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Stop here! Let's talk about brakes

191012141540

Comments

  • alcanalcan Member Posts: 2,550
    OK, should be the Delco ABS-VI system. First thing we need are the stored diagnostic trouble codes. This system has no provision for retrieving codes without a scan tool, so if you take it to AutoZone they'll usually pull the codes for you (in the hope of selling parts). Post the codes present and we'll go from there.
  • edwardn1edwardn1 Member Posts: 103
    ...and chewed up the rotor on my 85 F-150 with 30K on the brakes. Any ideas as to what caused this? The other 3 pads have over half of the friction material left. HELP
  • alcanalcan Member Posts: 2,550
    Caliper slides sticking.
    Internal restriction in the flex hose.

    With the caliper piston bottomed, you must be able to move the caliper in and out on it's support by hand. If not, the slides are binding and won't allow the caliper and outboard pad to back off from the rotor after brake release.
  • desi501desi501 Member Posts: 66
    With the type of caliper you are using it tells me that something is binding when that bolt is tightened. The first thing I would check is the slide bolt on the top or the slide that is on the bolt you are tightening. Somehow the caliper is twisting when the bolt is tightened. Check that the pads are positioned correctly also but I would lean toward one of you slides being frozen.
  • desi501desi501 Member Posts: 66
    The fact that it isn't setting the code until the wheel starts rotating, I would suspect it is picking up a bad wheel sensor.(assuming you weren't applying the brake at the time)
  • edwardn1edwardn1 Member Posts: 103
    ...when I did the last brake job I failed to use the silicon lube on the rails as I never had a problem like this since I started doing my own cars in 74. It seemed that if the rails were clean all was ok. I guess the lack of grease on the rail let it bind. I bought the grease at Checker, only 99c for a packet of permatex brand silicon disc caliper grease. Should I also put it on the caliper support spring and key before I tap it back into place in the caliper? I did the disc brakes on many mopars without the grease and never had the sticking caliper problem. I'll use it from now on and make sure I can slide the caliper with the piston bottomed like you said. BTW it is a single piston caliper. Thank You for taking the time to help me.
  • alcanalcan Member Posts: 2,550
    You're welcome. Good luck with it.
  • alcanalcan Member Posts: 2,550
    If it is, it'll probably be the right front. That's the one people tend to bounce off curbs.
  • edwardn1edwardn1 Member Posts: 103
    ...Do I put the lube on the CALIPER SUPPORT SPRING and the CALIPER SUPPORT KEY? These are tapped in after the caliper is installed but before the bolt is screwed in. Thanks in advance, I want to do the job right this time.
  • alcanalcan Member Posts: 2,550
    Both. The support key, the L shaped piece with the half-round cutouts, doesn't move relative to the steering knuckle but you don't want corrosion building up under it. Also, take a file and clean all traces of rust off the caliper flanges and knuckle mating points, then give them a light skim of lube. Clean off the spring on a wire wheel or with sandpaper, lube it, and you're good to go. That style of caliper mount will never slide as easily as the pin/bushing type, but they have to move or it'll keep eating outer pads. Good luck with it, let us know how it turns out.
  • edwardn1edwardn1 Member Posts: 103
    ...thanks again for being there. No rust or corrosion to speak of as I live just N of Phoenix AZ. Replaced rotor also, had a moment of panic as Checker Auto Parts had the wrong grease seal in one of the two boxes. Would be nice if raybestos included a new anti rattle spring for the inboard pad. Thank for your help. I find it amazing that even with the lube this caliper can slide over all the contact area it has.
  • alcanalcan Member Posts: 2,550
    Glad to hear it turned out well.
  • mattbratmattbrat Member Posts: 17
    Are Wagner brake pads any good? I have a Honda Civic and was wondering if that brand of brakes are okay. Thanks!
  • mdconsumermdconsumer Member Posts: 14
    Hi, Everyone, I just test-drove 3 different 2004 Accords today (two EX V6 Sedans and one EX-L 4-cyl). The first one I drove was the EX V6 NAV that I am shopping for, and the car's brake action was extremely sensitive--It rocked or shook me whenever I applied the brake. I am not kidding--I felt my upper body rock forward violently (like whiplash) from the force of the brake action. Since this bothered me the first time it happened, I applied the brakes several more times during the test drive to make sure it happened everytime, and it did, rocking me fairly strongly each time. By the time I finished my 5-minute test drive, I was suffering from motion sickness from the rocking motion. This car had 19 miles on it. Because of this, I asked to test drive another EX V6 (this one without the NAV but that shouldn't matter here). This car was just unwrapped with 1 mile on it. The brake action was smooth and I would be happy with this if this was the car I bought. Then I test-drove an EX-L 4-cyl (brand new with 0 miles driven), not expecting the rough brake action because I thought it was a fluke with that particular car, but it happened with this EX 4-cyl as well.

    The dealer salesperson said this rocking motion from the braking force is normal and is typical of ABS brakes. My current car (a 1992 Civic) does not have ABS but have absolutely no jerking motion when I brake and this is a 12-year old car.)

    Does anyone who have 2003 or 04 Accord sedans have similar experiences? Please let me know if you do, and what can one do about it? Is the condition possibly temporary?

    Any help would be greatly appreciated, as I've had my heart set on getting an Accord, and am pretty disappointed that there is this disturbing annoyance with such a basic feature of the car.

    Thanks very much in advance.
    Kevin
  • edwardn1edwardn1 Member Posts: 103
    ...how deep can the grooves be before a turning of the rotors or replacement. I just replaced rotors because of Ford caliper freezing in place due to lack of caliper grease and received conflicting info as to how far a rotor can be gouged by the rivets, some telling me that the new pads will seat in the grooved rotors, even a GM tech bulletin said it was ok if the scoring was light and the rotor min width was in specs. COMMENTS?
  • alcanalcan Member Posts: 2,550
    Maximum allowable:
    scoring = .060"
    runout = .003"
    thickness variation = .0005"
  • wxman6wxman6 Member Posts: 15
  • wxman6wxman6 Member Posts: 15
    For those doubters, it has been 6 weeks and 1,800 miles since I replaced the two burned-out bulbs in the high brake light in my 94 Ciera, and my ABS light has not come back on at all. It had been illuminated continuously for four months prior.

    That should be the first thing everyone checks when their ABS light comes on.......check the cheapest possible cause first, before paying high diagnostic fees.
  • wwestwwest Member Posts: 10,706
    The reason...

    Your cruise control automatically shuts off when it detects the 12 volt application to the brake light bulbs. If, for some reason, the fuse to these bulb(s) should fail then the cruise would never shut off. To provide a failsafe for this situation a low resistance value pull-up resister is provided to the brake light circuit downstream of the fuse.

    Open brake light bulb(s) will allow the ciruit to float up, killing the cruise control. Obviously the same ciruit is used by ABS to detect brake application and so cruise and ABS are likely to fail simultaneously in this circumstance.
  • comanche_ajcomanche_aj Member Posts: 18
    my friends 1994 Ford Tempo has a strange problem. when he presses the brake pedal, the car makes a strange grinding noise and shakes strongly when its close to stopping. when the engine is off, and i pump the brake pedal, it tightens up showing that the hydraulic actuator is working, but when the engine is on, the brakes have almost no buildup of pressure. i filled his brake fluid, and now the brakes work in almost no way, shape or form. the emergency brake is working however. what is the cars problem?
  • alcanalcan Member Posts: 2,550
    The grinding is probably brake pads worn down to the metal backing plates.

    Pumping the pedal with the engine off is just using up the vacuum reserve in the power booster. After that the pedal will be hard to depress. Doesn't mean anything's working properly, just means that the power booster isn't working any more.

    It needs a brake job, including rotors, from your description.
  • notlemnotlem Member Posts: 2
    Had head gaskets replaced a week ago and test driving it after the repair the ABS system activates for no reason. NO faults or light come on and the tires are locking up. It will activate going straight or turning either direction however turning left is the most likely one to activate. It is only at low speeds 0-10mph. It never had a problem before, the mechanic has checked all connections and then had Ford scan the wheel sensors and all checked out. Its at Ford waiting to checked out more on Monday BUT is there anyone with any suggestions or experience with this???
    Thanks
    notlem
  • alcanalcan Member Posts: 2,550
    Intermittent open circuit to one of the front wheel speed sensors, or damaged reluctor ring on the outer end of one of the half-shafts.
  • chris198chris198 Member Posts: 4
    Does anyone know how to gain access to the front dash 3 1/2" speakers. Thanks! chris
  • swschradswschrad Member Posts: 2,171
    usually, if you can't get to 'em from underneath, the speakers are mounted on a trim panel that pries out of the dash. used to be some were accessible from the side, tipping out the glove box or such.

    go gently and with a putty knife if you decide to see if they pry out... you don't want to scar things up. you can use another vehicle and a log chain if you don't care about scarring the surfaces...

    somebody has posted another site that has tons of removal/replacement details several times, but silly me, I didn't bookmark it. something like caraudio.com. anybody have the real url of this?
  • hardtail1956hardtail1956 Member Posts: 1
    I own a 1998 Taco ma, extended cab, 4 x 4 , 4 cylinder 2.7 liter engine, 5 speed manual transmission. For the last year I have had numerous problems related to the e-brake system. First the e-brake light refused to go out,then the brake would lock up.I`ve had the rear drums turned,, replaced the rear drums ,turned front discs, replaced front discs, been told that front discs warp, had the e-brakes checked from every possible position.I drive 100 + miles a day in this truck, mainly hwy. Every time I slow down, quickly, slowly, doesn`t matter how hard I press the pedal, I get a horrible vibration. I just left the dealed and was told the front discs are warped, again.A well respected local mechanic and a nearby dealer have been unable to come up with an answer. This is more than ridiculous.
    6 trips to the mechanic is more than enough. Any body else have this problem? Any ideas? I live in north central Massachusetts and during winter,need to warm the truck before heading out for work. With a standard transmission, that requires using the e-brake.
  • Mr_ShiftrightMr_Shiftright Member Posts: 64,481
    Hmmm...I wonder if your rear brakes are working much at all. If not, then all the braking is done solely by the front brakes, which would explain all your problems at once.
  • bolivarbolivar Member Posts: 2,316
    1994 Ford Ranger Pickup, 2WD, Rear only ABS.

    Low brake fluid definitely sets the ABS light, usually only when brakes are being applied.

    With normal wear on the brake pads, the brake fluid will also fall because of additional fluid going into the system to push the brake pads and shoes further as they wear. Enough to have the ABS warning come on.

    Wonder how many millions of dollars Ford has made through its service department because of this 'feature'. After through and expensive 'diagnosistic testing' an splash of fluid is added to stop the light display.
  • swschradswschrad Member Posts: 2,171
    ford considers that a "feature" because if the brakes are worn that badly, you are supposed to have them worked on. it was in the owners manuals for both my 90 ranger and my 00 exploder.
  • chrisjerichochrisjericho Member Posts: 13
    I have a 93 Toyota Corolla with 95K miles on it. The rear brakes started squeaking a few months ago so I took it to a Toyota dealer that replaced the rear shoes. The squeaking came back soon afterwards particularly right after I started driving the car or if I drove a few miles without having to use the brakes. The dealer recommended I replaces the drums too so I did. Now the brakes are still squeaking when I start driving the car and for the first few minutes of a trip. Does anyone know why the brakes are still making noise? Should I try to replace the shoes again?
  • wtd44wtd44 Member Posts: 1,208
    ...I have discovered that using ceramic base pads and shoes can and will "cure" a multitude of "noise" based brake problems. I intend to specify ceramic every time, starting right now.
  • Mr_ShiftrightMr_Shiftright Member Posts: 64,481
    If the brakes are making noise only for the first few minutes of a trip, that's just accumulated moisture and/or brake dust, I wouldn't worry about it if it goes away.
  • wtd44wtd44 Member Posts: 1,208
    If you find that the brake squeaking is just too disconcerting, and you are willing to go the distance in silencing them, I strongly recommend that you next try ceramic shoes/pads (see post #599). I suffered for 10K miles on my 1998 Pathfinder, listening to brake noise I often found alarming. For the third set of front pads, my mechanic selected Raybestos QS Quiet Stop ceramic pads to replace the Raybestos PG Plus pads. Those Pg Plus pads had been used to replace the Axxis brand pads chosen for the brake job originally. Confusing as that may sound, I am now more than happy with the QS pads up front. The rear shoes are the originals from the factory. Take a look here:
    http://www.raybestos.com/usa/brakepads.htm
  • masspectormasspector Member Posts: 509
    If I can go into a local auto parts store and buy brake pads with a "lifetime" wear guarantee, why don't the car manufacturers use these same types of pads and then you would never have to change pads? Or at least they would be at no cost, if you had to change them.
  • burdawgburdawg Member Posts: 1,524
    Look at the fine print carefully on those "lifetime" pads. To qualify they usually have to all worn down past 1/32" of remaining lining on all four pads. Not very likely in the real world, unless your going to allow some metal to metal contact for awhile. If the pads are so hard that they wear very slowly (or not at all, if that's possible) then the rotors are going to wear out and will mean new rotors and pads anyway, and the pads won't qualify for new replacement since they won't be worn down much. Try as we might, we can't seem to get away from doing regular maintenance.
  • df2000df2000 Member Posts: 60
    I have these "lifetime" pads on my cars. One Pep boys brand made of Raybestos, Others from local store PG Plus, "real" Raybestos. For all the
    "lifetime" is about the same, 3 years. Have no problem to exchange them already couple times at PB and one time at local store, just keep the receipt and 4 old pads in - 4 new ones out. And nobody ever look close to old dirty pads. And if I see a least one pad close to 3/32 it is the time.
  • rad2riderad2ride Member Posts: 1
    My girl friend just purchased a 323i with 32,000 miles last week after my recommendation. The car has M style rims and new tires but there was a slight shimmy. It is still under warranty. She took it in to the dealer in Tucson and was told that she needed new brakes and rotors and pads. She was told that BMW uses soft brake pads and Rotor material for better braking response and that it was not a warranty issue but normal wear and tear. I find 32,000 miles from rotors unacceptable. She was charged over $500 for the work and the car . Is this normal for a 323i with this low of miles? Should she expect to have to replace them again in 30,000 miles?
  • Mr_ShiftrightMr_Shiftright Member Posts: 64,481
    It sounds plausible, especially if the car was driven hard or driven by someone who isn't particularly skillful at braking.

    Many German cars do not permit cutting the rotors, so when they wear or groove they are replaced. Exactly when they DO wear or groove depends a lot on the driver, the type of pads and even the geography of where you live (e.g., San Francisco people are going to replace brakes faster than Kansas people).

    I'm not aware of any manufacturer who would warranty brake rotors at that mileage anyway unless they literally fell to pieces from defective machining perhaps.
  • mjmarketmjmarket Member Posts: 3
    I live in MN and it got below 0 a a couple nights and my wife's 99 T&C 3.4lt eng. van's brakes worked fine out of our garage but by the time she gets to work the front brakes were grabing and smoking . I changed the brake fluid twice and bleed then twice it worked great for a few weeks then it's back .. the ABS light does not come on .. what can I do???? Mike
  • sequoiasoonsequoiasoon Member Posts: 223
    It might be time to change the high pressure rubber hoses going to the calipers. They deteriorate on the inside and don't allow the pressure to be released from the caliper. I have not seen it be effected by temp. but anything is possible. When it sits for a while the pressure is released slowly making it seem OK but 10-15 minutes down the road you realize that it feels like the calipers are sticking (they actually just still have pressure applied). If that does not do it, next step would be to have a reliable shop check all brake parts for same type of issue. Valves/seals inside Master cylinder or equalizer control valve.

    It happened to my friend twice! The "budget" shop said he needed pads, rotors, and calipers on his '97 Grand Voyager. Many dollars later same issue worked fine in AM, 10 minutes later would change lanes if you stepped on the brake (not picked up during test drive)$50 later for new hose and labor to install and bleed, problem fixed. He had the same issue on his '98 Suburban and same shop (some people never listen/learn) changed everything but the hoses again. Had to go back a second time again. Now he knows and also found a new shop.
  • wtd44wtd44 Member Posts: 1,208
    The new concept of electric brakes would stop this brake hose problem. Electric brakes and electric power steering are ideas whose time is upon us.
  • alcanalcan Member Posts: 2,550
  • tpcyjungtpcyjung Member Posts: 4
    I have leased MY 03Disco SE since 11/27/02.
    On my recent visit to nearby dealer for 15K scheduled maintenance service,they recommend to replace rear break pads and rotors as well.
    They reported on 16541 miles
    Front brake pads have 58% remaining
    Rear brake pads 33% and rotors at minimum thickness.

    I think that it could have been a defective rotors or pads from a manufacturer.
    Because, both front and rear brake pads are original ones and never replaced.
    Rotor life should be much longer than brake pads.
    If rotor and pad should be replaced at the same time, either rotor is too soft or pad is too hard.
    However,the dealership said it is normal wear and not covered by warranty.
    As per the procedure for a problem resolution on LR Passport to Service, I called LRNA customer care center and talked to the rep. Rep repeat the same "It is a heavy vehicle. Brakes can be replaced even at 5000 miles depending on driving habit. It is wear item which is not covered by the warranty"

    I had Nissan pathfinde 3 years and QX4 3 years without havinf brake problems.
    It would not be a matter of driving habits.
    I do not think every rotor has same hardness. But isn't there any industrial/manufacturing guide line for the hardness of rotors? I would like to have opinions from the experienced people on this board if the life of rotor could be same as single pad life.
  • Mr_ShiftrightMr_Shiftright Member Posts: 64,481
    "Rotor life should be much longer than brake pads."

    That SOUNDS like it should be true but it often isn't in fact.

    So depending on how your brake system was designed, that is, the compromises that were made among things like weight of vehicle, noise, stopping power, pedal pressure, heat build-up, etc., it is possible that brake pads and rotors will expire at about the same time.

    Actually the only weird part of your story is that the rear pads are wearing faster than the fronts. That is a bit unusual.
  • isellhondasisellhondas Member Posts: 20,342
    Nothing would surprise me...

    Good thing it's a leased car. He can walk away and never look back.

    On Hondas with rear disk brakes, it's fairly common to have the rears go first. During my 45,000 mile service thry found the rears to be at 1MM left. The fronts were at 5.0 mm.

    The rears only come with about 4MM of pad material when new and the fronts have around 10 MM.
  • Mr_ShiftrightMr_Shiftright Member Posts: 64,481
    Ah, that might explain it then. Gee, did they really save that much money making the rear brakes slimmer?
  • isellhondasisellhondas Member Posts: 20,342
    I always thought the fronts took the brunt of the wear. I know on hondas with rear drums, the rears hardly ever need to be replaced. I've seen 150,000 miles and they still look fine.
  • swschradswschrad Member Posts: 2,171
    it isn't (except in the cheapest stuff) asbestos or calcium silicate any more, holding together and cushioning phenolic plastic. it's ceramic, metal threads, etc. the pads are more abrasive, and the steel drums/rotors get more wear.

    yeah, you could get $8.95 pad sets that are basically 1940 technology and gentler on the steel parts. but they're poor quality brakes that will fade, lose almost all power when wet, and so on.

    I have resigned myself to thinking of this as a "control tax" for better vehicle control. and being of stubborn nature, German ancestry, and not wanting to enrich armies of lawyers, can now consider this excellent, as Control Is Good.

    your behavior/attitude modification attempts may vary ;)
  • denjonesdenjones Member Posts: 7
    I have a 2000 Montana I bought used from a GM dealer and just recently the ABS light keeps coming on. At first it was intermittent but recently it comes on all of the time. I think the van needs brakes but I'd rather take it to my mechanic if that's all it is. If there is a warranty problem obviously I'd take it to my GM dealer. (Shame they aren't the same)

    Thoughts? Just brakes or something else.

    Denny Jones
    denjones@chartermi.net
  • wtd44wtd44 Member Posts: 1,208
    "but what's in these fancy new brake linings, anyway? by swschrad"
    Ceramic strikes me as a remarkable pad material, having recently been intro'd to same by Raybestos.
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