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Stop here! Let's talk about brakes

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  • swschradswschrad Member Posts: 2,171
    which makes brakes grabbier until you have driven a few miles and braked a few times to wear it off. you should have heard the squeaking while I was lining up to rehitch a trailer last week to leave the BWCAW.

    if it is intermittent, that's what I think you have. go around the block a few times during a rainstorm before picking up your co-workers for the lunch run, and they won't know.

    the good news is, your brakes are still working well... they are just complaining about too much humidity.
  • isellhondasisellhondas Member Posts: 20,342
    Some shops take a dim view of customers bringing their own parts in for them to install so be aware of this.

    They look at this the same way as a person bringing their own bacon and eggs into a restaurant and handing them to the cook..." Here, cook my breakfast"
  • sgrd0qsgrd0q Member Posts: 398
    isellhondas - yes, I am aware of this.

    However if they list labor rates separately from their parts price lists, one would imagine, in theory at least, that the two do not have to go together.

    Anyway, if it is a simple job, and no special skill is involved, I can just see if anyone will do the job for me (out of the numerous service stations around me).

    I agree though - this may end up being more trouble than it is worth.
  • swschradswschrad Member Posts: 2,171
    telling the shop, "I want Foomafrazzle rotors and Glmbfxible pads used on the brakes this time," and let them make the order and take the profit on resale.
  • isellhondasisellhondas Member Posts: 20,342
    If the slightest thing go's wrong...the brakes squeak..whatever, they will no doubt place the blame on the parts you brought in.

    It's not worth it in my opinion.
  • swschradswschrad Member Posts: 2,171
    but them's the breaks. if you want specific brand parts, you can always ask at the parts dealer who in the area installs 'em.
  • flasurferflasurfer Member Posts: 1
    Hello everybody. I have a 1995 Eagle Talon, and it's brakes squeal alot. I've replaced all four rotors and all four sets of pads. The sound went away for a while, and then a week after I replaced all of the parts the sound came back. I have no idea how to fix this problem. Any information would be greatly appreciated. By the way, I have VGX Stealth Pads which are "guaranteed" not to squeal. Would it be better if I used OEM pads or perhaps another brand? Also, the sound seems to becoming mostly from the rear and it disappears if I drive for extended periods of time. I also live in Florida, very near the ocean, I don't know if that matters. Thanks again for any help.
  • grannyonthegogrannyonthego Member Posts: 5
    Why does the light for the Anit-lock brakes stay on or come on while driving?
  • 0patience0patience Member Posts: 1,712
    There is a problem with the ABS system. As long as the light is on, the ABS system defaults to the ABS system being inactive.
  • Mr_ShiftrightMr_Shiftright Member Posts: 64,481
    Trying to eliminate squeal on some cars can drive you nuts. You might try the cushioning material that is sold to be applied to the BACKS of the brake pads (Yes, I have seen it applied to the front of the pad---oh, boy!).

    Sometimes this noise has to do with the composition of the brake pad material, sometimes due to moisture build up overnight, sometimes just how the pad sits in the caliper.

    It's a tough nut to crack. Probably experimenting with different types of pads is the only permanent thing you can do.
  • Mr_ShiftrightMr_Shiftright Member Posts: 64,481
    YOu need to have it scanned to read the fault code, which should be stored by the ABS module.

    And that's right, probably you don't have ABS now.
  • acelinkacelink Member Posts: 106
    Edmunds recommends the use of a "large C-clamp" to push back the piston when installing new brake pads. I know C-clamp comes in a number of different sizes. Can somebody tell me which one to get for the passenger car (Hyundai Sonata) brake pad job?
  • swschradswschrad Member Posts: 2,171
    it has to open long enough to completely span the long side of the brake cylinder so you can push the moving piston back into the cylinder. I think my 1976 buick manual called out a 4-inch for those cars that had disk brakes (not mine.) measure your piston and get the next standard size up, it ought to work with everything on the road that takes a passenger license.
  • gbolton1gbolton1 Member Posts: 1
    I changed a broken brake line on a Chevrolet Corsica and proceeded to bleed brake line in order to get back on road. I was able to bleed line when car was not cranked and had good pressure. Once car was cranked pressure was lost. What am I doing wrong? How do I get pressure to brakes after car is started? Will I have to take car to a qualified service tech with GM?
  • alcanalcan Member Posts: 2,550
    The pedal drops when the engine starts because the power brake booster starts working. The system probably still has air in it. Bleed in the following sequence: RR,LF,LR,RF.

    If you still can't get a pedal, the master cylinder is probably damaged from pistons overstroking into the pitted and corroded areas in the ends of the bores.
  • sequoiasoonsequoiasoon Member Posts: 223
    Many places suggest "pressure bleeding" Griots garage sells a one man pressure bleeder that works well(as well as other places) The idea is that you can add enough fluid under pressure to totally get all the air out without having to "pump" the brakes with the help of another person. Some companies sell colored fluid (gold or blue) so you know when all the old fluid is out of the line. Old fluid picks up moisture and other contaminants that make the fluid less effective and contribute to brake component contamination. If you can't do it yourself with the pressure bleeder, call some local shops for price and time estimate (presuming all your bleeders are not rusted/damaged) I had one of my cars done for I think $50 while I had other work done.
  • according2meaccording2me Member Posts: 236
    I've always had success with the 6" c-clamps no matter what vehicle I've tackled. It also gives me enough room to place a wood block between the piston end and the clamp to help equalize the pressure and avoid gouging the piston end. Murphy is always lurking!!!LOL
  • wxman6wxman6 Member Posts: 15
    The ABS light in my '94 Ciera (125,000 trouble-free miles)came on while my wife was driving to work one morning this past Spring. It turns out that the only problem was that the 2nd bulb in my rear window brake light had burned out (the first one burned out a year or more ago, but I didn't bother with it). After replacing both bulbs, the ABS light is off.
    You will not find this quick cure in your owner's manual. I thought it was awfully coincidental that the ABS light had come on about the same time I noticed the dark rear window brake light as she was driving away down the street, so I finally got around to replacing the bulbs today to test my theory, and no more ABS light!!!

    I hope grannyonthego is as lucky!! it's worth checking out!!
  • Mr_ShiftrightMr_Shiftright Member Posts: 64,481
    Hmmm....very weird. Don't know what to say.
  • swschradswschrad Member Posts: 2,171
    namely, ABS gets its "brakes on" signal from a diode off the high brake lights in Fords for sure, possibly the other domestics. if both the high brake bulbs (usually two, usually incandescent) are out, so then is the ABS. you should have several lines in your owners manuals saying be sure to promptly replace high brake light bulbs when they go out.

    around the twin cities, we all got a good education via the public prints on how brake lights interact with auto computers when a modified drunk van went wild at a winter parade a few years ago, and ran over a dozen folks on a curb. several died, including a baby in a stroller. tranny interlock and ABS sensor both came off the cold side of the high-brake lamps. the cop driving the van never worked again and was invalidated onto retirement, hope he's adjusted by now. the problem was the hinky flash-em-all wiring that was added with the police decals after the city bought the van.
  • wxman6wxman6 Member Posts: 15
    ......for explaining that one! I could find no such explanation in my owners manual in the ABS or brake light sections. I just guessed due to the coincidence....I really didn't expect it to work!

    Our other vehicle is a '98 Ford Windstar. The ABS light has been on for several months. However, my high brake light works, with all bulbs lit, so I won't be as lucky with that. With my Ciera, the ABS light was on continuously, but in the windstar, it is only intermittantly, and usually goes off on highway trips of more than 10-15 miles.
  • Mr_ShiftrightMr_Shiftright Member Posts: 64,481
    You can make a simple pressure bleeder if you want to take the time. What I do is buy an extra cap for the top of the master cylinder from the dealer or a wrecker, and I drill a small hole to snugly fit aquarium tubing. Then I connect that to a small can of compressed air and VOILA!--a $15 pressure bleeder. It's a bit crude but it worked for me....

    When bleeding, if you are using an assistant, I always advise people not to romp on the brake pedal like you were pumping up a liferaft, but rather use short rapid strokes of the foot.
  • swschradswschrad Member Posts: 2,171
    the analogue to pressure bleeding is vacuum bleeding, and I finally found an excuse to buy a little hand pump. worked well.
  • moonshadowmoonshadow Member Posts: 256
    Had a similar problem on a 92(i think) corsica after swaping out a blistered flex hose. Had a devil of a time to bled that puppy. Worst bleed case i ever had.

    I found a couple bleeder screws up on the abs block by the master. Using suction on the mity-vac and my helping foot on the pedal. After i cracked them, followed the regular routine and presto, fixed.

    Not sure it yours has ABS, just my experience.
    Good luck
  • jbernard1jbernard1 Member Posts: 2
    I have a 2000 Impreza L wagon. In June 2002, I first experienced brake sqeak. I brought it to the Subaru dealer where the front brake pads were replaced and the rotors resurfaced. I have brought my car back to the dealer on 3 occasions since due to continued brake squeak. The squeak sounds like a bus when it occurs which seems to happen most days but not all day long.
    The dealer has told me that because asbestos is no longer used in the brakes, the metal is rubbing on metal and that I should not expect squeak free brakes. Is this true or is there some recourse for me? The brake squeak is very shrill, extremely annoying and is driving me up the wall. Does anyone have any advice or had this same experience and how was it handled?
  • Mr_ShiftrightMr_Shiftright Member Posts: 64,481
    Some cars are like that. Not saying it can't be made quieter, but I have seen cars where this has been impossible. Volvo 240 series is a perfect example. Brake squeal is incurable, that's it.

    Best solution I could offer is to experiment with different (softer) types of brake pads and/or aftermarket rotors.

    That squeak is often the result of a rather complex set of circumstances, the elimination of only one of which doesn't solve the problem entirely. So you don't have to do one thing right, you sometimes need to do three things right all at once.
  • sgrd0qsgrd0q Member Posts: 398
    That squeak is often the result of a rather complex set of circumstances

    Do you think it is more than just pads and rotors?
  • silvernubirasilvernubira Member Posts: 59
    1988 Honda Accord LX 5-speed manual

    Few months ago, I had been smelling something burning once-in-a-while when driving. Then I figured out it was the left front brake grabbing. Since brakes needed some attention anyway, I replaced the rotors, pads and the left caliper. Now if I tighten the left caliper bolt fully, left brake grabs again and I cannot rotate the left wheel by hand. If I leave the caliper bolt slightly loose, no problem at all and the brake works perfect except the caliper is loose (caliper does not come out but it rotates up and down a little around the caliper pin. Do I have a BRAND NEW warped rotor? (No problem at all with the other brake/rotor.) Or is something else wrong?

    All responses will be appreciated.
  • Mr_ShiftrightMr_Shiftright Member Posts: 64,481
    "Do you think it is more than just pads and rotors?"

    That could be complex enough...sure, it could be caliper alignment, amount of brake dust accumulated, even harmonic dynamics of some type.

    My approach was always...softer pads, clean smooth rotors, and brake pad "cushioning" material. That usually worked, at least for a while.

    One time on an MG I had I bought high quality aftermarket rotors, softer pads and stainless woven flex lines and boy was I happy I did that. I had to swap the pads out more often but I had so much smoother quieter braking.

    But all cars are different, so you have to approach this methodically I think. First this, then that, then that, always working from the simple to the complex.
  • grannyonthegogrannyonthego Member Posts: 5
    Well, my husband DID change one of the rear window brake lights just before this problem started! I'll have him look at the lights again ASAP. Maybe there's a bad connection or something???? Also, the ABS light stays on all the time now. I'll let you know how we make out with this. Thanks for the tip.
  • alcanalcan Member Posts: 2,550
    Tighten the caliper bolt, then open the bleeder screw and see if the rotor turns. If so, replace the flex hose.
  • Mr_ShiftrightMr_Shiftright Member Posts: 64,481
    You might also inspect the brake "hard lines" carefully. A dented hard line will prevent hydraulic back flow and hang up the caliper.
  • grannyonthegogrannyonthego Member Posts: 5
    Thought you'd all like to know...Hubby changed both bulbs on rear window brake light. ABS light is still on. We've already tried disconnecting the battery to see if that would erase whatever might be in memory. That didn't work either. :>(
  • swschradswschrad Member Posts: 2,171
    your profile doesn't list what year and model of car you have. if it's a 1996 or later, you're in luck, there is a OBDII computer harness that a tech can use to pull the exact failure code from the system with. if it's earlier 90s or very late 1980s, there is a flashing-light code that can be pulled that may indicated the issue.

    I have seen several posts by busy professional mechanics on ABS issues that indicates a munged-up wheel sensor is a pretty common failure... particularly right front or right rear, from a curb hit, for instance.
  • Mr_ShiftrightMr_Shiftright Member Posts: 64,481
    Yeah, I'm not buying the bulb theory right now.
  • swschradswschrad Member Posts: 2,171
    but when the quick try fails, you have to fall back to diagnostics and procedure. throwing parts at a problem doesn't usually help much. not even if you install half of 'em.
  • wxman6wxman6 Member Posts: 15
    .....it worked for me. I felt like I should pass along that info. in case it ever happens to someone else. It's nice to avoid expensive diagnostic and parts replacement costs if it's as simple as a couple of bulbs. That's part of what this forum is about, right?

    Obviously, swschrad's explanation is accurate, about the diode in the high brake light. I feel very lucky that's all it was in my case. If I had replaced the first bulb when it went out a year ago, I would have never even had the ABS light, and wouldn't have learned the connection between the two. Live and learn!
  • roadrascalroadrascal Member Posts: 35
    I'll have to check my service manuals, but I think most vehicles have a low brake fluid sensor and that may or may not cause the ABS light to come on.
  • alcanalcan Member Posts: 2,550
    I repaired a 97 Windstar yesterday with the amber ABS and intermittent red Brake warning lights on. Came in with multiple DTC's, including all 4 wheel speed sensor circuits (not probable). Chased it down to green fuzzy terminals at the master cylinder reservoir's low fluid switch contacts.
  • q45manq45man Member Posts: 416
    On many high end cars [that have diagnostic displays- brake /turn, headlight out], the system measures the current draw from each bulb.

    Off brand cheap replacement bulbs made in SE Asia and Mexico have caused problems, melting sockets/contacts causing system faults.

    At the minimum make sure you purchase Premium LL [long life] grade bulbs.
  • Mr_ShiftrightMr_Shiftright Member Posts: 64,481
    I still don't see why an engineer would allow an ABS light to warn against a burned out bulb. That's a bit of a catch-all isn't it?

    Does your manual say this is so, that the ABS light will light if a bulb is bad. If it doesn't say that, I'm not buying it (yet). It was just a coincidence then. But if it says that, then I'm in.
  • swschradswschrad Member Posts: 2,171
    which two of the big 3 do on all cars. you can detect a "brake applied" signal a number of ways... raw +12 volts from the brake switch, modulated signal from an ABS system, fluid pressure switch off the master cylinder or prop valve, or remote-sense voltage from the cold end of a brake light bulb.

    you have to have something to isolate the input from dead ground in the latter case... a diode or series resistor will work nicely. you now have a clamped input that is never going to go negative, and is going to be limited from the top voltage of the battery and have some spike isolation from other noise sources on the +12 buss by the voltage drop of the brake bulbs. as a bonus, putting a diode in series with the high brake light bulbs drops the voltage across the bulb by about a volt as well... extending the bulb life considerably, as this is about an 8 percent voltage reduction. using 130 or 140 volt bulbs in traffic signals does the same thing, almost doubling bulb life over 120v bulbs.

    you do this in $100,000-200,000 transmitting tubes in TV and international shortwave transmitters that have a 6 to 10 month lead time order-to-deliver, and you can get 10 years on a tube set without replacements. the PDF referenced below from the former RCA power tube operations is a long download, but convincing... if you don't mind deep discussions of adjusting milliohms of resistance at dozens or hundreds of filament amps. also note this is a monograph about 10 years old now, and tube costs have gone up tremendously from the numbers used in the piece.

    http://www.burle.com/cgi-bin/byteserver.pl/pdf/voa.pdf

    so you have a nickel part that takes maybe ten cents to insert in the wiring harness that does a whole lot of things for you in one step.

    15 cents for multiple purposes trumps maybe 40 cents worth of isolating and clamping on the inputs of each of several computers (main, ABS, possibly also a stability control box.)

    that's why we got what we have here.

    I don't have access to my OM right now, I'm alone at work and need to stay close for several hours yet.
  • dunkmydonutdunkmydonut Member Posts: 35
    I doubt all makes are the same, but my mother's Olds ABS light came on..caused by a bad rear brake light. I was surprised myself. I have a Ford with an occasional ABS light coming on, since this is not cause to fail an inspection, it can stay on. The last ABS fix was over $800, and left me with a spongy brake pedal. It's a great safety item, but I think I'll avoid them at least till they improve reliability.
  • q45manq45man Member Posts: 416
    My 14 year old Q has redundant bulbs in the rear 2 of everything in parallel. The system monitors current so precisely that a single brake [or other] bulb failure [1 out of 6] will display a warning on the led display........unfortunately it doesn't tell you which one [other than brake lamp, or lamp, or head lamp......takes 2 people to diagnose. [or a mirror]/stick on the pedal.
    There are 2 brake pedal switches [for fail safe].

    The ABS computer is primed by [one or both of] the brake switch closures to begin looking for deceleration. If deceleration [differential slowing] occurs without the brake signal it illuminates the ABS warning. Both switches are tested independently!

    The point is you must study the FSM and understand the functioning of the systems
  • wilcoxwilcox Member Posts: 582
    1996 Toyota Camry. Used a little Chilton manual as a reference.

       Changed rear disc pads before they wore out. They had 84,000 miles on them. I installed the new pads that I got from Napa. They were some kind of ceramic type. Took the shims off from behind the old pads and reinstalled them on the new ones. Not a squeak to be heard!

    I's so proud of myself for doing this operation.
  • bcarter3bcarter3 Member Posts: 145
    is making it more difficult to diagnose electrical problems in vehicles. I recently had a "Service 4WD" light on in my 2WD pickup and the repair was to replace the HVAC Control Panel. I would never have connected the two and there was no reference in the FSM. Thanks to Alldata I found the applicable Service Bulletin. Both of the Antilock brake problems that I have had were bad speed sensors.
  • grannyonthegogrannyonthego Member Posts: 5
    changed the two sensors that connect to the master cylinder. Light went out...great! But, came back on about 2 miles down the road. Shut car off, started up, light went out...came back on about 2 miles down the road. Maybe on the right track, but we're missing something??? Anyone have any thoughts on this? thanks!
  • swschradswschrad Member Posts: 2,171
    who posted saying he hung a scope on each wheel's speed sensor to see what was up with a cranky ABS issue... found one or two sensors that had a crummy waveform, replaced 'em, no more issues.

    that is surely possible. still don't know what year and make vehicle this is... if it's a 1996 or later, there is almost certainly a code or two stuck in the computer that can be pulled. it will identify what the general function is that is failing, and then appropriate tests for what affecting that function is hosed up.

    there might be a flashing-bulb code if the car is late 80s to mid-90s
  • alcanalcan Member Posts: 2,550
    What year Ciera is it?
  • grannyonthegogrannyonthego Member Posts: 5
    Its a 94 Olds Cutlass Ciera
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