Online Services Experiences (Carsdirect.com, Carwoo.com, etc.)

wenyue

from what I heard that they price they negotiate is the final price before tax and title. So don't let the dealership swindle you out of some $300 delievery fee. Occationally, the carsdirect could not get the dealership to agree to the price they quoted you. So carsdirect pays the difference out of their pocket. That's all good, but you will have to pay for sales tax on the amount carsdirect chiped in. That's really just some small change, though.

jond

My dealer did not charge any additional fees. Price I was quoted from cars direct is the price I paid. Of course, I had to pay the sales tax and license fee, no getting around that.

johneel

Here's my CarsDirect expereince; tell me if you think this deal is okay before I go pick up my truck tomorrow. The MSRP on my new 1999 ford Ranger with auto and AC is $17,975. The dealer's invoice (from Edmund's and Kelley Blue Book) is $16,170. CarsDirect (CD) quoted me a price of $15,663. Sounds good. I'm paying $819 in Massachusetts sales tax, an $85 document fee and $135 in licensing for a grand total of $16,702.

Here's where it gets interesting. CD's 6.99 % financing couldn't apply to me because their bank doesn't operate in MA. So CD worked with the dealer to boost the total price up to $16,892, but my price stays the same at $16,702.

That is, CarsD paid the dealer $1229 and I get 2.9 % financing on the amount of $16702 that I'm financing.

I think it sounds great. What's the catch?

wenyue

i think the carsdirect is trying to expand it's user base, even if it means costing them money in the short turn. It's a very common stratege used by most stores (grand opening sales... ect). Why else would it do something fiancially illogical like offering the Acura 3.2TL at invoice a while back? So far, I haven't heard of anyone complaining of a catch. I say, take advantage of it, and be glad that you made it in time to get a good deal.

But hey, keep us posted. I am very interested in this new way of E-commerce. If they are selling well, I might consider investing in them. (Have they gone public?)

emathis

I am considering using CarsDirect to get a 1999 Caravan. Only problem is I have a vehicle I need to trade. Does anyone have any experience regarding how CarsDirect handles trades. What price guide to they use and do they lock the dealer into a price? I am trading a 1998, so need to get as much as possible. I'm going to try and sell it myself, but don't want to take a chance if I make the order and the car doesn't sell.

wenyue

emathis:

Call carsdirect and find out if they help you to do trade-ins. If not, lock in the price, and take the 98 to the dealership and see how much the dealer is willing to give you for a trade. They will probably low-ball, so you might have to haggle hard. If you finally arrive at a reasonable trade-in, then close the deal. If not, call carsdirect and cancel it.

This is just one possibility that i can think of off the top of my head.

ferdd

Just bought a loaded 1999 Toyota Avalon at the quoted Carsdirect.com price which was at least $200 below dealer invoice (I paid about $24,500 for the base model without the sunroof but with nearly everything else)...but the dealer wanted $25,900 for the car so Carsdirect chipped in the $1,400 difference by expressing their check to the dealer. My price included destination but of course did not include sales tax (which was figured on the $25,900 price), title, and the like. Throwing in the Toyota certificate available for purchase on Edmunds saved nearly another $100. MSRP for the car was over $29,000 and I wasn't sensing that local dealers were willing to get anywhere near invoice on the car as my buying experience confirmed. Why does Carsdirect pay up like that? I don't know and I'm not asking any questions. It took me less than an hour at the dealership to pick up the car and drive away. It was the easiest and most cost-effective car purchase I have ever made! Thanks go to Dawn, my carsdirect counselor.

hmergler

I talked to CD about trades. They do not handle them. Once you have a price from CD on a new vehicle and go to pick it up, you can then bring up the trade to the salesperson and haggle on the price of that.

- The Merg

johneel

Here's my follow up to Post 154. I got a 99 Ranger with automotic OD transmission, V6 engine and Air Conditioning, plus a slide back window. I paid about $15,770, and CarsDirect sent an additional $1229 to the dealer. That's everthing, including sales tax, doc. fee, licensing. The dealer got the $500 rebate from Ford and I got 2.9 percent financing. I also traded in -- for $900 -- my 1989 Toyota with 148,000 miles and what my own mecahnic said was at least $1,000 worth of repairs. Whatever you may think of the deal, the only thing CD gains from it is the good word of mouth that I am spreading.

Only bad thing about the deal? Having to venture into the car dealer at all, if just for about an hour total. Creepy financing guy, suspect paperwork ("Oops, you're right. We did seem to make a mistake about the odometer reading on your trade in."), just an oily place. Hopefully e-commerce will eliminate these guys once and for all.

I'd be interested to hear what others think.

larssc

I ordered a Mazda 626 lx-v6 on August 4.
I picked up the car today.
Carsdirect contributed $694
I got a $20,395 MSRP car for $16,296+ $300 tax+$95 processing fee.(includes -$2000 rebate). The dealer was offering $100 over invoice last week, why didn't carsdirect haggle harder?
Some how this doesn't add up. :-)
How much longer are they going to subsidize deals?

imo

Carsdirect.com and carorder.com

So you wonder, how can anyone run a money-losing business ?
On the surface, it seems these companies are giving money away on each car purchase.
But noone is sure how the contract is structured between these internet companies and their affiliated car dealers.
I speculate that maybe the dealers and the internet companies share the "holdback" or "advertising fee" or "finance reserve".
If my speculation has any truth, the internet companies are not losing as much money as people thought.
To make up for the loss, the internet companies also offer services such as financing, and later on, auto insurance and warranty etc.

Ultimately, if the consumers benefit via lower prices, then it sounds like a win-win combination.

benbond

Has anyone attempted to order a car via carsdirect.com but they've been unable to locate the car with the desired specs? They also guarantee delivery by a certain date or they "will immediately take $500 off of your purchase price" (as quoted on carsdirect.com website). Has anyone received the $500 discount because the guarantee was not met? We ordered a 1999 Honda Accord LX Coupe with a manual transmission for $17,186 but they cannot find one within 750 miles of us (we're in north-central Alabama). Carsdirect can find an EX Coupe w/manual transmission at $19,472 but that model is above our desired price range. Of course, the $500 discount for not fulfilling the guarantee would help close the gap between the LX and EX models. Meanwhile, carorder.com is offering the EX Coupe at $19,007 -- very close to the carsdirect.com offering less the $500. Any suggestions and help would be appreciated.

erthquake

I'm still waiting for my Mazda Protege ES. It's still on the boat from Japan. I should get it anytime now (knock knock). I ordered 2.5 weeks ago, and CD told me they already mailed the check to the dealer that included the $500 for being late. Let you know more when I get the car.

-Bryan

goldsmith

I have contacted CD today in regard to the purchase of a Cirrus lxi. The price shown on the website looks very good compared to what I have gotten over the phone from dealers. I have also contacted ABT, and have yet to receive the "best price" from my local dealer. It will be interesting to see haow they compare!

Thanks for all the great info here about CD, the postings have given me info about what to look for and ask about (fees, taxes, financing options). I was expecting to take my time for the purchase of a 2nd vehicle, but the deal from CD may be foolish to pass on. I'll relay my experience as it plays out.

consult1

Well,

I've had my Accord Coupe V6 for almost 3 weeks. I paid more than I wanted to, but I needed a car and was tired of haggling. Thanks to CarsDirect I saved $489.00.

Michelle never contacted me. Although throughout our very short dealing she did get snappy a couple of times, I'm just glad I got the car. I called her yesterday and during our brief conversation, she was quite pleasant.

I asked if I had to report the money to the IRS, she said no. The money was given to me; end of deal. She did ask that I tell my family and friends about carsdirect.com. I'll be more than happy to, I replied. In fact, I have already told several people.

I only wish I had acted up on this sooner. I was very skeptical. So, for all of you out there who are skeptical too, ....Don't think about it another second.

SATOVBIS:
I went to pick up my car personally; I drove about 77 miles each way. I did it for my own peace of mind. But carsdirect.com doesn't mention any delivery fees. You better check with them again. Don't trust anything the dealership tells you.

My situation was different. I had just returned the vehicle I had been leasing, and was actually driving a rental car. This is why getting the car in less than 24 hours was crucial for me. CarsDirect.com was AWESOME!!!

I'M GLAD I DIDN'T HAVE TO WAIT FOR THE CAR.

hyundai3

Has anyone noticed that the carsdirect.com website requires that you enter a credit card number on an unsecure connection?... not exactly inspiring confidence in an internet company. Am I missing something here?

freeflyer

I had a Carsdirect order put in late July. They had some sort of server crash and lost everything related to outstanding orders, customer files, etc. In some cases the sales reps had no way to contact their clients unless they had written down phone numbers elsewhere. This means there were no offsite backups and not even a hardcopy printout available. Talk about not exactly inspiring confidence...

benbond

Just FYI. CarsDirect worked out great for us. My wife and I picked up our brand new Honda Accord EX Coupe w/ manual transmission last Friday. We had to drive a couple of hours to get it but no one else could find what we wanted -- not even the local dealerships. Actually Carsdirect couldn't either (we wanted an LX instead) so they honored their $500 guarantee and we ended up with the EX for less than invoice price. We are very pleased with CarsDirect and still shaking our heads about how they make any money. CarsDirect delivered a $1463 check to the dealership and we paid approx. $100 less than invoice price as shown on Edmunds web site. We paid nothing to CarsDirect. Anyway, we are happy and now out of the car market. Good luck to all.

wenyue

Any insiders know how carsdirect is doing this seemingly without profit at all? How in the world are they going to make profit when all they do is to chip in money. I guess we all better take advantage of this while it last, but still I would like to know if there is some inside trick that is allowing them to make profit somewhere. hmm...

hmergler

I posted a message about how I think CD will make money a while ago, but since more posts have come up about this, I figured I'd shell out my theory again...

According to a CD employee, CD is currently in the stage of trying to get connections with dealers for them to work with in the future. Their initial capital investment is allowing them to pay out all this money. At the current time, they are not working to make a profit. CD will hopefully start a finance department to offer loans to its customers.

No my thoughts...
Right before CD starts up its finance wing, it will IPO. It will then use the cash influx from the IPO to support the initial loans it will be making for customers. Since, CD will hopefully have worked with dealers of all types, all across the country, it should be easy for them to work out deals and locate cars for the customers. Then, CD will make money from the loans it is making.

IMHO,
The Merg

pschiffe

See my post #231 at SUVs Board Topic #354 for my Lexus RX300 purchasing experience through CarsDirect.com.

jiimmm

I purchase a es protege thru carsdirect, and will pick it up in two days. The local dealer has confirmed to me car will be ready and that carsdirect is sending them a check for $2,000. It took alot off persistence on my part, as they originally say they could not find a 5 spd. I found 2 of them at local dealers & gave then the name, phone #, etc. I sent them numerous e-mails confirming all our phone conversations. It has all paid off as I got a very goood deal. My advise is don't hesitant to use them if their price is right. Lastly they knocked $500.00 off price without blinking a eye for not meeting the guaranteed delivery date!!

hyundai3

I posted a comment about CD's lack of web page security on the credit card page. Here is their fairly prompt reply to my email. Bottom line, I think they fixed it, because originally I tried jumping back and forth between secure and unsecure and IE5 browser never alerted me. I admit I didn't look to see if it said https. The lock never showed up. In fact, it still doesn't unless you go to the part of the page that should be secure and use right mouse button to open it as another window. Then it will show the lock. Otherwise it tells you that it is opening both secure and unsecure parts on the same page. It didn't do this last Friday.

Anyway, once I was convinced I had a secure connection, I submitted the order. More as things unfold.
************
Thank you for your interest in CarsDirect.com. We appreciate your feedback to help us make the best car buying experience possible.

Please see the following explanation from our web team:

Why doesn't the applications appear to be in SSL?

The application pages are contained in a frameset. This frameset is the same for the configurator and the application process. This frameset does not enter SSL mode so it will not display the closed lock in Netscape or the https: url in the location window.

How can we be sure the application is in SSL mode?

After submitting the personal application the user enter into SSL mode. Some browsers will give an alert message telling the user they are entering
SSL mode. If you open that frame in another window you will see the locked lock in Netscape and the url with https.

I believe the new version of the site up as of this morning shows this as secure by the more traditional means.

Should you have any further questions please feel free to reply.

Thank You,

Serko Ashikian, Advisor
*******
This was my comment...
Your web site requires me to enter a credit card number on an unsecure web page. I wanted to send in a purchase request, but I won't do it on an unsecure connection.Thanks,

repj

I called up Carsdirect last Wed. 8/11 and ordered a 99 Mazda Protege ES 5-speed w/o sunroof. These cars are very scarce right now. Yesterday my carsdirect rep told me that there were none left in the Washington, DC area. Well today I called and called the local and not so local dealerships. I finally found one that met my criteria (it is green wihich is not exactly the color I wanted but I am willing to be flexible on that. I just sent the name and phone number of the dealership to my carsdirect rep by email. I hope that he is able to work out a deal for me now that I have found the car I want!!

dae3

Well, the carsdirect site is under construction right now and is totally unusable. So far it seems like the changes they have made in the site are for the worse. I hope they can get it straightened out quickly.

hmergler

Anyone notice that if you select to configure a 2000 model year car that is not available yet, CD still shows the delivery guarantee of 1 week or you get $500 back offer? I guess if you want to beat the system, don't specify that you want to factory order it, and see if they keep their word of giving you $500 for not getting the car to you in a week.

- The Merg

fangg

I talked with a CD rep before and she told me the 1 week guarantee was for '99 models only.

repj

Carsdirect made the deal for the Protege that I found. Plus I am getting an extra $500 knocked off the price since they did not find me a car within the guaranteed week. Am happy about this! Kind of appropriate since I was the one who had to put so much time and effort into finding one of the few 99 Protege ES 5-speeds w/o sunroof left at the dealers.

kgclark

<<I originally posted this message in the Pathfinder forum, but thought I'd duplicate it here>>

I am the proud owner of a 99.5 Pathfinder LE 4x4 and have to give kudos to Carsdirect for making this the best car buying experience I've ever had!

First off, let me state that I live in Eugene, OR. There is only one Nissan dealer in the area. Eugene is a mountainous region and therefore has a strong demand for 4x4 models. My loaded 99.5 LE 4x4 with leather/sunroof/limited slip had an MSRP of just over $35000, but the dealer added an ADDITIONAL $2000 markup citing regional demand. So the asking price was $37000 and some change. I talked to several salespeople who flat-out lied about the markup and pointed out that the $2500 dealer incentive doesn't automatically go to the consumer like a rebate does. After talking for a few minutes, I got frustrated with their attitude and decided I would drive 2 hours to Portland to buy my truck where there would be a little more competition.....

Then I found Carsdirect.com! I'd read the various messages posted on this site, and like most others thought that there was no way in the world a company would do what carsdirect.com does. It just didn't make any financial sense to me.

Carsdirect quoted me a price of $28847, which was 8k less than the local dealers asking price and 6k less than MSRP. I paid the $250 carsdirect "deposit", (which was never even charged to my card BTW) and within 2 hours got a call from a CD rep. He found a car at a local dealership....guess what....it was the SAME car at the SAME dealership that were unwilling to heavily negotiate. The CD rep was able to talk them down to 30k. That was still more than $1100 higher than the Carsdirect quote, so Carsdirect OVERNIGHTED A CHECK for $1153 to my dealer! No one at the dealership could believe it. The whole place was abuzz. I placed my order at 8:00 am and had my car after work, and spent about 45 minutes at the dealer signing paperwork. How easy is that!

Basically, carsdirect paid me $1153 for using their web site for 20 minutes AND eliminated every bit of the unpleasentness inherent to car-buying. How do they do it? There is ZERO opportunity for profit. If I didn't have the car in my driveway, I wouldn't believe it!

Kevin

skytopher

I ordered a 2000 Nissan Frontier on the Carsdirect
web site last Tuesday. They had a hard time
finding a truck for me, and then the perfect truck
rolled off the semi at a local dealer this week. I
emailed my rep at carsdirect and told him about
it....yesterday he called me to get a little more
info on the truck and then he called the dealer.
The dealer called me and said, "come pick it up!"
I got the truck for invoice + 2.9%. That includes
the $500 they took off my bill because it took them
nine days instead of seven. When I got into the
truck to drive it home, I glanced down at the
odometer. The total mileage was....4. Life is
good......
Chris

aprilchen

I have another question about picking up my
Protege LX-auto order. CD.com. has found one in a dealer located about 40 miles away from my place and I plan to go there soon. So, I just wonder if I could still test drive that car at first before settling. Has anyone ever had the same experience?

Call me a "too-cautious" person; however, I just
can't 100% trust before I test drive. Many thanks for any advice! --April

kimt

aprilchen,

You can test drive any car before u sign the dotted line.

If u dont sign it's not your car. They will let u drive it, for sure!!!

ilya2

Just picked up a 626 ES V-6 with automatic, ABS
with traction control, and cassette. Total price
thru CarsDirect...$19,300. I am very pleased.

CarsDirect had the exact car I wanted in less than
a day. This after two local dealers told me they
could not find the exact car with the options and
color I wanted in the entire West coast!!!

After applying online, I received a phone call
from CarsDirect in the morning. He called me back
three times that day to confirm everything.
It was a good experience, especially since I
didn't have to jump through hoops with car dealers.

millandj

Just tried to access CD website; note there says they are offline. I sent an email but haven't heard anything yet. Does anyone have a phone number for them (hopefully toll free!) You can post it here or email me direct. Thanks in advance.

Red
RMillander@aol.com

rbg1

For detailed information about my recent experience with Carsdirect.com, please see posting #397 in Vans Topic #608.

rpjsfo

Great story on what you went through, glad it turned out okay. I checked with carsdirect.com last week and their prices were a few hundred dollars above carOrder.com($1300 above invoice), but they guaranteed a Sienna in one week. I logged in again to carsdirect.com last night and the prices have jumped to above MSRP with availability still in one week. Geez, what's going on with their pricing?

charco

What if any is the difference between carsdirect and carorder.com. ?????

As far as I can tell it's that carsdirect guarantees a delivery date and carorder dosn't. Are there any recent carorder customers out there?

Any thoughts from anyone on the similarities and differences?

dkfann

Here's an update for those interested, related to earlier posts # 131, 138 in this topic. Sorry about the long post -- but unfortunately the story is a long one.
My original CarsDirect order was submitted 7/6, and I still do not have my car. It took over 3 weeks before a human contacted me (other than to collect a deposit), and during that time no one was looking for the car. Once she began the search she found the car for me in two days -- or so she thought. They (CD and the dealer) asked me to sign and fax back a car order contract. I said ok and asked them to fax me the car invoice so I could double check. Good thing I did! The options on the car she found did not match what I asked for! I was within 5 minutes of signing the final car order papers at the time. Close call! After much discussion in which they (unsuccessfully) tried to convince me to take the car anyway, they agreed to start the search over. Then believe it or not the same thing happened AGAIN! Another car, but still not a match to what I asked for! By this time, 3+ weeks past original order, the model I wanted had become extremely scarce and they could not find another. Then early this month a local dealer I also had on the search called -- he found the car! It was in another dealer's lot and he arranged a trade for it. After double checking the invoice (!) I told him about working through CD and he was fine with that. He and CD worked out the price and then told me. Price was good, I agreed and asked about the $500 guarantee. CarsDirect said they would NOT honor the $500 discount for being late because my original order was before that policy "Officially" went into effect. I still wanted the car anyway so I put down a deposit on the car and signed the purchase contract with the local dealer. That evening the trading dealer sold the car to someone else! (They KNEW I had money down on it -- and they HAD agreed to the trade.) At this point, SEVEN WEEKS after my original order, CarsDirect has given up on trying to find me the car I wanted. So now I have yet another refundable deposit down with CarsDirect's area dealer to hold a 2000, but I have no actual price and no idea what the financing will be since I missed out on the special 1999 model year deals.

So the moral of the story is: (1) Double check the paperwork on everything. (2) Don't believe the deal until the car really is sitting in your driveway. (3) If you want something that is scarce, be aware that if you wait for CarsDirect you may miss out.

rbg1

Carsdirect's pricing seems to be a moving target, as both you and I found out. Also, as dkfann and I have noted, the "guarantee" of one-week delivery is not to be believed. (The only bright spot is that they'll usually reduce your price by $500 if they can't deliver on time. But it appears that they're now inflating their prices so that, even after the $500 discount, it may not be a great deal.)

I hate to be an ingrate (since Carsdirect subsidized my deal with a local dealer), but if I were starting from scratch I would forget these car-buying services altogether. Instead, I would personally send a separate e-mail to every dealer within reasonable driving distance, with an exact description of the desired equipment and price to be paid for the car. If you're able to contact enough dealers, this is the most efficient way to locate the car you want, and you will certainly hear back from one or more that are willing to negotiate an acceptable price.

ajulius

Hello. Carsdirect.com has the best price Ive found by far for the 1999 Mercury Mountaineer. Ive found ones I want but most are approx 200 miles or farther away which I located via dealernet which has alot of online inventories. In my area they dont seem to get the v6 Mountaineers, only the V8's. The thing I dont understand is how the financing would work. I dont want to give a deposit without being assured that I can get the 0.9% financing which is only available in certain regions, and some regions may have residency requirements for the financing. Carsdirect seems to have the attitude that I need to pay a $250 deposit before I can find out whether or not the dealer they negotiate with will qualify me for the 0.9% financing. Mercury has this financing so confusing, but if I can get the $26,700 price with 0.9% financing that Carsdirect has, I would buy it right now. If anyone has any suggestions as to how I can guarantee before I give a deposit that I will be able to get the 0.9% financing (which only some states offer) and the same price, let me know.

gpumpkin

THe pricing is a bit iffy. Earlier on this thread, someone mentioned that CD sometimes includes rebates, sometimes not. But I thought the whole point was to nail down exactly what you want at an exact price. And it seems to me the terms of any factory financing should be included upfront (and your offer should be contingent on getting approved). Otherwise you don't know exactly what you're putting the deposit down for.

jiimmm

I just got a car from carsdirect last week. I got the mazda 0% financing, no problem. After you place your order, they will call you the next day to confirm everything. When they call tell them you want to apply for the manufacturers special financing. When they found my car I gave then my credit info over the phone, they arranged for the financing thru the dealer and I was approved next day. Also they never seem to actually charge the $250 deposit, not for me anyways, & it is refundable. The rebate is included in the price they quote.

I wouldn't hesitant to use them, they saved me 2k.

cheewc

I just got a corolla from Cardirect.
Had waited for about 2.5 weeks for the car I want.
The process was not exactly difficult but be careful when the car u want is not easy to find in your area. They gave me a car that did not have the options I wanted initially. Luckily I asked about it before committing to the deal. I then asked them to find the exact car that I want (which they did eventually), but it took some time.

The good thing is that they sent a check of over $700 to the dealer so that they can sell me the car at the agreed price.

hmergler

From what I've been told, CD now includes the cash rebates in its price quote. Although there might be manufacturer financing available, you would then have to add back in the amount of the rebate then to determine the cost of the car (ya know, can't get the rebate and financing). As for the deposit, I was told that it is refundable no matter what. The idea is that you get to the dealer and when you try out the car you do not like it, hence you don't have to buy the car and can get your deposit back.

- The Merg

mcgreenx

I don't get it. I am interest in a Chrysler LHS and have been offered several at invoice. The CarsDirect site says they will get it for me at more than $1,000 over invoice. What's the big deal, or am I missing something?

charlesf

Could the at invoice be a 1999 & a $1,000 over be a 2000?

ajulius

With the Mercury Mountaineer, there is no rebate in lieu of the financing. You get the incentive and the rebate. However, the financing rate depends on the dealer carsdirect gets the car from. I was told that if I buy the car outside of NY State where I am, I will get the 0.9% financing rate. However if the dealer they pick is in NY then Im SOL. Because Carsdirect wont know the dealer they get it from till I place the order, carsdirect doesnt have any idea if the financing rate is good or not untill the deal is made which is a problem for me. I was told they dont get the v6's in stock in NY and the ones Im finding closest to my specs are in the DC area so the likelyhood is that the financing will be good (Im still checking with the DC area dealers to double check), but can I back out of the deal and not lose the $250 carsdirect deposit if the deal isnt what I expected?

skao

Hi,

I've just checked CD's price on 1999 Lexus
ES300. Their price is 5% over invoice. This
doesn't look like a good price. I've heard that
they quote at invoice price.

CarOrder prices 1999 Lexus ES300 at invoice
price. The only problem is they only have black
color.

Shao

dae3

They price each type of car at different levels according to what the demand is. Their VW New Beetle price is a thousand over MSRP. The 99 Ford Escort price is $3500 under MSRP. It all depends on what car you are looking at.

millandj

What has been up with the CD website. I have been trying to close a deal on a 99 Intrigue GLS and the price has been all over the place. The price I was quoted has changed twice and the rep keeps talking about a $1500 rebate I can't independantly verify. (I can only verify $1000) Any insight out there before we go final on a price Monday?? Red