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Stop here! Let's talk about brakes

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  • fleetwoodsimcafleetwoodsimca Member Posts: 1,518
    I would not be attracted to changing out calipers for preventive maintenance. It sort of sounds like some of the demands in private aviation. And I'd remind the cognoscenti that changing out calipers with rebuilts already loaded with pads is not much harder than simply changing pads in your current calipers.
  • swschradswschrad Member Posts: 2,171
    you can't pull over, get out, and wait for a tow in a cessna. so you have to fix things before they can break in aviation. if you don't, there won't be any repeat customers for those 500-hour mandatories....
  • self_mechanicself_mechanic Member Posts: 95
    Thanks for the response. I guess I am a bit paranoid. I am always afraid of losing a brake while driving. Since the car is 15 years old ( still runs great though), I am afraid that the rubber washer inside the caliper will fail, leaking out brake fluid and lose pressure.

    Alland
  • swschradswschrad Member Posts: 2,171
    but checking your fluid level regularly (on a lot of cars now, the resivoir is milky-clear, so you don't have to lift the cap and let evil nasty wet old air in) will reassure you that it hasn't happened yet.

    if they fail completely and utterly, you can always use the parking brake to stop, get out, and call a wrecker. hold out the parking brake release with your left hand and push the pedal to stop (it takes longer,) or on a sporty designed car, keep the unlock button on the end of the brake handle on the console pushed in and pull back the brake lever to stop (this is harder to regulate the braking.) it works like your old time non-power-assisted brakes, and no fluid is needed for this mechanical disaster backup.

    downshift as needed for That Last Stop to reduce your workload... and then shut the buggy off and call for a tow.

    I've only had to do it once, with soaking wet brakes, and it does work... and it does take 2 to 3 times the distance to stop you're used to.

    if you're nervous, just for the hell of it, get to an empty parking lot one Sunday or late evening and try it, so you will have done your once-in-a-lifetime practice as well. there are very few total brake failures out there, and almost never on regularly-maintained cars.
  • alcanalcan Member Posts: 2,550
    Open the bleeder screws, push back on the pistons with a C-clamp, and observe how smoothly the pisttons retract. If any binding is noticed, or if the dust boots are damaged, replace the caliper. With the pistons bottomed, check the calipers for free movement on their slide bushings. They should move with moderate hand pressure. Excessive resistance indicates binding bushings which must be corrected.
  • rtonenrtonen Member Posts: 8
    I recently bought brake pads for my Miata. They are after-market pads. I replaced the fronts one's my-self. I wasn't able to change the rear ones because the cylinder was frozen. So i brought my car in to Big O' Tires to have my pads installed. Not only did they give me the run around, they were hounds on having my rotors turned. High pressure sales tactics. I didn't not give in initially. So, when i got my car back, the brakes were squealing or what the rep there said squeaking. Not only did they forget to put on the shims and anti-squeak but they lost the to springs that keep the brake pads away from the rotor. When i brought it back, they told me lie after lie after lie. They said they would order a new kit for free and have them installed. I brought my car back in again. The guy insisted that i needed my rotors turned to get rid of the problem. They offered half off on alignment, if i got my rotors turned. I figured everything would be fine. But...surprise. The squealing is even louder now after the rotors were turned. They forgot the anti-squeal again!!

    Does someone have any input on this? I would to fix this problem once and for all. I'm trying to sell my vehicle and no one will want to buy it because of the annoying squealing/squeaking. If these two things are different could someone tell me what the differences are.

    Now very frustrated.
  • fleetwoodsimcafleetwoodsimca Member Posts: 1,518
    My very sincere advice is that you take your car to a Mazda dealer, perhaps the one that first sold that Miata. Your issues with the "Big O" people may involve matters that only a dealer can quickly rectify for you. Keep all paper work and take notes on every step along the way, in case you need to seek restitution from someone.
  • rtonenrtonen Member Posts: 8
    Thanks for the advice.
  • snowmansnowman Member Posts: 540
    Folks, I appreciate if you guys give me some definitive answers for my questions.
    I have 2000 Taurus and decided to do my brakes in order for me to be sure that everything is done with high quality parts and labor.
    My questions are
    1. Do I need to replace rubber boots on caliper slider pins? If yes are they dealer items?
    2. Do I need to replace caliper slider pins. Dealer is asking $12 each?
    3. Acnhor bolts ( 2 pieces 15 mm), do I need to replace them.
    4. I couldn't see slicon grease in local pepboys store. I was planing to use it on the wheel and rotor hub? What else I can use instead of it.
    5. Can I use sand paper if wheel hub is rusty, if yes what number?

    Many thanks to who takes his time to answer me.
  • jander111jander111 Member Posts: 31
    2 more questions:

    1. If the rotor is stuck on the hub, how do you take them off? I'm considering to replace them.

    2. If the bleeder valve nut is rounded, what to do?

    Thanks a bunch!
  • alcanalcan Member Posts: 2,550
    1. Only if they're cracked or deteriorated.
    2. Reuse them providing there's no pitting or corrosion on them, otherwise replace them. Should be ok if the rubber boots are still ok. Don't forget to lubricate them. (see #4)
    3. Original anchor bolts come with thread locking compound on them. Reuse the originals with 2 - 3 drops of Loctite Blue thread locker on the threads.
    4. I'm surprised that dilectric silicone grease isn't available at your local parts outlet. Check with the counter staff. The slider pins and bushings must be lubricated, but DON'T use any petroleum based products. They will damage the rubber components. Good quality pads usually come with a small packet of silicone grease.
    5. It's absolutely important to make sure the mounting flanges of the hubs are clean with no rust scabs. Same for the inside surface of the rotors if they're being reused. Failure to do so will result in rotor lateral runout, causing brake pedal pulsation and premature pad and caliper slide pin bushing wear. Use a stiff putty knife then #100 paper to clean them. After, put a very light skim of silicone grease on the mating surfaces to retard corrosion.
    If a rotor doesn't want to come off, spray the hub area with a good penetrating fluid and let it soak in. My U.S. counterparts over at Batauto.com all swear by PB Blaster as the best around. Then give the rotor a few good whacks with a rubber mallet to dislodge it.
    Before attempting to loosen a bleeder, strike it sharply (and squarely) a few times with a small hammer to jar the threads. Use a 6 point socket to remove and you should be all set. If a bleeder's already rounded, try Vise Grips (any copycat locking pliers are worthless), then install a new bleeder.
    A couple of more tips:
    Prior to caliper removal, remove the bleeder and bottom the piston with a c-clamp. Place the forcing screw against the outboard pad and the clamp pad on the back of the caliper, then rotate the screw in. It will force the caliper outward toward the rotor, bottoming the piston.
    Index the rotors to the hubs prior to removal if they're going to be reused.
    Do not let the calipers hang by the hoses while performing brake work. The hoses can be damaged internally. Hang the calipers from pieces of stiff coat hanger.
    Clean and lubricate all metal to metal contact points.
    When reinstalling the components, slip the rotor onto the hub and temporarily retain with one wheel nut while installing the caliper.
    Use an aerosol brake cleaner to remove any grease or other contaminants from the rotor surfaces.
    Use a torque wrench to tighten the wheel nuts.
    Don't forget to pump the brake pedal up before moving the car.
  • jander111jander111 Member Posts: 31
    Thanks a lot. One more question:
    Where can I find the PB blaster? I have WD40 and it seems doesn't work very well to free the rust bond in other applications.
    Will look for a Vise Grips, hope it's not too expensive. :)
  • swschradswschrad Member Posts: 2,171
    number 6 or 10, everybody has them. it's from American Tool Co., used to be Peterson Tool in Nebraska. the skinny little 6LN would be perfect for bleeders.
  • moonshadowmoonshadow Member Posts: 256
    i discovered about a year ago that Vise grip came out with the LW series which is marvelous for striped anything.

    The jaws form a three sided triangle with the lower jaw having a raised bump for griping and forcing the head into the other two sides. There are no teeth in the jaws. It simply grips as works like magic on striped screws.

    bleeder screws are a soft material and strip easily. Once it is striped, you only get one chance because the soft material and the teeth in a regular vise grip will tear it to shreds.

    I bought a 4lw and tried it on bleeder screw that nothing else would touch and was so impressed that i went back and bought the 7 and 10 and have since used them on striped oil drain plugs and nuts on manifold heat shields that have been downsized by rust.

    Because of the setup of the jaws, the different sizes fit different bolt heads. the 4lw will handle from 1/4 to say 7/16 and the 10lw will grip around 1/2 to 3/4.

    I now use these right off the get go, on rusted old bleeder nuts to prevent the stripping in the first place. If it has rust it isn't the right size any more and a flare nut will just slip anyway. If it won't release on the first quick push then i will hit the bleeder with the blue tip of a propane torch for about 3 to 4 secs (watch out for the rubber hose), re install the 4LW and presto, an easy release.

    Good luck.
  • fleetwoodsimcafleetwoodsimca Member Posts: 1,518
    Autolite (Honeywell) now has a line of brand new (not rebuilt) components such as starters and generators. Perhaps that includes calipers, but I do not know. All this is worth pursuing, in my opinion, due to the poor quality often found these days in rebuilt components.
  • jander111jander111 Member Posts: 31
    I did an online search and found the pictures of the LW vise grips. That probably is what I want.

    But the problem is: where did you buy them? Thanks!
  • moonshadowmoonshadow Member Posts: 256
    I found them, in all places, at a building supply center similar to a home despot. I have since seen them hidden away in other hardware outfits.

    Have not really seen them in the auto places but also have not really been on the lookout for them either.

    happy hunting
  • swschradswschrad Member Posts: 2,171
    any parts shop that DOES NOT stock vice grips is suspect in my book. check their other products, they might have "Belcho", "Moopar", and "Frod" parts in sorta-familiar-looking boxes... :(
  • alcanalcan Member Posts: 2,550
    .....sold by a guy wearing a Bolex or Rotex watch.
  • jander111jander111 Member Posts: 31
    Yeah, you can find vise grips anywhere but not the one moonshadow mentioned.
  • swschradswschrad Member Posts: 2,171
    whatever, REAL parts shops will have the original, genuine Vice Grip in welding configurations, if nothing else, because nothing else measures up. a wonderful tool. they could have different lines of other tools, but my favorite bad-part crushing pliers is unique.
  • sgrd0qsgrd0q Member Posts: 398
    I recently replaced the front pads and disks on my Maxima (at 40K miles, and due to repeated disk warping and subsequent resurfacing the rotors were too thin, so I had to replace them)

    Now I get a creaking sound from the front whenever the cars is stopped (with the brakes applied) and I start gradually releasing the brakes. Also, I noticed I get the same sound if I am stationary, again with the brakes applied, and I start turning the steering wheel. I think it comes mostly from one side.

    Do you guys know what this may be? Could it be something loose, or perhaps I need to grease any of the components there?

    Any suggestions welcome. Thanks!
  • alcanalcan Member Posts: 2,550
    What brand of pads did you use? The friction characteristics of replacement pads can cause the symptom you describe. The pads can "slip/stick/slip" rapidly against the rotors under the right pedal pressure, causing the vibration you're feeling. OEM pads usually have insulating shims on their backing plates, as do better quality replacement pads.
  • sgrd0qsgrd0q Member Posts: 398
    Thanks alcan. I changed to Raybestos Quiet Stop pads. Do you think the pads are causing it?
  • alcanalcan Member Posts: 2,550
    Quiet Stop are great pads for resistance to squeal and low dusting, but the ceramic blend might be a bit harder than your original pads. If there are no other issues with the braking, I'd accept the tradeoff.
  • sgrd0qsgrd0q Member Posts: 398
    Cool. Thanks! I don't mind the creaking "slip/stick/slip" as long as there's nothing wrong with the brakes...

    Do you think turning the steering wheel while the car is stationary (with the brakes applied just enough to keep the car from moving) and getting this same effect is a cause for concern?
  • swschradswschrad Member Posts: 2,171
    when you turn the wheels and the car isn't moving, you are forcing the tires across the street instead of with the street, so to speak. the treads will "hop" a little after tucking under. I would not be surprised if that's what you feel. it's truly noticeable with the blocky treads on SUVs and mud/snow tires.

    it won't hurt the tires much, but you are scrubbing off a little rubber that you could use down the road.
  • sgrd0qsgrd0q Member Posts: 398
    swschrad - thanks for the suggestion, but in my case I don't think it is the tires. If I put the car in Park and turn the steering wheel it doesn't produce this sound. If I have it in Drive, however, and apply the breaks just enough to keep it from going I get the creaking sound. (If I apply he brakes very hard then again there's no sound). I think the sound comes from the contact between the pads and the rotors.
  • swschradswschrad Member Posts: 2,171
    if you're applying the brakes JUST ENOUGH, then you have a very light contact between the pads and rotor... any runout, unmatched grooving, etc. will cause little intermittent issues of noise and inconsistent brake friction.

    that's why, in the old days, when they actually put steel in brake rotors instead of whisper it while they went down the assembly line, they used to take a cut on the rotors to true them up every pad change. nowdays, because the rotors are so thin to save weight and provide more profit for the parts division (slap, slap! no, I didn't say that!), about all they routinely do is scuff the surface a little bit.
  • tblazer503tblazer503 Member Posts: 620
    may want to double check the torque on the lugs. Usually I'll do 80ft/lbs on cars and 95 on trucks. May want to inspect the slides and mounting bolts for the calipers while you are back there as well.
  • milwaukeeboymilwaukeeboy Member Posts: 19
    A question regarding compressing the caliper piston during a disc brake pad change:

    I have seen one or more references (in this board) to loosening the bleeder screw before compressing the piston. What is the rationale here? I have always just squeezed the fluid back into the reservoir and if no fluid has been added (generally the case) it should all fit back in there just fine.

    Comments?
  • vchengvcheng Member Posts: 1,284
    ...avoids pushing contaminated fluid back up the system which may cause problems, particularly the ABS pump. At least that is the rationale, which one may believe or not.
  • burdawgburdawg Member Posts: 1,524
    It keeps the fluid from overflowing the resevoir and running out the vent holes, making a mess all over.
  • self_mechanicself_mechanic Member Posts: 95
    I replaced a front brake pads on my Civic. I thought the rotor surface was decently smooth. The steering vibrates during braking at freeway speed after I replaced the brake pads. So, I ended up turning the rotor, and the vibration went away. So my question is what is the criteria for turning the rotor? Can we quantify the criteria? With one bad experience, currently I turn the rotor every time I replace the brake pads. It kind of getting expensive since there is a limit on how many times you can turn the rotor.

    Alland
  • bcarter3bcarter3 Member Posts: 145
    I always have the glaze and small grooves removed from rotors or drums when doing brake jobs. The process does remove some material but I haven't had to replace very many due to minimum thickness. I think that having the new pads seat on a flat surface is a good idea. Then again, I know several guys that never turn them and they don't seem to have trouble either!! (^_^)
  • alcanalcan Member Posts: 2,550
    Lateral runout .003" maximum, measured with a dial indicator.
    Thickness variation or parallelism .0005" maximum measured at 5 places around the rotor with a micrometer.
  • Mr_ShiftrightMr_Shiftright Member Posts: 64,481
    Also quite a few manufacturers prohibit turning rotors at all on their cars. You replace them (e.g., Mercedes). It's often cheaper than you might think to do that versus turning them.

    My rule of thumb, (which is only mine) is that I check the rotor for run-out, and if it's okay, I don't care if it has some very light grooves in it---the new pads will bed in, and in theory anyway, a corrugated surface has more surface area than a smooth one. I prefer to keep the stock thickness even if it is a little bit rough (not too deep a groove, however).

    If the rotor is bent or deeply grooved I generally throw it away unless it's some rare type of car of course. New rotors are amazingly cheap I've come to find out, and I mean GOOD material, too.

    The only thing stopping your car is those rotors and pads and that tiny patch of rubber on your tires as it sticks to the road. Skimp on what you will, but not on those things.
  • sgrd0qsgrd0q Member Posts: 398
    I have those pads on all four corners. I've had them for about 7K miles. I need to replace the front rotors, and the dealer says I need to also replace the pads because the current pads (being aftermarket) are two hard and will damage the rotors. What do you guys think?
  • sgrd0qsgrd0q Member Posts: 398
    Can anybody help me with this - see previous post?

    I dont know if I should throw out the Raybestos Quiet Stop as the dealer suggests. Seems waistful since I got very few miles on the pads, but then I am changing the rotors, and don't want to damage the rotors again.

    Anyone know anything about these pads? My car is a 2001 Maxima, by the way.
  • snowmansnowman Member Posts: 540
    QS pads have higher ceramic % than semi metallic pads. Means it absorbs and keeps the heat without comprimising it's performance. This helps rotor to operate lower temperature. I don't quite believe what dealer says.

    I have 2000 Taurus. This brand is very infamous for rotor warpage, however many taurus owners are happyly using QS pads. THe problem is original maxima rototrs are soft for the pads.

    I just installed Raybestos Rotors (the good one and expensive one) with QS pads. So far so good but it is still early. Before I did this, I lurked Ford Taurus forums and read all postings regarding brakes. I have not heard and read any negative comment about them.

    Unlike what your dealer says, go head and get your rotors replaced with Raybestos rotors ($50 piece) and it will be cheaper that original part. You have nothing to loose I beleive.

    Good luck and let us know.
  • sgrd0qsgrd0q Member Posts: 398
    Thanks, snowman.

    Which Raybestos rotor did you install. You say it was the good one - I can only find one that matches my car.
  • snowmansnowman Member Posts: 540
    There were 2 of them for my car. One with $29 the other was $55. I got the expensive one. They come with model numbers. In your case, vist Raybestos page, get their number and call them. This might be another way of deciding.
  • irishalchemistirishalchemist Member Posts: 152
    Hi all,

    I have a 96 Protege DX, 5 spd. Discs in the front, drums in the rear. About a year ago right after I bought the car I did a complete brake brake job (pads/rotors in the front, shoes in the back). I also replaced the rubber bushings for all the sliding pins in the front calipers, cleaned everything, and lubed it with synthetic caliper grease. Except for some hissing audible when braking at low speed, which I suspect is the pads which are to hard (cheap 30 buck item), everything has been fine. Until now...

    A couple of weeks or so ago, I started feeling this wobbling when I brake at low speed when I come to a complete stop in a traffic light. It's a bouncy feel, like one of the wheels was an oval. I took the wheel off, and the rotors are a bit glazed (their color is not metal but a bit drak). It's not the back brakes, because I don't get the wobbling if I stop using the e-brake. Could these be wrapped rotors? I do not have the typical pulsation on the brake pedal when I apply the brakes at highway speeds, so I'm not sure...

    TIA,

    G.
  • Mr_ShiftrightMr_Shiftright Member Posts: 64,481
    Yes, it sounds exactly like warped rotors, but not too warped and maybe only one.
  • 79377937 Member Posts: 390
    You could try indexing the rotors, that is, moving them around on the lugs until the run-out is minimized. Time consuming but you might get lucky and it's worth a try.
  • irishalchemistirishalchemist Member Posts: 152
    Thanks guys. I suspected wrapped rotor(s), but have never felt that bouncing before. As you say Shifty, they are probably lighly wrapped, because when I feel the wobbling I can make it go away by pressing harder on the brake pedal.

    Do you think that if I remove the glazing with emery cloth it would help? I want to avoid taking the discs out and taking them to shop to turn - They are 'el cheapo' rotors, so my feeling is that it will happen again in a few months even if I turn them, and I don't want to spend $$$ in new ones right now...

    As for rotating the discs on the studs until I found a 'sweet spot', boy, that is a looooot of work.

    G.
  • alcanalcan Member Posts: 2,550
    Is there any wobble in the steering wheel at low speed? If so, look for a tire with a shifted belt or a bent wheel.
  • irishalchemistirishalchemist Member Posts: 152
    No, there's no wobble on the steering wheel at all at low/high speed. Also, tires are less than 4,000 miles old.

    I think Shifty is right, and I probably have a (one) wrapped rotor. Plus, I noticed that if I have to brake a lot (i.e., stop and go traffic), the wobble is accompanied by a low pitch scraping sound. I think that as they get hotter and hotter they get worst, and they may be scraping against the caliper bracket or the backing plate...

    G.
  • sgrd0qsgrd0q Member Posts: 398
    I am planning on ordering two rotors on the web.

    Is the installation a simple job? Can I trust any shop to install them or do I need to go to the dealer for that? Also, what is a reasonable price for the installation? The car is a 2001 Maxima, by the way.

    Thanks!
  • painfullessonspainfullessons Member Posts: 8
    I just bought a new Ford Escape, and I have noticed that, when I first start driving for the day, the brakes make a noise when I come to a stop, and then again when i start driving again. If, lets say, I am going 40 mph, and I apply the brakes, there is no sound at all, until I have almost come to a complete stop, and then there is a little burp sound from the brakes as I come to a complete stop. Than, as I ease off the brakes to start moving again, the same burp sound happens. After I have been driving for a few minutes, the sound diminishes with each stoppage, until it eventually goes away. I cannot detect any other brake issues / problems besides this sound. I am assuming it is just due to the new brake pads etc. (have only put about 400 miles on the car so far), but I am still used to my old car which I had for 9 years, and knew all the sounds by heart and what they ment, so any new sound with the new car causes me unnecessary alarm :-=( So I am just being a hypocondriac, right?
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