Stop here! Let's talk about brakes

dudette3

bpeebles, thanks for the reply. do you know why one side would wear faster than the other? how do you recommend I find out? i asked the mechanic and he suggested it could be many things ie. temperature, if i put more load on one side of the car than the other, etc. how would i dig into this further? thanks..

p0ck3tac3s

I really appreciate all of your comments. I will probably just let them be for awhile because I am covered under my warranty anyways. Its just really annoying at times. Thanks again for the comments. I will probably come back again when I have more issues. I HOPE I DONT!!!

bpeebles

Most common reason for one side wearing more than others is sticking. -- either the pads or the calipers. Second most common reason is air in the brake lines. Even a small air-bubble can act like a "spring" and keep the caliper from fully retracting. (the pads rub on the rotor while driving)

I would suggest a thorough PM (Preventive Maintaince) on the front brakes. This would include filing the pad pressure-points, lubing all rubbing surfaces and checking the caliper sliders.

It is IMPOSSIBLE for more load on one side of the car to affect the wearing of the brakepads. The pressure in the hydrolic system is supposed to be IDENTICAL from side-to-side. Weight in the vechicle cannot change that fact. Brake wear is directly tied to the pressure the calipers exert on the pads against the rotors.... There is NO RELATION AT ALL to the weight on a specific wheel. Basic high-school physics.

Your mechanic may not be trained in engineering... but should have a basic understanding of the problem he is trying to resolve.

apublic1

Hi,
I have a 95 Hyundai accent that will need front rotors soon. I'm going to buy them online. I'm looking for suggestions on good Rotors and good pads that go well together. I'm an average highway driver. I have a standard. There is so much to choose from.

thanks,
arlene :confuse:

wtd44

I have very recently enjoyed the gratification that comes from finding an exceptional solution to the old, nagging problem of selecting optimal pads and rotors. Jeep Grand Cherokees of even very recent vintage have a history of typically warping front disks early on. My daughter bought her first new car, a 2004 Jeep GC, about 1.5 years ago, and proceeded to put 21+ thousand miles on it, and developed an at-speed braking shimmy of large proportion. An old friend of mine who works as a service writer for a large NAPA machine shop operation helped us out with an excellent solution. He had been to a NAPA continuing education program on brakes about a year earlier. The result was my buying the top grade of NAPA front disks and the NAPA Ceramix front pads. I cannot recall a more gratifying end result than this one for an aftermarket selection of brake parts. I swear, the brakes truly seem to perform better than the factory originals ever did. I think I'm onto something here!

ruking1

Thanks for the heads up on NAPA brake products. I have heard on other web sites and car affinity groups about the high quality of these products. I think I will check out the nearest NAPA parts jobber when my cars are next up for rotors and brake pads.

wtd44

If you're like me, you just aren't accustomed to "being happy" about the results of replacing factory brakes! I understand that the NAPA goodies are made by Raybestos to NAPA standards. They are close to, but not identical to the similar Raybestos products.

bpeebles

If you look closely, those "NAPA" rotors are stamped with the name "bendix" .
The "NAPA ceramix" pads are repackaged Raybestos "QS"

Dont take these facts the wrong way.... NAPA has parternerd with the "best in the buisness" and those are the very same components that I am running on the front of my truck too.

You should have noticed by now that the ceramic-based pads will leave MUCH less black dust on the front wheels too 8-)

dudette3

thanks for the reply. would alignment affect the wear of the brakepads? i don't think my vehicle needs an alignment.. but it is tough to tell on these curving michigan roads.

i called my dealer and asked him about this. he said that it could be alignment, etc. if it is a caliper that isn't fully retracting, should my extend warranty honda care cover the cost of the fix? i would think maybe i would pay for the brake pad replacement, and honda would pay for the mechanical defect -?

also, are there two pistons in each caliper- one on each side inboard/outboard? trying ot understand how the system works..

... will appreciate more info, as i would like to understand this better so i am well prepared before walking into the dealer..

alcan

Scroll through these screens:

http://auto.howstuffworks.com/disc-brake.htm

wtd44

I don't know much about the source on the USA made rotors, but the NAPA people (techies at "HQ") claim that the Ceramix pads are a special formula requested by NAPA engineers, based on the manufacturer's ingredients for a similar product. Hey, Bendix and Raybestos are the top dogs, so I won't get exercised over their participation in the solution at all!

marsha7

anything made by Bendix Corp will be quality, along with Raybestos...I am a fan of Bendix products...

cheesdawg

I just changed the disc brake pads on my 1993 Honda Accord EX . I didnt touch anything else. The rotors were fine. The car has an ABS system ( anti -lock brakes). When I start the car the ABS light is not on but when you push on the brake pedal after the car is moving the ABS trouble light will come on.I have owned the car two years and it has never come on. Any suggestions?

bpeebles

I seem to recall that some ABS systems need to be "reset" after the calipers are pushed in to replace the pads.

QUESTION: Are you suggesting that the light does NOT come on if you push the brake pedal while stopped? (the answer to this is KEY to isolating your problem)

pulseear

So this morning i was driving down a steep hill and i pressed my brakes and my car goes POW and the brakes dont work. i put on myu Ebrake and then restarted my car. my brake light was on and my car made a grinding sound when i was driving and made an even worse grinding sound when i was braking. i assume my brakes are, in some fashion, broken! Do anyonehave an idea of whats wrong? is it the brake pads, or the line or what? and how much would it cost/is it easy enough to fix myself? thanks!

alcan

No point in speculating as to what it might be. There's a mechanical problem which will require removal of all the wheels and inspection of the brake system to determine what's wrong.

wtd44

I am wondering if there is a meaningful safety issue in this case. Maybe this car should not be driven until inspected and remade roadworthy. Just a thought.

Mr_Shiftright

I think THAT goes without saying!

mcdawgg

I can occassionally hear a high-pitched squeal with the brakes released. If I just barely touch the brake pedal, it stops. I never hear the squeal while braking. Is this the wear indicators or something else??

bpeebles

It is not unusual for disk brakes to drag a little when not in use. There is no "spring" to retract the pads, instead the pads just glide over the rotor surface.

mcdawgg

So is the squeal the wear indicator? Why would it not squeal when the brakes are applied?

wtd44

Maybe you'd better get under there and take a look for a foreign object or some metallic object that lightly touches the disk.

alcan

That's typical of a wear indicator which has just started to contact the rotor. Causes the indicator to vibrate, resulting in the squeal. As the pad wears further down, the squeal won't stop with the pedal depressed. Definitely time to check the pads.

mcdawgg

Thanks - just the answer I needed. Last question - should I have the rotors turned or not?

wtd44

If the pads are worn enough to need changing, then consider the condition of the disks. If they need to be turned, I would suggest replacing them instead.

marsha7

Whether the rotors should be turned is a different question now than, say, 10-15 years ago...

In the "old days" rotors were made with a great deal of excess metal, which allowed them to be turned on a disc lathe at least twice in their useful lives...and, anyone who did not turn rotors, if for nothing else to eliminate the glaze and check for warpage, was making a mistake...

Now, carmakers have learned that the excess metal contributes to the weight of the car, and, trying to squeeze every last ounce from the weight of the car, they have installed rotors that can barely be turned once...however, just to remove the glaze and check for warpage, they SHOULD be turned...this gives us a dilemma...

The dilemma is solved, on many cars, by the redesign of the rotor...in the old days, the rotor and hub were one piece, and, even 20 tears ago, a new rotor could cost $50-75 in 1980s money...

Now, the rotors are made the same way rear drums used to be...the hub is attached to the car, and the rotor just slides on and off, held on by the wheel and lug nuts squeezing the rotor to the hub...the new rotors only cost $20-25, much less than 20 years ago...

Which leads us to this...if there is not enough metal left after turning, just consider buying 2 new rotors, which should not cost but $40-50...new rotors, new pads, make sure calipers are not frozen, and, voila'...new brakes and great stopping power...just add some of Emeril's "essence", and drive away safely... :shades:

wtd44

You said a lot there, and said it well. I find your "current prices" to be overly optimistic, having just replaced the front rotors and pads on a 2004 Jeep GC. Admittedly, I took the high road and put in higher quality components from NAPA, passing up the more bargain priced goods.
There are now knowledgeable people in the field suggesting that rotors should be replaced rather than turned. You either replace the pads and do nothing more, or you replace the pads and the rotors. You replace the rotors when they are either worn beyond specifications, or are too grooved (etc.) for continued use as is. My multiple experiences with recent manufacture vehicles support this advice. I hope to never get another one turned again.

amberson

I have a1999 Chevy Blazer, New pads and rotors on the front..When stopping from any speed, the last 3-5 feet the brake pedal shutters like stopping on ice....after disconecting either left or right brake sensor, the abs light comes on, but the brakes work OK">link title

alcan

Common problem with GM trucks. Rust builds up under the wheel speed sensors and pushes them away from their mounts, increasing the air gap between the sensors and the reluctor rings. Causes the system to go into self-test as the truck slows. Remove the sensors (can sometimes be tough to get out), clean off any corrosion on the underside and the mounts, apply a thin coat of dilectric silicone grease to both surfaces, and re-install.

marsha7

I think I replaced a rotor on my 2000 Sable in 2002, and I believe it did not surpass $30...however, not only could I be wrong, but I cannot check since I discarded my records when I traded the car...

But I am quite sure it was not $50-75, which is what an rotor and hub cost years ago...am I wrong again???

bpeebles

It all depends on quality of the brake rotor. The el-cheepo ones may be less than $30.... but not a good choice if one expects to keep the vehicle for more than a couple additional years.

When I am looking for ANY replacement parts for my cars, I always call at least 3 different places (plus dealership) to get a rounded view of the price-range I am looking at.

Also, for some parts, such as brake and ignition components, it is a good idea to ask if they offer different "grades". Most parts-suppliers have at least 3 different "grades" of ignition wires available....but if you do not ask, they may not tell you that. As as example, for my truck, I was offered 4 different "grades" of brake-rotors. Prices ranged from $40 -- up to over $90. From experience, I know that the el-cheepo ones will rust terribly after about 2 winters.

wtd44

I see those lower priced rotors on the market here, as well as more expensive ones. I have successfully used el cheapos to replace scored/grooved disks with success. Now, when the situation is warped disks, the solution is very likely to be short lived if you use bargain disks. The heavy duty expensive rotors are a better bet. I'm thinking of my own experiences when I suggest this analysis.

ateixeira

First time brake job on a Miata, and I'm having trouble retracting the rear piston. It has one of those hex nut adjusters, but it only goes so far, then it seems to jam.

I know with the fronts you can use C-clamps, but the rears are supposed to retract with that hex nut. The hex nut take a couple of turns but the piston doesn't seem to move at all. Could it be jammed?

Any ideas? Will I need a new caliper? Can I rebuild this one?

I tried some brake cleaner but still no luck.

Can I go ahead and try using a C-clamp to retract it, or will that only do more harm than good?

-juice

gray5

Just replaced the front pads and rotors on my 2002 grand caravan. The brake pedal is now pulsating and the steering wheel shakes when I apply the brakes. I have double checked my installation and all looks fine. Is it possible to get warped rotors that are brand new right out of the box? I don't have a dial indicator so I can't check them directly. Any other ideas on what might be causing this problem?

hondafriek

DO NOT USE A CLAMP TO RETRACT THE PISTON! caps for emphasis. The piston should screw all the way in, either it at the limit of it's travel or you have serious rust around the pistonpreventing it from going all the way in. Have you tried installing the new pads with the caliper where you have the piston retracted to?

I have no experience with the Mazda rear caliper but I would imagine it to be similar to the Honda which I do have experience with. IIRC the Honda did not retract completely into the bore.

If you have to replace the caliper replace both you can get them exchage for cheap. That type of caliper is not worth the trouble to rebuild.

Cheers Pat.

wtd44

Your symptoms are the same symptoms my daughter had with her Jeep Grand Cherokee. I purchased NAPA high grade rotors and NAPA Ceramix pads. All appears that the problem is now solved. She has maybe 1000 miles on the new parts. I am thinking that your new rotors are already warped!

gray5

I'm a little unclear on your response. Are you saying that the Cherokee had these symptoms before your brake job, or that they occurred after the brake job and took about 1,000 miles to be resolved?
Thanks for the response.

greg564

I have bled the brakes in my Geo Prism twice and the brake light remains on. It was not on prior to bleeding them. Can someone offer some suggestions?

ateixeira

Pat - right on, I figured it out but you are exactly right.

The fronts retract by clamping the pistons, but the rears retract with a hex nut. This one was kind of jammed, so I had to help it along with some pliers, turning the piston clockwise. It worked.

The other side was easy - the hex nut retracted it perfectly.

Both the rear brakes and the parking brake were working fine. Whew.

Then I did the fronts too. Finito!

Thanks for the tip.

-juice

soldierboy

I have a '01 lincoln ls and i started to change the brake pads when i encountered this lack of knowledge. inside the caliper, there are two cylinders that apply pressure to the actual pads. they are pushed out, and since the last brake pads were worn, the new thicker ones won't fit. does anyone know how to release the pressure on these things so i can get my new pads on? :confuse:

alcan

All rear calipers with integral parking brake have the piston mounted on a jackscrew which is operated by the parking brake cable. To retract, rotate the piston clockwise to thread it back down the jackscrew. Make sure the slots or notches in the piston line up with the pin(s) in the pads. A rear brake service kit similar to this is usually available for rent at auto part stores:
http://tools.batauto.com/index.php?crn=82&rn=926&action=show_detail
or this universal one might work:
http://tools.batauto.com/index.php?crn=82&rn=503&action=show_detail

alcan

If you have a brake pulsation now, there's runout in one or both of the front rotors. Did you clean all traces of corrosion and rust scabs off the mounting flanges of the hubs before installing the new rotors, and use a torque wrench to tighten the wheel nuts? If either answer is no, there's probably the cause.

alcan

Treat it the same as any single piston caliper. With the old inboard pad still installed, use a C clamp to force the pistons back down their bores. After they're seated, the rest is simple. Use dilectric silicone grease on the pin bushings, tighten the wheel nuts to 100 ft/lb with a torque wrench.

alcan

Make sure the float switch in the master cylinder reservoir isn't sticking.

joek3

I have a 1997 Honda Accord in Canada, and they salt the roads here in winter.

I was driving the other day and found no brake pressure. Turns out the lines are corroded right through. The mechanic says in order to swap out the brake lines he needs to drop the fuel tank etc, and change the fuel line cause it runs along side the brake lines. All in all he said it could be up to a couple thousand dollars!!$$$!!!! counting the labor costs.

It's not possible to just change the part of the line that exploded because the whole length under the car is rusty.

Also he wasn't sure if the fuel sending unit was attached to the fuel line, and it may need replacement too.

Any suggestions please?

Mr_Shiftright

Hey, brakes are your LIFE.

However, having said that, I can't imagine why it would cost "thousands". I can't imagine more than one day's labor here.

You need to get some other quotes, but yes, I'd replace all the lines. it's not a good idea to try and patch up a brake line at mid-point. They are probably all bad anyway or on their way.

bpeebles

Get the work done or sell the car to a scrapyard... those are the options.
When the brakelines get as bad as you are suggesting, it is high time to retire the car from the road. That is ONLY THE BEGINNING of your problems.

Winter roadsalt (chloride) will destroy ANY metal given enouh time. If your driving habits are to follow too closely to the car in front, your radiator will desinagrate from the saltspray off the tires. Brake, fuel, exhause and other metal pipes will turn into swiss cheese.

30 years of driving in Vermont has taught me a few "tricks" to slow down the corrosion. The best thing to do is the use copious amounts of water to rinse off the UNDERSIDE of the car every chance you get. If it starts raining... go for a drive.

wtd44

The Jeep Grand C developed the symptoms which around the 20k-21k mileage range became intolerable. The pedal pulsed and the steering wheel shuddered markedly when braking at highway speeds. The problem was cured by replacing the rotors and pads. The fix seems to be a good one, and hopefully the higher quality of the replacement parts will assure the fix to be "permanent." I had a friend at a machine shop evaluate the old, factory original equipment rotors. He found them to have been grooved and abraded by the 20k+ miles of use to the point of not being salvageable. That is, they were worn past the point at which they might have been turnable for continued use. Actually, I never considered reusing them due to the known history of JGC front brake rotors being poor for longevity.

I suspect you now have the diagnosis you need for going forward, thanks to alcan weighing in. Good luck!

ateixeira

Thanks for the tip and the links.

It was kind of tough to rotate that piston with locking wrench but I managed. If I do it again I'll buy a kit like that one and probably rebuild the brake calipers while I'm at it.

Brakes are totally silent now and the pedal feel is firm. Praking brake holds it even on a steep incline.

-juice

alcan

You're welcome. Glad to hear you got it sorted out.