Saturn ION

vuefor2

Glad to see Saturn will keep living. It would be a shame to get rid of a company with such a good reputation for service.

Perhaps they should replace the L-series sooner rather than later. I don't think it is selling well at all.

ab348

I dunno if these will be offered in the USA, but for the 2004 model year Chevy in Canada is offering 3 Daewoo models rebadged as Chevys:

Chevy Epica
Chevy Aveo
Chevy Optra

Hopefully they will be improvements over that infamous Daewoo rebadged as a GM car, the LeMans.

Re. the Cobalt: will they only be offered in blue?

uga91

Only the Aveo (the Lanos replacement right?) will be sold as a Chevy here. The other two will be badged as Suzukis.

uga91

I hope that was not the "kiss of death." You know how when a football team is not doing well and the AD or GM says "We have all the confidence in our coach. After the season we will look at our options." Then, the monday after the last game, the coach gets fired.

dunworth

You may be right. Companies always deny stuff just before they do it.

According to that Business Week article, Saturn could lose a billion this year OUCH!. If sales stay flat from last year (I think around 300K) that is a loss of $3300 per car!.

From a pure financial perspective, I can see intense pressure internally and externally to kill it. Saturn has great good will from customers but that has not translated to profit which has always been GM's main business since the days of Alfred Sloan.

uga91

I think I heard in a TV story a couple of weeks ago that the Saturn Division has never turned a profit! Makes me wonder about the future. I also heard that the VUE will be offered with a Honda V6 next year, and I think for 2005 they will offer a hybrid VUE. I also believe Saturn will unveil a 2005 mini van next year as well. Maybe GM is committed to Saturn after all--we'll see.

vcjumper

Makes sense since they have no expensive vehicles or trucks that tend to have much higher margins. I thought the saying goes that GM makes all their money on trucks. Toyota had a bigger profit than GM, Ford and Chrysler combined last year. That may be a continuing trend if GM keeps the huge incentives on vehicles to slow their market share decline.

vocus

No word yet. Still pending investigation. It should be complete by the end of this week/early next week, according to my investigator.

vocus

My co-worker has a new ION in that bright blue color, which would have been my choice if I actually fit in the car. Anyway, she had one before this and she had to take it back because water leaked inside when it rained. They exchanged it, of course. This one has one of the DRL lights burned out, and she said the AC button doesn't light up when you press it as it should.

regfootball

yes, Astra would be fine. Then I could buy an Astra and drive around and listen to one of my favorite groups, Asia, and their album 'Astra' in my Chevy Astra.

I notice Lutz said they need to take a Japanese approach to selling vehicles.....good idea....how about then making a 'Japanese' car to with it.....not a Detroit flavored car.....

dindak

If the hybrid VUE is reasonably priced, I may be interested assuming power is still decent. 40 MPG in an SUV, what a great concept.

dunworth

I have vinyl copies of first two Asia albums....

regfootball

try the post Wetton era Asia....very different, but still decent and good to listen to.

dunworth

Thanks Reg, I will look for them at my local record shops.

I just saw somewhere that Ion sales for May in the US were up over April but still not as good as March. Man this car off to a slow start. During its best years the old SL sold 300,000 units (average of 25,000 per month). I think March was over 14,000 in the US. Anyone know for sure?

Any new owners out there?

How about vocus?reg? I think both of you are in the market for a new small car. Any closer to a decision.

uga91

I went to autosite.com and checked the most recent sales figure. Looking at the sales for April, 2003 (the most recent they show) all I can say is: Holy (expletive deleted)! Sales were 7825 units! March sales were 13,057 units. dunworth heard May sales were above April--we'll I certainly hope so. However, if it is any consolation, Ion still outsold Sentra, Protege, Lancer and Spectra. I must add, though, that Ion was behind Civic, Focus and Corolla (of course) as well as Elantra, Neon, Cavalier and Jetta.

ab348

I'm in the market for a new car too and even though the Ion is on heavy promotion I can't consider one. The center instrument pod and odd interior being one thing, but the looks don't thrill me either and the reviews have been very shaky.

Having said that, the L-series seems like a screamin' deal right now and I like that car reasonably well.

dunworth

uga: Hey thanks for that website. I have not used that one before.

ab348: I do not worry about reviews. None of my previous cars were the critic's pick, but I liked them and more importantly they were good cars.

I have been seeing more new Toyota Echos lately. The freshening has made that dumpy looking little car quite pleasant IMHO (the Echo is a great little car mind you). The centre gauges are less of an issue to me at that price point, which I think is similar to the Ion1. The Ion is bigger but the Echo is better executed and gets incredible gas mileage - almost as good as my old Saturn SL.

I wish GM still had a high mileage four banger. (My dad's '03 Accord gets the same mileage as the Ion). For me, a small car that does not get great mileage is a big negative. People buy basic small cars for economy of operation. At an Ion 3 pricepoint the power/fuel economy tossup is more liveable, but for me, at the Ion 1/Echo price point I want better fuel econ.

ab348

I think there are two kinds of people in this world: those who think the Toyota Echo is a perfectly acceptable car and don't see any problem with the way it looks; and those who would never consider owning such a beast and wouldn't be caught dead in one despite whatever merits it may have, just because of the way it looks.

I'm in the latter group. The Echo strikes me as a car for people who hate cars.

dindak

The Ecotec is not super fuel efficient though it pumps out good power. The ION is a big small car so combined with the bigger engine the mileage does suffer a bit. I think a 2.0L turbo charged variant is on the way for the Quad coupe so perhaps you will see a normally aspired 2.0L in another car.

dunworth

ab348. If it had to be a Ion or Echo - which would it be? I would choose the Toyota even though I don't feel it looks like what a grown man like me should be driving - it is for younger people.

dindak Yes good point. It will be interesting to see if the buzz created by souped up versions of the Quad coupe can goose Ion sales overall. I sure hope so. I cannot see GM keeping an entire low price division that is outsold by the Cavalier for much longer.

ab348

If forced to choose between only an Echo or an Ion, I would go for the Ion 100 times out of 100. It is a more normal-sized car and at least the proportions are good. I do like the straight-on front and rear views of the Ion too. It's the side view and roof rail/greenhouse design that is the turn-off on the exterior. But that pales for me in comparison to the interior where I think the real problems are.

GM design seems to be generally challenged these days, but especially so when it comes to interiors.

dindak

The Echo looks better than it did, but it's still ugly and way too small. ION in spite of it's weaknesses would easily win in my book. The new Corolla is nice though. I see they are now offering 1.9% on IONs in Canada. The new Daewoo Chevy's will be here in September, it will be interesting to see what they are like also.

vuefor2

Echo is a really ugly car. Looks like someone squished it. How Toyota can make something so nice as the Corolla and something so ugly like the Echo is beyond me.

Ion is not great on gas, but it's good. Like Dindak said, it's a big car. The Ion is as big as many older mid size cars I see on the road.

himiler

Compared to the Echo, the Ion is a slam-dunk.

Much more car for the money.

alpha01

Im not going to exactly disagree with you, but its tough (or perhaps unfair) of you to make a blanket statement without stating what your metrics are. Looks are pretty subjective, for example. That said, Saturn (and GM) didnt need this car to be as good or better than the ECHO. They needed it to be better than the Corolla/Civic/Protege, and it really isnt. Nor does it offer better value than an Elantra. (I'm making these assertions with my own opinion in mind, and that of Car and Driver, Consumer Reports, etc.) Competes favorably with the 20+ year old Cavalier architecture.

~alpha

regfootball

depending on my new home closing and baby in fall i may or may not be in the market to downsize my car. I could dump some money into my Taurus SLO and pay it off and keep it for 4 more years or I could get a new smaller car.

I can be coerced into buying a car that's less than what I want if the price is right. Still, I want what I want.

So if I were shopping come september I would go test drive the Ion again and its fine but its really about 7 or so on my small car list. The ion deal would have to be insanely good for me to live with the freakazoid styling and center pod. If my budget is healthy the Mazda6 wagon or hatch is the leading contender. If I go small my choices before the Ion are

Focus w PZEV engine
Protege (2003 or new 2004)
Lancer
Corolla
Sentra

as well as some of the others.

But, if Saturn let me use all my GM card, had a 3000 dollar rebate and 0% for 60 I could deal with the issues and get an Ion 1. then, off come the wheels and tires and on it are nice new alums. Then the stereo, gearshift knob and maybe even replace the front seats. Good aftermarket leather too. Would love a factory roof but can't get it on the Ion 1. The ion2 and 3 are too pricey.

dindak

For barely a few bucks more you can p/u a base Alero and get a 5 yr power train warranty to boot. Great values and you even get a credit if you go 5 speed.

I'm hoping Saturn will make some adjustments for 2004. New wheel and a few upgrades to the interior would definitely help sales. I am starting to really like the exterior of the IONs though.

dunworth

Here in Canada you can only use $1500 from your GM card on an Ion. I did use $3500 from my last card for my '01 Saturn SL and then they closed the loophole. Can you use $3000 on an Ion 1 where you are? That would be a serious deal.

Although as dindak said, just over C$19 K plus freight and tax for an Alero or L series is also serious value. Especially if you intend to keep it for a while because resale on these thing will be quite low.

Has anyone out there bought that medium green ION. What colour is the interior? In Europe, Nissan has a similar colour with a gorgeous light green/multi-tone interior. I thought this would suit the Ion's modern appearance.

uga91

You don't want one, so don't buy one. First of all, you will not get to use a rebate AND 0% financing (if it is still offered this fall). Second, if you insist that the Ion has "freakazoid styling and center pod" then you will only grow to hate your car and you will sell it before you should. Lastly, you say the Ion 2 and 3 are "too pricey" but you want to add aftermarket leather, a new stereo, alloys, and you wish you could get a sunroof. I'm sure that for that kind of money, you could get all of these things factory done on a 2 or 3.

uga91

The medium green (not available on Ion 1) has a tan interior.

uga91

Another nail in the Saturn coffin for you...I believe you can only use $1000 GM card points on a Saturn. Plus, I looked and an Ion 1 with nothing but air has a MSRP of $12,995 and an Ion 3 with leather, manual, sunroof and advanced audio system is $17,290. Less with no upgrade on the stereo. Of course, this is MSRP, not after rebates/discounts. I guess you could make some upgrades with the approx. $4000 saved, but who wants to put all this stuff into a car with crank windows? Like I said, forget the Ion. You can get a stripped Sentra for under 10 grand then you can add the stuff you want later--and you won't have the "freakazoid...center pod."

vuefor2

Ion is no perfect car, but for the money with discounts offered it's a great value for a car with lots of good features and larger than average size. Quality is good and service is second to almost no one (except Lexus I guess). Quirky, yes a little but so are lots of cars on the road these days. Not everyone wants to drive a boring Civic and not everyone can afford a Mini. Ion offers something a little different and thats a good thing in my view.

regfootball

dindak- although the Alero is a decent car, the styling to me is too reminiscent of the Grand Am and the interior is way too much like my 95 Thunderbird. But like I said, its a good car. I just don't warm up to it much. I've had 3 "aero cars" in a row now and want something a bit edgier looking.

As far as the L, I suppose it may be an option, however back in late 2001 I was a couple days away from buying a new Saturn L and instead got my wife a used Diamante for less money. It wasn't new but had only 10k miles on it. Even with transaction prices on the L better than back then, the Diamantes are selling even cheaper used. I saw a 2002 Diamante listed locally for 14,500, with 12k miles on it. Back in December I traded the wife's 2001 Diamante for a 2002 with 12k miles. In 2001 I paid 15,900. In 2002 I paid 15,400. And now its below 15 grand. So comparing that to the L, I think I would lean to getting another Diamante. Although, a new L with 5 speed and leather and roof can be had below 18 grand. (Used D's with leather roof and memory seats, Lexus gauges, etc can be had for under 17 grand with about 10,000 miles on them).

Then it comes down to the Focus PZEV having a nice new 2.3l motor that's been getting raves...the Focus is the best looking and best nhandling compact. The new engine is a hit and 150hp. The Focus is decently priced. Now its 2004 and all the early recall issues have been taken care of. Plus, the Focus is roomy and has a nice stretched out seating position and interior door and dash plastics are attractive. Its even a got nice looking shifter. Its available in 5 door hatch and wagon as well. The SVT Focus with European appearnace package has new specially bolstered seats and more GFX, its hot looking with the new wheels.

I like the 2003 Protege in many ways and right now its way cheap. The motor is the weak spot....buzzy, coarse, needs more power.

The 2004 Protege has mucho promise. The interior is truly stunning (nicer than any Buick, Pontiac or Chevy). It will have the same PZEV motor the Focus has. But initially it may cost too much.

The Corolla has a nice interior and it being a Toyota suggests its solidly built. My 1999 Chevy Prizm (Corolla) was flawless and felt like it was so well made.....lots of precision.

The Sentra has a comfortable interior and looks well made. I maybe would lean towards a specV.

The Lancer is my sleeper. My nephew just got a new one and I was checking it out. It looks nice, is roomy, nice and simple, space efficient, well made. The new 162hp motor in the Ralliart will address the hp issue. The new Lancer wagon looks hot but may not come with 5 speed. And Lancers are cheap to buy also. Solid little car.

If someone gave me a Neon SRT I would bite also. I love horsepower.

A mazda 6 if I can swing it. If the man upstairs listens, maybe he can sweeten the lease deal on the Saab 9-3 Linear........something like 239 a month with 1500 down and able to use GM card money for the downpayment. And free scheduled maintainance. WOW. Anyone wanna buy my SLO?

I can't say I dislike Ion anymore, but the deal would need to be this....

base Ion1 with ABS and side airbags and maybe stereo

13355
-2000 rebate
-1000 GM card

10355

aftermarket leather = 1000 (can get it as cheap as 700)

11355

4 17" or 18" wheels and tires = 1200

12555

shifter knob = 100

12655

stereo = 600

13255

aftermarket sunroof = 750?

14 grand. Sweet. Maybe would add a spoiler.

I could substitute the leather seats and just get 2 tuner racing seats with leather already. 2 cloth seats I've een as low as 5 or 600 bucks....2 seats with leather would be about 1000-1500 and would replace putting leather on all front and back seats.

dindak

Looks like the GA in general shape only. It's not real edgy though, but for the money and Alero is hard to beat. Protege is my favorite small car right now in spite of my reservations about Mazda product. I like the ION also but it would have to be a near base model as I think they get too expensive when optioned up a bit.

jlaszlo

Might purchase an Ion 3 quad coupe with CVT auto. Any opinions from current owners with same car and transmission?

Between the supplier price, rebates/0% and GM card, it's hard to beat. The competition is an '01 Saab 9-3 5 speed coupe. Much cheaper car but I've had one before so no personal "wow" factor.

regfootball

just priced a Protege ES loaded w/ moonroof and everything for 14800....what a deal....still the MAzda motor is not as smooth or powerful as I like it.

The 2004 Protege should fix that. Smokin premium interior, 2.3 litre 150hp motor. Shape in some aspects is mildly remisniscent of the BMW Z3.

Might have to consider the Malibu Maxx too, but that may be too spendy.

The Quad coupe shape is much nicer than the sedan, but does not come in level 1 trim, WHY NOT GM?

vcjumper

Drove a friend's Protege ES last night, that is a solid car, lots of fun. Could use an extra 10+hp.

vocus

Agree about the Protege. I used to have one, and the only problem I really had with it is that it was underpowered. I hear even the new MazdaSpeed Protege doesn't have as much steam as it should. I guess Mazda believes in the philosophy that a good handling car with not alot of power is more fun to drive than an ok handling car with alot of power.

aveman

All you Ion owners out there, anyone have any complaints about your Ion not being cool or eciting enough. Do the cheap feel and look of the vast expanses of cheap plastic depress you or shame your children. Or, are you glad that you bought a cool car with one of the best chassis and best rides in it's class. Is the joke really on the fickle self important media. I suggest someone shopping Ion to do a google search ( Saturn "Ion" ). To me the Ion does the most important things a car needs to do well. Also, in regards to plastic give me quality cheap looking stuff. The rich looking nice feeling stuff is probably a more complex chemical soup that may give off more gases and change more overtime. A nice highway ride is the thing.

rabbit2003

I just got a ion2 w/ auto trans last week, today I took a drive and when I parked the car, the key got stuck at ACC position, and had to follow the manual to use the electronic park lock actuator. Does anyone here have the same experience?

regfootball

local saturn dealers advertising market adjustment of 500 dollars and conquest bonus of 500 in addition to 200 dollar reabte, in addition, Oldsmobile loyalty applies to Saturn also. I think there was even one more rebate available.

What that would mean to me is I could get 4000 dollars total off an Ion including my GM card. WOW. Now, y'all know I am lukewarm towards the car....but I certainly think there is some appeal to a new Ion with air and ABS for $9355. Why Kia and Hyundai exist with that pricing is beyond me.

Hell, maybe they'd give me the Olds loyalty discount too because my father in law has one. Then it'd be 8355.

You know though, one olds dealer had NEW aleros for 9999 advertised after all possible discounts (some of which I could not use). Dindak, that curvy styling does seem to get a bit edgier when that sell price goes from 5 digits to 4.

I also think Cavaliers were going dirt cheap too. Of course so are Proteges right now.

vocus

Everything is going dirt cheap right now. I was going to get a used car because I don't want a high carnote, but I can get a brand new car, in many cases, for the same or less than a one year old used one. Financing is also better on the new car, so why not?

uga91

By the time you're done, you'll have 14 grand in your Ion 1? Even when paid off, you'll be upside down. $14,000 for a car with crank windows is not a good idea, IMO.

Also, you ask why no Ion 1 Quad Coupe. There has never been a base coupe. Sedans used to be SL, SL1 and SL2. Coupes were SC1 and SC2. Never a SC. No Ion 1 Quad Coupe just follows their pattern.

uga91

I don't have a coupe or the CVT, but it certainly looks nice. Had the coupe been available when we bought our sedan, my wife would have wanted to check it out instead, I'm sure. Drive it and buy it if you like it. Great deals right now.

dindak

Watch the fine print on those prices though, it's nearly impossible that u would qualify for all the discounts. You can get an Alero up here for U$13500 cash. If you had an Olds credit and a grad credit it would be around $10,000 also, but what are the odds you would be graduating and had a late model Oldsmobile before. I despise dealers that advertise like that.

uga91

Uncool? I have never had anyone tell me my Ion was uncool. Nor would I give a rat's behind what that person thinks. Why would you care what strangers think about your car? Unless someone else wants to make your payments for you, they have nothing to say about what you drive. If you like the car, buy it. If not, don't buy it. No big whoop.

uga91

Sorry to hear about your stuck key. Now that you know what happened, has this happened again? I have never had this happen to me in my Ion 2 sedan with automatic.

uga91

Are way out of control now. Have you seen that GM has now raised them on certain cars to $4000? What will that do to resale? Cavalier now has $4000 cash back. A Cavalier LS with automatic that comes standard with ABS, power windows/locks/mirros, keyless, cruise and CD stickers for about $17,200. Cash back makes $13,200 and you know there is a dealer discount from there. That is cheap!

vuefor2

We think our Ion is pretty cool, nothing else. The center pod, customizable interior, peppy 140 hp motor and funky exterior all add up to a pretty nice car I think. The Quad coupe is very nice, that's the choice car if you don't need a sedan.

vocus

I see Cavaliers here in MD going for $8-10,000 all day long. I also saw a used 01 with 40K online last night (while searching for a replacement car) for $5988 loaded.