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Saturn ION

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Comments

  • uga91uga91 Member Posts: 1,065
    I would find it hard to believe they would do much--if anything--to the exterior of the car. Most new cars (IMO) take a little time to get used to when they are a dramatic shift what what we were accustomed to. I still hear about how ugly the Accord is; but, I know in a couple of years, no one will think it's ugly. I would expect changes in the interior. The interior seems to be where the Ion catches the most heat for.
  • dindakdindak Member Posts: 6,632
    I like the exterior of the ION, it's the interior that needs some changes. The center IP is fine, just upgrade some plastics and change the wheel.
  • ab348ab348 Member Posts: 20,270
    Actually, the center IP is not fine. I doubt anyone would choose to buy an Ion *because* of the center IP, but I know that many would choose *not* to buy an Ion because of the center IP - myself included.

    2017 Cadillac ATS Performance Premium 3.6

  • debdoozydebdoozy Member Posts: 21
    I think the center IP is just fine the way it is. That was one of the "eye catchers" to me when I bought my Ion. I also don't see what the problem is with the steering wheel. I think it is very fitting with the car. The only thing I sould ask to have done differently is the center arm rest. Yes the top part slides out for your to rest your arm on, but I wish it was just a little larger and had more storage room in the compartment.
  • dunworthdunworth Member Posts: 338
    There are now several cars with this controversial feature like the Mini, the Echo, and the new Nissan Quest van. I like all of these.

    Many smaller cars in the 1960s and before had centre gauges, especially British and French ones. Those interiors were generally quite nice looking for the time.

    I don't love centre IPs but could live with them in a high quality interior like the Mini or the even the Echo. The Ion's interior is just a little busy for my taste and the quality of some of the plastics is not as good as the old S series.

    In the short term though I can not see GM doing anything major to the inside or the outside of the car to make a major difference. Many just the softening of some lines. Whether that is enough to goose sales volumes is anyone's guess.
  • uga91uga91 Member Posts: 1,065
    I also have no problem with either. I believe the Panoz Esperante is another car that uses a center IP as well as those mentioned above. As far as the steering wheel--like debdoozy, I see no problem with it either. I find entering and leaving the car to be quite easy as I'm not moving around the wheel.
  • himilerhimiler Member Posts: 1,209
    I'll be a fan of center-mount IPs when the steering wheel is similarly postioned. Until then, they'll be different just for the sake of being different.
  • uga91uga91 Member Posts: 1,065
    As it has just been pointed out, there are other cars with a center IP--Ion is not alone here.
  • himilerhimiler Member Posts: 1,209
    I think that it's fair to say that center IP-equipped cars are in the *ahem* minority.
  • uga91uga91 Member Posts: 1,065
    Of course. For the sake of being different--that's a different thing all together.
  • vcjumpervcjumper Member Posts: 1,110
    Saturn has to be different if Chevy will be building more conventional cars. It makes little sense to keep them around otherwise. They key is to be different in a way that appeals to a good size niche of people.

    If Saturn has done their job right, in 05 there should be people saying "I prefer the Saturn to the cobalt because of the Center IP, daring styling, polymer panels etc.."
  • ab348ab348 Member Posts: 20,270
    The will always be a fringe element who prefer cars with oddball design features... these are the folks who buy Azteks, Echos, and (perhaps) Ions. Their predecessors probably bought Datsun F-10s. But if you are seeking to make money and be a commercial success that probably won't sustain you. Saturn needs to decide whether they are satisfied being a fringe player or want to be competitive.

    2017 Cadillac ATS Performance Premium 3.6

  • avemanaveman Member Posts: 122
    Looks that please everyone is nowhere. Take the Cadilac CTS, some people can't stand the looks. I think it looks cool. It is doing well. It is not for everyone. Some folks don't like the Ion's looks. I think it looks cool. People who like the styling who also want what it offers will buy.
  • regfootballregfootball Member Posts: 2,166
    ok, let's review. The Ion sales are down from the older car, the s-series.

    translation-"different just for the sake of being different", or merely outright freaking wierd appears to be REDUCING sales.

    The Ion was not meant to be a niche car, but a volume seller. Its freakazoid design features is turning away mainstream customers the cars needs to meet volume sales goals. Even if the car chassis is all new and much improved.

    "They key is to be different in a way that appeals to a good size niche of people."

    Well, they seem to actually be driving customers away the Aztekway. Maybe this is how Saturn ought to try to be different

    -better looking cars (not freaky looking)
    -better interior plastics, design, assembly, fabrics
    -comfortable seats
    -fluid and quality feeling human interfaces
    -better handling
    -better MSRP
    -technology
    -top notch mechanicals

    instead of

    -freak style
    -cheap plastics
    -bad seats
    -incentives just to push the car
    -mid to low pack mechanicals

    The CTS can afford to have niche looks, its not a volume seller. The ion is supposed to be. It has to please more people.
  • dindakdindak Member Posts: 6,632
    "incentives just to push the car"

    Ya, that wouldn't have anything to do with the fact that every other car has big incentives also would it?

    It's funny how one day you are thinking about getting an ION and the next you lambaste it.
  • alpha01alpha01 Member Posts: 4,747
    and several top sellers that offer $1000 or less cash back OR special (but not 0%) financing.

    ~alpha
  • regfootballregfootball Member Posts: 2,166
    yes, vocus, that is what i am saying....

    i.e. they should have done a better job of replacing a ten year old car.

    its not like the car is a POS but they just screwed up so much that the sales are going down instead of up, for a NEW model. That's just odd.
  • dunworthdunworth Member Posts: 338
    The thing about GM and other Big 3 products is that they do not have to be great to sell huge volumes, just decent value for money, which generally they are.

    The old S series was universally panned by critics but still managed to sell 300 K units in its best years. The Cavalier/Sunfire routinely sold over 400K.

    While Honda and Toyota have been selling industry-leading, top quality stuff for twenty years (earlier stuff were not as good) neither is selling as many vehicles as Chrysler let alone Ford or GM. However up here in Canada both of those Japanese makers outsell Ford and Chrysler on the car side because we buy fewer trucks than our US neighbours.

    The point is, the ION could sell tons more vehicles with some subtle exterior tweaks and a new interior (the Vue has a nice looking interior - just scale it down). Can GM pull it off - I doubt it. They are not all about quick changes and I think the ION launch was botched as badly as the L series.

    Does anyone remember the S series launch - now that is how it should have been done.
  • alpha01alpha01 Member Posts: 4,747
    "The thing about GM and other Big 3 products is that they do not have to be great to sell huge volumes, just decent value for money, which generally they are."

    I completely agree with this statement, you said it well, but I think you may have somewhat missed regfootball's/vocus point:

    You yourself say "The point is, the ION could sell tons more vehicles with some subtle exterior tweaks and a new interior (the Vue has a nice looking interior - just scale it down). "
    GM SHOULD HAVE AIMED to design an excellent vehicle from THE START, then they wouldnt even NEED to consider a "quick change" with respect to quality, design, etc. Doesnt GM realize that with a well designed vehicle, they will be able to sell more?

    There are parts of the ION that show what GM can do if it wants to- the solid chassis, the strong-ish engine, and a first in class 5 speed automatic. But the execution of the rest of the car leaves alot to be desired. Overall, it seems like a half-assed effort. Like Car and Driver said, I feel Saturn's loyal customer base and dealership network deserve more. Done right, I feel this could be an amazing division for GM, a real reservoir of import competition. But in 12/13 years, that hasnt happened.

    ~alpha
  • dallassalukidallassaluki Member Posts: 2
    I bought my Saturn ION just last week and I absolutley love the center gauges. At first it was akward, but after about 10 minutes you realize it just makes perfect sense to have the gauges in the center. I can't imagine going back to the old "lift-the-arm-and-stare-through-the-steering-wheel" method. The car is great!
  • dunworthdunworth Member Posts: 338
    Thanks, good post. Actually I did not miss the point that reg/vocus was making, since I largely agree with them.

    There is no excuse in the car business not to come out with your best shot the first time around. A quick look at the execution of the current Elantra should be a rude shock to anyone making compact cars. Excellent fit and finish, nice ride and driving dynamics, pleasant interior (proper rear head rests!) - not class leading but nice. Pretty well all the Japanese stuff is even better.

    No one is more disappointed with the ION than I am, as a loyal GM customer for 20 years. I no longer have one of their cars in my garage or have access to one through my job. Worse yet, after driving my current vehicles, I doubt I can go back to their stuff again. I like the way GM cars drive, ION included, but lack of attention to details and waiting for fixes years down the road is no way to sell cars in 2003.
  • dindakdindak Member Posts: 6,632
    "waiting for fixes"

    I haver not heard of any major issues with the ION?
  • dunworthdunworth Member Posts: 338
    Sorry, by fixes I meant redesigns of certain traits which have not been popular with customers. For the ION, it means subtle exterior tweaks and an upgrade of interior materials and certain design elements.

    The change to body colour cladding on the Aztec and Avalanche have made those controversial designs far better looking. Ditto for the Echo facelift.

    I have not heard of actual problems with the functional aspects of the ION. I would not expect any major problems since the S series was pretty good overall from its inception.
  • vuefor2vuefor2 Member Posts: 490
    Lots of naysayers on this board who don't have an Ion but like to criticize the car. Nice to see some owners come on board. Glad to hear you like your car. As a fellow owner I'll tell you the whole Ion experience we have had has been wonderful. Great sales department, great service department and a reliable set of wheels.

    Do you do a lot of highway driving? That's where the car really excels in my opinion. There is not a better small car for the job. Hey, there are better cars in the world but for the money and 0% financing it's hard to argue with Ion value.
  • dunworthdunworth Member Posts: 338
    Congrats on your new car. I am sure you will enjoy it. I really enjoyed my two previous Saturn S series and was truly spoiled by the excellent service. The cars were always dependable with no major headaches.

    Like vuefor2 said don't get bugged by some of the critisms being laid on this car. For the money it really is hard to beat.

    So what colour/trim level did you get?
  • dallassalukidallassaluki Member Posts: 2
    I purchased the ION-1...it came with the air conditioning, 5-speed auto tranny, cd player, and was still cheaper than an ION-2 with power locks and cruise control...not too bad. It is silver and looks very sharp!

    I read up on all of the expert and consumer reviews (sometimes hard to draw the line between the two), and they all clashed with my own experiences test driving the ION. I drove 3 different models and really dug each one of them.

    I've done a little highway driving and found myself going 75mph in a 55 on accident...the ride is just that smooth. I'll be taking it from Illinois to Dallas, Texas shortly and I'm looking forward to the long drive.

    I definitely cannot argue with the value...I'm fresh out of college (only 2 months now) and have low monthly payments, 0% financing for 60 months, low insurance, and a brand new car! Definitely worth it, and I'm a happy Saturn owner.
  • uga91uga91 Member Posts: 1,065
    Welcome aboard! We've had our silver-blue Ion 2 with auto since March and no issues so far. Tell us how it does on your trip!
  • regfootballregfootball Member Posts: 2,166
    "The thing about GM and other Big 3 products is that they do not have to be great to sell huge volumes"

    what a telling statement right there. Another apology for GM mediocrity. An absolution, actually.

    I think that era of Detroit getting by with half assed efforts because they are 'American' is rapidly coming to a close. People won't tolerate less than good with superior products from so many other makers so readily available.

    The 'exception' people have been making because a product is a 'domestic' make has virtually become irrelevant, and quite honestly should be.

    If Detroit and GM doesn't eliminate that attitude fairly quickly, its over. The others will eat their lunch in 10 years or less. If they assume they can get by with product that's 'good enough' then let's just shut their whole operation down now. We don't need their crap clogging up the market.

    Meanwhile, companies like VW are readying their better than good enough future products. The 2005 Passat which I saw a picture of in a Euro mag looks to be even more captivating and desirable than the current one. People will be gushing over that car. Who will even care about the next Lseries or Regal, etc.
  • alpha01alpha01 Member Posts: 4,747
    Congrats! The silver is quite a dapper color.

    ~alpha
  • dindakdindak Member Posts: 6,632
    VW sales are tumbling fast. They better get some new product out fast.
  • debdoozydebdoozy Member Posts: 21
    Congrats on your new Ion! We've had our Cranberry color Ion 3 since February and love it! We've even been on a long trip in it and had no problems whatsoever. It's been very dependable and for the price, you can't go wrong.
  • bigdaddycoatsbigdaddycoats Member Posts: 1,058
    information is now available at the gm media site.
    It states that there are some interior changes and newly calibrated steering and auto transmissions as well as other enhancements. Go to media.gm.com and click on the 2004 product information.
  • uga91uga91 Member Posts: 1,065
    Wow! They are making changes during the down time in Spring Hill, aren't they? For 2004, Ions will have (hopefully) improved interiors with different "grains and gloss levels", a changed instrument panel, different bezel colors on the radio and shifter and "more refined fabrics" in addition to more insulation to make the interior quieter. They are also changing some colors. Gone will be silver-blue (mine!) and cranberry (like debdoozy's). They are replaced by "storm grey" and "berry red"--whatever those will look like. The roof rails will be body colored--but charcoal grey will be optional. They will have new radios with MP3 players, XM, and improved sound. The electric power steering and automatic transmissions will be recalibrated. I can just see the advice on used Ions about 5 years from now: "Avoid 2003 models as they are not equipped as well as later years." Great.
  • 2ion3s2ion3s Member Posts: 1
    1st ION 3 with less than 600 miles had a cracked cylinder which cause coolant to leak into the engine. At the same time someone's ION with 2500 miles was at the dealership with the same engine problem. Saturn Corp. recalled the car.

    2nd ION 3 has a bad transmission and steering which glitches coming out of turns. 4 times with warranty service and it hasn't been fixed.

    June 23, 2003 GM recalled all L Saturns with 2.2 engines from 2003-2000 because of engine problems and some engine fires. My sales person made a point of telling me the ION engine is the same as the L Saturn engine.
  • uga91uga91 Member Posts: 1,065
    Well the service guy who mentioned the engine recall of the L-Series when talking about your Ion is an idiot. Ions are not affected. I believe the problem is with exhaust. GM uses the same engine in other cars as well--they are not affected either. I don't know what to say about your 2 problems. Your luck is uncanny!
  • regfootballregfootball Member Posts: 2,166
    oh jeez, why can't they just make a bright red sedan like the coupe???????

    'gloss levels' LOL

    DID THEY CHANGE THE STEERING WHEEL? probably not yet. Oh well.
  • uga91uga91 Member Posts: 1,065
    They did not mention the steering wheel, but it sounds as though the car will look and drive much differently next year. Besides, it's not like you're going to buy one anyway. Your tone has become more and more anti-Ion lately. Why don't you concentrate on cars you like?
  • dunworthdunworth Member Posts: 338
    2 ion3s Wow, that sucks, so sorry about your cars. Please keep us informed on how you make out with your vehicle.

    Uga91 is correct that so far no other Ecotec powered car has been affected by the L series recall.

    As I thought, the changes being made to the ION are subtle. Those that currently like it, such as the owners on this board, will like it even more. Meanwhile those who have been critical of it will probably not change their mind based on these small changes. I look forward to seeing the changes up close.

    Reg: It is in deed sad that the Big 3 continue to aim so low on a number of their key products. They can do so because of their excellent distribution/strong dealer body. Big 3 management have known since the 1920s, that no matter what they build, they will be able to sell at least some. People would not (and have not) put up with these similar deficiencies in import brand products. Look at the comparatively paltry volumes sold by Suzuki,Subaru, Mazda, Mitsubishi and until recently Nissan. IMHO these car makers produce better cars than the Big 3, and each produces a better small car than the ION, but that has not translated into sales.
  • uga91uga91 Member Posts: 1,065
    IMO, the changes for 2004 will be big. New interior materials, new fabrics, new radios, new colors, no more deviating color roof rais, new instrumentation and what should be an improvement in both ride and handling through recalibrated steering and transmissions should make many people currently critical of the Ion over small issues very happy.
  • himilerhimiler Member Posts: 1,209
    No more choosing your roof rail colors?

    I seem to recall that this was a much-ballyhooed feature of the Ion upon its introduction. Yet another GM marketing concept that blew up in everyone's faces.

    All that Saturn needs to show their first(!) dollar of profit is to build a couple of cars that people actually want to drive. To that end, eliminating the the optional roof rails and focusing on the ride and controls is a good sign, but it just might be too late.
  • uga91uga91 Member Posts: 1,065
    Actually, you will be able to get gray (or is it silver?) roof rails on your 2004 Ion as an option.
  • dunworthdunworth Member Posts: 338
    You are probably right about the changes being huge. I hope that is enough to help the IONs sales.

    However I find some of GM's choice of upgrades odd for the ION. Changes to steering, tranny are always welcome, but IMHO the car actually drives really well already. Most my real beefs with the car are visual, material quality and the seat comfort.

    Despite the centre IP, the instrumentation is pretty good, as it has been for all Saturns. I don't care for the centre IP but can live with it. Give me an interior as nicely executed as the cheaper Echo and seats that are well made like any of the import competition, rework some of the exterior character lines and Saturn will have its volume leader back.

    As many recent owners have pointed out, the car is something of a bargain in lower trim levels so any tweaks should help. I believe my shopping list of improvements would make this even more of a competitor. Maybe for 2005.....
  • avemanaveman Member Posts: 122
    Just because they are tweaking the steering and trans doesn't mean it was bad. They tweak software based stuff all the time. That was going to happen for sure. That Saturn was so quick to respond and so public shows how important the Ion is. Some of the Ion's sales woes are due to the overall market. The Mazda 6 was very highly rated and won some awards, but is off to a slow sales start. I am guessing that the Ion will do well. I am all for fact based ads. Find your cars strong suit, like ride handling and looks tell the public about it. Also, tell them to come in and see for themselves.If you are an action movie person, would you trust someone who loves weepy art films to pick your movie.
  • dindakdindak Member Posts: 6,632
    You are right about sales. Everyone is quick to point at ION and say this is why it's not selling when car sales in general are kind of flat and lot of other manufacturers are struggling also. I think some tweaks to the ION will help sales and I think as word gets around ION will sell fine. It seemed pretty solid when I tested and it was mostly small details that bothered me about the car.
  • regfootballregfootball Member Posts: 2,166
    since looks and interior are the main reason folks don't buy Ions, they should have addressed them ASAP tostop the bleeding. Mechanical improvements are welcome, but major changes to whole interior and exterior should be in the works.

    After all, one of the supposed benefits of plastic panels is quick and easy reskin operation.

    Speaking of Mazda 6 it had a very good month last month in sales, maybe the word is getting out. The new Mazda 3 is in production now and looks like an even better car. That car could be the one....that or the 6 wagon. If I have no money than its either fix the SLO or buy an Ion and drive the heck out of it.

    Heck the new 2004 Prius has my eye now that they announced the price....19,995.....holy buckets......
  • dunworthdunworth Member Posts: 338
    Your car choices cover quite a range. In Canada, the MSRP of the base Mazda6 is over C$24 K while the ION1 is just over C$14K without rebate. These vehicles are not even in the same class. The Mazda3 base should be around the same mark C$16K of the Civic/Corolla.

    IMHO, I think the 6 is one of the best looking midsize cars on the market. By comparison, both the current Camry and Accord miss the mark in terms of perfect proportions and balanced appearance. I like the exterior of the Galant and the Saturn L Series as well.

    I would think that if money is the deciding factor the choice would be between the Mazda3 and Mazda6 since those two have more in common with each other, than the ION. The current Protege is arguably one of the best small cars on the road and should be available at some serious deals which could rival the two lower trim levels of the ION. That said, while the Pro is more refined and better built, it is smaller and less powerful than the ION.

    Ofcourse the dealer experience is another story and Mazda seems to have fewer good ones than some other makes. Locally, I have not been impressed with Mazda (any experience Dindak?) while Saturn has been pretty well as good as it gets regardless of price.
  • dindakdindak Member Posts: 6,632
    I have heard bad things about Mazda dealers in general, but have no first hand experience.

    Protege has 0% for 48 months with no payments for 90 days right now in Canada.
  • dindakdindak Member Posts: 6,632
    http://www.media.gm.com/

    Click on the 2004 product info guide.
  • dunworthdunworth Member Posts: 338
    Thanks dindak, good link. Nice details on the '04 changes which uga91 and some others have been discussing.

    Under media releases, it showed Saturn ION sales really took off in June - 12,372 units plus a few hundred S series. On a year to date basis it sold just over 56K units for the six month period versus over 70K for the old S series in the same period last year. Mind you last year's number would have included coupe and wagon variants as well.

    The Vue continues to do well as it should (IMHO its one of the best looking cute-utes on the market). The redesigned L series is in the dumper, down 55%. Say Doh Homer! DOH!
  • uga91uga91 Member Posts: 1,065
    12,000+ units would be a BIG improvement.
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