I too echo ant14's sentiments. It is a bit premature to sound the death knell for this fine automobile.
I think the vehicle has a lot of positive things going for it, and I too,would like to accent the positive. I have driven both the 2WD and the AWD versions, and the vehicle performs admirably...especially in the 2WD version. This is the one I plan to get, since I do very little (read NONE) 4 wheeling.
Yes, it IS a Ford product, but some of us are partial to Fords.... they are not too bad. I think putting in power seatbacks and having a better way of operating the tilt steering (instead of the mickey-mouse way it is done now), would make things better. That adjustment should be easier, and the range of movement should be increased significantly.
Lincoln depreciation should be considered as well, as they are known to be quite "soft" as compared to foreign makes. It is all in perspective, but that "perspective" can cost an owner quite a bit in the long run. Domestic models like Lincoln and Cadillac start off high, but disporportionally depreciate compared to the others. I could wait a couple years until it depreciates, but I would like it as new as possible. Hopefully I can get it at a very good price to mitigate the "sting".
Give the vehicle a chance. I think it will suprise a few of the "naysayers" as time goes by.
I have driven my friend's new Aviator extensively, as well as just about all of the competition in the class. Volvo's XC90 is the only one I can think of I haven't driven yet. I think it's the best performer bar none! Most comfortable, most powerful, easiest to drive, nice exhaust note, great sound system..... Not as big as I want, but probably as big as I need. Sometimes, I think I should have bought one instead of the Navigator, it's that good!
the sensing rear view mirror is standard with the navigation system if that is any consilation to anyone.
the power seat back should definitely be added as well as the telescoping steering wheel.
heated rear seats could be an option.
otherwise the vehicle is perfect in my estimation. drives like a rocket
i ve driven most..including the volvo.the mercedes..the pacifica the acura the bmw...the escalade has nicer seats. but is too bulky.the volvo was too minvanish for my taste.and tight second row the lexus rear hatch back is rediculous but its interior is nicer than the aviator. the lexus ride is as good as the aviator and the lexus is better off road if that is what you are going to do with your fifty thousand vehcile.but they want sticker for the lexus and 5 per cent financing..this adds up to over ten thousand more for the lexus gx vs the aviator similarly equipped
the acura s fake wood irked me..as well as the minvan platform the bmw is underpowered unless u go to the highest level.
i d recommend the awd on the aviator even if you do no 4 wheeling. it makes a big difference in the rain. I know this because my 96 explorer was in 2 wd as it once begin raining..and i lost traction on a turn. I could definitely feel the difference in the rain with the 4wd vs the 2 wd in my 96 explorer.
if the awd saves you from a dangerous situation one time it is worth it.
the rear bucket seats are awesome in the aviator. the navigation and rear dvd are outstanding..the steering and handling are incredible..i could go on and on..
i got silver with parchment interior navigation,rear entertainment, moon roof, advance trac and trailer tow for a few hundred less than invoice and 0 per cent for 60 months
i m happy with my deal
the acura is probably your best value..but its too bland for my tastes..plus i truely believe buying American whenever possible should be a factor in one s mind.
the land rover is the best off road that i tested. but i drive off road 0.l per cent of the time.
ps someone should actually give specifics of the depreciation of the vehicles. i ve always heard the lincolns and caddies depreciate more..but i dont think its that big a difference ..especially if you factor in paying near sticker and 5 per cent financing..on a 39 month lease the aviator residual is 49 per cent..the lexus gx was 52 per cent..not a heck of a difference in my mind.
You mention an interesting point. I actually wrote an article once on the depreciation factor, between american manufactured vehicle, over foreign vehicles.
Without getting too much into detail or off-topic, I'll use one of the analogies.
Let's take a Windstar and Sienna (previous version at that time) as examples both with the identical features, options, etc.
Compared the initial cost up front to purchase both vehicles, having to pay closer to window sticker with the Sienna. Sienna requires the pricier premium gas. Also took into consideration the cost of the most commonly changed parts on a vehicle. Brake pads, alternators, starters, others, etc. The cost of replacement parts depending on accidents, and threw that into the equation, as well as the overall insurance premium need be paid yearly. Then factored in the "trade-in value" of each vehicle, and their measured depreciation within their group and sales.
Conclusion: While the Sienna did hold up it's value and didn't depreciate as much, it's overall maintenence costs, and repair costs were more so than that of the Windstar. Therefore having the Windstar in serice during the 3 year duration was cheaper by $423 over the Sienna.
So how does this relate to the Aviator? Simply put, there's numerous other vehicles it can be compared to, performance and feature wise, but overall it's upkeep might be a hidden factor many other's fail to see, or research. It can be said that those spending $50K won't care much about depreciation and such, but it's just another factor to keep in mind.
yes..you are more on target about cost of ownership than me just mentioning one factor..depreciation.
i heard parts for the volvo are sometimes difficult..for example if in an accident..and the lease payments go on even though your vehicle might go out of service..for months
so there are many factors...
i m glad your article demonstrated that buying american can be a good economic decision.
i d be happy if more of us chose American whenever possible..
in your example..the American choice was 400 dollars less expensive...than the foreign choice
but i d like to think if even the foreign choice was 400 dollars cheaper over three years..the American consumer..would be wise enough to support the American economy...with purchasing American products..
i m sure now there will be posts about the ml and lexus being manufactured in the US and some fords are manufactured outside the US,
so if thats the case..then pick an American vehicle made in the US
if the American vehicles are shoddy in workmenship..then I dont propose buy American no matter what..
but if its close...as is the case nowadays..
then give the American the edge
case and point...the aviator vs the lexus gx 470 in my mind they are close..but...i like thinking someone got to work in St Louis because i purchased an aviator and maybe some retired lady in wyoming was happy her ford stock went up in her retirment mutual fund because of my purchase..( sounds a bit grandiose..but if we all made a consious effort...think what a boost to the economy )
I wonder about the people driving foreign cars complaining they are unemployed...i hate to say this ..but DUH...
Patriotism and support of your fellow American needs to be fostered.
You bring up an intersting point... Buying american. In these times of Globalization, who knows where exactly the money goes. Or even product results.
Example...You have Land Rover, an english (roots) company, which was owned by BMW (A German company), sold to Ford (An american company). Out of that marriage, we receive the BMW designed Range Rover. Money goes to at some point ends up at Ford U.S., which some of it goes to BMW for supplying it's engines. A deal that I believe will expire in 2-3 years, at that time Ford will implement their own engine.
But in the end, the money WILL go to the HQ company, that is Ford U.S... therefore, as much as we go around the circle, it still goes to an american company.
Or another example. I was visiting a friend at her job (school, she's a teacher) and one of the fellow teacher's was harping about her having to boycott French/German products, because of her personal belief's about those countries not supporting the U.S. in the Iraqi invation. She had put down another fellow teacher (friend) for buying a Nissan (owned by Renault, a french company).
I eloquently asked her what vehicle she owned. She stated a Ford Explorer. While it's not obvious at first, I pointed out her car had a german engine (the Cologne 4.0L) with a french transmission. And to immediatly turn the car in at the dealership, so she can complete her boycott. Obviously she was not amused considering everyone was laughing at her for her ignorance.
Then she reverts saying "Well I guess I should have bought an all american car, like such and such's Saturn L300" (my friends) To which I tell her "based on a German Opel Vectra platform, using a German 3.0L engine". She kept mentioning vehicles, and I kept frustrating her with stating where certain parts came from.
On the opposite spectrum, you have those that believe the opposite. I hear much, "Honda has been building cars in the U.S. for over 18 years, and they employ American workers, etc so I'm doing my part". But the money does eventually end up in Japan, any which way you look at it. Hence, Look for the HQ Company's location.
Considering we have much more manufacturer's building factories in the U.S., we are reaching a point where we can't really blame the American autoworker for shoddy workmanship. Camry's, Accord's are being built by the same American workers that are also building GM's, Ford, and BMW's.
So where does the fault lie? There's many steps taken from the process the vehicle is designed, to it's overall execution at the factor. With today's very complex vehicles, there's more chances for a mishap. The key is to keep the design simple, and most importantly, keep the factory efficient.
Ford is overhauling the majority of it's factories, and it's results are evident with latest quality and dependability results. The equipment, processes, manufacturing techniques are beginning to set standard's in the automotive industry and we will soon see it's results.
Keeping factories operating at their peak efficiency without over-capacity, building supplier parks within the compounds to ensure the parts are available as the vehicle proceeds down the assembling line, enables Ford to cut quite a bit of cost. Costs that can be later applied to vehicle development (new products), improved materials (as we will begin to see), refinement.
Competition always improves an automaker. And american manufacturer's were concentrating too much on profits from SUV/Trucks in the 90's to invest in their factories at that time. Now they have seen the light and understand they can't afford to lose market share, therefore quality/refinement, are becoming priorities... And the factories that allow them to execute these factors, are currently being upgraded.
Does anyone know what the bottom-line advantage is b/w the 2wd w/limited vs awd considering cost and time of usefulness (eg. snow days, not many snow days here in OK)?
As I mentioned about, where the vehicle is made, where it ends up, etc. It can end up, and start anywhere. Even some Focus' for example, are assembled in Mexico, although most of their parts originate in U.S. factories, made by U.S. suppliers. Or like Ford's Canadian plants, where the same issue occurs.
The majority of Ford vehicles are made in the U.S., that ripple effect includes american part supplier's, parts made by american workers, american designer's, american engineer's, american marketing firms, etc. Adding all those people into the equation. And the numerous charities that Ford donates to, that benefit americans.
As for the competition that might have a few U.S. factories, it surely won't compare to the amount that Ford has in total. Not to mention, some of their vehicles are built in their home countries, and exported.
Some vehicles need to be made in other countries, because of their lower wages. For a Focus to become as profitable as it is, Mexico is the best place to assemble them. VW even build's some of their models in Mexico for the same reason.
The United Auto Worker also plays a part. The Focus could be built in the U.S., but because of union demands, it would be unprofitable to do so. Even now that Ford wishes to bring over the Brazil built Fusion, they are already having a canniption over. So that can also play a part on vehicle development as well.
I moved from a mountaineer to an aviator and one of my only gripes is that the third row does not go flat - so it is a little bit harder to transport large items that are flat. However, I have the 2nd row captain chairs and this is a large part of that - and not such a big issue if you get the aviator with second row bench seats. I like the aviator because it actually goes into all public garages (i.e. heightwise - naviagator is too tall for older garages in Hawaii). On the third row not going flat though, I do transport a lot of stuff and have never had a problem getting anything in the back - though groceries do tend to roll toward the door.
May sales figure show 2793 Aviator's were sold, an increase of 400 units over last month. I wonder if the auto journalists are still writting the obituary for this vehicle.
Mountaineer is 4249 for May, compared to 3451 for May of last year. For Navi it's 4087 for May, 1057 for May of last year and increase of 169% over last year's figures.
Finally got to sit in one this weekend. Son in backseat sleeping so no test drive, hopefully soon though. Was hoping there would be more leg room in back seats. I would rather do without the 3rd row and have adjustable 2nd row seating for more room. Wish that was an option.
Well, that's one of the reasons I'm in the Navigator, not the Aviator, but we do own a Mountaineer, basically the same dimensions as the Aviator, and the back seat is comfy, if not spacious. Hellovalot more room than a Grand Marquis back seat, IMO. (Don't have the measurements on hand, just going from ride experience in rentals). I'm not aware of another mid-sized SUV that has significantly more rear seat legroom....
Anyone know when some better car mats will be available for the Aviator? I was hoping to get some catchall mats. I heard these are real effective. We have a 4x2 luxury Aviator with light parchment int. with rear bench seat and I know it won't last clean with my two little ones.
That is something that has irked me lately, some of my favorite vehicles have either a beige, or black interior. Beige shows all the dirt. While black shows all the white fuzzballs, blond hairs, and can look too dark. I've always had grey, but that seems to be hard to come by on some vehicles.
and both are extreme too! The "tan" I have is so light, some people call it white, and I'm constantly touching up the upholstery in it. I can see it will need detailing frequently. OTOH, the black offered is depressingly black, and unacceptable, besides being horrendously hot here. Just a little more "tan" would be fine, or a medium grey would be good. I'm sure the 04 will have more interior options. Probably didn't have time to develop more shades to get this out in time.
I just got back from the LM dealer and he let me look through the '04 ordering guide. Green and Gold Ash are gone, Pearl BLue and French Silk (think light gold) are in. Dove (Gray) has been added as an interior color. The new role control added to Advance Trac is coming later (where have we heard that one before). The Navigator has it at Job 1. The tire pressure monitor is standard, and the dealer can now upgrade the radio to Sirrus capability.
Those are the only changes listed in the guide, no price info yet. Of course the change I really wanted, the self dimming mirror, that is standard on every damn Ford/LM up scale product and all the competition is still not available on the Aviator, unless of course you are willing to pay for the DVD nav system.
This is really an enigma to me, and along with the manual seat backs, just shows how little the product guys listen to the customers and the press. I know I am whining a little, but the mirror has become an obstacle to me buying.
Does anyone know if the wiring is in place and the mirror from the DVD package can just be purchased and added later?
I absolutely agree on the mirror & seat backs. The seat backs were part of my major whine about my former Navigator, had the manual seat backs too. But that has been corrected on my 03. The dimming mirror is unbelievable though. I don't get it. You can probably get it on a Focus! I will try to get ANT's attention - he may have some info on that.....
Here's the thinking about the manual seatback adjusters.... "How many times do you really alter your lumbar support?" Numerous cars have it manual, while having the other seat features powered. Therefore, Ford sees it as a "No biggy".
The self dimming mirror, I totally agree it's idiotic not to offer it. Actually you can find a much better unit, aftermarket. Look at some of the automobile applications, and in the rear advertisement section...The part most of us skip that has car seat covers, real wood trim, etc. IN there is one for a self dimming mirror, which even has a compass built in. I've used this type before on other Ford vehicles that never offered the self dimming feature, and has worked great.
I live in Miami and I just look at the sun to know where i'm headed, being it's all grid pattern streets, but I opted for the "compass" for those types I travel to other nearby cities which have an irratic road system layout.
But I totally agree, these are the "tiny" things that can really irritate someone. Luckily I was able to find a solution for one of them. But this is a cost cutting effort, rudely applied to the WRONG vehicle. Personally, I believe if someone is paying for a luxury vehicle, then go all out and offer the toys, or group them in packages, BUT packages also add complexity, which adds cost. So if many of you have noticed, Ford packages/groups have been streamlined considerably through out the past couple of years.
Edmunds I believe has the listed/option prices of the '04 Aviator, so you can take a look there at how the items and options were switches. Same for the '04 LS should be up as well.
2003 was a very short model run for certain Lincoln and Ford vehicles..... BUT this is a very GOOD thing though :-) It gives us a "HINT" that other products are coming down the pipe earlier than expected........
The Aviator sold 2,800 units in May. Whether or not something is a disappointment depends on the criteria and who you are talking to. Since the Aviator is an Explorer derivative with most likely high gross margin, it is probably profitable to sell a limited number of units per year. Cadillac sells fewer Escalade EXT and ESV's, for example, but like the Aviator, they are both derivatives of Chevy's. (I always thought the EXT was a crazy concept, but they sell 10,000/year of them). OTOH, if Lincoln expected to sell 40,000/year, then the vehicle is a disappointment.
The Aviator looks to me to be pretty much a mini-Navigator. If you're shelling out for a luxury vehicle, why not just get the Navigator instead? That could be the crux of Lincoln's problem.
Cadillac as elected to go the crossover route with their mid-SUV entry, and that is where the competition mostly also is. It's really a whole other class of vehicle. (Caddy is projecting 40K SRX sales, so they really are setting the bar high on this one). I keep hearing that Lincoln is planning to introduce 3 new cars in the next few years, at least some of which are to be based on the Mazda6 platform. Does anybody have any hard data on what Lincoln really plans to do? I can't really find much, but I have read that one of these new vehicles is pretty much a crossove type SUV, which might indeed mean the Aviator has a limited lifespan.
The three Lincoln vehicles will be a Mazda6 derivative sedan with AWD, a sport ute, and a bastardized cross-over (think NaviCross concept).
The projected goal for Aviator sales is 25-30K, if we take the total of average growth seen in the past 2 months, apply it to 2800, then 3200, then 3600 and level on 3600 as an average, then multiply it by the reminaing months, those figures are easily attainable.
The reason some people may not want a Navigator over an Aviator, is because it's size is too big for some. That's the reason the Explorer still sells far more than the Expedition, even if price wise, some Expeditions can be had for Explorer prices. Some people have no desire for something that big and bulky, when their primary needs of an SUV are met with a midsize such as an Aviator.
As for it's lifespan, from documents I've read stated 2007-2008 were it's final years, to be replaced/having a vehicle phased in, that was unibody/car based. Because of project changes in trends, people buying habits, etc. The vehicle at that time will lose customer's over car-based offerings within Ford's line ups, therefore they'll plan to retire it at that time. Of course, THIS can vary if their prediction was incorrect. It could be pushed to 2010 from what I read.
Ford's rationing over offering a vehicle that LOOKS the same, is mainly to please those people who wanted a Navi, but didn't like it's porportions.
I continue to be amazed at how people seem to think the Aviator is on life support already. At $50,000 a copy, they're not likely to "fly off the lot" like Sables..... Or maybe it's that damn self dimming mirror again?
I'm still perturbed at the late availability of the AdvanceTrac system. I dislike when Ford phases in such extras later through the model year. In fact, it was never available for '03 Aviator if you come to think about it.
I'm going to try and find out when it'll the Advancetrac system will be available....
Thanks for the info. I appreciate it. Twill be interesting to see how these Mazda derivatives fare in the market. Ford has explicitly said that its goal for Lincoln is to leverage more closely with other product lines within the Ford family. I hope it works out for them. Right now Lincoln seems completely adrift. The only decent car offering they have is the LS (the Town Car is a glorified taxi). Three new cars in the lineup are very much needed, assuming they are good ones of course.
Even at the current sales rate, the Aviator is likely making good profits for Ford and could be sustained indefinitely. Personally, I'm not a big fan of super high volumes for a luxury brand anyway.
Hey guys, the Aviator is doing well, the buff books love it, introductory sales are solid, its gotten a lot of attention (there have been more posts to the Aviator forum than all the posts to the Expedition forum since day one). Lets not worry about Aviator. It will do fine, getting lots of conquest sales for young Bill.
Why buy an Aviator when you are almost into a Navigator?, someone asked. Believe it or not, some people don't have either the personal insecurities that would incline them to get behind the wheel of what the Navigator represents or the desire to emulate what could be charitably called the conspicuous consumption crowd (in the meantime that crowd has moved on to the Cadilac Escalade. For the urban types, Navigator was over last year).
my explorer has a 'self dimming mirror'. it took me while to figure out that my parking badge was blocking the dimming sensor, so the mirror was always dark.
2024 Ford F-150 STX, 2023 Ford Explorer ST, 91 Mustang GT vert
Issue with Lincoln has been, everytime a new manager has entered to take control of it's product, and where it's headed, there's been some clash or drama and they soon leave. Hence, they've never been able to have a decent game plan till now. It's not the game plan SOME wish Lincoln would have, but at this time it's the most productive, easiest to carry out, with minimal investment.
The Aviator itself was never ment to be a high volume product, yet many auto journalists have written it's demise because they expect 100K+ sales of anything from the Big3.
Personally, I too agree that luxury vehicles shouldn't be high volume products. A decade back, owning a BMW or MB was considered the pinnacle of auto ownership. Now such vehicles are so common and seen at almost every stop-light (at least here in Miami, the poorest of largest cities in the U.S. according to the lastest survey of rich cities) that they distract from their overall cache.
Jaguar itself has been diluted with the X-type, yet still ranks higher overall over MB and BWM which have been reaching into the $25K price points. The next X-type will go a bit up in price points, and will no longer try to reach as low, since they are concerned over not being diluted.
Here's an interesting fact: Which is the top selling "REAL" luxury brand? Lincoln...
How was this research conducted? Well Luxury defined as any vehicle where it's transaction price is the price point of $40K, and above. Lincoln had 96% of it's sales, above the $40K pricepoint. While the majority of other automaker's count on their lower models C-class, 3-Series, Es300, Rx300, for the majority of their sales.
The one with the lowest "real" luxury sales? Acura. The majority of their vehicles are priced under $40K, and doesn't fall onto the segment of "luxury" as defined by the $40K pricepoint.
I believe Cadillac was in 2nd place defined by this report. Not sure.....
I have the advance trac on my Aviator that I picked up in May( from which I had ordered in March) It also has the self dimming mirror affiliated with the dvd nav.
The lumbar support is power, but as you know the seat back is not. Is should be, as the self dimming mirror should be standard. I d also like the compass in the mirror as it is in my wife s LS, as it is difficult for me to see the compass in the aviator on the instrument panel. The steering wheel should telescope also. The rear seats could be heated. They could also have a fore/ aft adjustment. But the rears seats recline slightly which is nice.But all that being said, It is a great ride. Any vehicle has some compromises. Whether it be price, ride, power, gas mileage, etc. I couldnt be more pleased with my Aviator.
The Navigator is too large for my garage. It is also a lot more expensive(10K) and in my mind not competition with the Aviator as the two vehicles are in two different categories of price and size. So I don t see the point of saying why don t you just get a Navigator and bypass the Aviator. If I had a larger garage and the willingness to spend more money, the Navigator would be an option for me, however one more issue comes to mind is parking in urban areas can be a problem with it s added size. I see the Escalade and the Navigator as competition to each other.
I'm researching the Aviator for my sister in-law. She wants to replace her GMC Suburban with something a little smaller. She did lease a Navigator about 4 years ago, so she knows the Lincoln features.
I've been reading this forum for the past couple of days and see no thread - or even a separate message board - for problems, unlike other vehicles (check out the Trailblazer board sometime!)
Thanks for any light you can help me shed for her.
As far as I know, and have read, there's really no quality issue on the Aviator, nor common complaint pertaining to realiability/component failure, etc. You could try doing a search for "Aviator" at http://www.flatratetech.com and see if anything comes up. Numerous frustrated costumer's visit that site of help and tips, if there's an issue to be found, I'm sure it would be spoken about on that site.
I see that you had ordered your aviator in March and got it in May? I just ordered mine May 19th. Will it really take 2 months to get since the final orders for the 03's was May 30th? I hope not. I just found out about the new options for the 04's like the Advancetrac on the 2wd, which is what I really wanted. Instead, I had to settle for the limited slip. Does the nav system work well? I got that too.
I ordered it at the end of march and it came in the beginning of may..all in all i think about six weeks but i wound up picking it up two weeks after it came in.
what do you mean settling for the limited slip..the advance trac is available
the navigation is very nice. it is quite acurate.. it uses the satellites..plus there are sensors on the wheels that monitor your last direction and how far you have travelled so in case the sateliite is not being picked up..it continues to be quite accurate as it estimates where you went
the navigation unit that contains the dvd is in the rear cargo system area on the passenger side in the tailgate area
i havent used all the functions like points of interests or the the voice commands but i have used it for a out of state trip and it worked very very well. its colorful and nice to look at.
it is easy to use.
it took into consideration a no left turn sign on a very local road which impressed me as it rerouted me as to not break the traffic regulation.
getting back to the advance trac..how does the o3 advance trac differ from the o4??
the power, the ride the steering and handling are very impressive i look for excuses to drive it. i cant imagine anyone not liking it.
The difference in Advance Trac from '03 to '04 is that they will add a "Role Stability" feature. I assume it is like the Volvo XC-90's in that it will greatly reduce the chances of rolling in an emergency situation.
It will come standard in the '04 Navigator and will be a late arrival on the '04 Aviator.
ANT14,
Thanks for all the great information, I did find an excellent after marker self dimming mirror (<$130.00) that fits the Ford "mirror button". Now if I can find switched +12v in the overhead console, I should be in business. I will let you know how it turns out.
We will probably order a Dark Pearl Blue Aviator from just the color chip very soon, still trying to decide on Gray or Parchment inside.
Thanks for the info. I did alot of checking with the dealership and my cousin at Ford and they told me that the 2wd did not come with Advanctrac only the Awd in the 03's.
Now for 04, I understand that the 2wd has an available Advancetrac w/anti roll option. I would have rather had that but I guess the limited slip will have to do. I didn't go for the Awd due to cost and I will not need it much where I live.
yes..the anti roll feature would have been nice..i like safety features. I hope you get your Aviator soon Ghengsic. another feature I would like to see is putting the parking brake someone else...
so..my suggestions are as follows
telescoping steering wheel heated rear seats auto dimming mirror power seat backs in front fore aft adjustment rear bucket seats compas in mirror not dashboard
I'm glad that you are speaking up about recommended changes. Unfortunately, I have not yet had the luxury to suggest what changes I would like but I hope soon. I'm so thankful for all of the discussions b/c they have really made me feel comfortable about my purchase. Thanks again.
I wish I could shed some light on those suggestions, but the closest the Aviator might see some of them, would be in about 2 years when the mid-cycle revision is implemented. I have no information pertaining to that just yet, nor it's the type of information I would be able to "gather". So the following is just educated guesses, NOT information I happened to stumble on.
Telescopic Steering wheel COULD be implemented. Heated rear seats, COULD be implemented, but the Navigator would have to take the lead on that role. So expect to see it there, before the Aviator, and that's about a 25% chance such feature is implemented (I'm taking other senario's into consideration).
Power seat-backs. That I don't see them implementing anytime soon. Mainly because the number of Aviator's sold, do not justify them placing a part on a limited number of vehicle. Hence, if the Explorer has it, then maybe the Aviator would. But it would be uncommon to see that senario, reversed. Personally, having had cars with that feature, I lack patience holding the button and waiting for the seatback to fold backwards. I find the simple lever much quicker to execute.
Sidenote: Visteon, the supplier of seats for Ford for numerous years, has by far the highest satisfaction scores on reliability. I wasn't even AWARE such a survey, or study even exsisted till I read it. Ironic....
The suggestions were just that...suggestions...and more or less minutia...on my part...the interior is exceptional in appearance for a suv the driving dynamics are excellent...and the exterior styling is bold..yet it is neutral..in that it would be difficult to offend anyone..or excite anyone either..
so overall...my dream vehicle...i remember when the new explorer came out..i wished it had the gear shift on the center console..and real wood trim on the interior...i wanted a dvd navigation..i wanted a rear entertainment system i wanted the antenna in the glass...
i wanted to buy American...
the aviator has it all...for me...
when u take in consideration the 0 % financing..and ability to purchase at invoice.. it turns out to be a decent deal.
I can accept everything you said, ANT, but I still have one question. My Mountaineer has a auto-dimming mirror......so where's the big reach to put that in the Aviator?
It could be a supplier issue, not being able to offer enough to fullfill the needs of all 3 vehicles, or simply, it could be the bean counters as well. There's one particular bean counter that needs to be rid off, I'm just not mentioning any names. But when it happens (I'm sensing within the next year), You will notice my happiness.
Comments
I think the vehicle has a lot of positive things going for it, and I too,would like to accent the positive. I have driven both the 2WD and the AWD versions, and the vehicle performs admirably...especially in the 2WD version. This is the one I plan to get, since I do very little (read NONE) 4 wheeling.
Yes, it IS a Ford product, but some of us are partial to Fords.... they are not too bad. I think putting in power seatbacks and having a better way of operating the tilt steering (instead of the mickey-mouse way it is done now), would make things better. That adjustment should be easier, and the range of movement should be increased significantly.
Lincoln depreciation should be considered as well, as they are known to be quite "soft" as compared to foreign makes. It is all in perspective, but that "perspective" can cost an owner quite a bit in the long run. Domestic models like Lincoln and Cadillac start off high, but disporportionally depreciate compared to the others. I could wait a couple years until it depreciates, but I would like it as new as possible. Hopefully I can get it at a very good price to mitigate the "sting".
Give the vehicle a chance. I think it will suprise a few of the "naysayers" as time goes by.
GSEREP1
the power seat back should definitely be added as well as the telescoping steering wheel.
heated rear seats could be an option.
otherwise the vehicle is perfect in my estimation.
drives like a rocket
i ve driven most..including the volvo.the mercedes..the pacifica the acura the bmw...the escalade has nicer seats. but is too bulky.the volvo was too minvanish for my taste.and tight second row the lexus rear hatch back is rediculous but its interior is nicer than the aviator. the lexus ride is as good as the aviator and the lexus is better off road if that is what you are going to do with your fifty thousand vehcile.but they want sticker for the lexus and 5 per cent financing..this adds up to over ten thousand more for the lexus gx vs the aviator similarly equipped
the acura s fake wood irked me..as well as the minvan platform
the bmw is underpowered unless u go to the highest level.
i d recommend the awd on the aviator even if you do no 4 wheeling. it makes a big difference in the rain. I know this because my 96 explorer was in 2 wd as it once begin raining..and i lost traction on a turn. I could definitely feel the difference in the rain with the 4wd vs the 2 wd in my 96 explorer.
if the awd saves you from a dangerous situation one time it is worth it.
the rear bucket seats are awesome in the aviator.
the navigation and rear dvd are outstanding..the steering and handling are incredible..i could go on and on..
i got silver with parchment interior
navigation,rear entertainment, moon roof, advance trac and trailer tow for a few hundred less than invoice and 0 per cent for 60 months
i m happy with my deal
the acura is probably your best value..but its too bland for my tastes..plus i truely believe buying American whenever possible should be a factor in one s mind.
the land rover is the best off road that i tested. but i drive off road 0.l per cent of the time.
ps someone should actually give specifics of the depreciation of the vehicles. i ve always heard the lincolns and caddies depreciate more..but i dont think its that big a difference ..especially if you factor in paying near sticker and 5 per cent financing..on a 39 month lease the aviator residual is 49 per cent..the lexus gx was 52 per cent..not a heck of a difference in my mind.
Without getting too much into detail or off-topic, I'll use one of the analogies.
Let's take a Windstar and Sienna (previous version at that time) as examples both with the identical features, options, etc.
Compared the initial cost up front to purchase both vehicles, having to pay closer to window sticker with the Sienna. Sienna requires the pricier premium gas. Also took into consideration the cost of the most commonly changed parts on a vehicle. Brake pads, alternators, starters, others, etc. The cost of replacement parts depending on accidents, and threw that into the equation, as well as the overall insurance premium need be paid yearly. Then factored in the "trade-in value" of each vehicle, and their measured depreciation within their group and sales.
Conclusion: While the Sienna did hold up it's value and didn't depreciate as much, it's overall maintenence costs, and repair costs were more so than that of the Windstar. Therefore having the Windstar in serice during the 3 year duration was cheaper by $423 over the Sienna.
So how does this relate to the Aviator? Simply put, there's numerous other vehicles it can be compared to, performance and feature wise, but overall it's upkeep might be a hidden factor many other's fail to see, or research. It can be said that those spending $50K won't care much about depreciation and such, but it's just another factor to keep in mind.
i heard parts for the volvo are sometimes difficult..for example if in an accident..and the lease payments go on even though your vehicle might go out of service..for months
so there are many factors...
i m glad your article demonstrated that buying american can be a good economic decision.
i d be happy if more of us chose American whenever possible..
in your example..the American choice was 400 dollars less expensive...than the foreign choice
but i d like to think if even the foreign choice was 400 dollars cheaper over three years..the American consumer..would be wise enough to support the American economy...with purchasing American products..
i m sure now there will be posts about the ml and lexus being manufactured in the US and some fords are manufactured outside the US,
so if thats the case..then pick an American vehicle made in the US
if the American vehicles are shoddy in workmenship..then I dont propose buy American no matter what..
but if its close...as is the case nowadays..
then give the American the edge
case and point...the aviator vs the lexus gx 470
in my mind they are close..but...i like thinking someone got to work in St Louis because i purchased an aviator
and maybe some retired lady in wyoming was happy her ford stock went up in her retirment mutual fund because of my purchase..( sounds a bit grandiose..but if we all made a consious effort...think what a boost to the economy )
I wonder about the people driving foreign cars complaining they are unemployed...i hate to say this ..but DUH...
Patriotism and support of your fellow American needs to be fostered.
Example...You have Land Rover, an english (roots) company, which was owned by BMW (A German company), sold to Ford (An american company). Out of that marriage, we receive the BMW designed Range Rover. Money goes to at some point ends up at Ford U.S., which some of it goes to BMW for supplying it's engines. A deal that I believe will expire in 2-3 years, at that time Ford will implement their own engine.
But in the end, the money WILL go to the HQ company, that is Ford U.S... therefore, as much as we go around the circle, it still goes to an american company.
Or another example. I was visiting a friend at her job (school, she's a teacher) and one of the fellow teacher's was harping about her having to boycott French/German products, because of her personal belief's about those countries not supporting the U.S. in the Iraqi invation. She had put down another fellow teacher (friend) for buying a Nissan (owned by Renault, a french company).
I eloquently asked her what vehicle she owned. She stated a Ford Explorer. While it's not obvious at first, I pointed out her car had a german engine (the Cologne 4.0L) with a french transmission. And to immediatly turn the car in at the dealership, so she can complete her boycott. Obviously she was not amused considering everyone was laughing at her for her ignorance.
Then she reverts saying "Well I guess I should have bought an all american car, like such and such's Saturn L300" (my friends) To which I tell her "based on a German Opel Vectra platform, using a German 3.0L engine". She kept mentioning vehicles, and I kept frustrating her with stating where certain parts came from.
On the opposite spectrum, you have those that believe the opposite. I hear much, "Honda has been building cars in the U.S. for over 18 years, and they employ American workers, etc so I'm doing my part". But the money does eventually end up in Japan, any which way you look at it. Hence, Look for the HQ Company's location.
Considering we have much more manufacturer's building factories in the U.S., we are reaching a point where we can't really blame the American autoworker for shoddy workmanship. Camry's, Accord's are being built by the same American workers that are also building GM's, Ford, and BMW's.
So where does the fault lie? There's many steps taken from the process the vehicle is designed, to it's overall execution at the factor. With today's very complex vehicles, there's more chances for a mishap. The key is to keep the design simple, and most importantly, keep the factory efficient.
Ford is overhauling the majority of it's factories, and it's results are evident with latest quality and dependability results. The equipment, processes, manufacturing techniques are beginning to set standard's in the automotive industry and we will soon see it's results.
Keeping factories operating at their peak efficiency without over-capacity, building supplier parks within the compounds to ensure the parts are available as the vehicle proceeds down the assembling line, enables Ford to cut quite a bit of cost. Costs that can be later applied to vehicle development (new products), improved materials (as we will begin to see), refinement.
Competition always improves an automaker. And american manufacturer's were concentrating too much on profits from SUV/Trucks in the 90's to invest in their factories at that time. Now they have seen the light and understand they can't afford to lose market share, therefore quality/refinement, are becoming priorities... And the factories that allow them to execute these factors, are currently being upgraded.
The majority of Ford vehicles are made in the U.S., that ripple effect includes american part supplier's, parts made by american workers, american designer's, american engineer's, american marketing firms, etc. Adding all those people into the equation. And the numerous charities that Ford donates to, that benefit americans.
As for the competition that might have a few U.S. factories, it surely won't compare to the amount that Ford has in total. Not to mention, some of their vehicles are built in their home countries, and exported.
Some vehicles need to be made in other countries, because of their lower wages. For a Focus to become as profitable as it is, Mexico is the best place to assemble them. VW even build's some of their models in Mexico for the same reason.
The United Auto Worker also plays a part. The Focus could be built in the U.S., but because of union demands, it would be unprofitable to do so. Even now that Ford wishes to bring over the Brazil built Fusion, they are already having a canniption over. So that can also play a part on vehicle development as well.
http://media.ford.com/article_display.cfm?article_id=15498&ma- ke_id=trust
They are available at http://media.ford.com And it's usually displayed on the 2nd working day of the month.
I love it.......
driving an Aviator that was aired during the French Open?
Really runny!
Those are the only changes listed in the guide, no price info yet. Of course the change I really wanted, the self dimming mirror, that is standard on every damn Ford/LM up scale product and all the competition is still not available on the Aviator, unless of course you are willing to pay for the DVD nav system.
This is really an enigma to me, and along with the manual seat backs, just shows how little the product guys listen to the customers and the press. I know I am whining a little, but the mirror has become an obstacle to me buying.
Does anyone know if the wiring is in place and the mirror from the DVD package can just be purchased and added later?
Thanks
Here's the thinking about the manual seatback adjusters.... "How many times do you really alter your lumbar support?" Numerous cars have it manual, while having the other seat features powered. Therefore, Ford sees it as a "No biggy".
The self dimming mirror, I totally agree it's idiotic not to offer it. Actually you can find a much better unit, aftermarket. Look at some of the automobile applications, and in the rear advertisement section...The part most of us skip that has car seat covers, real wood trim, etc. IN there is one for a self dimming mirror, which even has a compass built in. I've used this type before on other Ford vehicles that never offered the self dimming feature, and has worked great.
I live in Miami and I just look at the sun to know where i'm headed, being it's all grid pattern streets, but I opted for the "compass" for those types I travel to other nearby cities which have an irratic road system layout.
But I totally agree, these are the "tiny" things that can really irritate someone. Luckily I was able to find a solution for one of them. But this is a cost cutting effort, rudely applied to the WRONG vehicle. Personally, I believe if someone is paying for a luxury vehicle, then go all out and offer the toys, or group them in packages, BUT packages also add complexity, which adds cost. So if many of you have noticed, Ford packages/groups have been streamlined considerably through out the past couple of years.
Edmunds I believe has the listed/option prices of the '04 Aviator, so you can take a look there at how the items and options were switches. Same for the '04 LS should be up as well.
2003 was a very short model run for certain Lincoln and Ford vehicles..... BUT this is a very GOOD thing though :-) It gives us a "HINT" that other products are coming down the pipe earlier than expected........
The Aviator looks to me to be pretty much a mini-Navigator. If you're shelling out for a luxury vehicle, why not just get the Navigator instead? That could be the crux of Lincoln's problem.
Cadillac as elected to go the crossover route with their mid-SUV entry, and that is where the competition mostly also is. It's really a whole other class of vehicle. (Caddy is projecting 40K SRX sales, so they really are setting the bar high on this one). I keep hearing that Lincoln is planning to introduce 3 new cars in the next few years, at least some of which are to be based on the Mazda6 platform. Does anybody have any hard data on what Lincoln really plans to do? I can't really find much, but I have read that one of these new vehicles is pretty much a crossove type SUV, which might indeed mean the Aviator has a limited lifespan.
The projected goal for Aviator sales is 25-30K, if we take the total of average growth seen in the past 2 months, apply it to 2800, then 3200, then 3600 and level on 3600 as an average, then multiply it by the reminaing months, those figures are easily attainable.
The reason some people may not want a Navigator over an Aviator, is because it's size is too big for some. That's the reason the Explorer still sells far more than the Expedition, even if price wise, some Expeditions can be had for Explorer prices. Some people have no desire for something that big and bulky, when their primary needs of an SUV are met with a midsize such as an Aviator.
As for it's lifespan, from documents I've read stated 2007-2008 were it's final years, to be replaced/having a vehicle phased in, that was unibody/car based. Because of project changes in trends, people buying habits, etc. The vehicle at that time will lose customer's over car-based offerings within Ford's line ups, therefore they'll plan to retire it at that time. Of course, THIS can vary if their prediction was incorrect. It could be pushed to 2010 from what I read.
Ford's rationing over offering a vehicle that LOOKS the same, is mainly to please those people who wanted a Navi, but didn't like it's porportions.
I'm going to try and find out when it'll the Advancetrac system will be available....
Even at the current sales rate, the Aviator is likely making good profits for Ford and could be sustained indefinitely. Personally, I'm not a big fan of super high volumes for a luxury brand anyway.
Why buy an Aviator when you are almost into a Navigator?, someone asked. Believe it or not, some people don't have either the personal insecurities that would incline them to get behind the wheel of what the Navigator represents or the desire to emulate what could be charitably called the conspicuous consumption crowd (in the meantime that crowd has moved on to the Cadilac Escalade. For the urban types, Navigator was over last year).
it took me while to figure out that my parking badge was blocking the dimming sensor, so the mirror was always dark.
The Aviator itself was never ment to be a high volume product, yet many auto journalists have written it's demise because they expect 100K+ sales of anything from the Big3.
Personally, I too agree that luxury vehicles shouldn't be high volume products. A decade back, owning a BMW or MB was considered the pinnacle of auto ownership. Now such vehicles are so common and seen at almost every stop-light (at least here in Miami, the poorest of largest cities in the U.S. according to the lastest survey of rich cities) that they distract from their overall cache.
Jaguar itself has been diluted with the X-type, yet still ranks higher overall over MB and BWM which have been reaching into the $25K price points. The next X-type will go a bit up in price points, and will no longer try to reach as low, since they are concerned over not being diluted.
Here's an interesting fact: Which is the top selling "REAL" luxury brand? Lincoln...
How was this research conducted? Well Luxury defined as any vehicle where it's transaction price is the price point of $40K, and above. Lincoln had 96% of it's sales, above the $40K pricepoint. While the majority of other automaker's count on their lower models C-class, 3-Series, Es300, Rx300, for the majority of their sales.
The one with the lowest "real" luxury sales? Acura. The majority of their vehicles are priced under $40K, and doesn't fall onto the segment of "luxury" as defined by the $40K pricepoint.
I believe Cadillac was in 2nd place defined by this report. Not sure.....
The lumbar support is power, but as you know the seat back is not. Is should be, as the self dimming mirror should be standard. I d also like the compass in the mirror as it is in my wife s LS, as it is difficult for me to see the compass in the aviator on the instrument panel. The steering wheel should telescope also. The rear seats could be heated. They could also have a fore/ aft adjustment. But the rears seats recline slightly which is nice.But all that being said, It is a great ride.
Any vehicle has some compromises. Whether it be price, ride, power, gas mileage, etc. I couldnt be more pleased with my Aviator.
The Navigator is too large for my garage. It is also a lot more expensive(10K) and in my mind not competition with the Aviator as the two vehicles are in two different categories of price and size. So I don t see the point of saying why don t you just get a Navigator and bypass the Aviator. If I had a larger garage and the willingness to spend more money, the Navigator would be an option for me, however one more issue comes to mind is parking in urban areas can be a problem with it s added size.
I see the Escalade and the Navigator as competition to each other.
I've been reading this forum for the past couple of days and see no thread - or even a separate message board - for problems, unlike other vehicles (check out the Trailblazer board sometime!)
Thanks for any light you can help me shed for her.
Deke
I ordered it at the end of march and it came in the beginning of may..all in all i think about six weeks but i wound up picking it up two weeks after it came in.
what do you mean settling for the limited slip..the advance trac is available
the navigation is very nice. it is quite acurate..
it uses the satellites..plus there are sensors on the wheels that monitor your last direction and how far you have travelled so in case the sateliite is not being picked up..it continues to be quite accurate as it estimates where you went
the navigation unit that contains the dvd is in the rear cargo system area on the passenger side in the tailgate area
i havent used all the functions like points of interests or the the voice commands but i have used it for a out of state trip and it worked very very well. its colorful and nice to look at.
it is easy to use.
it took into consideration a no left turn sign on a very local road which impressed me as it rerouted me as to not break the traffic regulation.
getting back to the advance trac..how does the o3 advance trac differ from the o4??
the power, the ride the steering and handling are very impressive i look for excuses to drive it. i cant imagine anyone not liking it.
It will come standard in the '04 Navigator and will be a late arrival on the '04 Aviator.
ANT14,
Thanks for all the great information, I did find an excellent after marker self dimming mirror (<$130.00) that fits the Ford "mirror button". Now if I can find switched +12v in the overhead console, I should be in business. I will let you know how it turns out.
We will probably order a Dark Pearl Blue Aviator from just the color chip very soon, still trying to decide on Gray or Parchment inside.
Now for 04, I understand that the 2wd has an available Advancetrac w/anti roll option. I would have rather had that but I guess the limited slip will have to do. I didn't go for the Awd due to cost and I will not need it much where I live.
so..my suggestions are as follows
telescoping steering wheel
heated rear seats
auto dimming mirror
power seat backs in front
fore aft adjustment rear bucket seats
compas in mirror not dashboard
Telescopic Steering wheel COULD be implemented. Heated rear seats, COULD be implemented, but the Navigator would have to take the lead on that role. So expect to see it there, before the Aviator, and that's about a 25% chance such feature is implemented (I'm taking other senario's into consideration).
Power seat-backs. That I don't see them implementing anytime soon. Mainly because the number of Aviator's sold, do not justify them placing a part on a limited number of vehicle. Hence, if the Explorer has it, then maybe the Aviator would. But it would be uncommon to see that senario, reversed. Personally, having had cars with that feature, I lack patience holding the button and waiting for the seatback to fold backwards. I find the simple lever much quicker to execute.
Sidenote: Visteon, the supplier of seats for Ford for numerous years, has by far the highest satisfaction scores on reliability. I wasn't even AWARE such a survey, or study even exsisted till I read it. Ironic....
so overall...my dream vehicle...i remember when the new explorer came out..i wished it had the gear shift on the center console..and real wood trim on the interior...i wanted a dvd navigation..i wanted a rear entertainment system
i wanted the antenna in the glass...
i wanted to buy American...
the aviator has it all...for me...
when u take in consideration the 0 % financing..and ability to purchase at invoice..
it turns out to be a decent deal.