I own a 2000 Accord V-6, which is included (with the TL) in a group of vehicles identified with faulty transmissions. I have not had any problems with mine (thankfully), but Honda extended my warranty on the transmission to 100,000 miles anyway. This is true of all the Accords and TL's manufactured during this time frame. I never complained, but a piece of paper came in the mail that had the extended warranty on it.
I don't know why anyone would accuse Honda of not doing the right thing by these problems. I thought them stepping up and offering the extended warranty to everyone said a lot about their commitment to customer satisfaction.
My Accord has 65,000 miles and has had very few problems. My 2002 CR-V now has 25,000 miles and no problems. I have had great experiences with Honda's and Acura's. For that reason I am looking to get a 2005 Pilot regardless of whether they state they have "fixed" these transmission issues. I believe they have and if it turns out to be false, then I believ Honda would step up and back up their product.
Just took my 2 year old Pilot w/ 50K miles in for the recall visit. Despite the doomsaying from the dealer for the past several months that my transmission would most likely need to be replaced because of my higher mileage and significant second gear snow driving, I was quite surprised when there was no problem... hmmm?
I have been considering selling my Pilot for a few months. This transmission issue is just another annoyance in a series of problems. I am still very happy with the Pilot, relative to my many prior Explorer experiences, but this is no Accord. I would prefer something that drives a bit more securely with less problems. I probably wouldn't even consider replacing it, but with the ridiculous resale value... why not move to something that spends less time in the shop and is more fun on the road!
I would look at the voluntary 100,000 mile extended warranty it a little differently than you, only because I expect Hondas and Acuras to last well past 100,000 miles with respect to major mechanical systems. I have a 1995 Nissan Maxima with 153,000 miles and it's still on its original clutch. The first repair of any kind was a water pump at 100,000+ miles. So, while I can appreciate that some would say that an extended warranty is good enough, I might agree if it were to 10 years and 150k miles. Especially since some makes with far lower quality ratings than Honda offer 100k mile powertrain warranties standard.
ssminton,
What kind of other problems have you had with your Pilot?
isellhondas,
For the record, when I bought my 2002 Honda S2000, I had heard that the 2000 and 2001 models had a grinding problem in the 1-2 gears. The sales manager faxed me an article on the issue and a technical bulletin from Honda explaining what specifically they did to strengthen the gears and put in a connical synchro to prevent grinding in the new 2002 transmission. The sales manager had one of his service managers call me to anwswer any further questions I had. I went ahead with my purchase, fully satisfied that the issue was resolved, and very pleased with the professional response to my questions by the dealership. I never had a problem and loved the car right up to the day I traded it for my TL.
That same Honda service manager's answer to the Pilot transmission issue is his personal recommendation to wait until the 2005 model and see if Honda doesn't completely replace it with a different design. He himself has not been pleased with the slowness to respond with a new design that eliminates the potential problems altogether. He rates the manner in which Honda handled the S2000 issue an "A", the Pilot/Accord/Odyssey a "C".
Those who have already bought one,need not concern themselves and please refrain from entering this debate !!
so you don't want to hear from all of the people that have no problems with their transmissions? Well now there's a good way to create a one-sided argument.
although i own one, i'm going to answer your question anyway - the answer is basically all of the above. Just read the press releases from Honda. Honda corporate, Honda engineers, and the Honda mechanics at isell's shop say its fixed. There's nothing more that needs to be added. Once again, and for the final time, whether you trust all that or not is entirely up to the individual.
Oh, and by the way, the personal attacks on isell really don't help you strengthen your position. Just a personal tip from me to you. Good luck in whatever you decide. That's enough of this convo.
'11 GMC Sierra 1500; '98 Alfa 156 2.0TS; '08 Maser QP; '67 Coronet R/T; '13 Fiat 500c; '20 S90 T6; '22 MB Sprinter 2500 4x4 diesel; '97 Suzuki R Wagon; '96 Opel Astra; '11 Mini Cooper S
This doesn't need to be further escalated. But since you seem to be aware of "press releases" or other information that indicate the automatic transmission problems with the Pilot and other Honda models have been fixed at the source, I'd ask that you please post a source.
I've searched the web and spoken with my Honda dealer and I know of no such information. The only press releases I have read have acknowledged a problem and indicated that as part of the recall, Honda would check, repair and replace, if necessary, the affected transmissions. But I have not seen any official information that Honda has changed the design or done anything else to correct the problem at its source. As far as I have been able to determine, the transmission in a 2004 Pilot sitting on the lot today is exactly the same one that is the subject of the recall. My service manager believes that to be the case, as well.
I may have misspoken earlier. This isn't really a matter of "trust", whereby I'm refuting something in writing by Honda. It's a matter of sketchy information, at best. If I saw a written press release or other official documentation from Honda that indicated "Pilots and oher models produced after 'x' date have had transmission design or other modifications to correct the source of transmission failure", this would be a dead issue for me..
I don't condone personal attacks on isellhondas. But I think we are all frustrated on these occassions when we simply want the facts and can't seem to get a straight answer. Fill in the "x" above with an official source and we can all move on.
P.S. Or you can tell me to pound salt. I'm not going to replace our SUV until 2005 now anyway and I would certainly hope this would be a moot issue by then. I was just raising it as something for those considering a 2004 to be aware of.
All cars have problems. I will certainly agree that my Explorers and Mountaineer spent their fair share at the dealership. With the Pilot, I took an amenities and driving comfort/performance drop in return for hassle free ownership. I miss the amenities, comfort, driving performance. If I'm going to be going to the dealer regularly, I might as well be more satisfied with the car. For someone looking for relative reliability, utility, lots of seating, AWD, and value... the Pilot is still probably the best choice.
Problems over the past two years: - Alignment issues. - B-pillar rattle/squeak in warmer weather. - Throttle valve issues which has resulted the Pilot "driving itself" twice. - Interior panel fit. I believe this was a "1st off the factory line" problem. Within the first 3 months, every interior panel had to be re-seated and a few repaired since. - Steering wheel vibrations. - Rear lift gate hydroulics weak. - Fuel mileage inconsistencies. Understand that my Pilot has 50K miles. So to experience some maintenance issues with a car of this age is not uncommon. Most of the problems occurred well before 36K miles. As I said above, I took comfort hits for Honda reliability. This combined with the vehicle "float" on back road driving is leaning me towards replacement.
Due to my significant two-lane-road driving, I am considering a wagon as a replacement. I drove the 2005 Outback (3.0 LLBean & 2.5XT Turbo) yesterday. These are a phenomenal new cars. With the Pilot still "hot" and great resale value, I plan to put it on the market and see what happens. If it sells, I'll go with something new. If not, I'll stick with it. As much as I have complaints, it is not a "bad" car, I just expected more.
Now, how you perceived this fix is all upon you. Personally, I consider a modification to the lubrication system a redesign. In my opinion, a "quick fix" would be changing the fluid every 10K miles.
And as far as "fixing it at the source," I have read somewhere that all new transmissions coming off the line have this lubrication redesign already done. I can't prove that, and really don't care to. First of all, it doesn't matter. If its not done at the factory, it will need to be done at the dealership. So it will be done. Second of all, it would be very cost ineffective for Honda to pay all the dealers to do it rather than do it themselves at the factory, so I will assume that, based on the simplest business sense, it is done at the factory now. And as far as those on the lot? Depends on their build date.
'11 GMC Sierra 1500; '98 Alfa 156 2.0TS; '08 Maser QP; '67 Coronet R/T; '13 Fiat 500c; '20 S90 T6; '22 MB Sprinter 2500 4x4 diesel; '97 Suzuki R Wagon; '96 Opel Astra; '11 Mini Cooper S
When this was announced, we had to do a VIN number check of everything in our inventory, As usual, we didn't even have any Pilots to inspect but we did have a bunch of Odysseys.
As I recall, we had two or three Odysseys that needed the update kit.
It's not the enormous deal some would make this out to be. As I understand it, very few vehicles would ever have a problem with or without the update.
And, the update isn't the "band-aid" someone here called it. It's a fix as preventative maintenance.
I am reaasonably satisfied. I'm not sure how my google searches missed this press release, but they did.
This issue does appear to be a different problem than that which affected the 5-speed automatics in the 2002/2003 TL, since those models aren't mentioned.
I wonder why Acura chose to replace the MDX transmission for 2003, but Honda left it in the Odyssey / Pilot? In any event, it looks like late midel 2004 Pilots are O.K.. Again, thanks for the information.
ssminton,
Thanks for your summary of your 50k Pilot experience. I would say that your list of problems is far more than I would expect from Honda. I bought a newly redesinged 1995 Maxima in late 1994 and had virtually no repairs or "extra" maintenance for 7 years and 100k+ miles. Other than a broken roof latch that was quickly repaired, my Honda S2000 had nothing but 4 oil changes in 2.5 years and 18,000 miles.
Fortunately for you, the Pilot has held its value very well. If amenities, comfort and handling is high on your list, you might also want to consider the Volvo XC90 2.5. They are more expensive than the Pilot or Subarus, but if you have the ability, they qualify for the accelerated business tax write-off with the 3rd seat package (GVW of 6,000+ lbs). That puts an XC90 at about $3,000 less expensive than a Pilot for us, after tax. The seating comfort in the XC90 is the best of any SUV, IMO and the interior is of very nice quality. The reliability of 2003's was poor, but appears to have improved significantly for 2004.
The recall apparently addresses a different issue than the one that caused a higher-than-normal failure rate in some older TL's, CL's, Accord V-6's, etc. I think the recall addresses second gear issues. Whereas the previous problem had to do with the third gear clutch pack. Which, presumably (?) has been fixed in the newer/all Pilots.
Most of the 01-02 MDX transmission failures reported on various message boards cite the problem as the third gear clutch pack. This is the same issue that affected the aforementioned TL's, CL's.
There is a massive 1,000+ page report somewhere on the NHTSA web site. I lost the URL for it, might take some work to find it again. There was an attempt at a summary of the report on another web site, but Townhall rules prevent me from posting the link to it.
There are items in it that seem to indicate that there was a problem in the surface of the third gear clutch disk, perhaps resulting from the transfer of manufacturer of the part from Japan to the U.S. and subsequent retransfer within the U.S. There is discussion that improving the U.S. manufacturing process may address the issue.
The problem is that if one is looking for problems, they can read the NHTSA report one way, while someone who is optimistic will read it another way.
Ultimately, I think what has disappointed some Honda/Acura owners is that while no one can expect their vehicles to be perfect, there have been some significant, uncharacteristic, and documented quality issues in recent Honda/Acura vehicles. While I don't think everyone expects perfection, I don't think Honda/Acura fans expect that the vehicles have issues with the transmission, safety issues with the front airbags, etc. It's expected that Honda/Acura is WAY better than the "lesser brands." And that problems are minor and not major. That's what has helped earn Honda its reputation, high resale value, and higher selling prices.
Here are some excerpts from the NHTSA report, as summarized on the unmentionable site.
?Changes in Manufacture of Third Clutch Pack?
Third clutch pack manufacturing (assembling location of FCC was changed from Japan to the US in April 2001).
=================================
Changes in parts/manufacturing process related to third clutch pack thereafter:
* Oct 2001: Localization of PGH in the US started Localization of GUIDE COMP in the US started * DISK bonding process transferred from FCC-Indiana to FCC-North Carolina in December 2001 (PGH disk bonding process is scheduled to be transferred in late Feb. 2002)
No other changes in M/L, material, equipment, etc since HTM launched upon mass production in April 2000.
* The transfer of the third clutch pack manufacture (assembly) to the US factory and the beginning of the increasing tendency of occurrence synchronized with each other.
...
- By replacement of sanding belt, surface roughness will be better than the present level. - Unstable surface roughness immediately after replacement of sanding belt can be solved by re-lapping and as a consequence, the overall level is further raised.
* Replacement of sanding belt can bring about an improvement in surface roughness of US-made clutch plate to the extent that it is comparable to the surface roughness of Japanese-made clutch plate.
...
* In the high Q/A mode (50-cycle durability test, the amount of facing wear of US-made clutch plate was larger [greater] and more influenced by clutch plate surface roughness than that of Japanese-made clutch plate.
...
* The amount of facing wear of US-made clutch plate was larger and more influenced by clutch roughness than that of the Japanese-made clutch plate. However, even the Japanese-made clutch plate, which was good in surface roughness, met with considerable amount of facing wear when tested in the ?tricky? full-throttle kickdown shift/upshift repeat mode
...
CL-S third clutch problem arose in the market is summarized as follows:
1. High Q/A at low temperature and poor surface roughness of clutch plate combine together to accelerate wear of facing
2. Wear of facing is increased in case of repetition of kickdown shift/upshift.
3. Clutch clearance is increased, and engine flares up.
Eventually the third clutch is burned.
This problem should be solved by restraining initial wear through (1) improvement in surface roughness of clutch place and (2) review of high Q/A on 2-3 upshift at low temperature? and by ?(3) keeping clutch plate temperature from rising when kickdown shift/upshift is repeated.?
P988:
?5-2 down-shift occurrence ratio = 84/681,103=0.01%?
Note: total warranty claims = 9,234; total third clutch failures = 5375
Question: How many Pilot transmissions are known to have failed? Anyone report one on this board?
With the exception of some early Pilot's, the list of so called problems that I have seen are nothing more than minor annoyances - and I don't know of any first year vehicles that didn't have a few, including my wife's Endeavor. My 2003 has had a couple of minor annoyances in 30K mile, but nothing that couldn't wait until it went in for a scheduled service. Moving into the 2004 model year, there seems to be fewer issues and annoyances reported.
gbd21 – although you claim to be in the market for a Pilot, I find your posts extremely slanted towards the negative for someone who is interested in buying one and has been a member for less than four weeks. How could you possibly determine the tune of isellhondas songs (post # 5773) from the 5 posts he's made since you joined? Do you have another alias? I have seen all you Honda posts since you joined and it would appear you either have an agenda or something personal against Honda and/or the dealer network. Your posts are not insightful nor do they provide readers any real value - JMHO, of course.
I noticed on the Honda Pilot Owners: Accessories & Modifications board that you installed your own running boards or side steps. I am planning to install my own side steps and was wondering how hard it is to remove the clips under the pilot to install the side steps. Do you really need the "clip remover" tool? I am writing on this board since no one has responded to this question in the "accessories & modification" board. If anyone has experience with this, please reply. Thanks.
How many Pilot transmissions are known to have failed? Anyone report one on this board?
I think that only Honda knows the actual number. Hopefully it's very low. I have seen Pilot transmission failure reports on another system dedicated to the Pilot. However, I doubt if the # of incidents reported there is statistically relevant.
Hello tom10. The installation of the running boards on my Pilot was quite easy. Took me about an hour and 30 minutes to complete. You don't need a special tool to remove the clips. I believe I used a pair of needle nose pliers to remove them. If it was difficult, I would have remembered. The only thing the stands out from the installation was the amount of screws involved!
well, according to that press release, at the time of the release, there were 10 confirmed failures in all of Canada and the U.S. Just a fraction of one percent.
'11 GMC Sierra 1500; '98 Alfa 156 2.0TS; '08 Maser QP; '67 Coronet R/T; '13 Fiat 500c; '20 S90 T6; '22 MB Sprinter 2500 4x4 diesel; '97 Suzuki R Wagon; '96 Opel Astra; '11 Mini Cooper S
Didn't the press release only address failures specific to that particular issue? It wouldn't necessary count failures attributable to other causes, if that does indeed exist.
There may have been only 10 failures of that type, but you figure that if not for the recall, that number could have grown significantly as the transmissions aged.
gbd21 said: "I am capable of reading backdated posts even if I just joined only few weeks ago. And may I ask which dealership do YOU work for??" If you are so capable of reading backdated posts, than may I suggest you do so for mine. You will then realize your "what dealership do you work for" question was silly.
I had heard on a local news channel here in philly about there being a chance of a fire after an oil change on 2002-2003 Pilots. Anyone else here experience or hear about this?
Thanks Kyle not an owner but my parents bought a 2003 pilot ex
are you sure you heard right? This has been discussed in relation to the CRV (has to do with the person changing the oil failing to remove the original rubber gasket, winding up with 2 gaskets total on there, and "voila" you got yerself an oil leak that ignites on the exhaust manifold), but I have not heard of any such thing on the Pilot.
EDIT - D'oh! Steve beat me to it! But you can keep credit for that pun all to yerself, Steve.
'11 GMC Sierra 1500; '98 Alfa 156 2.0TS; '08 Maser QP; '67 Coronet R/T; '13 Fiat 500c; '20 S90 T6; '22 MB Sprinter 2500 4x4 diesel; '97 Suzuki R Wagon; '96 Opel Astra; '11 Mini Cooper S
Had a plan to get a pilot 2005, but the huge trans recall (including my 03 accord lx v6) and the "CR-V on fire" thing are scary to me. Now I might get a highlander instead.
It appears to me Honda can never get the V6 trans right. As far as I remember, they have recalled V6 trans many times before.
We absolutely love our Pilot. We have a gen 2 CRV and a Pilot, the vehicle of choice on the weekend is the Pilot. 8000 miles in 4 months and not 1 issue, no recalls, (we've had 2 on the CRV). We're also very happry with the gas mileage, consistently 20-22.
I don't believe they've recalled the transmission used in their V6's "many times before." There's only, technically, two recalls I know of, both for the same issue but covering different vehicles (one for specific Pilot/MDX/Odyssey models, the other for the sedans/coupes). It's really one recall but it's been packaged as two.
OTOH, the basic design has experienced issues in vehicles dating back several years. This includes the issues in some older units in Honda sedans/coupes that had their transmission warranties extended to 100k miles, as well as the recall affecting more recent models.
If you look at it optimistically, Honda has fixed all the issues with the tranmissions. And the recall is the final fix and now they're fine.
If you look at it pessimistically, Honda hasn't fixed all the issues yet. A lot of folks thought the trannies were fine after the problems that caused the transmission warranty extension a couple of years ago, but then this year the recalls hit.
isellhondas - someone may have asked this before but I have a question: I bought by '04 EXL-RES in Dec 2003, and I have received the note on Ownerslink about the transmission recall, and my VIN falls toward the end of the '04 VIN range. However, when I called my dealer and American Honda customer support line, they told me that my VIN is not part of the recall. And the dealer said they won't install the transmission kit if my VIN doesn't show as affected. Have you heard that even if a car falls within the VIN range, it may not be affected?
Any information on this would be helpful. I am losing sleep Thanks everyone!!
for the replies. I'm glad to see that potential fire hazard doesn't apply to Pilots. I am a bit sorry to see the other problems that people have been having with their pilots. So far so good with my parents's pilot. I am going to link this board to my dad so he can keep up with the info. I will say the Honda my wife and I have now (98 Civic EX) has been the picture of the reputed Honda reliability. 83K and not a part replaced except wear items and only now getting a rattle or two.
I've been eyeing a Pilot and one just became available at a dealership out of state...however, it's an '03 LX with leather. Everything I've seen says that leather isn't an option on the LX. It has no roof rack and appears to have the 'light tint' windows - so I'm thinking it really is an LX...but what's the deal with the leather? Should I be wary??
A lot of the aftermarket stuff is excellent. If you like it, there is nothing to be wary of.
That would be a hard Pilot to sell. LX's are very slow movers compared to the others and someone with an LX budget probably wouldn't want to pay for leather. I'm thinking some oddball may have ordered it that way and then backed out?
Thanks for the reply... One of my concerns in buying a car is the price. We could get a minivan however, my wife and I made a pact years ago...so no Odyssey for us. We're looking for a vehicle with less than 30k miles and around $25k. The LX...although not frequently available, is ~$2000 less than the EX models I normally see, even with the leather(again...I'm talking about '03 used Pilots).
You said that 'would be a hard Pilot to sell' - should I take it to mean that it should be avoided for some reason? The only 2 things that it is missing that I'd like are: 1) the roof rack...which can be purchased at an accessories site, and from what I can tell...installed myself ($230) 2) the keychain remote lock/unlock, which again, can be had for ~$150 and self-installed(??). ($160)
A total of ~$400 in accessories.
The leather, to me, is a nice bonus for a fairly low priced Pilot ($25K with 26k miles on it).
I guess we are at opposite ends of the spectrum in our respective definitions of "fairly low priced". A brand new 2004 Pilot LX lists for $27,590 and has an invoice of $24,873. There are many dealers out there selling for $400 to $750 over invoice. Although it may be tough to find, but a new 2004 LX should be able to be purchased for well under $26,000. I doubt the 2005's will sell for much more when they arrive in another few months.
So please tell me you are not seriously considering paying $25k for a nearly two year old LX with 26,000 miles on it? Or, if you are, please tell me that you'll be around to purchase my next new car for darn close to what I paid for it after driving it for two years and using up 70% of the factory warranty.
My definition of a "fair" price for a 2003 LX with 26k miles would be 75% of the new vehicle price. So around $19-20k. Granted, you might not be able to find one for that price. But if not, check your couch cushions for the spare change you would need to get a brand new 2004/2005 Pilot LX. And if the aftermarket leather has gone to your head, try to find a few more spare dollars to get a brand new EX with leather for under $29k. But for goodness sakes, don't embarass yourself trying to tell someone that $25k for a used Pilot LX is a good deal. It's a horrible deal. Period.
gotta say that i agree with habitat (although i won't be quite as harsh ). Basically, the lower finance rates you would get on a new vehicle purchase as opposed to used would make up for that very small purchase price difference.
'11 GMC Sierra 1500; '98 Alfa 156 2.0TS; '08 Maser QP; '67 Coronet R/T; '13 Fiat 500c; '20 S90 T6; '22 MB Sprinter 2500 4x4 diesel; '97 Suzuki R Wagon; '96 Opel Astra; '11 Mini Cooper S
"There are many dealers out there selling for $400 to $750 over invoice"
WHERE?? Everything that I've seen has the '04 Pilots at ~$2000 over invoice! That puts it at about $500 under MSRP. That's the same story that I've heard about Pilots since day 1, and the same for Odysseys.
The demand is high and the volume is low...simple. If you have a source of new Pilots at 500 over invoice, I'm sure we'd all like to hear about it.
One of the main reasons we are considering a used vehicle is to avoid the depreciation hit that you take right when you drive it off the lot. Some of that depreciation is taken care of when you buy used. Although, with Hondas, they do keep their value...so it's not as pronounced as with other vehicles. But in the long haul they keep their price.
We have %75 of the cash for a $25k vehicle and were trying to avoid financing altogether. It's becoming apparent that we're going to have to finance some to get the size vehicle we're looking for. All your recommendations to 'just get a new one' are tempting. It points out the slippery slope to spending more then originally intended and getting things that you don't really need. (I realize 'need' is a relative term here).
Anyway, I'd love to hear you find a better deal. I'm not that far from DC, so if you have a source for a good deal, I'm all ears.
Don't buy a used for 25k. Buy a new one, forget the leather if money is a concern. I "bought" 2004 Odyssey EX (actually leased but talking about the sell price that was on lease paper) for 22,700, which is about 5k off MSRP. It so happened that I went there to check on 2005 Odyssey and decided on a two year lease of 2004 to end my wait)
I don't really care about the leather...it's just a nice to have.
The problem with 'just buy a new one' is that it's more expensive and more $ would have to be financed. That's something I'm opposed to. I've not had a car payment, ever, and I'd rather not start now. However, as I said, I don't think it can be avoided. So, the thought now is to minimize my financing.
Adam, Have you looked at the "Prices Paid..." forums for Pilots?? Many people are getting very good deals in nearby states.
I live near Columbia, Maryland (45 minutes north of DC). Since you are already planning to purchase out-of-state, check out Faulkner Honda in Harrisburg, PA - or Mike Pruitt Honda in Akron, OH - or (best yet) Carrs Honda in Chicago, IL. Others may have recommendations, but these seem to consistently give the best quotes. However, I don't know whether they have LX's.
Send them an email & check it out. I don't think that the deal you mentioned is good. The "depreciation hit" on these "high-demand" vehicles is not as much as you may think. Best of luck. Scott
I just did a quick search on Autotrader and found 10 Pilots for sale within 300mi <$26K & <30K miles. About half were LX's. There is even an LX Sage at Pohanka in Frederickburg, VA.
I personally don't think that any of these were priced great, but it provides some competition to your other option.
Since we are at the end of the 2004 model year, you should be able to get some great deals on a new 2004 LX if you time the purchase correctly.
Also, you may want to evaluate the cloth vs. leather seats. Although neither is particularly comfortable, many people complain that the cloth seats are much worse (regarding comfort).
Im writing on this post since the "accessories and modifications" post is not checked as much as this one.
I was wondering if anyone has the cargo cover accessory. I just got it yesterday and noticed that when I unbuckle the right 3rd row seat belt...and clip it away, there is excess belt. The left 3rd row seat belt clips away nicely with no excess. To use the cargo cover, you need to unbuckle both belts in the 3rd row seat.
My question is if other people also have this problem...or if my right 3rd row seat belt was defective. thanks.
Adam, when you take into consiration the duration you get to keep the vehicle, (say 150k miles for a new one instead of 124k miles for the used one) it'd make sense to pay a little more now. If a new one can be had for 27k, used should be less then 20k.
For example, 150,000 miles/27,000 = 18 cents a mile. 124,000/25,000 = 20.16 cents.
May be $22,300 brings to 18 cents but then about 2,300 should be subtracted for that "initial depreciation".
A lot of "experts" frequent these forums. I think most of these people honestly try to be helpful but their advise is worth the price you pay for it.
Pilots are not distressed merchandise. I hear of the 400.00 over invoice etc deals but they make no sense. Do not believe everything you read in the "Prices Paid" forums.
To install aftermarket leather in a Pilot runs around 1500.00. On a used one it **might** add 500.00 to it's value.
There is nothing at all wrong with LX Pilots. They simply don't sell nearly as well as the EX and above models. We usually keep one on hand just in case someone wants one but a lot of dealers don't even order any. for every LX that is ordered that means there is one lass EX we can get.
Hondas do hold their values better than most other cars so it isn't unusual for a year or two old Honda to bring very close to what a new one will cost. This is especially true with Civics.
Comments
tidester, host
And, no, I don't have any links to post.
I don't know why anyone would accuse Honda of not doing the right thing by these problems. I thought them stepping up and offering the extended warranty to everyone said a lot about their commitment to customer satisfaction.
My Accord has 65,000 miles and has had very few problems. My 2002 CR-V now has 25,000 miles and no problems. I have had great experiences with Honda's and Acura's. For that reason I am looking to get a 2005 Pilot regardless of whether they state they have "fixed" these transmission issues. I believe they have and if it turns out to be false, then I believ Honda would step up and back up their product.
I have been considering selling my Pilot for a few months. This transmission issue is just another annoyance in a series of problems. I am still very happy with the Pilot, relative to my many prior Explorer experiences, but this is no Accord. I would prefer something that drives a bit more securely with less problems. I probably wouldn't even consider replacing it, but with the ridiculous resale value... why not move to something that spends less time in the shop and is more fun on the road!
I have been thinking about buying a Pilot for a while now. I was wondering what car you were thinking of buying to replace your Pilot?
I would look at the voluntary 100,000 mile extended warranty it a little differently than you, only because I expect Hondas and Acuras to last well past 100,000 miles with respect to major mechanical systems. I have a 1995 Nissan Maxima with 153,000 miles and it's still on its original clutch. The first repair of any kind was a water pump at 100,000+ miles. So, while I can appreciate that some would say that an extended warranty is good enough, I might agree if it were to 10 years and 150k miles. Especially since some makes with far lower quality ratings than Honda offer 100k mile powertrain warranties standard.
ssminton,
What kind of other problems have you had with your Pilot?
isellhondas,
For the record, when I bought my 2002 Honda S2000, I had heard that the 2000 and 2001 models had a grinding problem in the 1-2 gears. The sales manager faxed me an article on the issue and a technical bulletin from Honda explaining what specifically they did to strengthen the gears and put in a connical synchro to prevent grinding in the new 2002 transmission. The sales manager had one of his service managers call me to anwswer any further questions I had. I went ahead with my purchase, fully satisfied that the issue was resolved, and very pleased with the professional response to my questions by the dealership. I never had a problem and loved the car right up to the day I traded it for my TL.
That same Honda service manager's answer to the Pilot transmission issue is his personal recommendation to wait until the 2005 model and see if Honda doesn't completely replace it with a different design. He himself has not been pleased with the slowness to respond with a new design that eliminates the potential problems altogether. He rates the manner in which Honda handled the S2000 issue an "A", the Pilot/Accord/Odyssey a "C".
((:-))
so you don't want to hear from all of the people that have no problems with their transmissions? Well now there's a good way to create a one-sided argument.
although i own one, i'm going to answer your question anyway - the answer is basically all of the above. Just read the press releases from Honda. Honda corporate, Honda engineers, and the Honda mechanics at isell's shop say its fixed. There's nothing more that needs to be added. Once again, and for the final time, whether you trust all that or not is entirely up to the individual.
Oh, and by the way, the personal attacks on isell really don't help you strengthen your position. Just a personal tip from me to you. Good luck in whatever you decide. That's enough of this convo.
'11 GMC Sierra 1500; '98 Alfa 156 2.0TS; '08 Maser QP; '67 Coronet R/T; '13 Fiat 500c; '20 S90 T6; '22 MB Sprinter 2500 4x4 diesel; '97 Suzuki R Wagon; '96 Opel Astra; '11 Mini Cooper S
I am just after facts, before I throw my 30 grand on any car.
And by the way,
Try to win over an argument by producing facts and evidence.
I have no doubt your Pilot is absolutly fantastic.
The point is >>>Has Honda made any changes to its transmisions and I am not talking of ,quick fix.<<<<<
I've searched the web and spoken with my Honda dealer and I know of no such information. The only press releases I have read have acknowledged a problem and indicated that as part of the recall, Honda would check, repair and replace, if necessary, the affected transmissions. But I have not seen any official information that Honda has changed the design or done anything else to correct the problem at its source. As far as I have been able to determine, the transmission in a 2004 Pilot sitting on the lot today is exactly the same one that is the subject of the recall. My service manager believes that to be the case, as well.
I may have misspoken earlier. This isn't really a matter of "trust", whereby I'm refuting something in writing by Honda. It's a matter of sketchy information, at best. If I saw a written press release or other official documentation from Honda that indicated "Pilots and oher models produced after 'x' date have had transmission design or other modifications to correct the source of transmission failure", this would be a dead issue for me..
I don't condone personal attacks on isellhondas. But I think we are all frustrated on these occassions when we simply want the facts and can't seem to get a straight answer. Fill in the "x" above with an official source and we can all move on.
P.S. Or you can tell me to pound salt. I'm not going to replace our SUV until 2005 now anyway and I would certainly hope this would be a moot issue by then. I was just raising it as something for those considering a 2004 to be aware of.
Problems over the past two years:
- Alignment issues.
- B-pillar rattle/squeak in warmer weather.
- Throttle valve issues which has resulted the Pilot "driving itself" twice.
- Interior panel fit. I believe this was a "1st off the factory line" problem. Within the first 3 months, every interior panel had to be re-seated and a few repaired since.
- Steering wheel vibrations.
- Rear lift gate hydroulics weak.
- Fuel mileage inconsistencies.
Understand that my Pilot has 50K miles. So to experience some maintenance issues with a car of this age is not uncommon. Most of the problems occurred well before 36K miles. As I said above, I took comfort hits for Honda reliability. This combined with the vehicle "float" on back road driving is leaning me towards replacement.
Due to my significant two-lane-road driving, I am considering a wagon as a replacement. I drove the 2005 Outback (3.0 LLBean & 2.5XT Turbo) yesterday. These are a phenomenal new cars. With the Pilot still "hot" and great resale value, I plan to put it on the market and see what happens. If it sells, I'll go with something new. If not, I'll stick with it. As much as I have complaints, it is not a "bad" car, I just expected more.
http://www.hondacars.com/info/news/article.asp?ArticleID=20040414- 36013
The fifth paragraph explains the fix.
Now, how you perceived this fix is all upon you. Personally, I consider a modification to the lubrication system a redesign. In my opinion, a "quick fix" would be changing the fluid every 10K miles.
And as far as "fixing it at the source," I have read somewhere that all new transmissions coming off the line have this lubrication redesign already done. I can't prove that, and really don't care to. First of all, it doesn't matter. If its not done at the factory, it will need to be done at the dealership. So it will be done. Second of all, it would be very cost ineffective for Honda to pay all the dealers to do it rather than do it themselves at the factory, so I will assume that, based on the simplest business sense, it is done at the factory now. And as far as those on the lot? Depends on their build date.
'11 GMC Sierra 1500; '98 Alfa 156 2.0TS; '08 Maser QP; '67 Coronet R/T; '13 Fiat 500c; '20 S90 T6; '22 MB Sprinter 2500 4x4 diesel; '97 Suzuki R Wagon; '96 Opel Astra; '11 Mini Cooper S
As I recall, we had two or three Odysseys that needed the update kit.
It's not the enormous deal some would make this out to be. As I understand it, very few vehicles would ever have a problem with or without the update.
And, the update isn't the "band-aid" someone here called it. It's a fix as preventative maintenance.
This issue does appear to be a different problem than that which affected the 5-speed automatics in the 2002/2003 TL, since those models aren't mentioned.
I wonder why Acura chose to replace the MDX transmission for 2003, but Honda left it in the Odyssey / Pilot? In any event, it looks like late midel 2004 Pilots are O.K.. Again, thanks for the information.
ssminton,
Thanks for your summary of your 50k Pilot experience. I would say that your list of problems is far more than I would expect from Honda. I bought a newly redesinged 1995 Maxima in late 1994 and had virtually no repairs or "extra" maintenance for 7 years and 100k+ miles. Other than a broken roof latch that was quickly repaired, my Honda S2000 had nothing but 4 oil changes in 2.5 years and 18,000 miles.
Fortunately for you, the Pilot has held its value very well. If amenities, comfort and handling is high on your list, you might also want to consider the Volvo XC90 2.5. They are more expensive than the Pilot or Subarus, but if you have the ability, they qualify for the accelerated business tax write-off with the 3rd seat package (GVW of 6,000+ lbs). That puts an XC90 at about $3,000 less expensive than a Pilot for us, after tax. The seating comfort in the XC90 is the best of any SUV, IMO and the interior is of very nice quality. The reliability of 2003's was poor, but appears to have improved significantly for 2004.
Most of the 01-02 MDX transmission failures reported on various message boards cite the problem as the third gear clutch pack. This is the same issue that affected the aforementioned TL's, CL's.
There is a massive 1,000+ page report somewhere on the NHTSA web site. I lost the URL for it, might take some work to find it again. There was an attempt at a summary of the report on another web site, but Townhall rules prevent me from posting the link to it.
There are items in it that seem to indicate that there was a problem in the surface of the third gear clutch disk, perhaps resulting from the transfer of manufacturer of the part from Japan to the U.S. and subsequent retransfer within the U.S. There is discussion that improving the U.S. manufacturing process may address the issue.
The problem is that if one is looking for problems, they can read the NHTSA report one way, while someone who is optimistic will read it another way.
Ultimately, I think what has disappointed some Honda/Acura owners is that while no one can expect their vehicles to be perfect, there have been some significant, uncharacteristic, and documented quality issues in recent Honda/Acura vehicles. While I don't think everyone expects perfection, I don't think Honda/Acura fans expect that the vehicles have issues with the transmission, safety issues with the front airbags, etc. It's expected that Honda/Acura is WAY better than the "lesser brands." And that problems are minor and not major. That's what has helped earn Honda its reputation, high resale value, and higher selling prices.
Here are some excerpts from the NHTSA report, as summarized on the unmentionable site.
?Changes in Manufacture of Third Clutch Pack?
Third clutch pack manufacturing (assembling location of FCC was changed from Japan to the US in April 2001).
=================================
Changes in parts/manufacturing process related to third clutch pack thereafter:
* Oct 2001:
Localization of PGH in the US started
Localization of GUIDE COMP in the US started
* DISK bonding process transferred from FCC-Indiana to FCC-North Carolina in December 2001
(PGH disk bonding process is scheduled to be transferred in late Feb. 2002)
No other changes in M/L, material, equipment, etc since HTM launched upon mass production in April 2000.
* The transfer of the third clutch pack manufacture (assembly) to the US factory and the beginning of the increasing tendency of occurrence synchronized with each other.
...
- By replacement of sanding belt, surface roughness will be better than the present level.
- Unstable surface roughness immediately after replacement of sanding belt can be solved by re-lapping and as a consequence, the overall level is further raised.
* Replacement of sanding belt can bring about an improvement in surface roughness of US-made clutch plate to the extent that it is comparable to the surface roughness of Japanese-made clutch plate.
...
* In the high Q/A mode (50-cycle durability test, the amount of facing wear of US-made clutch plate was larger [greater] and more influenced by clutch plate surface roughness than that of Japanese-made clutch plate.
...
* The amount of facing wear of US-made clutch plate was larger and more influenced by clutch roughness than that of the Japanese-made clutch plate. However, even the Japanese-made clutch plate, which was good in surface roughness, met with considerable amount of facing wear when tested in the ?tricky? full-throttle kickdown shift/upshift repeat mode
...
CL-S third clutch problem arose in the market is summarized as follows:
1. High Q/A at low temperature and poor surface roughness of clutch plate combine together to accelerate wear of facing
2. Wear of facing is increased in case of repetition of kickdown shift/upshift.
3. Clutch clearance is increased, and engine flares up.
Eventually the third clutch is burned.
This problem should be solved by restraining initial wear through (1) improvement in surface roughness of clutch place and (2) review of high Q/A on 2-3 upshift at low temperature? and by ?(3) keeping clutch plate temperature from rising when kickdown shift/upshift is repeated.?
P988:
?5-2 down-shift occurrence ratio = 84/681,103=0.01%?
Note: total warranty claims = 9,234; total third clutch failures = 5375
How many Pilot transmissions are known to have failed? Anyone report one on this board?
With the exception of some early Pilot's, the list of so called problems that I have seen are nothing more than minor annoyances - and I don't know of any first year vehicles that didn't have a few, including my wife's Endeavor. My 2003 has had a couple of minor annoyances in 30K mile, but nothing that couldn't wait until it went in for a scheduled service. Moving into the 2004 model year, there seems to be fewer issues and annoyances reported.
gbd21 – although you claim to be in the market for a Pilot, I find your posts extremely slanted towards the negative for someone who is interested in buying one and has been a member for less than four weeks. How could you possibly determine the tune of isellhondas songs (post # 5773) from the 5 posts he's made since you joined? Do you have another alias? I have seen all you Honda posts since you joined and it would appear you either have an agenda or something personal against Honda and/or the dealer network. Your posts are not insightful nor do they provide readers any real value - JMHO, of course.
I noticed on the Honda Pilot Owners: Accessories & Modifications board that you installed your own running boards or side steps. I am planning to install my own side steps and was wondering how hard it is to remove the clips under the pilot to install the side steps. Do you really need the "clip remover" tool? I am writing on this board since no one has responded to this question in the "accessories & modification" board. If anyone has experience with this, please reply. Thanks.
I think that only Honda knows the actual number. Hopefully it's very low. I have seen Pilot transmission failure reports on another system dedicated to the Pilot. However, I doubt if the # of incidents reported there is statistically relevant.
'11 GMC Sierra 1500; '98 Alfa 156 2.0TS; '08 Maser QP; '67 Coronet R/T; '13 Fiat 500c; '20 S90 T6; '22 MB Sprinter 2500 4x4 diesel; '97 Suzuki R Wagon; '96 Opel Astra; '11 Mini Cooper S
There may have been only 10 failures of that type, but you figure that if not for the recall, that number could have grown significantly as the transmissions aged.
My AGENDA is not to be ripped of by the dealers and to find facts.
And may I ask which dealership do YOU work for??
Dealer told me they won't know until the 2005 arrives on their lot.
Thanks!
If you are so capable of reading backdated posts, than may I suggest you do so for mine. You will then realize your "what dealership do you work for" question was silly.
gbd21 said: "My AGENDA is not to be ripped of by the dealers and to find facts."
And what do you consider being ripped off by a dealer? One post you're advocating dealers need to make a profit gbd21 "Honda Pilot: Prices Paid & Buying Experience" Jun 7, 2004 12:25pm! and another post you're telling everyone dealers need to "sweat out a invoice price" gbd21 Jun 22, 2004 4:34am
So, which way is it?
'11 GMC Sierra 1500; '98 Alfa 156 2.0TS; '08 Maser QP; '67 Coronet R/T; '13 Fiat 500c; '20 S90 T6; '22 MB Sprinter 2500 4x4 diesel; '97 Suzuki R Wagon; '96 Opel Astra; '11 Mini Cooper S
Thanks Kyle
not an owner but my parents bought a 2003 pilot ex
Honda CR-V
Honda CR-V Owners: Problems & Solutions
Steve, Host
EDIT - D'oh! Steve beat me to it!
But you can keep credit for that pun all to yerself, Steve.
'11 GMC Sierra 1500; '98 Alfa 156 2.0TS; '08 Maser QP; '67 Coronet R/T; '13 Fiat 500c; '20 S90 T6; '22 MB Sprinter 2500 4x4 diesel; '97 Suzuki R Wagon; '96 Opel Astra; '11 Mini Cooper S
Pilot owners, are you happy with your pilot?
Had a plan to get a pilot 2005, but the huge trans recall (including my 03 accord lx v6) and the "CR-V on fire" thing are scary to me. Now I might get a highlander instead.
It appears to me Honda can never get the V6 trans right. As far as I remember, they have recalled V6 trans many times before.
OTOH, the basic design has experienced issues in vehicles dating back several years. This includes the issues in some older units in Honda sedans/coupes that had their transmission warranties extended to 100k miles, as well as the recall affecting more recent models.
If you look at it optimistically, Honda has fixed all the issues with the tranmissions. And the recall is the final fix and now they're fine.
If you look at it pessimistically, Honda hasn't fixed all the issues yet. A lot of folks thought the trannies were fine after the problems that caused the transmission warranty extension a couple of years ago, but then this year the recalls hit.
Any information on this would be helpful. I am losing sleep
I will say the Honda my wife and I have now (98 Civic EX) has been the picture of the reputed Honda reliability. 83K and not a part replaced except wear items and only now getting a rattle or two.
Kyle
And even if it were one of the affected models, chances are excellent you would have never had a problem anyway with or without the modification.
Rest easy!
A lot of the aftermarket stuff is excellent. If you like it, there is nothing to be wary of.
That would be a hard Pilot to sell. LX's are very slow movers compared to the others and someone with an LX budget probably wouldn't want to pay for leather. I'm thinking some oddball may have ordered it that way and then backed out?
One of my concerns in buying a car is the price. We could get a minivan however, my wife and I made a pact years ago...so no Odyssey for us. We're looking for a vehicle with less than 30k miles and around $25k. The LX...although not frequently available, is ~$2000 less than the EX models I normally see, even with the leather(again...I'm talking about '03 used Pilots).
You said that 'would be a hard Pilot to sell' - should I take it to mean that it should be avoided for some reason? The only 2 things that it is missing that I'd like are:
1) the roof rack...which can be purchased at an accessories site, and from what I can tell...installed myself ($230)
2) the keychain remote lock/unlock, which again, can be had for ~$150 and self-installed(??). ($160)
A total of ~$400 in accessories.
The leather, to me, is a nice bonus for a fairly low priced Pilot ($25K with 26k miles on it).
Any other thoughts are appreciated.
I guess we are at opposite ends of the spectrum in our respective definitions of "fairly low priced". A brand new 2004 Pilot LX lists for $27,590 and has an invoice of $24,873. There are many dealers out there selling for $400 to $750 over invoice. Although it may be tough to find, but a new 2004 LX should be able to be purchased for well under $26,000. I doubt the 2005's will sell for much more when they arrive in another few months.
So please tell me you are not seriously considering paying $25k for a nearly two year old LX with 26,000 miles on it? Or, if you are, please tell me that you'll be around to purchase my next new car for darn close to what I paid for it after driving it for two years and using up 70% of the factory warranty.
My definition of a "fair" price for a 2003 LX with 26k miles would be 75% of the new vehicle price. So around $19-20k. Granted, you might not be able to find one for that price. But if not, check your couch cushions for the spare change you would need to get a brand new 2004/2005 Pilot LX. And if the aftermarket leather has gone to your head, try to find a few more spare dollars to get a brand new EX with leather for under $29k. But for goodness sakes, don't embarass yourself trying to tell someone that $25k for a used Pilot LX is a good deal. It's a horrible deal. Period.
'11 GMC Sierra 1500; '98 Alfa 156 2.0TS; '08 Maser QP; '67 Coronet R/T; '13 Fiat 500c; '20 S90 T6; '22 MB Sprinter 2500 4x4 diesel; '97 Suzuki R Wagon; '96 Opel Astra; '11 Mini Cooper S
WHERE?? Everything that I've seen has the '04 Pilots at ~$2000 over invoice! That puts it at about $500 under MSRP. That's the same story that I've heard about Pilots since day 1, and the same for Odysseys.
The demand is high and the volume is low...simple. If you have a source of new Pilots at 500 over invoice, I'm sure we'd all like to hear about it.
One of the main reasons we are considering a used vehicle is to avoid the depreciation hit that you take right when you drive it off the lot. Some of that depreciation is taken care of when you buy used. Although, with Hondas, they do keep their value...so it's not as pronounced as with other vehicles. But in the long haul they keep their price.
We have %75 of the cash for a $25k vehicle and were trying to avoid financing altogether. It's becoming apparent that we're going to have to finance some to get the size vehicle we're looking for. All your recommendations to 'just get a new one' are tempting. It points out the slippery slope to spending more then originally intended and getting things that you don't really need. (I realize 'need' is a relative term here).
Anyway, I'd love to hear you find a better deal. I'm not that far from DC, so if you have a source for a good deal, I'm all ears.
Good luck!
The problem with 'just buy a new one' is that it's more expensive and more $ would have to be financed. That's something I'm opposed to. I've not had a car payment, ever, and I'd rather not start now. However, as I said, I don't think it can be avoided. So, the thought now is to minimize my financing.
Have you looked at the "Prices Paid..." forums for Pilots?? Many people are getting very good deals in nearby states.
I live near Columbia, Maryland (45 minutes north of DC). Since you are already planning to purchase out-of-state, check out Faulkner Honda in Harrisburg, PA - or Mike Pruitt Honda in Akron, OH - or (best yet) Carrs Honda in Chicago, IL. Others may have recommendations, but these seem to consistently give the best quotes. However, I don't know whether they have LX's.
Send them an email & check it out. I don't think that the deal you mentioned is good. The "depreciation hit" on these "high-demand" vehicles is not as much as you may think. Best of luck.
Scott
I just did a quick search on Autotrader and found 10 Pilots for sale within 300mi <$26K & <30K miles. About half were LX's. There is even an LX Sage at Pohanka in Frederickburg, VA.
I personally don't think that any of these were priced great, but it provides some competition to your other option.
Since we are at the end of the 2004 model year, you should be able to get some great deals on a new 2004 LX if you time the purchase correctly.
Also, you may want to evaluate the cloth vs. leather seats. Although neither is particularly comfortable, many people complain that the cloth seats are much worse (regarding comfort).
Scott
'11 GMC Sierra 1500; '98 Alfa 156 2.0TS; '08 Maser QP; '67 Coronet R/T; '13 Fiat 500c; '20 S90 T6; '22 MB Sprinter 2500 4x4 diesel; '97 Suzuki R Wagon; '96 Opel Astra; '11 Mini Cooper S
I was wondering if anyone has the cargo cover accessory. I just got it yesterday and noticed that when I unbuckle the right 3rd row seat belt...and clip it away, there is excess belt. The left 3rd row seat belt clips away nicely with no excess. To use the cargo cover, you need to unbuckle both belts in the 3rd row seat.
My question is if other people also have this problem...or if my right 3rd row seat belt was defective. thanks.
For example, 150,000 miles/27,000 = 18 cents a mile. 124,000/25,000 = 20.16 cents.
May be $22,300 brings to 18 cents but then about 2,300 should be subtracted for that "initial depreciation".
Pilots are not distressed merchandise. I hear of the 400.00 over invoice etc deals but they make no sense. Do not believe everything you read in the "Prices Paid" forums.
To install aftermarket leather in a Pilot runs around 1500.00. On a used one it **might** add 500.00 to it's value.
There is nothing at all wrong with LX Pilots. They simply don't sell nearly as well as the EX and above models. We usually keep one on hand just in case someone wants one but a lot of dealers don't even order any. for every LX that is ordered that means there is one lass EX we can get.
Hondas do hold their values better than most other cars so it isn't unusual for a year or two old Honda to bring very close to what a new one will cost. This is especially true with Civics.
Good luck!