Honda Pilot 2003 through 2005

varmint

I think that Honda does recognize their customers. Honda sells to and makes money from the dealerships. Honda/Acura does not sell to the public. If the public has a beef with dealerships, then they have to take it up with the dealerships.

What does MSRP have to do with it? Why compare the cost you pay against MSRP? Why not compare the cost you pay to what the vehicle is worth? Right now, we don't even know what MSRP is going to be. How can we complain about the dealers charging it?

anonymous02

Have you tried a JEEP????

ranald

The Wrangler isn't bland, but it's a special case. It's about as much an SUV as a HMMV is, for the same reason. It's an adaptation of a military utility vehicle.

The Grand Cherokee is blander than bland. It's an egg. The Cherokee is no more. The Liberty seems pretty bland despite copying features from the not-bland Wrangler.

Just my $.02

anonymous02

"The Wrangler isn't bland, but it's a special case. It's about as much an SUV as a HMMV is, for the same reason. It's an adaptation of a military utility vehicle."

I'd say the Jeep is the original SUV. Right up there with the International Scout (I wish someone would come out with THAT design again, with modern underpinnings!)

varmint

What does it take to prevent an SUV from being labeled "bland"? Must manufacturers paint them hot pink and put 7' fins on the back?

craig63

What's the best guess at a release date for the Pilot?? I heard May/June 2002 from a local dealer today. Does that sound early to anyone?

redlenses

After sitting in the MDX 3rd row all I can say is ouch! The seat bottom is very low to the floor and the leg room is terrible. It is more uncomfortable that my 96 Odyssey. This seat is only suitable for small kids say under age 13. I do not think teens will want to be there for long. My needs for people and cargo space will be better served by the Toyota Sequoia.

Regards

rsholland

The main reason the MDX, and probably the Pilot too, does so well in this regard is that the height-width-length ratio is excellent compared to other SUVs. Both these vehicles are very wide and have very wide tracks, which is great in counteracting rollovers.

Bob

sjwsmw

Everything! This is what future values are based upon. As the value of a vehicle declines, it comes down from the MSRP, not the price paid. I don't think that the buyer of a used car three years down the road will care if the original owner paid more than the MSRP. Nor is that extra amount in any ones valuation of the vehicle.

I look forward to owning the so-called bland Honda Pilot. But I refuse to pay over the MSRP. I purchased an early model 1999 Acura TL with similar dealer game playing and got it finally for MSRP. I just sold it and am very happy I didn't pay the extra markup, the new owner would have laughed at me if I tried to pass that on to him.

Now, does anyone know if the the Pilot will have a flip-up rear window??

theracoon

My dealer is saying the same thing. I was told they were expecting to have the first Pilot arrive by June 1, 2002.

bvickster1

Went to the Chicago auto show on Sunday, Feb 10. The Pilot was on a rotating deck and attendees did not have access to the vehicle.

Some thoughts on what I saw....(understanding that the vehicle is still pre-production and subject to change)

1. The Pilot is not longer than the MDX and may be slightly shorter. Unable to actually measure, but walked off the length. Pilot was not wider than the MDX.

2. The brushed chrome (?) on the steering wheel and doors looked pretty good.

3. The Pilot had the DVD and not the navigation system.

4. The second/third row seats seemed to be exact replicas of the MDX although it looked like you could enter both sides of the car to get to the third row.

5. The color is impressive (with metallic), but may not be available in production.

6. Announcer "guessed" that the MSRP would be $26,000 to $31,000. Leaking information from Honda to see response????

7. It did not appear that the back window was a flip up.

8. Seats looked comfortable, but who really knows.

9. Relatively small crowd around the Pilot compared to other new cars.

10. Storage space appeared to be a direct match with the MDX.

11. Rear air, etc.. was on the roof of the Pilot versus the console on the MDX.

No pictures unfortunately, but because you could not get inside, there would not be much to show.

bengelking

Just put down a fully-refundable deposit with my local dealer. It's subject to my test drive and overall impression of the vehicle. He also had little information other than "some time this summer". I'm the first one so I'll have my choice to take the first one or wait for the color I want.

mudturtl

I posted a message hear about three weeks ago that salesman told me they would have Pilots in April. More recently he told me March! I talked to the service manager and then the sales manager. Said they expected 4-5 in June. So I was lied to. Ordered my MDX last Friday. Build date is end of March. I have '98 Accord and 2000 Civic. Maybe they'll remember not to mislead me, if there is a next time. I would have waited but just tell the truth. Oh, the salesman is now with another dealer. Good luck to them.

will4271

Should the most up to date person be the fleet manager?

mhenderson1

I don't think that any cost is worth $4000-$10,000 over MSRP. If that's the case, then raise the MSRP bar and let the people judge whether the car is worth it. Today's consumer is more educated about invoice cost, MSRP, dealer holdback, rebates, incentives,..etc. They shouldn't try to fool us with these so-called additional charges used to just make a profit. The majority of consumers are not stupid. This is why we have the TOWNHALL as well as other sites. I like many others will wait for the Honda Pilot to arrive in dealerships, will take a hard look at the quality, craftmanship and look of the vehicle and see if it will meet my expectations. But, i fthe sign on the Pilot's window states one price and the dealer states something else well above that price, I'm walking. My theory is that Honda/Acura will be starting a trend of not accepting anything less than MSRP for their vehicles. Although they do offer more for a reduced price, we as american and canadian consumers are in tune with negotiating for even less. I think Honda/Acura will put an end to this art of negotiating (to achieve the ultimate goal of getting the vehicle at invoice or lower). They will also lower production drastically if demand gets too low for a particular vehicle and then unexpectedly announce a redesign of the vehicle to bring demand up. I feel that this will revolve every 2-3 years instead of 4-5 years which is done by american manufacturers. They too understand that consumers are becoming more educated to how the car selling process works, so they have to come up with a new gimmick (marketing stategy) to stay on top. I'm sure other manufactures will follow a similar marketing strategy soon. I'm not saying that I'm an expert on this, but I am suddenly noticing a change in how they are conducting business.

Subject Change:

An earlier response stated that the Pilot had brushed aluminum on the steering wheel. I was wondering, will this metal become hot during the hot summer months and cold during the winter months? If it does, this may be a nagging problem for some. I have a friend who has a Lexus IS 300, in which the transmission stick has a chrome metal ball at the end. He stated that it does tend to become hot when the temps are high. He has to wait until his car's interior has cooled down.

mark189

If your local dealer is charging $4,000 above MSRP, you should walk. But walk to another Honda dealer and get the vehicle you want at the bargain price of MSRP. Don't settle for a perceived bargain on an inferior product. Your ego might feel better day one, but with lower resale and higher repair bills, you're wallet won't end up feeling better in the long run.

As for waiting. Unless you put a deposit down, it's highly unlikely you'll ever see a Pilot on a dealers lot. They'll all be pre-sold to those people willing to make a few assumptions based on Honda's track record, and back it up with $500.

bengelking

I agree with the MSRP arguement. We have 6 Honda dealers in the city (Milwaukee) and two of them have charged $1,000 over MSRP for the Odyssey. The other four don't. Uneducated consumers pay the price. It pays to shop around. The dealer I'm with charges MSRP and gives any accessories at their cost. Anyone paying over MSRP is crazy. That is money out the window....especially down the road when re-sale time comes up.

Does anyone know if a sunroof/moonroof will be available? From the DVD entertainment pictures, it looks like not.

varmint

Mhenderson - I suspect that the brushed aluminum is actualy plastic painted and "brushed" to resemble actual metal.

carguy62

When you say "it's highly unlikely you'll ever see a Pilot on a dealers lot." I assume you mean initially.

The CR-V was pretty hot at intro but at least in my area, dealers have them now. In fact those I visited back when they arrived had at least one, it may have had a sold sign on it but they had it.

I suppose it could be different with the Pilot, and the Civic Si, and the Civic Hybrid, and the new Accord and the Civic 5 dr. H/B and.....

jvkalra

I haven't seen any news regarding Honda bringing in the Civic 5 door. Where did you see that?

jvkalra

I know the bland styling has been discussed a lot, but would like to add my 2 cents. I believe that Honda actually took their cue from the market leader Ford Explorer. The Explorer isn't going to change for another 4-5 years, why does Honda need to try and make the Pilot very stylish?

Basically, there simply isn't much competition styling wise in the mid-size SUV market. So Honda can have a plain looking Pilot and sell tons of them just because it's a Honda.

mark189

The Odyssey is three years old and there's still a waiting list. I expect the Pilot to be on a waiting list for at least as long.

That's based on my recollection that the Canadian plant can produce 120,000 to 160,000 (not sure, somewhere around that amount). That will be split between the MDX and Pilot. The Pilot could easily sell 160,000 alone.

craig63

A couple of days ago, I posted a note on trying to find out the latest release date. Just heard today from a guy who works in the Honda plant that production starts in April....in dealerships by June.

will4271

I also agree with you'll. If they ask for MSRP, just tell to keep it.

I don't believe that they will stock them on lots collecting dust. It almost resembles the "Dell Computer business approach". This is where it's built to order only. With low inventory, the dealer can sustain the price, manufactuers doesn't have to order extra parts to built SUV sitting there for dealer orders. All the process saves them money.

carguy62

Read it in one of the mags, either Motor Trend or C&D. A very small blurb. Unfortunately I can't wait for it.

anonymous02

"I also agree with you'll. If they ask for MSRP, just tell to keep it.

All the process saves them money."

If it saves them money, why not pass the savings on to the consumer? I agree, don't pay MSRP. If they don't budge on price, shop elsewhere.

anonymous02

Does the Pilot have a front bench seat?

I really would prefer that over buckets. The extra fanny room, and ability to seat 3 across is nice, just like in the '76 Monaco wagon (and others).

mhenderson1

I'm afraid in the near future that a new marketing strategy by these auto manufacturers and dealerships will make MSRP the starting point of negotiating. What do you all think?

anonymous02

I take it you mean start at MSRP and work your way down.

That is absolutely the minimum in today's market where there are so many choices.

mhenderson1

No, I mean that dealerships may start at MSRP as the bottom level and the consumer may have to negotiate his/her way out of not paying dealership mark-ups ($4,000-$10,000 above MSRP). If by chance a vehicle is not doing well in the market, a dealer may go below the MSRP price in which he can still make a 7-10% profit instead of a customer desired 2-5% profit.

Talking about all this money make me wander if I should quit my job and work in a dealership.

theracoon

Of course what you're describing is economic supply & demand at work. If I have something that you want, just how much you want it will determine how much I can get you to pay me. If you can drive across town and get the same item cheaper, then I'll be more willing to accept less in order to sell my item.

And since the demand for the MDX and Odyssey is very high, dealers are able to ask for more than MSRP and find people willing to pay that amount.

While you may think this is a trend, look at the huge discounts, rebates, and low interest offers from some automobile manufacturers who are trying to get you to buy their items. The fact that they feel a need to resort to such tactics suggest that their items are in low demand, as compared to the very strong demand for MDX and Odysseys.

I believe that initially it will be difficult to find a dealer saying that they are selling for less than MSRP on the Pilot. But if you look around enough, you'll eventually find one that will. Look at the Honda CR-V boards to see what some dealers are asking for the new CR-V...but also make sure you read the posts by people who paid a few hundred over invoice, and how they went about finding a dealer to sell for that amount.

The bottom line is that the dealer is going to try and get you to pay as much as possible for their vehicles, because that's how they make the most money. Being an informed buyer is the only way to defend yourself.

Of course the real question is: How much do you really want a Pilot?

ticktock4321

Front bench seats require an extra SRS device which equals greater cost which IMO makes it unlikely.

mhenderson1

I agree, but if Honda/Acura churns out significantly redesigned vehicles in a 2-3 year period instead of the standard 4-5 year period, demand will stay high, because the consumer is always looking for something fresh, stylish and new. I believe Honda Pilot will stay in high demand for at least 1.5-2 years. After two years, I am expecting a totally redesigned Pilot. One example: Acura did this with their previously designed TL sedan. From what i understand, they redesigned the vehicle even though it was still relatively in high demand. In 99', my wife was looking to buy one and they were backlogged for at least 8-9 months. But I guess we'll see when the other competitors come to the party.

robertsmx

Honda follows a 4-5 year redesign cycle, but the third-fourth year usually brings in some cosmetic changes and feature upgrades. For similar reasons, Accord was freshened up for 2001 model, but not redesigned. MDX would be in its third year now, and if Honda chooses to redesign it in a year or two, we might see some small changes a year or two before it is done.

mhenderson1

I thought the MDX was sold as a 2001 model, but released late in the fall of 2000. If that is true then this would be its second year. I spoke to a dealer a few weeks back who told me that the MDX will have a significant redesign (doesn't mean total) in late 2003 or early 2004 and that Acura would continue making this rotation every 2-3 years. If I'm wrong "So sorry" about my theory. In the words of the late Gilda Radner "Neeevvveeer Miiiinnndd".

bengelking

Economics 101 folks: People will pay what the market can bare. What's the difference if you pay $25k for a Pilot at MSRP and $25k for a Ford/GM/Chrysler SUV at or near invoice? Tell me what those vehicles will be worth in three years compared to a Honda? How about in five years when the warranty is gone and you're living in the shop with the other vehicles and the Honda just keeps on going. You get what you pay for.

Now, I agree that going above MSRP is insane and even though some dealers do it, there are enough Honda dealers out there that sell Odysseys and will sell Pilots at MSRP. The Japanese don't play the invoice game. All the American manufacturers do is inflate the MSRP to make consumers think they're getting a great deal. Let's compare apples to apples here guys. I'll take a Pilot with Honda's reputation and reliability at MSRP over any Explorer, GMC, Durango, Jeep, etc.

spartanman2

I live in suburban Chicago and am heading to the Chicago Auto Show tomorrow. Will get my first, in person, look at the Pilot. My wife drives a 99 CRV EX, so it will be easy for me to compare styling.

Interesting link..Type Keywords: Chicago Auto Show 2002---get a live feed, zoom the remote cam feed in on the Pilot; see how many people are checking it out.

redlenses

If history repeats itself with Honda pricing and consumer demand (Odyssey), we will see Honda dealers charging thousands over MSRP and an large number of buyers waiting in line willing to pay.

Cheers

Spyponder

Fortunately, you get what you pay for...

inky

Plant max capacity is 190,000 units per year but realisitcally appears to his 180,000 last year.
Not sure about Alabama. If it does 180,000 wow, but do not think that is the case. Anyone remember Hondas max capacity claim for Alabama.?
INKY
2003 prediction: 60,000 MDX,
80,000 pilot
150,000 Odyssey

carguy62

If you've got one Honda dealer you bet you'll be waiting and paying but if you are in a competitive market anything can happen.

I am pricing CR-Vs. Still a fairly hot vehicle but probably not like the Pilot will be but still I have had such wide variances of prices quoted to me because I have 15 dealers to choose from. Everything from MSRP to a few bucks over invoice.

One benefit of living in a big market.

spartanman2

Had the opportunity to see the Pilot, up close and personal, at the Chicago Auto Show yesterday.
Needless to say; based on the crowds response, styling, size...it will be a hit. There were ALOT of interested people.

I disagree with previous posts that suggest the Pilot is a first gen CRV on steroids. Internet pictures do not do it justice. There are enough distinguishing features to seperate it from the first generation CRV. My wife and I own a 99 CRV and if the Pilot were parked next to it in our gargage, I doubt anyone would say they looked the same. Even if one could subjectively make the argument they share common design features; Who cares!. The CRV has great styling; Why shouldn't the Pilot copy some features from its high demand sibling?.

Honda has another hot seller on their hands and they will and SHOULD demand MSRP, because they KNOW they'll get it....maybe not from some people who chat in this forum; but somebody else with a need and $$ to burn. Some dealers may initially have huge markups, and they KNOW some people will still buy it....Macro Economics 101. It's that simple. If you had Super Bowl tickets on the 50 yard line, and needed to sell them; would you ask face value?

I WAS on a waiting list for the new Pilot, but removed my name after purchasing an Acura TL-S. No regrets. I figured my wife's CRV would need replacement in a few years and it's likely the Pilot (or something similar) could replace it at that time. Down the road, after increased production, those of us who refuse to pay MSRP and simply wait, will probably be able to pay a negotiated price...and feel good about it.

jdlynch2

Thanks for your post Spartanman;

I also have my name on a list for the Pilot. However, because of the pictures I have seen on the internet I have been undecided on whether or not it will appeal to me. Your comment that the photographs don't do it any justice make me feel much better about my decision.

I am dedicated Honda person, and I need a good sized SUV. The Acura MDX is really my only other alternative but I can't really afford to pay $35,000 (base MSRP) for a vehicle.

I don't mind not having the other so-called luxury ammenities as long as I can get the size I need and Honda reliability in a relatively attractive package.

I still also have a deposit on an MDX just in case the Pilot does not do it for me. I just hope the Car Show in Louisville starts before my MDX hits my dealer and I have to make a decision to buy it or wait for the Pilot.

I am hungry for any information that is out there on the Pilot. Right now, at least for me, it is sight unseen. As they say, "a bird in the hand(MDX) is worth more than two in the bush (Pilot)."

Any other opinions or comments on my situation Spartanman?

spartanman2

At the Chicago Auto Show, I did not have an opportunity to sit in, or go over over it with a fine tooth comb (it was viewable only up close, on its turntable: no touching allowed). Size wise, its an MDX with more rear storage and better looking front. Price wise?.... We are all guessing. Lets just say salespeople were less informed than my fellow "Edmundites" who chat in this group.....

jdlynch-- If you own or have owned alot of Honda products, as have I, I doubt you'll be disappointed.

opus5

For those interested in one of the better close-ups of the new Pilot, go to the following link hosted by MSN Carpoint. Look for the Pilot under Surround Videos

http://en.carpoint.msn.ca/cias2002/multimedia.asp

stangelj

Thanks for the link opus5!

There is obviously more than one prototype out there. I like the look of red on the Pilot better than white, although the white one gives a better view of the tail-light treatment.

A question for everyone... There has been much discussion about styling of the Pilot, with most seeing it as fairly conseratiely styled, and some criticizing the Pilot because of that. My question is, which mid-size SUV priced under $30k U.S. do you think has better styling? There is no doubt (at least in my mind) that the MDX or BMW X5 are more nicely or sportingly styled, but they are in another price category. Also, the cute-utes seem to be more aggressively styled--but what about other mid-sized mid-priced SUVs? I don't think I would rate the Grand Cherokee, Toyota Highlander or Ford Explorer, for example, as leaps and bounds ahead in styling. I think those disappointed with the Pilot's styling are looking for BMW, Lexus or Acura styling for a Honda price. What do you think?

rsholland

is pointless to argue about. One man's passion is another man's poison. It's whatever floats your boat that counts.

Bob

stangelj

Agreed 100%, but that's what part of having this discussion board is for, to get everyone's opinion. There is no question that styling plays a large role in determining what vehicle people choose to buy.

mark189

Good point on competition. Most critics are comparing the styling with a hoped for vehicle, not the competition in this price range.

Certainly tastes vary, but I don't think there are many people that think the Higlander is attractive. Some do like the JGC, and the new Explorer is definitely improved. However, neither of those are competitive in terms of quality.

Besides, if you look at sales, I think unless a vehicle is a styling disaster (like the Aztec), it's not a sales killer. Just look at the Mercedes ML. It's homely at best, but still sells very well. This is especially true of import buyers that are mainly driven by quality, performance, and safety criteria.

The Pilot styling is conservative, which makes sense for is supposed to be a practical vehicle.

diploid

At least the "skidplates" don't look so out of place on the white as it does on that red prototype.