Sorry you think of us Americans as being "shallow" but manufacturers build to meet demand. If there was a huge demand for Isuzu Troopers, don't you think Isuzu would be selling more of them and not discontinuing the line? A lot less people want the truck based SUVs but since enough do, manufacturers will continue to build a few. To each his own I say. If some one wants a bit more utility with four wheel drive then the Pilot might be for them. If they want something else then go buy another vehicle.
Does it matter what category the Pilot is assumed to be under?
IF you need 7/8 passenger seating AND you need occasional AWD for on-road winter snow conditions AND you desire reasonable (20+ mpg average) fuel consumption AND you believe in the truth/perception of Honda reliability AND you have a budget in the $30K range AND you will never need to tow over 4,500 lbs or drive on anything more challenging than a fire-road THEN the Honda Pilot may well be the vehicle for you.
Doesn't matter if you call the Pilot a cute-ute, SUV lite, AWD minivan or POS for that matter. For a potentially large number of car buyers the functional capabilities of the Honda Pilot may give them the best overall single vehicle package that they can get in that price range. End of story.
Absolutely. Of course, when the subject becomes dominated by another vehicle it might be more appropriate for that discussion to go elsewhere. Also, everyone will agree that we all want the discussion to be enjoyable!
"I think I mentioned it before. In the US laws require a SRS for each front seat occupant. If there is a bench seat there would have to be three SRSs. More $, won't happen."
Pickups have bench seats. I like the bench seats in the new rams, theres still good storage room and you can seat 3 across.
I believe you have the front and rear differentials and the VTM case. The fluid changes are every 7,500 miles at about $80 a pop. Then, every 30K is the transmission at about $150, through the dealer. At least that is how my friends Acura MDX is.
Regarding the SRS, you wouldn't need three, of course, with a bench-seat, you'd just need a larger passenger side air-bag, like pickups and bench seat passenger cars have.
Today's vehicles are like fighter planes and rocket ships, right? You don't see 3 across seating in an F-15? How would you like to travel in a plane and have a bench seat, like our old school buses? Ever go to a ball game and sit in the bleachers? How many people "slide" over and crowd your space? If we really wanted bench seats, the freeways' would be full of car-pools and we'd have plenty of space! It's "my space" man...don't be invading it!
I'm sure there must be at least one or two others...
I think most people given the choice would avoid a bench seat due to poor comfort. One advantage a vehicle like the Odyssey has over the Pilot or any other SUV is 2nd row comfort of captains chairs over 2nd row bench. It's things like this that make the decision to go to the Pilot over Odyssey more difficult.
I agree with whoever said the Pilot is just a minivan with SUV looks and 4WD. There's nothing wrong with that though if you're looking for a vehicle that looks more macho, has 4WD, and can seat more than 5 in a pinch. There are trade-offs with whatever vehicle you go with. The car based SUVs do seem to be where the mass market is, and therefore where the money is.
Dear SSMINTON You said earlier "For those considering paying above MSRP for Pilot, shop around. After visiting numerous dealers in Southern California, I found one maintaining a legitimate sales list and guaranteeing sale at MSRP. My shopping is done! Now the hard part, I must wait for my Pilot to arrive."
I live in So California and would like to do what you did. I have not been able to find that dealer. I would be much obliged if you could email dealer that did this ... i would gladly give them my business also.
"Dated engine? Hmmm The Axiom which has the same engine as the trooper produces 230hp and 230lbs torque so your arguement that the pilot produces more power is pretty null."
My point exactly. If the engine is capable of producing much more power, why isn't it used in the Trooper? And if this same engine is more powerful in the Axiom than in the Trooper, doesn't that reiterate my argument that the Trooper's engine is dated?
The Axiom has a different intake manifold and computer program. So what is your point? Product planning knew the Trooper would not be continued so they didn't bother to put in the new manifold and computer. Maybe our definiting of "engine" is different but to me changing the manifold and computer doesn't change the engine. The "engine" itself is the same, besides are we here to drag race our SUVs?
The dvd based system is contained inside of the dash. There is no opening for playing dvd movies with this system. Also, the screen would be on the dash and that might prove to be a driving distraction.
"I think most people given the choice would avoid a bench seat due to poor comfort."
Comfort is the reason I am interested. I don't like being stuck in one place for a long trip. I would rather have some "wiggle room" to get comfortable. (My behind is not overly large, mind you, in fact...)
But I think the windows references are off a little. Windows 3.11 allowed for 32 bit file access, I don't think it was 32 bit OS? I think 95 was the start of the 32 bit OS's on Microsoft based PC's. I also believe that lineage started with NT, 2000, XP. NT was the first major redesign of the OS removing the DOS layer?
Are still based on the 16bit code of DOS. They just have nice eye candy onscreen. That is why they crash far more often than an NT based system that used 32bit and no Hardware access to the applications.
Your original post said NT 3.11, not 3.51, so I thought you were trying to link 3.11 to NT. Sorry to extend the off topic thread. I will go back to work.
Not that this will put this topic to rest. Using Diploids definition of "advanced," one would have to assume that in every engine, the horspower/torque rating was designed to be at the ragged edge of engine maximum. This is obviously not the case. Any aftermarket Honda Civic tuner knows that you can increase horsepower of any given motor by a large margin. The max-horsepower trade-off is often one of reliability. A less than 7% difference in torque/horsepower between the Pilot and Trooper does not relate to an advancement or dating of design. Let's see, dated technology; maybe iron block, 2 valve & pushrods, throttle-body injection, a distributor & spark plug wires, a throttle cable, what else?
If you use that scenario, would the Pilot engine be dated if the new MDX motor, simply due to a little boring-and-stroking generates 270hp? Would you consider the Pilot second-best? Why does the 'newer' Pilot get the 'dated' motor?
Diploid, you seem to be hanging by the proverbial thread. Maybe Honda knows that they are pushing their engines over their design limit, that is why the warranty period is so short! Perhaps that is why they already 'redesigned' the MDX motor!
This post is for bsm48, jcope, and any others looking for a Pilot in southern California. After much searching, Weseloh Honda of San Juan Capistrano (South Orange County) will not sell vehicles above sticker, including Odyssey and Pilot. I have placed an order for Pilot, $500 down, with guarantee of paying MSRP. However, I do not have any delivery specifics. My point of contact is Don Brown @ 949.636.6481. So far, my experience with Don has been excellent. Hope this helps...
I have both a Trooper and an MDX. The Trooper feels stronger off the line. Maybe it is the torque curve? I am not sure of the 0-60 times, but I bet they are close. The MDX is nice, don't get me wrong, handles like a sedan, lots of room/power. However the transmission isn't as quick to find gears and hold them, and the engine feels a little slower at low end speeds. I could go into a long comparison, but the short of it is that I like them both for their strengths. The MDX is new, so I have a lot more Trooper experience. Does the Pilot have the same motor as the MDX or the Odyssey? I know they are close, but dont' they have different power curves?
mkaye- "Diploid, you seem to be hanging by the proverbial thread. Maybe Honda knows that they are pushing their engines over their design limit, that is why the warranty period is so short! Perhaps that is why they already 'redesigned' the MDX motor!"
Or perhaps Honda has no problem selling every single MDX that they produce, unlike Isuzu, which has to bring itself to Hyundai levels to sell their vehicles.
"If you use that scenario, would the Pilot engine be dated if the new MDX motor, simply due to a little boring-and-stroking generates 270hp? Would you consider the Pilot second-best? Why does the 'newer' Pilot get the 'dated' motor?"
Yes. The Pilot's engine would be "dated" if the MDX received a modified version of that same engine.
As for the 'newer' Pilot getting the dated motor, it's because Honda wants to justify the price of the MDX. Extra leather and better quality material does not compensate for the rather large price gap between the base Pilot and a base MDX.
Unless they want to go down the same route that Isuzu took and offered the stronger version of the Trooper's engine in the Axiom...which worked *really* well.
"Or perhaps Honda has no problem selling every single MDX that they produce, unlike Isuzu, which has to bring itself to Hyundai levels to sell their vehicles. "
On this arguement, I would take it that you feel that the Ford Explorer is an outstanding vehicle, much better than the MDX since they've sold more Explorers per year than MDXs.
I haven't seen the torque curves of the MDX/Pilot v. Trooper, but if they are anything similar in design to the way honda makes all their engines, it would stand to reason that most of the power is at the upper end of the rev-band.
On a side note, the CRV in Europe and probably the pilot as well will be using ISUZU Diesel Engines...
MDX block produces something like 95% of peak torque from 2,000 - 5,000 rpms. The Ody/Pilot block has a less agessive set up, but it still fairly flat.
about my job is that I get to test drive the new Honda product before roll out. I am set to test the Pilot May 15th in DC. I am really looking forward to this!
Did you know that the Pathfinder's 240hp is only attainable above the max-shift point of the automatic transmission, so the "240hp" is merely a marketing tool, not having any real relevance.
-mike
PS: 5000rpms will be common when the Soccer Mom is racing from traffic-light to traffic light going from soccer practice to the blue-light specials @ K-mart!
I didn't say anything about the Isuzu warranty. I was referring to the Honda warranty. The Acura division gives a 4yr/50K warranty, why does Honda only provide 3yr/36K? Even Toyota, the 'other' Japanese benchmark goes 5yr/60K.
Warranty length is about two things: 1. Customer satisfaction and, 2. Caring about the customer.
So, it's really about one thing; the customer.
RE: Popularity. Just because a bunch of Lemmings go off the cliff, does that make it 'better?'
Paisan - That's a riot. How far from the peak is it geared?
Mkaye - A warranty is one way of reducing nervousness about buying a car that might break. This is how Huandai gets buyers. In effect they are saying, it doesn't matter if our cars break. We'll fix them for free.
So I disagree. They're about sales.
To answer your question: Why doesn't Honda offer a longer warranty? Because they don't need ease people's fears about things breaking.
I was trying to avoid getting into Honda versus Isuzu discussion, but couldn't resist any more. sbcooke:Does the Pilot have the same motor as the MDX or the Odyssey? Pilot, Odyssey and MDX share the same engine, a 3471 cc V6 SOHC VTEC. In case of Odyssey, the engine has been modified to use regular gasoline and develops its 240 horses at 5500 rpm. I think Pilot would use the same version. The MDX version develops its 240 horses at 5250 rpm and peak torque at 3000 rpm (to 5000 rpm).
Paisan:On this arguement, I would take it that you feel that the Ford Explorer is an outstanding vehicle, much better than the MDX since they've sold more Explorers per year than MDXs. Success cannot be measured in units sold, but inventory turnaround. If inventory turnaround is great, marketing gimmicks are not required. Those gimmicks usually start with lower financing, rebates, and so on. If even that doesn't work, exceptional steps are taken, sometimes involving greater financial risks, as is the case with offering 10 year 120K warranty on Isuzu drivetrain. Why do you think Chrysler, Kia and Hyundai are offering long term warranty? Honda will do it too, if they ever need a marketing tool, or if people start to raise their eyebrows about reliability of Honda's products. It ain't now.
Paisan:I haven't seen the torque curves of the MDX/Pilot v. Trooper, but if they are anything similar in design to the way honda makes all their engines, it would stand to reason that most of the power is at the upper end of the rev-band. You do not know about Honda engines, that is for sure. I have not seen torque curve for the MDX engine either, but here are the specifications, Peak Power: 240 HP @ 5250 rpm Peak Torque: 245 lb.-ft @ 3000 rpm to 5000 rpm (95% of the peak torque is available from 2000 rpm to 5500 rpm).
The Honda 3.5 liter V6 is based on the 3.2 liter V6 found in Acura TL/CL Type-S. The compression has been dropped from 10.5:1 to 10.0:1, and the engine tuned for more torque at lower revs. Want to see the torque curve of the engine it is based upon? Click Here. You are not going to see better torque curves, if you do, let me know.
Paisan:On a side note, the CRV in Europe and probably the pilot as well will be using ISUZU Diesel Engines... I doubt Honda plans on selling Pilot in Europe, but CRV may use Isuzu diesel for a year or two. Honda is about to launch 3/5 door Civic with 1.7 liter diesel (called Civic CDTI) pumping out 100 HP @ 4400 rpm and 163 lb.-ft @ 1750 rpm, with a class leading 57 mpg combined mileage rating (compared to 52 mpg for Golf TDI and others). As far as diesels go, I have a feeling that it represents Isuzu's future. But Honda is going to start using its own diesel engines in a year or two. It makes sense for them. Honda's reliability record has been challenged in recent years by one model in its lineup, Isuzu Rodeo. Want to see proof? Click Here. Based on the reliability index ratings the website provides, Passport singlehandedly seems to be the reason in pushing Honda behind Toyota in overall rating since 1994. Check out the blood red color, it does not speak highly of Isuzu in any way. On the other hand, Isuzu has had a very reliable vehicle in its lineup, and guess which one is it... Isuzu Oasis, yes, the rebadged Honda Odyssey.
anonymous02: Who goes over 3500 in an SUV???? Depends on gearing. More SUVs are now producing their peak power near 6000 rpm. GM's new 4.2 liter/I6 delivers its peak power at 6000 rpm and Nissan's 3.5 liter V6 delivers its own at 6000 rpm as well. There is a reason why Honda made sure MDX got its power at 5250 rpm (5500 rpm in case of Odyssey), right where it might be considered a norm, and attainable. For around town driving, 2500-3000 rpm is about what one needs in almost any car, except for merging on highways.
The comment above stated that a manufacturer (Honda in this example) need not provide a long warranty because they do not need to use this as a tool to suck in buyers. In contrast they were hinting that Isuzu, with the 10yr/100k warranty requires such methods to get people to buy.
While it may be true that Honda need not extend warranties due to its reputation as a quality manufacturer, I think it is a stretch to apply the same logic to the Ford Mustang!
The Ford Mustang comes with a IIRC a 4yr/50k mile warranty. This is not a testament to the quality of this vehicle, it is just not within Ford's cost structure on the Mustang to issue a more lucrative warranty.
You have to be impressed that Isuzu can go that long on a warranty, it shows faith in a quality product.
FWIW, Yes I own a Trooper. I am going to be replacing it in the next year, as the wife wants 7 seats, it is a '96 with 104k miles on it, no problems. The Pilot will get a look but that is probably about it. Looks like the Aviator, with it's 300 hp V8 is in the #1 slot.
"You do not know about Honda engines, that is for sure. I have not seen torque curve for the MDX engine either, but here are the specifications, Peak Power: 240 HP @ 5250 rpm Peak Torque: 245 lb.-ft @ 3000 rpm to 5000 rpm (95% of the peak torque is available from 2000 rpm to 5500 rpm)."
I would rate anything over 3000 as of little use to an SUV, or to a family hauler for that matter. Most American drivers want low RPM torque and power (read LOWER THAN 2000 RPM)!
"Peak Power: 240 HP @ 5250 rpm Peak Torque: 245 lb.-ft @ 3000 rpm to 5000 rpm (95% of the peak torque is available from 2000 rpm to 5500 rpm).
... Honda is about to launch 3/5 door Civic with 1.7 liter diesel (called Civic CDTI) pumping out 100 HP @ 4400 rpm and 163 lb.-ft @ 1750 rpm"
Well, 1750 RPM is better. Not bad numbers out of a small motor. So, when will a motor with over 200 lb-ft torque at less than 2000 RPM be available in the US?
Well, the Honda 3.5 liter V6 (MDX) gives you more than 232 lb.-ft at 2000 rpm. In fact, in all likelihood, the V6 is producing 200 lb.-ft off idle engine speed. Now, if this engine was sold in Japan, I would have the torque curve to back up my statement. As for SUVs not needing engine speed past 3000 rpm, you need to understand why rpm are desired. Even diesels make their power in 4000-4500 rpm, and shifting an 18-speed cog in SUVs may not be what most would like. When you want acceleration, and good gearing to go with it, you need additional rpm. Can't do without it. I do not remember what speed GM 4.2/I6 gets with low gear on at redline, but if it were 20 mph at 6000 rpm, you would get only 10 mph in first gear at 3000 rpm, imagine getting upto 50-55 mph on freeway.
schulhof1: I do not buy the Warranty opinion listed above... In contrast they were hinting that Isuzu, with the 10yr/100k warranty requires such methods to get people to buy. It is not a matter of you buying opinions, it is something to be understood. Do you think Isuzu, Kia, Hyundai and Chrysler (7-year) are smiling on the fact that they offer the longest warranty? If so, why is the warranty non-transferable? In case of Chrysler, why is it limited time opportunity? Why is DCX not backing up its Mercedes lineup with similar warranty package, as it is doing with Dodge and Chrysler badged products? And I am sure, car like Viper, which they probably sell before manufacturing, is excluded. When you have answers to these questions, let me know.
The Ford Mustang comes with a IIRC a 4yr/50k mile warranty. This is not a testament to the quality of this vehicle, it is just not within Ford's cost structure on the Mustang to issue a more lucrative warranty. This provides you the answer along with understanding the fact that Mustang sells itself. When a products sells on its own, you wouldn't see automakers willing to make commitments that may challenge their finances in future. Even better example is VW. A year or two ago, they were offering 2 year/24K bumper to bumper warranty on VWs (but 4 year/50K on Audis). Was this an indication of lack of their faith in their products badged as VW? They provided 10 year/100K drivetrain warranty on VWs (but 4 year/50K on Audis), while most of those engines/transmission were shared between the two badges!
Warranties are in no way the testament to greater or poorer quality. It is usually more about a boost to sell vehicles, more often than not, to try and overcome their image from the past.
Comments
Sorry you think of us Americans as being "shallow" but manufacturers build to meet demand. If there was a huge demand for Isuzu Troopers, don't you think Isuzu would be selling more of them and not discontinuing the line? A lot less people want the truck based SUVs but since enough do, manufacturers will continue to build a few. To each his own I say. If some one wants a bit more utility with four wheel drive then the Pilot might be for them. If they want something else then go buy another vehicle.
IF you need 7/8 passenger seating AND you need occasional AWD for on-road winter snow conditions AND you desire reasonable (20+ mpg average) fuel consumption AND you believe in the truth/perception of Honda reliability AND you have a budget in the $30K range AND you will never need to tow over 4,500 lbs or drive on anything more challenging than a fire-road THEN the Honda Pilot may well be the vehicle for you.
Doesn't matter if you call the Pilot a cute-ute, SUV lite, AWD minivan or POS for that matter. For a potentially large number of car buyers the functional capabilities of the Honda Pilot may give them the best overall single vehicle package that they can get in that price range. End of story.
Absolutely. Of course, when the subject becomes dominated by another vehicle it might be more appropriate for that discussion to go elsewhere. Also, everyone will agree that we all want the discussion to be enjoyable!
tidester
Host
SUVs
Sounds costly??
Pickups have bench seats. I like the bench seats in the new rams, theres still good storage room and you can seat 3 across.
Regarding the SRS, you wouldn't need three, of course, with a bench-seat, you'd just need a larger passenger side air-bag, like pickups and bench seat passenger cars have.
So, does anybody know why they don't make these any more?
I know myself, my father, my father-in-law, my brother, and two friends would prefer a front bench on an SUV. I am sure there are others.
You don't see 3 across seating in an F-15?
How would you like to travel in a plane and have a bench seat, like our old school buses?
Ever go to a ball game and sit in the bleachers? How many people "slide" over and crowd your space?
If we really wanted bench seats, the freeways' would be full of car-pools and we'd have plenty of space!
It's "my space" man...don't be invading it!
I think most people given the choice would avoid a bench seat due to poor comfort. One advantage a vehicle like the Odyssey has over the Pilot or any other SUV is 2nd row comfort of captains chairs over 2nd row bench. It's things like this that make the decision to go to the Pilot over Odyssey more difficult.
I agree with whoever said the Pilot is just a minivan with SUV looks and 4WD. There's nothing wrong with that though if you're looking for a vehicle that looks more macho, has 4WD, and can seat more than 5 in a pinch. There are trade-offs with whatever vehicle you go with. The car based SUVs do seem to be where the mass market is, and therefore where the money is.
You said earlier
"For those considering paying above MSRP for Pilot, shop around. After visiting numerous dealers in Southern California, I found one maintaining a legitimate sales list and guaranteeing sale at MSRP. My shopping is done! Now the hard part, I must wait for my Pilot to arrive."
I live in So California and would like to do what you did. I have not been able to find that dealer. I would be much obliged if you could email dealer that did this ... i would gladly give them my business also.
Also, I spoke with my dealer yesterday. He said that the EX will have the moonroof and fog lights as options.
My point exactly. If the engine is capable of producing much more power, why isn't it used in the Trooper? And if this same engine is more powerful in the Axiom than in the Trooper, doesn't that reiterate my argument that the Trooper's engine is dated?
-mike
Afterall most of these "SUVs" are racing to get the blue light special @ the One-day Only sales! heee heee
-mike
Jerry
Are there any who sell Odessey at or below MSRP?
Thanks in advance for the info.
Comfort is the reason I am interested. I don't like being stuck in one place for a long trip. I would rather have some "wiggle room" to get comfortable. (My behind is not overly large, mind you, in fact...)
Are they still in business after the boycott and all?
I wish there was a way to setup a poll on this site.
No, but you countered my argument that the Trooper's engine is dated by offering the Axiom as an example.
That's like saying Windows98 isn't dated because Windows2000 is a modified version of it.
Last time I checked, the pilot's engine used pistons and cylinders, which just sounds too dated for me! :-)
The liniage is:
Dos->Windows 3.1->95->98->ME all 16bit OSs
NT 3.11->NT4->win2K->XP all 32bit OSs
Besides, like I said the Axiom changes were very very minor as far as engines go.
-mike
-mike
-mike
A less than 7% difference in torque/horsepower between the Pilot and Trooper does not relate to an advancement or dating of design. Let's see, dated technology; maybe iron block, 2 valve & pushrods, throttle-body injection, a distributor & spark plug wires, a throttle cable, what else?
If you use that scenario, would the Pilot engine be dated if the new MDX motor, simply due to a little boring-and-stroking generates 270hp? Would you consider the Pilot second-best? Why does the 'newer' Pilot get the 'dated' motor?
Diploid, you seem to be hanging by the proverbial thread. Maybe Honda knows that they are pushing their engines over their design limit, that is why the warranty period is so short! Perhaps that is why they already 'redesigned' the MDX motor!
-mike
"Diploid, you seem to be hanging by the proverbial thread. Maybe Honda knows that they are pushing their engines over their design limit, that is why the warranty period is so short! Perhaps that is why they already 'redesigned' the MDX motor!"
Or perhaps Honda has no problem selling every single MDX that they produce, unlike Isuzu, which has to bring itself to Hyundai levels to sell their vehicles.
"If you use that scenario, would the Pilot engine be dated if the new MDX motor, simply due to a little boring-and-stroking generates 270hp? Would you consider the Pilot second-best? Why does the 'newer' Pilot get the 'dated' motor?"
Yes. The Pilot's engine would be "dated" if the MDX received a modified version of that same engine.
As for the 'newer' Pilot getting the dated motor, it's because Honda wants to justify the price of the MDX. Extra leather and better quality material does not compensate for the rather large price gap between the base Pilot and a base MDX.
Unless they want to go down the same route that Isuzu took and offered the stronger version of the Trooper's engine in the Axiom...which worked *really* well.
On this arguement, I would take it that you feel that the Ford Explorer is an outstanding vehicle, much better than the MDX since they've sold more Explorers per year than MDXs.
-mike
On a side note, the CRV in Europe and probably the pilot as well will be using ISUZU Diesel Engines...
-mike
Jerry
-mike
PS: 5000rpms will be common when the Soccer Mom is racing from traffic-light to traffic light going from soccer practice to the blue-light specials @ K-mart!
The Acura division gives a 4yr/50K warranty, why does Honda only provide 3yr/36K?
Even Toyota, the 'other' Japanese benchmark goes 5yr/60K.
Warranty length is about two things: 1. Customer satisfaction and, 2. Caring about the customer.
So, it's really about one thing; the customer.
RE: Popularity. Just because a bunch of Lemmings go off the cliff, does that make it 'better?'
Mkaye - A warranty is one way of reducing nervousness about buying a car that might break. This is how Huandai gets buyers. In effect they are saying, it doesn't matter if our cars break. We'll fix them for free.
So I disagree. They're about sales.
To answer your question: Why doesn't Honda offer a longer warranty? Because they don't need ease people's fears about things breaking.
sbcooke:Does the Pilot have the same motor as the MDX or the Odyssey?
Pilot, Odyssey and MDX share the same engine, a 3471 cc V6 SOHC VTEC. In case of Odyssey, the engine has been modified to use regular gasoline and develops its 240 horses at 5500 rpm. I think Pilot would use the same version. The MDX version develops its 240 horses at 5250 rpm and peak torque at 3000 rpm (to 5000 rpm).
Paisan:On this arguement, I would take it that you feel that the Ford Explorer is an outstanding vehicle, much better than the MDX since they've sold more Explorers per year than MDXs.
Success cannot be measured in units sold, but inventory turnaround. If inventory turnaround is great, marketing gimmicks are not required. Those gimmicks usually start with lower financing, rebates, and so on. If even that doesn't work, exceptional steps are taken, sometimes involving greater financial risks, as is the case with offering 10 year 120K warranty on Isuzu drivetrain. Why do you think Chrysler, Kia and Hyundai are offering long term warranty? Honda will do it too, if they ever need a marketing tool, or if people start to raise their eyebrows about reliability of Honda's products. It ain't now.
Paisan:I haven't seen the torque curves of the MDX/Pilot v. Trooper, but if they are anything similar in design to the way honda makes all their engines, it would stand to reason that most of the power is at the upper end of the rev-band.
You do not know about Honda engines, that is for sure. I have not seen torque curve for the MDX engine either, but here are the specifications,
Peak Power: 240 HP @ 5250 rpm
Peak Torque: 245 lb.-ft @ 3000 rpm to 5000 rpm (95% of the peak torque is available from 2000 rpm to 5500 rpm).
The Honda 3.5 liter V6 is based on the 3.2 liter V6 found in Acura TL/CL Type-S. The compression has been dropped from 10.5:1 to 10.0:1, and the engine tuned for more torque at lower revs. Want to see the torque curve of the engine it is based upon? Click Here. You are not going to see better torque curves, if you do, let me know.
Paisan:On a side note, the CRV in Europe and probably the pilot as well will be using ISUZU Diesel Engines...
I doubt Honda plans on selling Pilot in Europe, but CRV may use Isuzu diesel for a year or two. Honda is about to launch 3/5 door Civic with 1.7 liter diesel (called Civic CDTI) pumping out 100 HP @ 4400 rpm and 163 lb.-ft @ 1750 rpm, with a class leading 57 mpg combined mileage rating (compared to 52 mpg for Golf TDI and others). As far as diesels go, I have a feeling that it represents Isuzu's future. But Honda is going to start using its own diesel engines in a year or two. It makes sense for them. Honda's reliability record has been challenged in recent years by one model in its lineup, Isuzu Rodeo. Want to see proof? Click Here.
Based on the reliability index ratings the website provides, Passport singlehandedly seems to be the reason in pushing Honda behind Toyota in overall rating since 1994. Check out the blood red color, it does not speak highly of Isuzu in any way. On the other hand, Isuzu has had a very reliable vehicle in its lineup, and guess which one is it... Isuzu Oasis, yes, the rebadged Honda Odyssey.
anonymous02: Who goes over 3500 in an SUV????
Depends on gearing. More SUVs are now producing their peak power near 6000 rpm. GM's new 4.2 liter/I6 delivers its peak power at 6000 rpm and Nissan's 3.5 liter V6 delivers its own at 6000 rpm as well. There is a reason why Honda made sure MDX got its power at 5250 rpm (5500 rpm in case of Odyssey), right where it might be considered a norm, and attainable. For around town driving, 2500-3000 rpm is about what one needs in almost any car, except for merging on highways.
The comment above stated that a manufacturer (Honda in this example) need not provide a long warranty because they do not need to use this as a tool to suck in buyers. In contrast they were hinting that Isuzu, with the 10yr/100k warranty requires such methods to get people to buy.
While it may be true that Honda need not extend warranties due to its reputation as a quality manufacturer, I think it is a stretch to apply the same logic to the Ford Mustang!
The Ford Mustang comes with a IIRC a 4yr/50k mile warranty. This is not a testament to the quality of this vehicle, it is just not within Ford's cost structure on the Mustang to issue a more lucrative warranty.
You have to be impressed that Isuzu can go that long on a warranty, it shows faith in a quality product.
FWIW, Yes I own a Trooper. I am going to be replacing it in the next year, as the wife wants 7 seats, it is a '96 with 104k miles on it, no problems. The Pilot will get a look but that is probably about it. Looks like the Aviator, with it's 300 hp V8 is in the #1 slot.
Peak Power: 240 HP @ 5250 rpm
Peak Torque: 245 lb.-ft @ 3000 rpm to 5000 rpm (95% of the peak torque is available from 2000 rpm to 5500 rpm)."
I would rate anything over 3000 as of little use to an SUV, or to a family hauler for that matter. Most American drivers want low RPM torque and power (read LOWER THAN 2000 RPM)!
Peak Torque: 245 lb.-ft @ 3000 rpm to 5000 rpm (95% of the peak torque is available from 2000 rpm to 5500 rpm).
...
Honda is about to launch 3/5 door Civic with 1.7 liter diesel (called Civic CDTI) pumping out 100 HP @ 4400 rpm and 163 lb.-ft @ 1750 rpm"
Well, 1750 RPM is better. Not bad numbers out of a small motor. So, when will a motor with over 200 lb-ft torque at less than 2000 RPM be available in the US?
????
As for SUVs not needing engine speed past 3000 rpm, you need to understand why rpm are desired. Even diesels make their power in 4000-4500 rpm, and shifting an 18-speed cog in SUVs may not be what most would like. When you want acceleration, and good gearing to go with it, you need additional rpm. Can't do without it. I do not remember what speed GM 4.2/I6 gets with low gear on at redline, but if it were 20 mph at 6000 rpm, you would get only 10 mph in first gear at 3000 rpm, imagine getting upto 50-55 mph on freeway.
I do not buy the Warranty opinion listed above... In contrast they were hinting that Isuzu, with the 10yr/100k warranty requires such methods to get people to buy.
It is not a matter of you buying opinions, it is something to be understood. Do you think Isuzu, Kia, Hyundai and Chrysler (7-year) are smiling on the fact that they offer the longest warranty? If so, why is the warranty non-transferable? In case of Chrysler, why is it limited time opportunity? Why is DCX not backing up its Mercedes lineup with similar warranty package, as it is doing with Dodge and Chrysler badged products? And I am sure, car like Viper, which they probably sell before manufacturing, is excluded. When you have answers to these questions, let me know.
The Ford Mustang comes with a IIRC a 4yr/50k mile warranty. This is not a testament to the quality of this vehicle, it is just not within Ford's cost structure on the Mustang to issue a more lucrative warranty.
This provides you the answer along with understanding the fact that Mustang sells itself. When a products sells on its own, you wouldn't see automakers willing to make commitments that may challenge their finances in future.
Even better example is VW. A year or two ago, they were offering 2 year/24K bumper to bumper warranty on VWs (but 4 year/50K on Audis). Was this an indication of lack of their faith in their products badged as VW? They provided 10 year/100K drivetrain warranty on VWs (but 4 year/50K on Audis), while most of those engines/transmission were shared between the two badges!
Warranties are in no way the testament to greater or poorer quality. It is usually more about a boost to sell vehicles, more often than not, to try and overcome their image from the past.