Stop here! Let's talk about brakes

alcan

It's not likely that his hydraulic system needs parts replacement to correct the rear lockup problem. No doubt it's due for a major overhaul, but not within the "$20" budget he has for it. Good suggestion for situations which do require the hydraulic system to be opened up, though.

swschrad

one thing about messing with real nasty fluids, as you stir up the mess on the way to flushing it out, you do create other chances to mung something else up.

fleetwoodsimca

...of brake cleaner aerosol spray! (:o]
Did you not mention that you intend to replace that car in March? Here in the Rocky Mountain West, if not everywhere in the country, car dealers get more and more depressed over low volume through January, and they get downright desperate in February for some sales. Come March, they customers start the spring rush for new vehicles. No, I won't say it! You know what I'm thinking.

swschrad

because the chlorinated stuff will melt your flashlight and plastic-lens glasses and may attack hoses. you can spray the other stuff until all the ants crawling up your back are drunk and it won't rot anything important, except maybe the ants' livers.

cranium

tomorrow. I'll try adjusting them, and i'll shoot them with some cleaner. I am NOT flushing the system on this car. Too much time, and effort. I'm NOT putting any more money in this car than 20 bucks. If needed, I'll replace the hardware.
\
Fleet.. I know , I know... but I need to pay off the Jetta first.. 5 months, and then I'll start shopping. I think it would be hard to find a deal on an odyssey, or sienna, since they are in such high demand anyway. would you like to give me your card?

Thanks for the help guys... I got alittle lost on my hydraulic 101 class, do you have after school hours? But I do understand the sentance that states the problem is not with the pro valve..

I'll let you know how it goes. Hopefully I'll get a chance to look at them this weekend..

fleetwoodsimca

...that I am not in any way in the automobile business, except as a customer too often! Let us all know what happens next.

bburton1

Don't know if this is your problem-but used to live in Mpls and the woman I lived with said her Honda wouldn't "go". It was the middle of the winter-she had a rear drum brake frozen-she used the parking brakes when she parked-they were wet from the slushy snow and then they froze tight-right rear it was. Just took off the wheel-aimed a heat lamp at the brake drum for a couple of hours-unstuck she came and then followed that with a lecture on why one should never never ever use the parking brake in FP's (frigid places) and end of problemo-hope this is ur problem and those of us who live in FP's-don't ever use the parking brake in winter unless you want to have a frozen drum-if u do-do the heat lamp bit and it will be fixed in a couple of hours.

Hope this is the problem and not something more serious.

cranium

Monroe. I had them take a look at it, and they told me the problem was the rear drum needed to be replaced.. said that it is over sized, and the shoes would push out against the drum, and when they touched, the whole shoe would grab, and lock it up. They had also mentioned that the rear tires needed to be replaced too. I know the tires should be replaced, but like i said, I'm getting rid of this car soon, so those will just have to do.

I think the explaination they gave me about the drum being over worn, is total BS. Looking over my reciepts (i'm home), these drums are exactly 2 years old, (almost to the day), and only have 17,000 miles on them. i think they are trying to take me for a ride, besides the fact taht they want $77/drum....

Burton, thanks for the advice... I don;t use the E-brake on this car. it's too old, and I've had problems with the E-brake, locking up on my previous older cars.

What do you guys think. is this just BS?

I'll check back on monday, when i'm bored at work

bolivar

I think you said you know how to pull the drum and look at the brakes...

If so, go to a parts house and buy a new drum. It should be much less than $77.

And - did you actually put NEW drums on the car 2 years ago, or did a shop 'turn' the original drums?

cranium

car at the time, but he was charged for a new drum.

fleetwoodsimca

This whole episode really strikes me as possibly being some unethical behavior on the part of the people selling you the new drums. It just isn't adding up properly. Did you go elsewhere for another opinion? Even one of the franchise brake places might give you a different perspective.

cranium

Thanks Fleetwood!... Funny thing is, I haven't had a problem since they looked at it. Then again, the roads have been dry. Maybe they cleaned it up to look at it, and that solved the problem, although I doubt it would be that easy. If it happens again, I will take it for a second opinion. Thanks again!

gotribe

I posted this problem on the Honda board but didnt really resolve it. My '03 Accord EX V6 has exhibited a problem when the ABS in engaged on slippery surfaces. If both sides of the car are on the same traction surface (eg. snow or ice) the car stops straight. However, if say the left tires are on snow, and right tires on slush, it veers alarmingly left or right. My understanding is that ABS apportions brake force to eliminate just this kind of problem. The dealer of course cant duplicate the problem, but I've experienced it several times and think its dangerous. Any thouhts on this? Thanks

moonshadow

You are right the ABS should (in any that i have driven,no accords ) keep the car straight in the situation you described. Providing that the abs is activating.

You should feel the pulsating action in the pedal and or hear it clicking and thumping away.

As well you should be able to steer the car as the abs is pumping away and the car should respond to the change in steering without fishtailing.

Of coarse, ABS cannot defy the laws of gravity and angular momentum. If you come up full bore to a patch of slop at 50 mph and slap om the brakes, you may be out of luck.

 In this situation you will need a "skid control system" that compensates for steering wheel angle(direction you want to go), lateral acceleration(car moving sideways) and yaw rate(rotation of car as viewed from above). Nope, no stupidity sensor. Just your brain.

Sounds like you have to determine the exact set of circumstances that causes this situation and then demonstrate it to the dealer and then hope you dont get the "they all do that. "

fleetwoodsimca

I have a friend who recently bought a 1999 Subaru Forester. He notes that often, the right front brake (he thinks) does the ABS buzz when he is slowing to almost a stop. There seems to be no rhyme or reason to the activation. He feels it in the brake pedal, as well. It does this say, one out of three times he slows to a stop.

swschrad

that's what hits me right off. if the ABS is kicking in, it will of course pulse all brakes. could be foreign material on the pads if it's sticking brakes.

alcan

"if the ABS is kicking in, it will of course pulse all brakes"

No it won't, it will pulse only the brake(s) for the channel whose wheel speed sensor frequency is decreasing at a rate which indicates impending lockup, while maintaining full pressure at unaffected wheels. Some systems control each front wheel separately and both rears as a pair (3 channel), better systems control each wheel independently (4 channel). Some trucks (Kelsey Hayes RWAL and RABS) control rears only as a pair, no front control, to compensate for variations in the amount and placement of payload. Can't prevent front wheel lockup, maintain steerability, or compensate for split coefficient surfaces like 4 wheel systems can.

Right about one thing though; I'd start by putting a scan tool on it and look for a wss signal dropout as it slows.

fleetwoodsimca

I'll pass this along to the Subaru owner. He'll be grateful.

americanflag

I was wondering what the most important things are to consider in brake maintenance?

moonshadow

 My top five in no particular order

1. Keep rotor slide pins lubricated.

2. Keep caliper sliding contact surfaces free from rust build up.

3. Change fluid at least every 2 years.

4. Go easy on the pedal and avoid hard stops (unless you have to) .

5. Use emerg brake at least once a month. probably more

merrill3

I am considering buying a 2003 Forester and am trying to decide between the X and XS. One major difference between them is that the X has 11.4 inch disc brakes in the front and 9 inch drum brakes in the rear and the XS has all 10.3 inch disc brakes. Do you think that will make a big difference in braking? They both have 4 channel ABS. The XS also has Electronic Brake-force Distribution, does that do much? We get a lot of rain and some ice/light snow here.
Thanks for your advice!

mtnbiker3

Our 1997 Cavalier is getting close to needing new brake pads, both on the front discs and the rear drums. My father-in-law advises to have the rotors turned. The reason being there will be a glaze over them that needs to be removed by turning, making them like new again.

I just had new tires put on yesterday, and was able to check out the brakes while they had the wheels off. The rotors seem fine. The pads aren't so worn that they have damaged them, and they seem to be smooth, without grooves, and overall in good shape. I'm no mechanic, but my logic tells me that turning the rotors, if they aren't showing obvious or noticeable damage, may do more harm than good. I know they won't be like new, as they will be a hair thinner and a little less able to handle heat. I would think turning them would also make them more susceptible to warpage.

So what say you, brake experts of Edmunds, turn the rotors, or be just as safe and a little wealthier by just replacing the brake shoes?

Thanks,
Randy

fleetwoodsimca

I think the 4 wheel disk brake set up is a deluxe feature, but not necessary. I would not turn away the vehicle with drum brakes in back, thinking they are inferior.
As for preparing disks for new pads, if they are in excellent condition as you report, my finding has been that some crocus paper (or your choice of abrasive grade) can be used to break the glaze on the surface and to interrupt any "directional" spiralling that might distress your new pads. it's hard work sanding the metal surfaces a bit, but worth the effort. You want to end up with random patterned scratching on the disks.

gsleve

Rotors usually do not have to be turned unless there is a considerable gouge in the rotor even then the decision is questionable or maybe the rotors have a slight warp when applying the brakes that being the case if one decides to true them this could exacerbate the problem due to the fact that maybe the integrity of the metal has already bee compromised therefore turning the rotors may not correct the issue.

according2me

Has anyone else seen this commercial? You add a grinding pad to your brake pads, raise frontend of fwd car, depress brake and accelerator and grind/smoke your rotors smooth. LOL!!!

Sounds interesting, but I'll let someone else use and report on this first before I self-grind my own in the driveway.

Bad economy is very fertile field for innovative ideas.

wain

you got a refund last year
stocks are 1/2 price
you can hire people real easy
and all your dividends will soon be tax free
and you can pay off the deficit years from now - don't worry

fleetwoodsimca

I ruined a random orbit sander some years ago, laying under an SUV, "roughing" away the possibly directional pattern of wear on the front disks. I've been told repeatedly that one must interrupt the swirls or else bad chatter, or something, will occur after the new pads are installed. Any definitive information out there on this one? Maybe "Brake Tru" is not too far off the mark.

alcan

The swirls are what you want. Machining cuts a diectional finish (like a very fine thread) into the rotors. When pads are clamped on during braking, they ride up the rotor on one side, down on the other, flexing the caliper supports. When they've moved as far as they can, they snap back to their original position and repeat. This vibration of the pads is the most common cause of brake squeal with refinished rotors. After machining, I use a die grinder with a 3M pad while the rotor's still turning on the lathe to break the directional finish. Finish with a healthy shot of brake cleaner to remove metallic dust which might otherwise become embedded in the pads, and the rotors aren't likely to contribute to squeal.

fleetwoodsimca

Then, if you do NOT machine the rotors on a particular brake renewal job, you do not need to sand or hand "grind" the surfaces? I speak of that circumstance when the rotors look quite acceptable, and your goal is to simply install a new set of pads.
I had a friend years ago who claimed he changed pads every 30K on his Impala, and never let them go out to fully worn. He routinely changed them before most people would, and he felt that preserved his rotors.

swschrad

like lathe grooves, only coarser. so if there were any embedded sand, pebbles, rivet heads, etc. in the pads that contacted the rotors, you have reduced the amount of disk that the pads can contact... potentially created a spot to collect dust, water, and make larger dead spots in mixed weather... and will eventually wear a groove into the pad that will ride into and out of the disk and cause chatter and noise and abnormal wear.

so the surfaces should be at least flatedged, and probably always have the shine taken off with Tri-M-Ite or the magic blue or green 3M pads, IMHO, based on what I read.

however, keep in mind that's brakes, and I tend to leave brake and steering repairs to folks who have insurance who I can sue if something goes wrong. so I don't have hundreds of referrals who can back me up, like Alcan does.

alcan

This is copied verbatim from the factory manuals I have handy here:

1996 GM G Platform (Aurora & Riviera) manual and '93 Bonneville manual:
Do not refinish rotors when performing routine maintenance, such as replacing worn disc brake pads. Refinish a rotor only under the following circumstances:
1. There is a complaint of brake pulsation.
2. There is scoring greater than 1.5 mm (.060 in.)

1986 Chrysler Front Wheel Drive manual:
Refacing of the braking disc is not required each time the shoe assemblies are replaced. If the braking disc is deeply scored or warped or there is a complaint of brake roughness the rotor should be resurfaced.

Seems like a common theme to me, but it's a moot point in the area where I live. Corrosion of the outer and inner edges of the braking surfaces tends to migrate toward the centre, resulting in pedal pulsation as the pads hit the rust scabs. Usually can't machine it out as the pitting goes deep enough to put the rotor under spec after machining.

fleetwoodsimca

...wasting my time laying under vehics and scrubbing the disks with "sand paper." I hate every minute of doing it, and I will discontinue it, post haste!
Many thanks, swschrad & alcan.

spokane

Your advise, Alcan, as always, is excellent. I am surprised, however that GM considers scoring of 1.5 mm to be acceptable if there is no brake pulsation. That's pretty deep scoring. Does your experience concur with allowing this degree of scoring to continue in service? Thanks.

alcan

To be honest with you I'd have a hard time putting fresh pads on a rotor with .060" scoring, but that's GM's position across all their carlines. Other carmakers refer to "minor scoring", which leaves it open to interpretation by the tech. I don't worry about scoring up to maybe .030" or so as it won't affect braking performance, but by the time I see them they're usually pooched due to heavy scoring, runout, or corrosion.

buffaloes

I have a 2002 Passat. I had rotor warp on all 4 tires at 20000 miles. I took it in at @22000 miles, and dealer replaced rotors under warranty, but told me rear brakes were less than 20% & had to be replaced, while front brakes were ok. At 32000 miles brought car back in for brakes again, since they seemed weak, assuming front brakes had gone. Told by same dealer rear brakes were gone again, fronts still looked new. They replaced rears again, saying the ones they put on were defective, and new ones put on were now upgrades (semi-metallic). They said no actual rear brake problem. They said rears on Passats just wear quicker. Am I being lied to all around? Recommendations? My car is now out of warranty, fyi.

gsleve

it appears that a lot of cars including nissan use organic pads in the rear with non vented rotors less heat generated by the rear brakes, however the fronts usually have vented rotors with semi-metallic pads I've found on my nissan that the pads were 3/4 worn in the rear, yet my front pads were only a 1/4 or 1/3 worn had only 30k on the car.

fedupobowner2

I was driving on the highway, (one that had been recently paved over like new) & noticed that whenever I stepped on brakes at highway speeds, I could see the steering wheel vibrate quite noticeably. I brought my car in for service & was told that Subaru would only replace rotors if it was done once on the car. Well, it turns out the rear brake squeal everyone was complaining about involved not only replacing brake shims but also turning the rotors (at least that is what their service records say). I had to do quite alot of sqawking & complaining to get them to replace the rotors at their cost even though the car is still under original warranty. Clearly this is a safety issue & seeing as how they never even bled the brake lines nor replaced a single part on my brake system after my brakes failed repeatedly while I drove the car last year, I feel subaru has done enough to put my safety at risk. don't let the dealer pull this scam on you! Also another thing concerns me, I didn't see any mileage at all put on my car AFTER they replaced the front rotors & pads by dealer's mechanic. Shouldn't they have done at least a decent test drive? We live in mountainous area & brakes are essential here. Is there somewhere on subaru website where you can request a survey of customer satisfaction?

fleetwoodsimca

I'll bet the Subaru people hold the opinion that the pulsating or vibrating you felt was an annoyance but not dangerous. If its any consolation, I have had more than one car that eventually showed signs of brake disk warpage and/or runout under usage. I was beyond warranty in these cases, and had to decide if it annoyed me enough to spring for the expense! Funny how that complicator changes one's view on the topic-- well, in my case anyway.

swschrad

which wouldn't happen if there was enough size in the rotors to absorb the heat.

oh, that's right, they are trying to cut weight.

next they might leave the tires off.....

windsurfer02

We recently had to replace our rotors too & we don't have 40,000 miles on our car yet. wasn't replacing the brake shim issue for the rear wheels only? I don't see why they would be turning rotors on the front wheels if the back wheels were the ones squealing. Correct me if this wasn't the rear brake squeal issue. I don't see why Subaru couldn't let you turn the rotors of the front wheels & then later not let you turn the rotors of the back wheels. Or is it just one wheel rotors turn per car? lol....isn't their car sales figures good enough this year?I agree with you, they should have at least put some miles on your car to test it, before releasing it to you!

Where did you get your car serviced? I'd rather not go there, but good they finally took care of you properly, it's what they should of done in the first place.

fleetwoodsimca

You have to push and push, often moving to the next echelon of administration, to correct that which should have been done in the first instance! Persevere.

notjuz

My car makes this high pitch noise when I hit 40 but when I press the brake pedal it stops! Anybody know what's the cause before I bring it to a shop? It's a Daewoo Leganza MT with discs. Any help will be appreciated. Thanks.

fleetwoodsimca

Your brakes are squealing? (:o]

steeler19

I had something similar happen with my dodge when I finally wore the pads down to the metal :0

Your pads are probably sticking to the rotor a little and they just happen to make a noise around 40 mph. Try rolling at a slow speed in an empty parking lot, approx. 5 mph, and hitting the brakes quick and hard to try and free them up.

Regardless it sounds like you will need new brake pads, and at this point almost certainly new rotors. Pep Boys usually has reasonable prices, plus some stores allow you to supply your own parts - i.e. less of a mark up.

hmurphy

(I also posted this in the Accord Problems thread, so you can skip this if you already read my messages there.)

I have a new Accord with about 750 miles on it. About a week after I bought it, the brakes started making an awful grinding noise the first few times I used them after the car sat for a bit. It happened in wet weather, dry weather, etc.

I took the car to the dealer, who called Honda. Honda apparently said that it's a problem with the brake noise insulation on some new models (4 and 6 cylinders). According to the dealer, Honda came up with a fix for the 4-cylinder models, but not for the sixes.

As an interim measure, the dealer applied a composite to the brake pad, which hardens to provide temporary noise insulation. I picked the car up yesterday and the temporary solution is working. They claim that there is no safety risk in driving the car until a permanent fix is determined.

Has anyone else had this problem? What was the resolution (if any)?

I called Honda Customer Relations and should get a case manager response within the next week.

I'm just wondering if anyone else has some perspective on this.

mdm4

I am in need of new front pads for my 2000 Deville, I was thinking of buying ceramic, any word of wisdom that can be offered? Thanks

fleetwoodsimca

If you stick with Raybestos or Bendix, or other brand that you trust, there should be no problem-- so long as the pad manufacturer makes model-specific pads for your Cadillac. I'd recommend that you go to appropriate web sites and read a bit about ceramic pads, to see if they meet your needs.
http://bendixbrakes.com
http://raybestos.com

notjuz

Removed the tires and inspected the brake pads. They're still to specs. I can also turn the hub with my hand so the pads are not sticking.

Sprayed the calipers with a brake cleaner. Worked for a while but then the noise came back. It stopped yesterday when it rained. Must be pad mounting vibrations. Will just bring it to the shop.

What's annoying is the noise stops when I step on the brake pedal but starts when I reach 40 or 50.

self_mechanic

I have a 1988 Toyota Corolla SR5 with 150K miles on it. My question is how long will the front and rear brake calipers generallylast before they need replacement. I am thinking about replacing them for preventive maintenance. So far there is no sign of leaking.

Alland

swschrad

replacing a caliper before you have issues can be done, but there are better ways to spend your money, right?

I haven't replaced a caliper yet. of course, I haven't had a set of paper-thin brakes in any of my vehicles yet like come in a lot of sedans.

but keeping things clean and having appropriate maintenance done by folks who recognize what the parts are called may have helped.