Saturn ION

uga91

I just read the article and the plant shuts down for 2 weeks every July anyway--so really the plant is only closing for 2 weeks. As far as changes go, it's been known to happen. When Honda redesigned the Civic for 2001, its new suspension system was not well received. Honda changed it back to the way it used to be for 2002--so big changes can happen. With the Ion, most complaints seem to revolve around the interior. I'm sure Saturn could make many changes to pacify the loudest critics pretty easily. They can update other issues over time--like Ford did.

alpha01

"Honda changed it back to the way it used to be for 2002--so big changes can happen."

I didnt realize Honda changed the suspension setup in the 2002. Can you provide a link to where you got this information? Even so, Honda's pockets, especially where the NA market is considered, are a lot deeper than Saturns.

~alpha

ab348

Whatever the motivation, it's not a good time to be a Saturn line worker. The Spring Hill plant shutting down for 4 weeks follows the L-series plant in Delaware being shut down for a time as well (might still be closed, dunno). They are having a tough time selling cars right now. The Ion sold 43K units in the first 5 months of this year as compared to 58K of the old style last year. That has to be a huge disappointment for GM. You have to wonder how long they will carry Saturn's losses.

lngtonge18

Honda firmed up the suspension in 02 after complaints it was too soft. They did not change the design back to the old wishbones though. Still, it was unheard of for Honda to make a change that early. They made even more changes for 03, again unheard of. In the past, Honda has always made changes for the 4th year, so that means we should expect even more changes in 04. If that occurs, it would mean Honda has had to tweak the Civic every year of the current model, which shows Honda made some mistakes this time around and is fighting hard to stay competitive.

regfootball

you should spend a day off and drive the two cars on extended test drives back to back.

drive the snot out of them.

after a certain amount of time in each car, one of them will feel 'right'.

when that happens, throw everyone else's opinion out the window and go with your gut.

If it was me i would also test drive many of the other fine competition in this class.

But if it was my money, the rebates and deals offered on the Ion would be a pull in that direction. Likewise, the upscale feel of some of the competition is a pull, too.

The day I went and test drove the Mazda 6 I thought it was my next car for sure, but I followed that up with a Saab 9-3 test drive and even though the 6 is wonderful, the 9-3 had a more interesting feel to it overall. Had I taken out an A4, BMW 3 and CTS also I would have had more choices.

Buying a car is like finding a wife or girlfriend. Finding 'the one' if you are too obsessive about it would take forever. Just go out and test drive a few, and at some point, one of them feels right. You go with it for a while and hope it works out.

soggydog

I just came back from a 2400 mile round trip and the only ION I saw was smashed into the side of older honda. It was dark blue and looked like it was a total loss. I don't think anyone in the ION was hurt, but the driver of the other car was being looked at by EMS.

uga91

Thanks--I mis spoke when I said Honda changed the whole suspension, but I knew they changed it somehow. All I meant was that car companies can make "unheard of changes" if they want to, like Honda did. With all Saturn has riding on the Ion, I feel it would very bad if they did not take advantage of the down time to retool the line in a way that would make at least a few changes to quiet some of the loudest critics. Like I said, they don't have to change the whole car, they can start with some interior improvements.

dindak

A new steering wheel and some minor changes to the dash would do a lot for the car.

vuefor2

I think the Ion is a far better car than the S-series was. I can't understand why it's not selling as well. Of course car sales are down over all so that has to be part of the problem.

lngtonge18

I think there are many issues that are combining to hurt Ion sales. In the past, I think people felt Saturn offered higher quality than the rest of the GM line since it was so highly rated in customer satisfaction. They were less worried about taking a risk on a Saturn than on a Chevy. Now, it seems GM is improving quality control company wide and Saturn may have lost this "superior" quality edge in consumer's eyes. Secondly, Saturn's reluctance to offer rebates until recently killed Saturn's value compared to the competition. Third, the quirky styling of the Ion makes it more of a niche player than the S-series. Fourth, car sales are down due to the economy. And lastly, Hyundai and Kia's increase in market share has hit Saturn pretty hard. Taking all this into account, it's no wonder Ion sales have been relatively dismal. Competition is stiff in the economy class and Saturn just has very little making it stand out.

dindak

I think the main issue with the ION is that it is just average. There is nothing making people really want one so by default they go to Civic / Corolla. Protege, Sentra, Neon, Focus are all in that same boat from what I can see. I think the Redline ION will help bring some attention to the car, but some small revisions, funky colors and more radical marketing wouldn't hurt either.

regfootball

"new steering wheel and minor dash changes"

hopefully that includes moving the gauges

"Third, the quirky styling of the Ion makes it more of a niche player than the S-series"

that's it in a nutshell right there.

If I could get a bright yellow or bright red Ion sedan with the colored cloth inserts the coupe has, that would help I bet.

I would consider the Ion, given the current incentives. Maybe give it a year and few tweaks and Ion sales will hit the stride. Better advertising would help.

alpha01

Acutally, I think that...almost all of the other cars you mention have at least one standout strength...which the ION doesnt....
If they don't go to Civic/Corolla, they go to Protege for its high fun to drive quotient and spades of interior room, the Sentra for its 165hp engine and dual chamber head/chest side airbags, and the Focus because it is a Ten Best winner and highest rated small/compact car by Consumer Reports- its just not recommended for its horrid track record. (With a big enough discount, Id buy a Focus with an extended warranty and side airbags- not a bad choice at all.)

~alpha

dunworth

With very few exceptions, if you look at all of the most popular cars in any size class they all have one thing in common - pleasant and balanced design. The Japanese volume products are all conservative as are the Focus and Cavalier etc.

The Pontiacs are weird with the cladding etc but the basic cars are pleasant (like the Alero). In its best year the, the old S series sold 300,000 units. It was different but conservative overall.

Even the first Taurus, which was radical for the time, was a well balanced design. The 1996 googly eyed redo destroyed the Taurus. The current one is much better but the damage is done.

Even the French won't buy really weird as some of the truly odd designs from Renault are getting scrapped. You can be slightly ungainly like the new Camry or Accord (IMHO). But really weird does not sell.

The Echo got redone for 2003 making it far more normal on the outside. In Canada we will get a hatchback version which looks better. The Echo sells half the volume of the old conservatively styled Tercel.

The Ion is a good car, and its design would be fine for a low volume niche vehcile. But for a volume vehicle - Saturn's bread and butter -it has a very controversial design, arguably a sedan version of the Aztec. The Aztec has been a disaster in the marketplace despite being a decent vehicle. Meanwhile its more conservatively styled Buick Rendevouz stablemate outsells it by several times.

I hope I am wrong about Saturn, because if the Ion does not take off, the whole division will be in jeopardy.

dindak

alpha : Ya, but they are heavy on incentives. Only Corolla and Civic don't really have any. Focus is recall city, Protege is not real refined, Sentra is smallish and lacks style. They all have issues.

dunworth : I don't think the ION is all that "wierd". Only odd things are the steering wheel and the center stack which is not all that unusual anymore.

alpha01

I agree with all your comments on those cars. My only point was that most of the IONs competitors have at least ONE MAJOR selling point going for them, and the ION seems to have no standout features (at least not any that are a boost to its overall character/performance/image). I think its a decent car, but its comparative advantages arent strong enough.

~alpha

dunworth

A good review on the new Ion quad coupe.

http://www.canadiandriver.com/testdrives/03ion3vti.htm

dindak

Ya, for the most part I agree. I guess it's major points are polymer panels and top rated sales / customer service. One could argue the 140hp Ecotec is near tops in power also.

dunworth : Lack of sportyness seems to be the main issue with 2 or 3 reviews I have read. Perhaps the Redline Quad Coupe fill fill that void.

uga91

Thanks for the article. The Atlanta Journal-Constitution ran a review on the Ion Quad Coupe 2 with manual today and it was a fairly vanilla article. Nothing really critical of the Ion, nothing really great about it, either. The local guy does not put too much research in his reviews anyway. I do not think it is on the ajc.com web site yet. I think they put the reviews on the web site the week after it runs in the paper--I guess to sell today's paper.

uga91

I checked autosite again and they have updated sales figures for May 2003. Not good if you're an Ion fan! Sales of the Ion were 7763 units--down from 7825 units in April. The L-Series sold 8391 units. Outselling the Ion last month were the usuals: Corolla, Civic, Cavalier, and Focus as well as Neon, Elantra, Jetta and even Sentra. The Ion outsold the Protege, Spectra, Lancer, Sunfire and Aerio. One thing I found interesting, though, was that for May 2003 vs May 2002, sales of Civic, Cavalier, Focus, Elantra, Jetta, Spectra, Protege, Sentra and Sunfire were all down vs LY.

uga91

I find it interesting that autosite list all forms of the car as a single sales figure. In other words, if Honda sold 29,143 Civics (like it did in May 2003), it is listed for all forms of the Civic. They say Honda sold 29,143 coupes and 29,143 hybrids as well. So, the sales figures for cars like Civic, Cavalier, Focus, Elantra and Protege do not quite tell the whole story. The figures listed report the sales of all styles, be it a sedan, coupe, hatch back, wagon, or convertible. This is interesting because they do not do this with Ion--I guess because the Ions are listed as "Ion Sedan" and "Ion Quad Coupe" so they separate the figures. The quad coupe sold 2369 units last month. So, if they had combined the figures, it would not have changed too much. Ion would overtake Jetta and Sentra--and be only 38 units behind Elantra. I feel this is significant because it shows that not all sales of the competing cars were, IMO, direct competitors of the Ion. I doubt anyone shopping for a Civic Coupe, Focus wagon or Elantra hatch back even considered the Ion sedan.

ab348

Aside from the center gauges and goofy steering wheel, the other very bad thing about the Ion's design is the entire greenhouse/roof workout. Those roof rail inserts need to go, and the shape of the rear side windows/C-pillar is not very graceful. Unfortunately that will be tougher to fix, as will the dash.

Didn't GM hire Renault's designer (Anne Ascencio) a couple of years ago? Is she responsible for the Renaults that are not selling? Did she do the Ion as well?

afk_x

This is an interesting comparison because these vehicles aren't very simlar.

Protege advantages - standard interior is nicer, supportive seats (unless you have a big bottom then you wont fit) handles extremely well, hatchback allows more room.

Ion advantages - saturn service, MUCH quieter at 70 mph, better midrange power, lower insurance costs, lower maintinence costs, safer (assumption full test results not in yet).

My suggestion would be to make sure you drive the Protege5 on the freeway and see if you can live with the noise levels. I have sold several and I was cringing in the backseat because of how loud it was but both customers loved the handling and purchased. Bear in mind that the noise in the Protege5 will only get worse over time as the tires wear. Because it handles so well you'll most likely take corners faster and the tires probably won't wear evenly which will make more noise.

As Reg said, get what you like. If you have it down to these two and are having trouble deciding, I would suggest taking both overnight for an extended test drive.

rchall

Just a little info concerning my dilemma between ION and PR5. AFter much debate, I've decided to change directions and look at the VUE. I'm getting down payment assistance $ and finance incentive so it makes sense to do something before the Maxima blows up. I think I would prefer to wait a year or 2 on ION--I'll drive VUE until then and use it to replace wife's van. Decision now is to either go FWD 6 loaded or cut back to FWD 4 MT with cloth and power pkg/sunroof. Probably need to go AT 6 since will probably give to wife but she does drive a stick well and said I could get it. Any suggestions, input concerning engines, transmissions, gas mileage, etc.

thanks,

RCHALL

uga91

Keep in mind that Ion offers 0% APR and $1000 down payment assistance as well. Saturn will begin making 2004 models in August.

aveman

I was curious to find out who makes the Ion 5 speed auto trans. It seems to come from a japanese supplier, AW the short name.here is a link that gives some info.

 http://www.aisin-aw.co.jp/eng/n/n4.html

aveman

This older review of Ion didn't praise any stand out qualites, but overall the reviewer thought that his daughter will like the Ion. That someone who drives and reviews all kind of cars thinks the Ion would be a good match for a their child sends a message.While not a hot segment leader , it seemed to him to be a safe, competant car.

 http://www.washingtonpost.com/ac2/wp-dyn?pagename=article&nod- e=&contentId=A15703-2002Oct12&notFound=true

dindak

Go for the FWD 6. Nice power and well priced. Most people don't need the AWD. I've tested a 4 but only in 5-speed form.

dindak

http://www.thestar.com/NASApp/cs/ContentServer?pagename=thestar/L- ayout/Article_Type1&call_pageid=971358637177&c=Article&am- p;cid=1056060626825

ab348

Well, she didn't like the rear seating, the visibility, the dash, the transmission, the fuel economy or the wheels. Yep, a great review. ;-)

Yesterday on PBS Detroit they ran "Autoline Detroit" with Saturn's VP of Sales and Marketing. It was taped sometime within the last month or so because they were talking about May sales but must have been before the plant closures because there was no mention of that. According to her everything was all sweetness and light. She didn't give me a whole lot of confidence that she knew what Saturn even was - sounded like she could have just as easily been selling soap or dog food. Maybe one of these days GM will learn they need to have people who understand cars running their business.

uga91

The review done by the Atlanta Journal-Constitution on Friday the 20th has shown up on their web site.

http://www.ajccars.com/content/testdrive/2003/testdrivesaturn_ion- .html

You may have to cut and paste it because it is so long. Not a glowing review, but not a bad one, either.

uga91

It looks like it worked after all. Yes, I did notice that they published a picture of an Ion 3 sedan when the review was of an Ion 2 Quad Coupe. Like I said before, they don't do the most research on their auto reviews.

dunworth

Are there two different greens for the Ion? I remember seeing a gorgeous jade coloured one at the local. This past week while on the road I saw a darker green one which definitely did not flatter the car. It had silver roof rails.

dunworth

Has anyone had these probelsm with their L series (or Ions) yet? How about Aleros or Grand Ams?

uga91

There is only 1 green--medium green. The other colors offered are: silver, black, silver blue, gold, cranberry, white and bright blue. I don't know what the lighter color you saw was. Maybe it was a silver blue that in some wierd lighting had a light green hue to it? I don't know, but there is just one green.

dunworth

I think you are right. The one I saw on the road may have some had reflection that gave it an odd hue.

I saw the green one at the dealer and it looked really nice and was similar to the colour of my Civic. Of course maybe it was an L series I saw with the lighter green colour. I will pay more attention next time.

Saturns generally have excellent paint and very flattering colours.

uga91

The Atlanta Journal-Constitution posted this story on their website (www.ajc.com) about the Saturn recall. It's from the Associated Press.

http://www.ajc.com/business/content/business/0603/24saturnrecall.- html

uga91

I wonder why the Ion is not included if the recall is for the Ecotec?

dunworth

The recall does not include other Ecotec powered cars by Chevy, Pontiac,Oldsmobile either. The components they are replacing may be unique to the L series.

uga91

You have a point there. I guess that is good news for me.

dindak

I think it has to do with the exhaust.

dindak

http://www.autonet.ca/AutonetStories/Stories.cfm?StoryID=8752

dunworth

Yes thanks, I saw some of these and some other pictures previously and they are not visually Ion twins. They are very good looking. I must admit though that prior to the '03 refresh, the Cav was one of GMs best looking cars and was one of the crispest design in its category despite being nearly a decade old.

vuefor2

Dunworth :: If the Cobalt is put together like the Ion, Chevy might have a decent car there. A more up scale interior might be a good call also as our Ion is not the best, though still fine.

Uuga91 ::: I have only seen one green color so far, I should check the brochure to see what was available.

dunworth

I agree with you. The Cobalt could be a real winner with Saturn built quality.

Plus GM is really improving its interiors like in the new Malibu,CTS Grand Prix etc. I am sure a mainstream car like the Cobalt will have a decent looking interior. Actually I like the basic design of the current Cav's interior, its just the quality of the materials I dislike. I really liked the interior of my two old Saturn SLs. They were not of Civic/Corolla quality but still nice.

Actually my 1992 Saturn had a nicer looking interior than that year's Corolla. IMHO only the Civic of that year was better - definitely a benchmark (I could not afford it). Mazda and Nissans were noticeably blander looking although of decent quality.

ab348

Actually the Saturn VP-Marketing I mentioned that I saw on TV last weekend talked about how the '04 Ion's interior issues were being addressed in response to poor JD Power polling results. I must disagree about the quality of GM interiors, even in their new intros. The GP interior is regarded as a near-disaster by some including myself thanks to ugly fabrics and hard shiny plastic. The CTS has an interior that many feel is not worthy of a car in its price range. One can only imagine what corners will be cut by the GM bean counters in the Cobalt.

dunworth

Yes I agree, IMHO even the new GM interiors are still the worst in the industry but they are much much better than the previous cars. The '03 Grand Prix, '03 Malibu and any older Cadi had terrible interiors. I prefer the interior of my two cheapo Japanese cars against any Big 3 product regardless of price. That said, at least Ford and Chrysler are trying, with the former having some genuinely nice looking stuff on their trucks.

GMs new vehicles from Korea have better looking interiors than the US built stuff they will compete with. In Canada we will get the entire 3-car Daewoo line-up. The two larger models will compete directly with the Cav/Cobalt and Malibu.

Mind you the GM NA stuff are still likely to be better cars overall in terms of engines etc.

dindak

I'm not a huge fan of the ION interior but the GP is nice aside from the seats. Most of the reviews I see commend GM for putting a good interior on this car. And the CTS best of all as it should be. It even won an award for luxury interiors, so your GP/CTS views are not shared by the press.

I agree with you on the ION, a new wheel and some upgraded plastics would do a lot.

lngtonge18

Look at the Mitsu Galant forum for the answer to your question. Thought I would catch you here since you come here daily.

regfootball

since the Ion sales have done a nosedive compared to the S-series, I wonder if they will take a hint and QUICKLY reskin the exterior and overhaul the interior completely (along with proper gauges and location).