Mazda RX-8

the_big_h

read closely, the torque numbers are in NEWTON-METERS (Nm), not ft/lb

216 Nm ~ 159 ft/lb

the_big_h

notice how from 4000 - 8500 (that's a range of 4500 rpm), the torque band is pretty much flat. that means a very flexible engine that doesn't need to always stay in the 5000+ range (a la S2000) to feel quick

speaking of S2000, with their starting price of just 26k compared to 32k for a S2000, the RX-8 sounds like a very good choice for someone shopping for a sporting vehicle in that price range

sphinx99

The S2000 is a convertible. For some, that's worth a $10k premium.

the_big_h

nevermind then... :-P

the_big_h

I do think the RX-8 will get its run for the money against the S2000 performance-wise

blacktalon

My mistake -- 159 ft-lbs is okay, about the same as the Prelude and the S2000, and the RX-8 weighs about the same as the 'lude. Given that the base Prelude has a 0-60 time of about 6.8 secs, I'll be interested to see how the RX-8 compares...

ambull

S2000 does it in about 5.8 secs, so RX-8 should be a little over 6 seconds flat I bet. It weighs approx. 7% more, but has only approx. 4% more max power, but a better torque curve, so effectively 5% more usable power. All other things being equal (which they may not be), the S2000 would win.

sphinx99

I agree, I see the RX-8 being somewhere between a Prelude and a S2000 in terms of acceleration. I think all of these cars will have similar acceleration characteristics. In fact the RX-8 bears some jarring similarities to the Prelude, except of course that it looks prettier. Hopefully it won't be quite as unloved.

blueguydotcom

With torque numbers below 200 lb-ft, the RX-8 is in desperate need of some additional oomph. There's no way it can compete in the sub 30k segment when just about every 4 door sedan out there (save for the ludicrous TSX) offers 200+ lb-ft of torque. Americans may not be big on handling but we all like the feeling that the car will move when one stomps on the gas.

the_big_h

the "X" factor (insert lame X-Men joke here :-D ) would be how the lower center of gravity of the rotary engine compared to any piston engine affects the vehicle dynamic during lateral acceleration. Lower yaw intertia means less leaning and camber change, which means better tire grip, which probably will result in faster speed through and out of a turn.

maltb

don't bore us with that technical jargon. All we care about is 0-60.

:-)

audia8q

I just ordered 5 Rx-8's...which is our initial allocation. All 6 speeds and most will have all the options including navigation and leather. I will be able to make changes for a customer for apx 2-3 more weeks...we are getting apx 15 for the whole year. We are also one of the largest mazda dealers in our state...I was hoping for more allocation.

0-60 times are in the 5.8 range according to mazda and one of the car mags has the car at 5.9

the pre-sell program gives the ordering customer the ability to get emails from mazda detailing the progress of the car and they will also send the buyer special mazda gifts during the wait.

jan orders, which go in this week...are for june-aug cars....feb orders july-sept delivery and march orders aug-sept.

mazda has implied that there will not be any more allocation after that...assuming the car sells as well as expected....Also there is no S-plan or e-plan purchases on the car the first year.

the website...www.mazdarx-8.com is now active with lots of interactive stuff. They are expected to release other details tomorrow (1/8) concerning packages and configs.

I will post details as they come in...

Rich

maltb

http://www.media.mazda.com/press_info/motorshow/2003naias/english/home.html

the_big_h

Rich, I am shooting for a March order and Sept. delivery, IF all things financially go according to plan ;-)

the_big_h

from the NAIAS

http://www.rx8forum.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=1686

the_big_h

is a 'kitted' black RX-8. I don't know about you, but black looks GOOD on this car!

http://www.rx8forum.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=1686

groovypippin

As I was catching up on this thread, I saw that a couple of dozen posts ago there was a brief discussion about an RX-8 convertible.

My old man (dealer principle) has been told by Mazda Canada executives that the convertible has been greenlighted for production. There are apparently even a few picutre kicking around of a prototype - although not publicly unfortunately.

One of the top dogs is coming by for a visit soon, so I will try and get poppa to pump him for more info.

the_big_h

j/k, however, the official Mazda RX-8 site is now fully open, with the ability to pre-order your very own RX-8 through their site.

check this out

Mazda RX-8 Site

dsm6

$27,200 to start on the 6 speed. That includes destination. I won't dishonor the car by mentioning the other transmission choice, other than to mention that I won't mention it.

Funny how no curb weight is given yet.

No EPA fuel economy figures given yet either.

Looks good! Too spendy for me, though, especially when you consider the markups this car will command.

dsm6

Thankfully, it looks like that 27,200 for the 6-speed will get you everything you need - LSD, 18" wheels, larger brakes, sport tuned suspension. The options are just fluff - except maybe the DSC. But hey, DSC will just kill the buzz.

snaphook

Assuming you could get MSRP the RX-8 with sporting package is about $500 less than the 350-Z with the enthusiast package. This puts them about on par in terms of features. I doubt $500 will be a deciding factor for anyone spending close to 30k so it comes down to style , performance and the extra doors/seats(may or may not be a plus). IMO, if Mazda comes out with a 2 door coupe for around the same price it will be "game over".

dsm
I would also like to know what the curb weight is. The same thing happened with the Z, the weight was the last spec released.

the_big_h

read up on this thread. This guys makes a very good argument against trying to estimate how strong a car pulls simply by looking at the raw engine torque numbers:

http://rx8forum.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=931&perpage=15&pagenumber=8

conclusion? GEARING is key to make car go fast ;-)

maltb

he thought the rx-8 was a little lacking after a fairly extensive drive. But, as I said, he has 95 RX-7 (mildly modified).

blueguydotcom

No matter what the gearing, if the car doesn't have the torque power (see Prelude, S2000 and just about every 4 cylinder Honda) it must be wound out to move. That to me is anything but fun. I want power, I want it instantly and I don't want my car to sound like a sewing maching on steroids (S2000 style).

Under 200 lb-ft of torque...no thanks.

the_big_h

stickguy

Audi: How many deposits have you actually taken for the RX-8? I was considering wandering by my dealer tonight to chat.

Are you doing $500 to reserve the car (and configure), fully refundable if you don't like it when it arrives (or a demo is available to test drive)?

Also, when should a preview car arrive at dealers, and what are you expecting as a realistic live delivery date?

And why can't mazda let you get a moonroof without getting $2,000 plus of other options? Would also like the non-sport package with a MT (little leary of the 18" tires).

Actually, are the 18s all season, or will I be forced to buy a winter package from Tirerack? Probably a good idea anyway to protect the wheels/tires (can't be cheap replacing those babies!)

audia8q

We have 3 solid deposits. any price, any color or options. Lots of "I will order when prices and options are released" we will see.

As long as the consumer doesnt want a real oddball rx-8 the deposits will be subject to test drives. $1000 deposits. This eliminates the joyriders and stroke artists.

blacktalon

Do you have actual curb weight numbers?

stickguy

stopped by my local dealer at lunch. Same deal as Audi, 1K deposit, you spec the car, fully refundable when the car arrives. 4 available for April build, June/July delivery (they don't have any deposits yet). Even got to have a nice chat with the manager (not sure if SM or GM) about how to option out the spec cars.

They have about 20 allocated for the first 3 months build (so, what should arrive between June and August or so). Not a huge rush then to slap some money down.

Any idea what the goodies Mazda will send me if I do order a car? Might make it worth while to be an early adopter, instead of waiting until I can see one in person, although I'm not in a particular hurry.

Weight w/b on the spec sheet available on the mazdarx-8 site (link a few posts up). Order a car while you are there.

blacktalon

Maybe I'm missing something, but I only see weight balance, not actual weight on the spec sheet. What is the official curb weight?

snaphook

That's true but now if Mazda would just releases either the front or rear half's weight we will be able to figure it out.

the_big_h

thanks for stating the obvious! :-D

blacktalon

I'm wondering how Mazda can know the weight on each wheel without knowing the total weight. I'm hoping this is just an oversight and not something they're intentionally hiding (i.e. "Here's the all-new 3200 pound RX-8!").

audia8q

black...good question and nothing that I have from Mazda shows the weight.

The pre-sell stuff must have hit the streets yesterday. My internet guy got 4 orders via the mazda pre-sell website this morning with deposits. wow. he is sure smiling today!!

maltb

A gal in the office here ordered one last night. I told her she'd be doing the driving to lunch once she gets it.

audia8q

2930lbs with grand touring package and 6 speed.

I don't have any other weight info.

snaphook

That weight's not bad by today's standards but its still 100 lbs more than the last RX-7. My guess is that owners of the TT RX-7 will be a little disapointed by this cars performance while owners of earlier generations will be more than satisfied.

maltb

I agree and those who have driven them feel the same way. However, I think Mazda has implied that this car is not the 7s replacement but rather an evolution of the Rotary engine.

I still feel that the 93-95 rx-7 was/is one of the finest cars in its price point. When a journalist (C&D or R&T) wrote last year that the RX-8 was the most beautiful car to ever come out of Japan, I couldn't help but wonder if he had ever seen the RX-7. Those things still give me a rise.

the_big_h

eh........ just a TAD too much information there malt.

does your wife know about this? :-D

maltb

I'm talking about it lifting my spirit. After all, this forum is rated G. Geesh, right coasters have their minds in the gutter.

snaphook

I couldn't agree more about the RX-7. I came very close to buying one a couple years ago but after doing some research was scared away by the potentially high maintenance involved.

I find the RX-8 to be somewhat infuriating. It is so close to being exactly what I want but the possibility of a future 2 door/2 seater is enough to make me not want to settle for very close.

blacktalon

Thanks, Rich. That's not bad, especially with the full set of options -- almost exactly the same as the base Prelude.

Personally, I agree with snaphook though -- give us the two-door model...

sphinx99

When the Prelude was axed, many of us wondered about and longed for a Prelude replacement that Honda seemed uninterested in providing. I'd have to say that this is it. Same weight and form factor, but somewhat faster, somewhat higher utility, no funky headlamps, and an emphasis on a large rev band and great handling in a mid-to-upper $20s 2+2. I have a soft spot for the RX-8 already.

snaphook

Deviating from the RX-8 for a moment.
Do you think if the Prelude had been RWD that might have increased its popularity? I personally think a RWD sports coupe priced in the low 20s represents a major void in what is currently available. The Mustang is basically running unopposed. IMO, that should be a pretty easy target to knock off.

judas

"The Mustang is basically running unopposed. IMO, that should be a pretty easy target to knock off."

2 of the main motivations for purchasing a Mustang: brute power/accleration per dollar and vast, cheap, effective aftermarket.

The first isn't easy to beat.
The second, damn near impossible.

sphinx99

Does the RX-8 have a hatch or a trunk?

I don't think that car would necessarily be better, but it might have been more popular. Talking Prelude isn't too off-topic because I think there are some lessons to be learned and applied to the RX-8. The Prelude was a tough sell. The automatics were marketed and sold to young women as upscale versions of the Civic coupe, but that's a tough sell given how cramped and expensive the Prelude was. The manuals (which made up a full 50% of sales volume--pretty significant for any U.S. car) were obviously more enthusiast-oriented, but those were priced in no-man's land; the people who lusted for them either (a) couldn't afford them or (b) could afford something a little bigger and more luxurious like a 3-series coupe. The last nail in the coffin, IMO, was the fact that the Prelude's handling capabilities didn't reveal themselves until 9/10ths driving, and most people can't take a car close to such limits during a test drive. So back-to-back versus an Accord coupe or BMW 3-series or Toyota Celica, the Prelude came off as ordinary but cramped and overpriced. I don't think the FWD was as significant an issue. Look at the Integra.

So now we come to the RX-8. It's even more expensive, and like the Prelude it has a powerplant that one the one hand is ahead of its time but on the otherhand may seem underwhelming next to 240hp V6s and 280hp V8s. It does have RWD however, and its styling is better. Unlike the Prelude (which had probably the worst overall utility of all coupes/hatchbacks, being one of the few true coupes) the RX-8 stands to be quite practical versus its competition. Like the Prelude it'll have superb handling, but like the Prelude you may not be able to sense this excellence during your 35mph test drive on the long straight bumpy road that the local Mazda dealership is off of.

I think the RX-8 will do better because it doesn't make too many (if any) concessions in terms of practicality, and because Mazda is trying hard to market this car and generate visibility for it. Like the Prelude, it's a good car with a good mix of features at a good price, and it has some sports car blood in it as well.

However, I still stand by my belief that the emergence of a RX-7 replacement will render the RX-8 obsolete. Remember, with sales taxes and typical financing, the RX-8 is going to be a $30k+ coupe. That's a lot of green. Traditionally, premium coupes don't do too well unless they can pawn themselves off as entry level sport luxury (3-series, CL-S, G35) or prestige luxury (CLK). The RX-8 can't do that, and therefore it'll appeal to the same sorts of people--people like me--who like nimble Celicas and rev-happy RSXs and pretty looking GTI GLXs and torquey Mustang GTs. Unfortunately, more often than not, people who like these cars can't afford a $30k coupe. That's what will make the RX-8 a tough sell over the long haul. That's also why it reminds me of the Prelude, and why I feel that it'll meet the same fate someday.

the_big_h

"Unfortunately, more often than not, people who like these cars can't afford a $30k coupe."

*checks pocket*

hmm, I JUST may be able to afford one COMFORTABLY in a few months. I can buy one now but then I'll being eating ramen noodles for the next 3 years, not good idea :-D

and don't hold your breath on a RX-7 replacement, because it'll just be a pipe dream if the RX-8 don't sell up to Mazda's expectations. Buy what you like now instead of keep on waiting and waiting and waiting for the next big thing, you'll never buy a car if you do that :-)

the_big_h

and all the premium entry-lux coupes you mentioned are priced beyond the top-off range of the RX-8. A loaded RX-8 w/ Navigation will only be 33k, and a nicely equipped one can be had for 28k. Fits in the upper-20s range very well

ambull

I like the RX-8 because it's a like an RX-7 with two seats in the back. I had a Porsche 924S until a few years ago, and the only thing I regretted about it was the unusable back seat. The RX-8 may not appeal to many people who can afford to drive more than one car, because it is a compromise, but they are greatly outnumbered by the rest of us. I see its competitors (WRX, IS300, 325I, Evo) as less sports car than sedan.

snaphook

Without a doubt people that want 4 doors and a back seat greatly outnumber those that don't. But once you start focusing on specific rather than generic groups and try to determine what they want and will buy it is not as clear cut. There has been more than one sports car that has come out with a 2+2 version. Have they ever sold as well?