until I had her loosen the lug nuts,(it was her car after all). Having had to call AAA (and waiting and waiting) to change a flat for her before because she couldn't get the lug nuts off, she no longer thinks I'm OCD. Well, at least about wheel nut torque. I also let her find and install the FWD fuse at the same time. Good training for when it happens and I'm not with her.

Larry

subaru_team

that issue, but we're not. I'm also very heavily involved in QC of claims and related issues. We have many processes in place to address that, but help from our customers goes a long way. You may get a Service Survey from us (our Owner Loyalty Program). Please include comments related to your experience. We see all surveys with comments and contact the dealers. With something like this, we would review the situation with them very carefully. Or - shoot us an e-mail via the "contact us" section of Subaru.com. Please note that I'm interested in seeing the message.

I'm sorry that happened. Dang - that was extreme!

Patti

hanskloss

Who can help me to fix this problem?
I started smelling burned oil odor through my vents so I got under the car and I noticed a great amount of lubricant dropping on my exhaust from the axle seal (where the axle is attached to the differential). It was when car had 28,200 miles. I went to the dealer for checking this stuff. They said this is normal, the axle is venting blah blah blah. Obviously they cleaned it so car was given to me without the leak. After another 400 miles it happened again. I made a picture, went to the dealer, showed this picture- immediately I was told that's a bad axle seal and it needs to be replaced. So they supposedly fixed it. Why supposedly? Because after another 500 miles it HAPPENED AGAIN (leaking dropping on my exhaust and generating vomiting like smell). What should I do now? What it a sloppy work at dealer's shop or they just did nothing and fooled me claiming that replacement was done? Of course that I am going back to the dealer but how can I made it fixed permanently? The car is still under warranty (Subaru Outback Wagon 2001). Any help is greatly appreciated

blackbean

Patti -
Thanks for your response. I appreciate your attention to this. I know this must be an area of concern for Subaru, as it seems very abnormal that a vehicle driven under "normal" conditions would need two sets of new rotors in less than 30,000 miles! (By comparison, I have never needed rotors on previous vehicles - one owned for 9 years and 150k).
And yes, I will absolutely fill out the customer survey if I get one. Let me say again, the service from Natick Subaru here in MA has been wonderful overall, very professional and competent - so I don't intend to have a negative tone - it just seems so odd that this severe over torquing should happen so consistently.
Thanks,
Matt

bat1161

I have what may sound like a dumb question, but as someone once said, "there are no dumb questions, just unasked ones." How do you check what the torque setting on the wheel nuts are? Do you have to take them off nad then re-torque, or can you just apply the wrench to the nut and see where the reading comes out?

Thanks,
Mark

rob999

Ya gotta back off the nut first. Otherwise the wrench will indicate the desired setting even though it's cranked down tighter.

gord7

This subject seems to be one that appears regularly on this board. As noted in a previous post I had the problem at 30K km and it was fixed by machining the rotors.

With the frequency this problem appears I'm surprised Subaru have not resolved. Is it a problem on subies worldwide and on both import and North America built Subies? After all the use of impact wrenches for lug nut tightening is worldwide, as is over tightening!

Surely Subaru are tired of paying out for machining or rotor replacement under warranty. I note paisan's comments about pad transfer but I know mine were warped as I saw the gauge as the rotors were turned. Also noted the after market rotors and have the name in my manual for when the time comes.

Gordon

nygreg

I have had several instances of warped rotors and recently changed all 4 rotors. Although over torquing will cause problems, I think there is too much emphasis on this for this problem. I have been very careful about the torque on my wheels and still the rotors warped...several times.

Greg

c_hunter

To check, I keep raising the torque setting of the wrench until it doesn't click and turns the lug a little. Then you know that's about where they tightened it down to.

It's somewhat inaccurate, since you have to free the lug and tighten it at the same time, but should not be more than 15-20% wrong. When I see 150 ft-lbs, I know they tightened them WAY too much!

Craig