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Stop here! Let's talk about brakes

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  • shiposhipo Member Posts: 9,148
    Per a number of automoble manufacturers (BMW among them), if your brake fluid is more than two years old, it's bad. Period, full stop, the end.
  • jipsterjipster Member Posts: 6,296
    I went ahead and had the brake fluid flushed as it hasn't been changed in the 6 years I've owned the car. The tech said it was dirty, after inspecting it a little while ago. I'm getting new pads put on, so I guess it's a good idea. Still, a litmus test for brake fluid? :confuse:
    2021 Honda Passport EX-L, 2020 Honda Accord EX-L, 2011 Hyundai Veracruz, 2010 Mercury Milan Premiere.
  • 99accent99accent Member Posts: 237
    If this is true about BM ,then 98 % of all the cars on the road have the original fluid in the master cylinder for over 5 years . :surprise:
  • 99accent99accent Member Posts: 237
    does oil cleaning qualities that may clog engine,because i was contemplating to use pennzoil for there claims on cleaning 15% of the motor grit and slug on one oil change, however, i know too much cleaning an especially older cars can cause clogs in the oil passages in the engine, i was also considering on using 5x30 CASTROL GTX, I have a V6 Nissan so does any one know about this subject? :confuse:
  • shiposhipo Member Posts: 9,148
    Unless the old car has been SERIOUSLY neglected, there is no such a thing as "too much cleaning", regardless of how old the car is.
  • vwgirl1vwgirl1 Member Posts: 1
    Hello fellow members, I'm trying to find out why my brakes lock up when I brake..if I brake slowly they don't lock up but a little more pressure causes this. Also, my ABS light goes on/off..does anyone know or have any idea what I can check or try to do?
  • kiawahkiawah Member Posts: 3,666
    I know nothing about VW's, and you should take the vehicle to the dealer or brake garage to resolve. This is nothing to mess around with, high risk of being in an accident.

    If it was my car however, I think what I'd do is pull the fuse on the ABS system, as a diagnostic approach to figure out whether the problem was in the hydraulic system itself, or it was in the electrical/ABS system. If you take the ABS out of the equation by unplugging, and the problem is still there when braking, then you highly suspect the problem is hydraulic.

    On the other hand, if the problem goes away, then the problem is likely in the ABS system or computer.

    Either way, both of those problems are going to need a professional involved to fix....so just let them do the diagnosis themselves.
  • jipsterjipster Member Posts: 6,296
    I had new brakes put on the Regal the other day. The dirty fluid was changed, so no problem there. In looking at the brake pads and rotors the independent shop put on... they put on a top quality Napa ultra premium pad ($92 on line) but put on Napa's low end rotor ($30 online). The higher quality rotor would have been $60. They are suppose to be "no turn" rotors with higher temp standards and limited lifetime warranty.

    Too late now, but wouldn't have putting on the higher quality rotor made more sense? Or, is a rotor a rotor for the most part, and a $30 Napa rotor better than most?
    2021 Honda Passport EX-L, 2020 Honda Accord EX-L, 2011 Hyundai Veracruz, 2010 Mercury Milan Premiere.
  • obyoneobyone Member Posts: 7,841
    edited September 2010
    $30 Napa rotor better than most?

    That would depend on whether that $30 rotor was made in China or not....

    What was the ultra premium pad made of? Is that $92 for all four?

    The mechanic usually gets 25% off of retail and charges retail for the parts. Course some mark it up above retail but that's hard to catch.
  • shiposhipo Member Posts: 9,148
    It often depends upon the car. For most cars that aren't driven hard, the standard (probably Chinese made) rotors will probably do the job for the life of the pads (and then some), however, some cars have a tendency to cook their brakes more than normal, and the premium Napa rotors are a must in those cases.

    As a for-instance, we've had a number of Chrysler minivans, two of which happened to be 1998 models. Our 1998 DGC Sport never made it to the 30,000 mile mark on a set of standard front rotors (one set lasted only 8,000 miles) without becoming so warped that the resultant vibrations were severe enough to render the van almost undrivable. A set of premium rotors cured that problem and when we sold that van it had over 55,000 miles on the rotors and they were still going strong. The flip side is the 1998 T&C (and our 2003 DGC for that matter), it can easily go 50,000 miles on a set of pads and el-cheapo rotors with no issue. What's the difference? Beats the stuffing out of me; the brakes are identical on both vans.
  • jipsterjipster Member Posts: 6,296
    What was the ultra premium pad made of? Is that $92 for all four?

    They were ceramic pads.

    The $92 was for pads on the front 2 wheels. I didn't know they were sold in sets of 2... so a total of 4 pads So when given an estimate of "Quantity 1" on an estimate, I had to call back to confirm it brake pads for both wheels.

    The $92 was the online price from Napa.The shop charged $123. So that's about a 25% markup from retail. :sick:
    2021 Honda Passport EX-L, 2020 Honda Accord EX-L, 2011 Hyundai Veracruz, 2010 Mercury Milan Premiere.
  • jipsterjipster Member Posts: 6,296
    edited September 2010
    I don't know what rotors were on my Buick Regal when changed out. But, they lasted over 50k miles (original owner changed out at 50k miles I believe)... the front rotors needing to be turned around 2 years ago. I suppose I might have this car anywhere from another year to 4 or 5.. don't really know. Just hope I don't have to buy or turn anymore.

    One of those rotors could have been turned once more, the other were too thin and under specs. So that is why I had them replaced.

    We've gotten close to 78k miles right now on the original pads on our MPV. The dealership has recommended replacing them for the last 3 or 4 oil changes. They don't squeal. But, wife wants them changed.
    2021 Honda Passport EX-L, 2020 Honda Accord EX-L, 2011 Hyundai Veracruz, 2010 Mercury Milan Premiere.
  • kiawahkiawah Member Posts: 3,666
    I've only had one vehicle, where the standard el-cheapo rotors weren't good enough. I had a '97 Suburban, and I tried numerous rotors and they would all initially be okay, but within a thousand miles or so start to get warped from the heat. Talked to one of the autoparts guys, and he indicated that for that vehicle, the Bendix rotor (about twice as expensive) was required. He had the regulars which I guess cross reference to other applications as well, but would have to special order the Bendix.

    Don't know if any of this is true, but he indicated that Bendix puts their rotors thru an extra hardening/tempering step, which keeps them from getting hot spots and/or heat warping. I bought his storyline, and the rotors, and never had another problem.

    That's the only vehicle I owned however, where the standard replacement rotors weren't good enough. I only do sporadic trailering, but I guess that's enough extra heat to do in the stardard's.
  • wtd44wtd44 Member Posts: 1,208
    I have come to understand that we often use the term "warped" concerning brake rotors when in some cases, perhaps most, the problem is not a physical warp but rather a deposition of brake pad material onto the rotors that make the rotors sticky to the brake pads. We all know what the nature of the complaint is when all this is referred to as "warping." That said, I will tell you that I have had tremendous success combining NAPA pads with their next to the top rotors. It solved the short life problem that was chronic to pre-2005 Jeep Grand Cherokee original brakes. I also give a lot of credence to the idea that if rotors NEED turning, just replace them. Otherwise, reuse them after some random orbital scuffing/sanding to clear the tracking a bit. If you need new pads due to wear, and you have no other complaint, then just change the pads and nothing more. If this scares you, knock yourself out following any ritual you want! ;) :P
  • bpeeblesbpeebles Member Posts: 4,085
    Your experience with rotors is about normal It is always best to use "Bendix", "Raybestos", "ATE", "Zimmermann" or some other well-known brand-name rotors.

    The el-cheepo ones are made in China or Mexico out of recycled tin-cans or bycycles. Even if they do not warp, they will get covered wirh rust within 3 winters. Even some of the rotors supplied by Dodge, Chevy or Ford have been 'farmed out' to China. (and are junk)

    I learned my lesson about the el-cheepo rotors and now prefer "ATE" or "Zimmermann" (Both made in Germany out of the best steel available)
  • jipsterjipster Member Posts: 6,296
    edited October 2010
    I look at the color, it starts out clear, and becomes darker as it picks up contaminants.

    I had our MPV's brake fluid flushed as well. The tech said it was "brown". I tried to check myself, but the brake fluid reseviour bends at a 90 degree angle and goes under the dash. :sick:
    2021 Honda Passport EX-L, 2020 Honda Accord EX-L, 2011 Hyundai Veracruz, 2010 Mercury Milan Premiere.
  • shiposhipo Member Posts: 9,148
    The thing is, looking at brake fluid in the reservior isn't going to tell you much. Why? The conaminate (water) weighs more than the brake fluid, so it finds the lowest point in the system; exactly where you don't want it. The fluid in the reservior is typically the best fluid in the entire system.
  • jz92hadexjz92hadex Member Posts: 1
    how does a brake master cylinder actually work? 92 honda accord
  • shiposhipo Member Posts: 9,148
    edited October 2010
    Kind sorta like a tandem bicycle tire pump, except it pumps two streams of liquid instead of one stream of air.
  • kiawahkiawah Member Posts: 3,666
    edited October 2010
    How about a hypodermic syringe getting a flu shot..

    Mechanical pushing in of the plunger, pushes the liquid medicine out the needle.

    Mechanical pushing on the brake pedal, pushes the hydraulic fluid out.

    Just that where the fluid goes is into the brake lines, which are contained so the fluid doesn't leak out. And there is a spring, to return the brake pedal back up to it's normal height. Also as indicated, it's actually a double plunger, so there are two brake line circuits.
  • drivin_delilahdrivin_delilah Member Posts: 2
    so i just replaced the brake shoes on my rear drum brakes......
    i pumped the pedal to get some pressure back in and it worked just fine....
    as soon as i engage my e brake and release it i lose all pressure in the brake lines.....
    why is this happening???
    help me please
  • kiawahkiawah Member Posts: 3,666
    When you put the new brakes on, and then put the drum on, did you adjust the brake shoes?
  • bolivarbolivar Member Posts: 2,316
    Did you do this work with the emergency brake engaged? If so, any adjustment you did was 'lost' when you released the e-brake.

    You probably just need to adjust the brakes some more - move them closer to the drum. You could do this with multiple application of the brakes while moving in reverse, but it might just be quicker to adjust them manually. There is usually a hole in the back plate where a screwdriver can be used to screw the adjusting wheel, using the screwdriver blade as a lever to rotate the adjusting wheel.
  • drivin_delilahdrivin_delilah Member Posts: 2
    my dad said the same thing about backing up and applying the brakes
    so i applied the brakes in reverse about 12 times
    but once again as soon as i engage and release the e brake all the pressure goes away and i can push the pedal to the floor

    is it possible that theres air in the lines??
  • kiawahkiawah Member Posts: 3,666
    edited November 2010
    Forgetting about the e-brake for the moment and don't use it for the moment....do your regular brakes work correctly? They should have firm brake pressure, and you should not have to 'pump them up'.

    I'm a little bit suspect that you either didn't get the brakes back together correctly, or your failure to initially manually adjust the brakes either is, or has caused a problem.

    If it were my vehicle, I'd put the vehicle on jack stands, and pull the wheels and drums again, and make sure everything looked right, and I didn't have any hydraulic fluid leaks. Then put the drums back on, and thru the slot in the back plate initially adjust the star wheel so the brake pads just very slightly touch the drum. Once you have them adjusted, your regular brake pressure should be firm shen brake depressed. If not, your brakes need bled. I would use that oppty to flush the brakes, if it's been more than 3 years.
  • maxfischermaxfischer Member Posts: 9
    I know little about auto maintenance and have never had a car that I needed to replace the brake pads. I have a 2005 Acura MDX with 50K miles on it. The manual says the brakes should produce a fairly constant squealing noise when the brake pads are ready to be replaced - the noise is produced by a small piece of metal that will be exposed when the pads are low which then rubs against the rotors. I have not heard that squealing yet and various shops have indicated that I have about 2-3mm left on my pads. The last repair shop I went to (to get a flat tire fixed) told me I should replace my rotors. I don't know why the rotors would need to be replaced if I haven't let my pads run down yet?

    Can someone clear this up for me - how do I know when I need new pads and how would I know if I need new rotors? Would I ever need to have the rotors replaced if I replace my brake pads on time??

    Thanks...
  • kiawahkiawah Member Posts: 3,666
    edited November 2010
    If your pad has the little metal wear indicator nubs on them, then I replace them as soon as I hear a squeak. I don't wait until the squeaking is fairly constant. Not all brake pads have those indicators, so I'm taking your word for it that the original pads for your MDX have them (reasonable assumption that they do, however).

    If you didn't replace your pads when squealing, and you continued to drive and wore the pads down to nothing, then you would have metal rubbing against the metal rotors, and you would ruin the rotor. Then you'd need to replace the rotor.

    You might also need to replace the rotor, if you have been a very hard aggressive driver, causing the rotors to get warped from the heat, or hot spots from the heat. In that case, they symptoms you would have is a pulsating brake pedal, felt most typically at low speed.

    Many vehicles will drive their whole lifetime on original rotors, so this isn't necessarily a replace at 30K miles deal.
  • maxfischermaxfischer Member Posts: 9
    Great, thanks for the quick response and explanation.
  • isellhondasisellhondas Member Posts: 20,342
    Some shops insist on resurfacing rotors with every brake job they do.

    I NEVER have my rotors turned unless I can feel a shimmy when I apply the brakes. Turning them just makes them thinner and les able to deal with heat.

    Also, there is a major tire store in our area that won't do a brake job unless thye replace the calipers. I have never once replaced or overhauled a caliper on any car I have ever owned. The Honda store where I worked never touched calipers.

    Once in awhile they would replace a leaking rear wheel cylinder on a high mileage Honda. Heck, we used to just overhaul them without any problems.
  • jipsterjipster Member Posts: 6,296
    Some shops insist on resurfacing rotors with every brake job they do.

    True. I yielded to the pressure of the dealership service manager during a recent brake job on the MPV. All rotors looked to be in real good shape, no scoring. I told him I just wanted to replace the pads. He said he could almost guarantee the pads would squeak, and then I would have to bring it back in and be charged more for pulling everything back off.

    I gave him the," I don't want to spend that much", as it was about $120 an axle to turn the rotors. He agreed to take about $40 off per axle, so I went and had it done. About $40 per rotor turned seems to be the gong rate.

    The owner of an independent shop, as I was putting brakes on my Regal, would not put on new pads unless I agreed to have the rotors turned or replaced.

    There is that little bit of rotor that doesn't get worn away at the very outside edge during normal brake wear. That is about the only reason why I would think they would require rotor turning. Maybe it's too hard for them to line up the pad. :confuse:
    2021 Honda Passport EX-L, 2020 Honda Accord EX-L, 2011 Hyundai Veracruz, 2010 Mercury Milan Premiere.
  • imidazol97imidazol97 Member Posts: 27,675
    How much were good quality rotors to replace the ones they wanted to turn.

    Turning rotors is a high profit industry.

    2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,

  • jipsterjipster Member Posts: 6,296
    How much were good quality rotors to replace the ones they wanted to turn.

    From what I recall the rotors were about twice as much as turning them.

    I had high quality pads put on both my cars. Napa ceramic on the Regal and the OEM pads on the Mazda.

    A friend said he thought they had machines now that turned the rotor while it was still on the car. Don't know if that's true, but it doesn't seem it would take that long to turn a rotor. The guy at the dealership made it sound like there was a lot of time and effort involved in it. I have no idea. :confuse:
    2021 Honda Passport EX-L, 2020 Honda Accord EX-L, 2011 Hyundai Veracruz, 2010 Mercury Milan Premiere.
  • obyoneobyone Member Posts: 7,841
    A friend said he thought they had machines now that turned the rotor while it was still on the car.

    That was designed specifically for FWD vehicles. I remember Snap On wanted $2K for their model. Was suppose to save labor as removing the rotors from a FWD was a little difficult
  • isellhondasisellhondas Member Posts: 20,342
    Oh, there is a HUGE profit in turning rotors!

    The "on car" machines are a snap to hook up. The guy working on the car hooks up the machine and walks away. While he is waiting for the machine to finish, he can go work on another car.

    Shops charge 200.00 or more to turn two rotors!

    But, it's not the money that bothers me as much as the fact it just isn't needed most of the time. It takes a layer of metal off which only creates more heat.
  • shiposhipo Member Posts: 9,148
    Creates more heat?

    Hmmm, silly me, I always thought the reduction of metal simply reduced the thermal mass of the rotor, thus causing it to get hotter per calorie of heat added to it. Shows what I know. :P
  • isellhondasisellhondas Member Posts: 20,342
    I always thought that the thinner the rotor the greater the effect of heat which would lead to fading and warpage of the rotors.

    At least that's what I meant.
  • shiposhipo Member Posts: 9,148
    Yup, the lower the thermal mass, the faster the rotor heats up when any given amount of heat is injected into it. The faster the rotor heats up, the sooner you get into brake fade territory (not to mention "hot spotting" and/or warping the rotor).
  • isellhondasisellhondas Member Posts: 20,342
    And the very reason I don't want them resurfaced unless absoulty necessary.

    The shops will tell you that they can't guarantee their work and some will flatly refuse to not machine them.
  • shiposhipo Member Posts: 9,148
    And also why I never machine the rotors on my cars, I always replace them when new pads are required.
  • isellhondasisellhondas Member Posts: 20,342
    So, why would you replace a perfectly good, in spec set of rotors?

    Kinda seems like overkill to me.

    Do you replace your calipers too?
  • shiposhipo Member Posts: 9,148
    "Perfectly good" is a matter of opinion. When I pull the brakes off one of our cars, the swept area of the rotor always exhibits considerable metal loss, too much for my tastes. While said rotors may still be within spec, the loss of thermal mass is due to normal wear is typically much greater than the metal loss from "turning" or "facing" used rotors. Measure them, you might be surprised.

    As for replacing calipers, no, typically I don't do that. The lone exceptions have been when there was damage to the piston either due to corrosion (from the previous owner not flushing the brake fluid often enough) or (in one case only) damage due to some ham-handed previous owner/maintainer.
  • isellhondasisellhondas Member Posts: 20,342
    Ah...O.K...whatever floats your boat I suppose.

    As far as I'm concerned, it the rotors are within specs thay are good to go.

    But then, I don't drive our cars hard.

    Some European cars such as BMW's will wear out a set of rotors every time they need pads.
  • shiposhipo Member Posts: 9,148
    And that's what I like to drive. That said, pretty much every car I've owned or maintained over the last twenty or thirty years has not been kind to its rotors, my BMWs included.
  • isellhondasisellhondas Member Posts: 20,342
    OK, that explains things. Nothing can outstop a BMW but they do eat rotors.
  • Mr_ShiftrightMr_Shiftright Member Posts: 64,481
    You know, if that's the price I have to pay to stop in 95 feet instead of 100 when I'm 98 feet behind a flatbed truck, I'll pay it.
  • srs_49srs_49 Member Posts: 1,394
    I worry more about the semi behind me needing 200 ft to stop :P .
  • Mr_ShiftrightMr_Shiftright Member Posts: 64,481
    Alas, there are some things in our control, and some out of them. :(
  • isellhondasisellhondas Member Posts: 20,342
    I understand and I agree but if the old rotors were well within spec I don't see how a replacement rotor could stop you any faster.
  • shiposhipo Member Posts: 9,148
    Simple physics; the thicker the rotor the greater the thermal mass, the greater the thermal mass the better the stopping power. Why? Because the rotor stays cooler during a high energy stop. While a worn rotor may still be "in spec", that in no way means that it's able to sustain stopping power as great as it could when it was thicker.
  • jipsterjipster Member Posts: 6,296
    the thicker the rotor the greater the thermal mass, the greater the thermal mass the better the stopping power. Why? Because the rotor stays cooler during a high energy stop

    We're talking very little thermal mass here from a machined rotor to a non-machined. Hot rodders spin their rubber tires to generate heat for better road contact, so I don't see how a slightly cooler /slightly heavier rotor will stop a car quicker. It would be like spitting in the ocean and trying to measure the rise in sea level.
    2021 Honda Passport EX-L, 2020 Honda Accord EX-L, 2011 Hyundai Veracruz, 2010 Mercury Milan Premiere.
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