"Our customers are going to come straight from the Accords. These guys are trading in Accords and getting Explorers, these guys are trading in Accords and getting Envoys. This thing is going to protect the outflow of Honda," Paluch said.
I guess it will continue to happen unless Honda get there production numbers up.
And get serious about the poor service that their dealers are known for! They can build as many Pilots as Explorers and Envoys, but if the dealers aren't willing to budge on the prices, the customers will certainly look elsewhere.
I disagree. So far people have been willing to pay the premium for these cars. The Ody, MDX, S2000, and now CR-V are all selling at MSRP or higher. And dealers are selling them as soon as they get them. Now, if this were just "new model mania", then I'd concede your point. But, for the Ody, MDX, and S2K, it's been a long enough run.
Sure people have walked away from Honda. They will continue to walk. But not enough to make Honda dealers regret it. The way I see it, people are more likely to get accustomed to paying MSRP for a Honda, than Honda dealers are to drop the prices. Honda dealers may end up like Saturn with a "MSRP is the price" sales pitch.
The midsize SUV segment is the jewel of the SUV market. Notice that the Accord, in a segment as important as the midsize sedan, is not selling at MSRP. There is a sea of other midsize sedans that customers can choose from, and the competition is extremely stiff. The same goes for the midsize SUV segment.
The CR-V, Odyssey, MDX and S2000, on the other hand, don't really have that many competitors (especially the S2000). It also helps that they're practically the best choices in their respective markets.
In addition to the dealer mark ups, the Pilot walks the fine line that separates the midsize SUV segment from the full-size SUV segment. Only the Dodge Durango can offer seating for up to 8 in the midsize category. If it's really going to cost ~25-33K, there are the Tahoes and Expeditions that become competitors in the upper price range. Below 30K and there are several other SUVs to choose from.
I agree with you on the S2K. It's really a niche car. I included it only because it shows the longevity of an MSRP campaign, but it's not the same sales environment.
I've always thought that the mini-van market was one of the toughest. I believe I've read articles where it was described as, "cut-throat". While it may not have the same number of direct competitors as the Accord, there are also few buyer buyers. So the ratio of buyers to vehicle choices may be similar (haven't done the math). I think you'll find something similar with the CR-V.
I'm not sure about the MDX, though. While the ML320, X3 or X5, RX300, and others don't represent the same volume of competition, the MDX is also cross-shopped with the loaded versions of the mid-sized class (Highlander, Explorer, Envoy, and others in their leather-clad trims). That's a tougher call.
Regardless, if people were going to get miffed with Honda dealers and walk away from them because of MSRP pricing, don't you think that would've happened already? It seems to me that the public is just getting accustomed to it and accepting it as a "fact of life".
Actually, Accord was selling at MSRP when it was redesigned, especially on the V6 models. They were even waitlisted then. I know it because I bought one before the Accord craze caught up, and I paid 8% under MSRP in October 1997. Couple of months later, a friend of mine had to wait three weeks to get his Accord V6. Honda opened up import from Japan (about 60K units then), and then, as expected, things started to settle down for this 400K per year model.
With Pilot, it would really depend on how it compares to its competition. If it is anything like MDX or Odyssey (which I'm sure it will be), with only 70-80K units to sell, atleast in the first year, there will be more buyers than vehicles, likely. If people compare and like a certain vehicle, they would probably end up paying MSRP on a vehicle, which may not be, at times, much different from couple of grands under MSRP for another vehicle.
CBS aired a 2 minute news report about 3rd row seats in SUVs. They said that the average 10-18 inches of space between the 3rd seat and the back of the vehicle is insufficient for high-impact rear-end collisions. Furthermore, because of the limited seating area, children are usually put back there, which enhances the danger because their bodies aren't capable of withstanding the force that an adult could handle. The government wants to put regulations into effect that would require 3 feet of space between the back and the 3rd seat. The manufacturers insist that their cars are safe.
Three feet???!!! Most coupes and probably most small sedans don't have three feet between the back seat and the rear. There is no way that will happen. Even the 5-star CRV does not have that kind of room.
Robertsmx - True, the Accord did sell at MSRP for a while, but I don't think it was as long as the MDX or Ody. Same goes for the CR-V. A lot of vehicles demand MSRP for the first few months they are available. What I think makes the Hondas (Ody and MDX) unique is that they are still selling at MSRP years after their introduction.
Diploid, I just read a transcript of that report. I didn't see anything about a "3-ft recommendation".
"Here's the dangerous problem: In a rear crash, the seat back -- regardless of which row -- acts as the restraint system, just as the safety belt and air bag do in a front crash. If a seat back is so rigid that it stays upright in a violent rear-ender, the stiff seat slams its passenger forward at the moment of impact. Then the passenger snaps backward against the stiff seat as the struck vehicle halts. Severe whiplash can result.
If, on the other hand, the seat is so yielding that it'll absorb lots of the crash force, the seat back bends far enough backward that the passenger could fly out into whatever's behind -- solid glass or a tailgate, in the case of third-row seats.
The bounce-back from a yielding seat also can cause whiplash. Plus, it takes close to 3 feet of space for a yielding seat to lay back fully. A third row gets that much space only in big SUVs, such as Chevrolet Suburbans."
I don't think they are recommending 3 ft. of empty space. They are only saying that is what would be required if the seat were designed to "give" that much.
They go on to say that having a blend of seat rigidity (not needing the 3 ft.) and a frame that dissapates the enregies is the best design. It's just that no one has a scientific way to measure how effective any one design is.
For a tired mini-van owner one of the biggest selling points of the Pilot will be whether there will be adequate storage space behind the 3rd row (i.e for suitcases and gear if 6 people are traveling together).
Does anyone have any idea when some of these specs will be out?
Okay, this may be minor, but I was wondering if anyone knows if there will be a moonroof in the Pilot. I don't think Odys have them, but MDXs do. I haven't seen one in the red prototype's photos so far, so I figured I would toss this question out to "those in the know."
I have already put down a deposit at my dealer, because we have been waiting for a real Honda SUV (of larger proportion) for some time now. Yes, the Pilot probably can't take on the Rubicon, like my '99 Grand Cherokee can (when it's not having new rotors, etc. put on), but at least I won't get to know the Honda service folks like I have come to know the guys in the Jeep service department. Can you say POOR engineering and sucky reliability? Honda's reputation and our experience(we've always owned at least one Honda)are enough for me to get a place in line for this one.
"Three feet???!!! Most coupes and probably most small sedans don't have three feet between the back seat and the rear. There is no way that will happen. Even the 5-star CRV does not have that kind of room."
What big car fans have been saying all along.
(Of course, where does that leave me with the Wrangler with around 3 feet to the FRONT seat?)
"...one of the biggest selling points of the Pilot will be whether there will be adequate storage space behind the 3rd row (i.e for suitcases and gear if 6 people are traveling together)."
Remeber the old station wagons, where you could have 2 benches with 6 people AND a generous cargo area in back PLUS towing capacity AND a roof rack AND a storage well?
Just wondering if anyone knows what the main differences between the Pilot and MDX besides the obvious exterior differences and the eight person capacity. Isn't it more typical to develop the base models and then rebrand the upscale versions with more bells and whistles, not the other way around? In the case of the Pilot (EX model) I'm trying to figure out what will be taken away that the MDX has. Seem to me that Honda has to preserve the Acura price points.
Well, right off the bat, I know that the MDX will probably have exclusive rights to the:
1) Memory seat and mirrors 2) Automatic dimming rearview mirror 3) Fog lights (I assume) 4) Wood trim 5) Transmission shifter on the floor 6) Trip Computer with temp read out, compass, etc. (I assume) 7) Larger 17 inch wheels 8) Separately controlled rear heat and air (Big maybe since the Odyssey has this so Pilot will probably, too) 9) And probably for 2003 a new 3.8 liter V6 10) And probably also for 2003, OnStar 11) 6 Disc in-dash CD changer (I assume)
But if you single the Touring MDX out, the Base MDX isn't all that different form the loaded Pilot, give or take a floor shifter and wood trim. So, hopefully they will add more to the MDX next year like I've heard but not raise the price by too much.
From NY Times: "Although it has the same wheelbase as the MDX, the Pilot is a little taller and wider, and consequently the interior is larger. It has a maximum cargo volume of about 90 cubic feet behind the front seats, compared with 81.5 for the MDX."
A lot (but possibly not all) of the extra cubic feet in the Pilot over the MDX probably comes from the fact that the Pilot has a relatively vertical rear hatch. The MDX has a strongly sloped rear hatch and that will reduce cubic feet.
Making the vehicle taller would, of course, add a lot to cubic feet.
There's already been some posts on the pros/cons of having the vertical space. E.g. it's useful for hauling odd-shaped bulky items, it's less useful for stacking groceries and stuff where you want to keep the bulk of the bag under the windowline.
Okay so it sounds like a base level MDX will have more then a loaded Pilot (except for maybe the DVD player). I've been told the Pilot will range between $28K and $36K. I've got a deposit for the Pilot at two different dealerships but wonder if I'm going for a high end Pilot why not just buy a base MDX for around the same amount.
Incidentally I almost bought an MDX last year but when mine finally came into the dealership, they tried to screw me so bad on my trade in (ML 320) that I told them they could just give the MDX to the next guy which of course they did without a moments hesitation.
I've read that 4'x8' plywood will fit in the back of the Pilot when the seats are folded. A sheet of plywood will not fit in a MDX but will fit in an Odyssey.
If this is true, then wouldn't the reduction from 146 cu. ft. of cargo space in the Odyssey to 90 cu. ft. in the Pilot come primarily from a higher floor height when the seats are folded in the Pilot?
All I've ever read says a 4' wide piece of plywood will lay flat. I've never seen the length mentioned. Also, when I was at the Chicago auto show the Honda rep said that the pricing would fall in the $26k - $31k range. I assumed $31k would be for an EX with leather and navi and $26k for an LX.
Does anyone have a guess on how easy it will be for an actual adult to get into the 3rd row? I got into the 3rd row of an MDX but it wasn't easy. They wouldn't let anyone touch the Pilot.
I visited Dallas Auto Show over the weekend and made sure to try the third row seat in some vehicles. I'm 6'. Sequioa: My knee was tightly against the 2nd row seat, but the raised floor made it awkward to sit. I wouldn't like to sit in the third row for more than a fifteen minutes. Getting in/out was a challenge. MDX: About 1" less legroom than Seq. The floor was not as high, but knee was well against the 2nd row seatback. The one-push mechanism in the second row seat to make room to get into the third row was good but getting in/out was still a challenge. Odyssey: The most comfortable third row. Pilot: NA.
I think $26K LX w/o options and $31K for the LX with certain options. They will probably built up the price from there with more options.
Probably about the same range as the Toyota Highlander plus $2000-$3000 to start with is a good assumption. They are trying to compete against Toyota more than anyone else.
Does anybody have any information about transmission choices in the upcoming Pilot? There seems to be a paucity of SUV's that have a 5 speed manual transmission option, and it sure would be great if the Pilot were to offer a 5-speed manual option. Any information would be greatly appreciated. Thanks!
You can forget about the stick. Not gonna happen. My best guess on pricing based on the price difference of Accord EX V6 vs. TL. Pilot LX $25K, EX $27K, EXL $28.5, EX NAVI or DVD Entertainment $31K. In most metro markets, they will probably sell for $2k+ over list for the the first 12 months. 75,000 units for the first year is what they have forecasted for production. Realistic demand is more like 180,000 per year. Until Honda can get more capacity for this truck, consumers will have to pay over for it. What other choices do you have? Hi-line SUV for $37K+ or domestic for the same prices. If you intend to lease, your payment on the Pilot will probably be lower than lets say an Explorer, because of the huge difference in the residual. My guess 62% for the Pilot and 47% for the Explorer for 36 months. That's even accounts for paying over list!(The payment not the residual)
Honda typically does not offer options like say a GM or Toyota. Their trim lines usually take care of things. There will most likely be an LX trim with a few options available (going from the Civic and CR-V) such as side airbags. Then you will have a top of the line EX trim which will have virtually no options (the navi and the DVD confuse things a bit but generally it will be the same as with other Hondas) . Thats how they've done it in the past, I expect it to be the same with the Pilot. Of course the dealer will be happy to add just about anything to any trim line but that's not what I am referring to, I am talking about factory installed options.
Toyota options you to death, Honda does not (although some people view having to get a higher trim line to get some features as the same thing).
Maybe someone can provide some clarification on this. I've been told that the EPA volume measurements only include the cargo area up to the top of the seats. Dunno how true that is. Is anybody here able to back that up or disprove it?
If it is true, then the idea Wmquan described about the sloped rear window and raised roof, would not apply. At least not significantly. Which leaves us with few other explanations.
I think you've got the prices just about right. If you look at the Ody the base is 24,690 for an LX. The EX adds 2,500, leather another 1,500 and navi 2,000. If you start with a base of 25,000 or 26,000 for Pilot that would have it topping out at 31,000 or 32,000 and that would agree with what the Honda rep told me at the auto show. After all, just what does the Pilot have that is missing from the Ody (other than it's NOT a mini van)? AWD? But the Ody has those power sliding doors and more room so that should cancel out.
As far as paying over MSRP, fugedaboudit! Just find a reputable dealer. I have a $500 deposit down on a Pilot and the receipt says price not to exceed MSRP. I bought one other vehicle from this dealership so I know they'll stick to this. They also have a great service department. If anyone is in the Chicago area and wants the dealer's name and phone number let me know.
Pilot fans: We're getting carried away with all this detailed speculation when we know little about the final Pilot specifications, and when there are so many variables.
The 90cf volume I posted from the NYT does not mention whether this is an EPA volume number, or manufacturer volume number. If you have followed the Toyota Sequoia vs GM Suburban interior volume controversy you know that manufacturer numbers should be taken with a grain of salt (Toyota numbers were inflated by removing rear seat, which required a wrench). The kicker with Honda is that they are typically conservative. For example, MDX hp is rated 240, yet acceleration times (0-60 in 8.1 sec) plugged into hp calculation yields more like 280 hp (and at the rear wheels !). Bigger horses...?
I have remarked before, that they are magicians with their motors (historic performance of S2K), and are becoming magicians with interior space as well. For example, the 02 Civic and CRV both increased approximately 10% in interior volume while retaining their old exterior dimensions. (This actually reinforces the MDX platform information as 90cf is approx 10% larger than MDX 81.5cf)
I was hoping that the Pilot would have more volume than the currently reported 90cf as my current vehicles have 120, and 155cf (no not SUVs, vans). I continue to hope that volume and wheelbase numbers (I read at one time an 8 inch longer wheelbase for the Pilot than the MDX) are Honda disinformation, and that production vehicles are 114in wheelbase, and 120cf plus volume.
Bottom line is, I expect Pilot fans will be pleased with the packaging inside and out, regardless whether the platform is identical to MDX.
You make it sound like that dealer is doing you a favor. I'm also in Chicago and when I purchased a CR-V most wanted MSRP but several did not. I think you should check into those dealers as they may be more willing to deal (although at this point who knows). I sure hope you're not talking about the dealer on Golf Rd.
Yes, computing cargo volume (and interior volume) is a relatively black art and relies on the manufacturers to provide the data. Manufacturers are free to fudge on the conservative side or to be as aggressive as possible as long as they adhere to the regulations. Same goes for MPG and emissions data, which is why some vehicles' mileage varies much more (worse) than some others.
Manufacturers measure based on the Society of Automotive Engineer's (SAE) Recommended Practice J1100, and it's based on a number of factors, such as:
"The SAE procedure calculates interior volume from many height, width and length dimensions inside the vehicle, including head room, foot room, seat width, etc. The trunk volume is typically determined by putting many suitcase sized boxes in the trunk and adding up the volume of each box."
It's not clear if the cargo volume of an SUV is only the cargo volume below the seatline but I wouldn't be surprised, now that varmint mentions it. Makes sense (in which case the Pilot is getting its volume elsewhere).
Unfortunately, SAE's website does not have J1100 available for easy perusal -- you have to buy it to see it.
Please also note that SAE's procedures have changed somewhat, as I've seen some measurements based on "old standard" and "new standard."
I like Consumer Reports' approach where they use the box frame, as well as the old-fashioned soft drink/beer case. Obviously one's cargo volume is affected by what shape of cargo they're packing, of course.
I have deposits at two different dealerships and both told me the pricing from Honda is expected to come in between $28K and $35/36K. I bought an Odyssey from one of the two at MSRP so I'm not anticipating any games this go around. I hope speedbird151 is correct about the pricing but I have my doubts.
Other TH members have posted the possibility of using a net full of ping-pong balls as a standard for measuring interior volume. Dunno if it's accurate, but it sounds like fun!
Everything I've read says the demand will exceed the supply so MSRP will be the least you pay. If the range is $25/$26k to $31/$32k then the price will be fair. The dealer I was speaking of is Motor Werks in Barrington.
I just called a Honda Dealer in NJ to put a deposit on the Pilot. I figured I better try and get on the waiting list now before the prices go up. Boy was I shocked when the salesman told me they are only taking deposits for customers who are agreeing to pay $4,000.00 over MSRP. No other deposits would be accepted. I told him to forget it. He then said you can try and call me the end of May to see if anything has changed. If they are asking $4,000.00 over MSRP now what are they going to be asking then $10,000.00?
It seems they are combining the majority of exterior colors with just the grey interior. I would like to see a Black or Red exterior combined with the saddle color interior. Red and grey is way too bland. But on the other hand, I guess you have to think about the "dirt and scrape factor".
That's what they say about the CR-V but I didn't pay sticker. MW was one of the worst in my opinion. I offered to give you some leads, you don't seem interested. Good luck.
Anyone paying $1 over MSRP is nuts. We have six Honda dealers in the metro-Milwaukee area and I've spoken with four of them. They are all writing contracts at MSRP and two of them are offering accessories at their cost.
The dealer I have my deposit with is writing contracts for 6/30/02 delivery (althouth they were not sure on that, that is what their regional distribution rep from Honda told them). Also, they were anticipating around $2,000 over comperably equipped Odysseys as far as MSRP goes (basically the AWD).
At $4,000 over MSRP, you could fly anywhere in the country, buy one at sticker, have a great road-trip back home, and still be $3,500 ahead.....
Everything I've seen and heard says no 2WD options here. It's AWD or nothing. Too bad about the manual transmission. It would be great to have a short-throw 5-speed like my GS-R has....or maybe the 6-speed in the new CL!
I heard, twice, on motorweek that 4wd will be a option, they could be wrong. I think a base 4wd will be start around 27,500-28000. 4wd passport, 4wd 3 row explorer and druango all start over 27000. I highly doubt the ALL NEW pilot will cost less than the passport, and its competitors.
Hi, Thanks to porknbeans on filling me in about the Honda Pilot. For those "RMS41" in the Chicago area where did you put your deposit down? I see one person has a contract saying not to exceed the MSRP.
I'm in the suburbs too! I only know Nissan dealers, so please fill me in on the Honda dealers who provide quality service in our area. I don't want to deal with a dealership that doesn't want to bother with you after you bought the vehicle!!
Wow--rear camera, and backup sensors? I wonder where the screen for the camera will be, in the q45 it's integrated into the nav screen. I wonder if the accessories will be available when the pilot is here or wait for them after it arrives. I bet we will get more specifics this month since a june release means at least early april build time. Some posts have said that the dealers will get 1 or 2 to demo, then i quess order. I wonder if this is true and if this will delay actual customer delivery times? Can you get the entertainment system with the nav? if not i'll add the entertainment system later.
So far to my knowledge, there will be "10" new SUV entries coming into the market this year. 1) KIA Sorento; 2 & 3) ISUZU Acender (Trooper replacement) and Rodeo; 4) NISSAN Murano (alleged Pathfinder replacement); 5) MERCURY Aviator (Mountaineer replacement); 6) LEXUS GX470; 7) TOYOTA 4runner; 8) VOLVO XC90 (I think I spelled it right); 9) VW Taureg; 10)PORSCHE Cayenne. I should start making plans for Detroit's 2003 auto show. That should be a good one to see.
With all of these new entries coming in the market, Honda/Acura better come correct with their marketing. I see the light at the end of the road that this may turn to a buyer's market in the latter part of this year. Honda dealerships better not play the same game as their sister company (Acura) is doing now.
Also, Autoweek.com is now showing the new pictures of the new porsche SUV. I'm sure it will be out of my price range, but hey, I can still dream.
My local Honda dealer is Motor Werks in Barrington. They will guarantee MSRP (they have a company policy to not sell over MSRP). carguy62 says he got his CR-V under MSRP in the Chicago area when others wanted MSRP so maybe you should check with him. IMHO the Pilot will be in great demand and deals under MSRP may be non-existent. I'm going to stick with Motor Werks as they have the best service department I have ever seen. When I drop my Accord off for service they'll drive me home and pick me up when it's done. They also sold me the Accord (a '99 LX V6 coupe) at a discount when others were asking MSRP and adding a bunch of dealer options.
Comments
I guess it will continue to happen unless Honda get there production numbers up.
Sure people have walked away from Honda. They will continue to walk. But not enough to make Honda dealers regret it. The way I see it, people are more likely to get accustomed to paying MSRP for a Honda, than Honda dealers are to drop the prices. Honda dealers may end up like Saturn with a "MSRP is the price" sales pitch.
The CR-V, Odyssey, MDX and S2000, on the other hand, don't really have that many competitors (especially the S2000). It also helps that they're practically the best choices in their respective markets.
In addition to the dealer mark ups, the Pilot walks the fine line that separates the midsize SUV segment from the full-size SUV segment. Only the Dodge Durango can offer seating for up to 8 in the midsize category. If it's really going to cost ~25-33K, there are the Tahoes and Expeditions that become competitors in the upper price range. Below 30K and there are several other SUVs to choose from.
I've always thought that the mini-van market was one of the toughest. I believe I've read articles where it was described as, "cut-throat". While it may not have the same number of direct competitors as the Accord, there are also few buyer buyers. So the ratio of buyers to vehicle choices may be similar (haven't done the math). I think you'll find something similar with the CR-V.
I'm not sure about the MDX, though. While the ML320, X3 or X5, RX300, and others don't represent the same volume of competition, the MDX is also cross-shopped with the loaded versions of the mid-sized class (Highlander, Explorer, Envoy, and others in their leather-clad trims). That's a tougher call.
Regardless, if people were going to get miffed with Honda dealers and walk away from them because of MSRP pricing, don't you think that would've happened already? It seems to me that the public is just getting accustomed to it and accepting it as a "fact of life".
Couple of months later, a friend of mine had to wait three weeks to get his Accord V6. Honda opened up import from Japan (about 60K units then), and then, as expected, things started to settle down for this 400K per year model.
With Pilot, it would really depend on how it compares to its competition. If it is anything like MDX or Odyssey (which I'm sure it will be), with only 70-80K units to sell, atleast in the first year, there will be more buyers than vehicles, likely. If people compare and like a certain vehicle, they would probably end up paying MSRP on a vehicle, which may not be, at times, much different from couple of grands under MSRP for another vehicle.
Diploid, I just read a transcript of that report. I didn't see anything about a "3-ft recommendation".
"Here's the dangerous problem: In a rear crash, the seat back -- regardless of which row -- acts as the restraint system, just as the safety belt and air bag do in a front crash. If a seat back is so rigid that it stays upright in a violent rear-ender, the stiff seat slams its passenger forward at the moment of impact. Then the passenger snaps backward against the stiff seat as the struck vehicle halts. Severe whiplash can result.
If, on the other hand, the seat is so yielding that it'll absorb lots of the crash force, the seat back bends far enough backward that the passenger could fly out into whatever's behind -- solid glass or a tailgate, in the case of third-row seats.
The bounce-back from a yielding seat also can cause whiplash. Plus, it takes close to 3 feet of space for a yielding seat to lay back fully. A third row gets that much space only in big SUVs, such as Chevrolet Suburbans."
I don't think they are recommending 3 ft. of empty space. They are only saying that is what would be required if the seat were designed to "give" that much.
They go on to say that having a blend of seat rigidity (not needing the 3 ft.) and a frame that dissapates the enregies is the best design. It's just that no one has a scientific way to measure how effective any one design is.
Does anyone have any idea when some of these specs will be out?
Honda has been silent with specific interior and exterior dimensions. Lot of talk but no specifications yet.
I believe the cargo space behind the 3rd row will be identical to the MDX at 16 cubic feet.
Cheers
I have already put down a deposit at my dealer, because we have been waiting for a real Honda SUV (of larger proportion) for some time now. Yes, the Pilot probably can't take on the Rubicon, like my '99 Grand Cherokee can (when it's not having new rotors, etc. put on), but at least I won't get to know the Honda service folks like I have come to know the guys in the Jeep service department. Can you say POOR engineering and sucky reliability? Honda's reputation and our experience(we've always owned at least one Honda)are enough for me to get a place in line for this one.
What big car fans have been saying all along.
(Of course, where does that leave me with the Wrangler with around 3 feet to the FRONT seat?)
Remeber the old station wagons, where you could have 2 benches with 6 people AND a generous cargo area in back PLUS towing capacity AND a roof rack AND a storage well?
ANYONE???
PLEASE BRING BACK BENCH SEATS!!!!!
1) Memory seat and mirrors
2) Automatic dimming rearview mirror
3) Fog lights (I assume)
4) Wood trim
5) Transmission shifter on the floor
6) Trip Computer with temp read out, compass, etc. (I assume)
7) Larger 17 inch wheels
8) Separately controlled rear heat and air (Big maybe since the Odyssey has this so Pilot will probably, too)
9) And probably for 2003 a new 3.8 liter V6
10) And probably also for 2003, OnStar
11) 6 Disc in-dash CD changer (I assume)
But if you single the Touring MDX out, the Base MDX isn't all that different form the loaded Pilot, give or take a floor shifter and wood trim. So, hopefully they will add more to the MDX next year like I've heard but not raise the price by too much.
"Although it has the same wheelbase as the MDX, the Pilot is a little taller and wider, and consequently the interior is larger. It has a maximum cargo volume of about 90 cubic feet behind the front seats, compared with 81.5 for the MDX."
http://www.nytimes.com/2002/01/20/automobiles/20PILO.html
Article also states that Pilot wheelbase will be same as MDX. Hope the extra volume goes toward third row seat room as MDX third row is cramped.
Making the vehicle taller would, of course, add a lot to cubic feet.
There's already been some posts on the pros/cons of having the vertical space. E.g. it's useful for hauling odd-shaped bulky items, it's less useful for stacking groceries and stuff where you want to keep the bulk of the bag under the windowline.
Incidentally I almost bought an MDX last year but when mine finally came into the dealership, they tried to screw me so bad on my trade in (ML 320) that I told them they could just give the MDX to the next guy which of course they did without a moments hesitation.
If this is true, then wouldn't the reduction from 146 cu. ft. of cargo space in the Odyssey to 90 cu. ft. in the Pilot come primarily from a higher floor height when the seats are folded in the Pilot?
Does anyone have a guess on how easy it will be for an actual adult to get into the 3rd row? I got into the 3rd row of an MDX but it wasn't easy. They wouldn't let anyone touch the Pilot.
Sequioa: My knee was tightly against the 2nd row seat, but the raised floor made it awkward to sit. I wouldn't like to sit in the third row for more than a fifteen minutes. Getting in/out was a challenge.
MDX: About 1" less legroom than Seq. The floor was not as high, but knee was well against the 2nd row seatback. The one-push mechanism in the second row seat to make room to get into the third row was good but getting in/out was still a challenge.
Odyssey: The most comfortable third row.
Pilot: NA.
Probably about the same range as the Toyota Highlander plus $2000-$3000 to start with is a good assumption. They are trying to compete against Toyota more than anyone else.
Best Regards,
Berkeley, CA
Toyota options you to death, Honda does not (although some people view having to get a higher trim line to get some features as the same thing).
If it is true, then the idea Wmquan described about the sloped rear window and raised roof, would not apply. At least not significantly. Which leaves us with few other explanations.
As far as paying over MSRP, fugedaboudit! Just find a reputable dealer. I have a $500 deposit down on a Pilot and the receipt says price not to exceed MSRP. I bought one other vehicle from this dealership so I know they'll stick to this. They also have a great service department. If anyone is in the Chicago area and wants the dealer's name and phone number let me know.
We're getting carried away with all this detailed speculation when we know little about the final Pilot specifications, and when there are so many variables.
The 90cf volume I posted from the NYT does not mention whether this is an EPA volume number, or manufacturer volume number. If you have followed the Toyota Sequoia vs GM Suburban interior volume controversy you know that manufacturer numbers should be taken with a grain of salt (Toyota numbers were inflated by removing rear seat, which required a wrench). The kicker with Honda is that they are typically conservative. For example, MDX hp is rated 240, yet acceleration times (0-60 in 8.1 sec) plugged into hp calculation yields more like 280 hp (and at the rear wheels !). Bigger horses...?
I have remarked before, that they are magicians with their motors (historic performance of S2K), and are becoming magicians with interior space as well. For example, the 02 Civic and CRV both increased approximately 10% in interior volume while retaining their old exterior dimensions. (This actually reinforces the MDX platform information as 90cf is approx 10% larger than MDX 81.5cf)
I was hoping that the Pilot would have more volume than the currently reported 90cf as my current vehicles have 120, and 155cf (no not SUVs, vans). I continue to hope that volume and wheelbase numbers (I read at one time an 8 inch longer wheelbase for the Pilot than the MDX) are Honda disinformation, and that production vehicles are 114in wheelbase, and 120cf plus volume.
Bottom line is, I expect Pilot fans will be pleased with the packaging inside and out, regardless whether the platform is identical to MDX.
And speedbird151, I like your numbers.
Manufacturers measure based on the Society of Automotive Engineer's (SAE) Recommended Practice J1100, and it's based on a number of factors, such as:
"The SAE procedure calculates interior volume from many height, width and length dimensions inside the vehicle, including head room, foot room, seat width, etc. The trunk volume is typically determined by putting many suitcase sized boxes in the trunk and adding up the volume of each box."
It's not clear if the cargo volume of an SUV is only the cargo volume below the seatline but I wouldn't be surprised, now that varmint mentions it. Makes sense (in which case the Pilot is getting its volume elsewhere).
Unfortunately, SAE's website does not have J1100 available for easy perusal -- you have to buy it to see it.
Please also note that SAE's procedures have changed somewhat, as I've seen some measurements based on "old standard" and "new standard."
I like Consumer Reports' approach where they use the box frame, as well as the old-fashioned soft drink/beer case. Obviously one's cargo volume is affected by what shape of cargo they're packing, of course.
http://www.collegehillshonda.com/2002.htm
or
http://www.collegehillshonda.com/new/pilot/pilot3.htm
Here is where is trim and colors are:
http://www.collegehillshonda.com/news/021602.htm
Here are is the accessories:
http://www.collegehillshonda.com/parts/extension/pilot/03pilot.htm
ENJOY
The pictures: we've seen on wieck.
The info.: we've already read it from other sources.
Basically, nothing new.
Oh, and we're the featured discussion for the week.
The dealer I have my deposit with is writing contracts for 6/30/02 delivery (althouth they were not sure on that, that is what their regional distribution rep from Honda told them). Also, they were anticipating around $2,000 over comperably equipped Odysseys as far as MSRP goes (basically the AWD).
At $4,000 over MSRP, you could fly anywhere in the country, buy one at sticker, have a great road-trip back home, and still be $3,500 ahead.....
I'm in the suburbs too! I only know Nissan dealers, so please fill me in on the Honda dealers who provide quality service in our area.
I don't want to deal with a dealership that doesn't want to bother with you after you bought the vehicle!!
Thanks!
With all of these new entries coming in the market, Honda/Acura better come correct with their marketing. I see the light at the end of the road that this may turn to a buyer's market in the latter part of this year. Honda dealerships better not play the same game as their sister company (Acura) is doing now.
Also, Autoweek.com is now showing the new pictures of the new porsche SUV. I'm sure it will be out of my price range, but hey, I can still dream.