Saturn ION

regfootball · May 2003

vc-
barstool....LOL

dindak · May 2003

Oy!

dunworth · May 2003

OK let's be honest even those of us that are huge GM fans admit that for years GM has had the worst fit and finish in the industry and generally the worst looking interiors, including steering wheels reg

No Saturn has a great interior. The Vue and L series are pleasant while the Ion's is controversial. The old S series interior was decent for its time, but subsequent redesigns were not inspiring.

IMHO the only GM cars with good looking interiors are Oldsmobiles. Even Cadillacs do not have interiors befitting cars in their price range.

Fortunately GM is addressing this issue. The quality of leather on the premium cars has really improved and the newest Cadis (CTS/XLR) etc have much better looking interiors. The new Grand Prix and Malibu are also much better.

I actually like the interior colours in the Ion better than my old SL.

vuefor2 · May 2003

I can see where some may not like the Ion wheel, but there is nothing wrong with the Vue wheel. It's a perfectly normal wheel.

As for the interior of our Saturns, I like the Vue better in general, just a few pieces of cheap plastic, not bad. The 2004 Vue is getting an upgrade from what I see at Saturnfans.com. Ion's interior is fine for a small car, I would put it mid pack. Corolla has a nice interior but we were willing to give it up for 0% over 60 months. It wasn't thousands of dollars better.

crashman67 · May 2003

I've been sitting back and observing my steering noise for the past few days. It is present in the morning but disappears after my initial drive to work in the morning. As for the "swishing" noise from the steering wheel, that doesn't concern me as much as noises from the suspension, although it is present. The air fan is somewhat noisy also but doesn't bother me that much either.
As for the A/C coolness, I've only turned it on once or twice since I got the car due to the fact that we have had below average temperatures all spring so far. I like 445 A/C better anyway (4 windows down, 45 mph).
As for the steering wheel, it "looks" fine to me, my only complaint is that it's small size sometimes make it uncomfortable to turn with one hand. Left hand on the wheel, right hand ready to shift for those fast, tight corners. Excellent handling in my opinion. Although, the finger I broke when I totaled my SL2 still bothers me a bit. Once it fully heals maybe the steering won't bother me as much.

dindak · May 2003

Fit and finish on newer GM models ranges from fair to excellent (like the CTS). Some older models like the Cavalier are bad though. Interiors on many GM cars is bad. Our Alero and Intrigue have decent ones, but the Impala, Cavalier and a few others are sub-par. I think the new GP and Malibu look good and the Envoy, CTS and a few other current models are fine. I think Lutz is moving in the right direction. I wish he could move the interior upgrades up a little sooner though.

vcjumper · May 2003

I like the intrigue/alero/aurora steering wheels. I never like Chevy ones for some reason. 04 Bu interior is a bit of a departure for chevy from what I can see.

My boss's avalanche has stereo/hvac controls that look like they could be from a cavalier. Thats one of my beefs with GM. At that pricepoint the stuff should look like a Yamaha or Harman Kardon receiver.

regfootball · May 2003

Sentra, Focus, Protege....all cars right now with way superior interiors and can be had as cheap or cheaper than Ion depending on config. Also notice how these cars were designed a few years ago. Ion has had plenty of time to leapfrog those cars and flat out hasn't risen to the challenge.

dindak · May 2003

I was in a co-workers Protege yesterday. LOTS of hard plastics all over the dash and on the passenger side. Cheapish a/c dials also. Focus has an odd shape to it's dash, no better than ION. Sentra is not bad not much better. Corolla is nice, but you pay $$ for it.

regfootball · May 2003

The Protege and Focus are a definite step above in the interiors dept. and most non 'gm only, til I die' customers would agree.

Starting with the steering wheels being three steps above and gauges in the proper spot.

If you think that was hard plastic, rap on the natty dash panel on an Ion......sounds and feels as cheap as rapping on a hollow core door or the side of a metal uninsulated garage door. The plastic on the exterior of the doors is softer......

ab348 · May 2003

Probably old news but I caught the Car & Driver TV show yesterday where they tested the Ion. Wow, they really slammed it. Their verdict: "We waited 7 years for THIS?". They thought the chassis was fine and they liked the stereo. Aside from that, they panned the styling, the interior, the dash, the steering, pretty much everything. Speaking of bar stools, that's how they described the front seats. Too bad; another stumble for GM.

vuefor2 · May 2003

Car and Driver has hated the Ion from day 1. That quote has come up probably 10 times since I've been on the board. It's one opinion and not the holly grail, we are very happy with the Ion. Have you even driven one?

vuefor2 · May 2003

The Focus is nice from the outside, but the dash is no less odd than the Ion and the 10-15 recalls make it a scary buy. Protege and Sentra both have hard plastic in the dash also but of course Saturn gets panned for it.

The Corolla and Civic have among the better interiors but they are the two most expensive and they have other issues. One of the big issued with the Corolla was the rotten egg smell in the a/c when we tested. I hear it's not going away for many and Toyota won't admit there is a problem.

No perfect cars out there, ups and down to everything. At least with the Ion we have a reliable car we like and a dealer who takes good car of us on a consistent basis.

aveman · May 2003

Car& Driver lost credibility with me, when it did a comparison of small cars and put the Suzuki Arieo in about last place because of it's looks.When you look at the way cars actualy perform,the way they rate cars is strange.

regfootball · May 2003

people ought to give it up with the Focus recalls bit. Go ahead and count how many recalls the 2002 and 2003 Focus have had.

Like I said before, the Ion is decent enough, but Car and Driver is truly within its right to expect something quite a bit better from the world's largest maker GM, especially since the Cavalier and SL had gone undone for so long.

"At least with the Ion we have a reliable car we like and a dealer who takes good car of us on a consistent basis."

That's good criteria for being happy and its a good thing the Ion meets that. The fact that its deficient to some other cars in some things doesn't mean its a bad car or that you shouldn't be happy with it or have to defend your purchase.

The flip side of that is that there was a bunch of stuff that flat out got missed and the point there is GM can and should do a whole lot better.

alpha01 · May 2003

Um what did you read? The econo comparison placed the Aerio near last because of the underwhelming driving experience. And I'm sorry, but it sure doesnt feel like 145 horses are in the corral, at least not when I drove an Aerio awhile back. I wonder if Suzuki is fudging the numbers a bit, like Hyundai and the Miata?

~alpha

dindak · May 2003

Lots of cars have HP claims that seem to be false. I wouldn't be surprised if the Suzuki is one of them.

vuefor2 · May 2003

Like I said, no car is perfect and the Ion is no exception. Lots of room for improvement. That said, we like the car as is or we would not have bought it. For the money it's good value and being treated like a Lexus owner when I go into the dealership for an oil change is a big plus.

dunworth · May 2003

The Suzuki is not bad to drive but if regfootball hates the Ion steering wheel, wait until you try this turkey. It is cheap and thin and the Aerio has a 1980s style digital dash. I would say that the Aerio's interior is worse than a Cavalier/Sunfire.

The Aerio is narrow and tall - great for tall people. I thought it drove well and the engine is quick. Like the Ion though. it only feels marginally quicker than a Civic despite much higher horsepower numbers, at least with a 5 speed.

Like the Ion, the Aerio is significantly less fuel efficient than the car it replaces. The Ion gets 10 mpg (imperial gallon) or 8 mpg in US gallon less than the old SL and the Aerio is about the same versus the Esteem.

I would never buy a small car that gets poor fuel economy. Been there done that - our Elantra was terrible in the city. For me a compact should be capable of around 35 mpg in the city and high forties on the highway (imperial gallon). In US gallon this around 28/39.

regfootball · May 2003

The digital dash on the Aerio is a turnoff but the rest of the car seems likable. Haven't drove one yet though....need another day off

my guess is the Ion powerplant is stronger, gets better mpg, and has a more solid structure. The fact that I am 6'-1" is what I find appealing about the Aerio, lots of comfortable head room and also leg and shoulder room are pretty good in that car as well.

All small cars are crackerboxes anyways.......what would have been a good deal was about a year ago or maybe even less when the G20 Infiniti was coming to the end of its model run you could have leased one for 200 a month with little down for a loaded G20. That car on those terms would have been a good deal, otherwise why did they bother.

Let's just all buy Cavaliers.....3500 is the rebate on those things now....GM should just bite the bullet and have 'half price' sales or buy one get one free on those archaic missiles.

Actually, they should do this.......
Cav base 5 speed
ABS
Air
moonroof
optional supercharger
13.5 grand

then i could make the exception and get one.

regfootball · May 2003

what does everyone think is the best available color for the Ion? Also, is there a color you think they should offer. Also, matching roof rails or contrasting?

dindak · May 2003

They are selling Cavaliers and Sunfires with air/auto up here for $13,998 cash. That's less than U$10K. GM should get a replacement ASAP on those cars though the drive train is solid.

dunworth · May 2003

I must admit, I have always had a soft spot for the Cavalier. Though I have never owned one, I have driven every iteration and always liked it (despite the terrible reputation and generally crude design). But it works and until the 2003 facelift had one of the most crisply style exteriors in this class. OK the fit and finish is awful but I respect the value that the basic car offers. Until the most recent Hyundai Accent, the base Cavalier was my favorite ultra cheap car. More expensive trim levels make the vehicle uncompetitive and I never liked the Pontiac version.

The Ion, like all Saturns, has nice colours and really nice paint.

I love the light metallic blue (it was nice in the old SL as well but suits the Ion better). If I was buying an Ion this is the colour I would choose.

Silver is also nice (my 2001 Saturn was silver).

So far I have seen silver, light blue, black, maroon and white (it may have been silver actually but looked like white from a distance). I liked the maroon the least.

Colour matched rails are definitely the way to go for this car, although the silver rails look OK.

dindak · May 2003

We have had 2 Cavaliers. 91 with a V6 and a 99 that we leased as we needed the cheapest thing out there at the time. Both were good cars though the 99 was a bit unrefined. I would think the 03 would be ok with the Ecotec though the interior is kind of drab, seats are bad and fit and finish is sub par. Great deals though.

lngtonge18 · May 2003

I think the Ion looks best in the silver blue color. It's a very pretty color.

speedingticket · May 2003

love the silver blue...........nice!

About the Cavalier......pay now or later.......its cheap to buy but the difference you will give to your mechanic. Sub-par quality! Anyone remember the Lada????.........nuff said

dindak · May 2003

They just aren't even close to that bad. You have no idea what you are talking about.

regfootball · May 2003

black, white, cranberry, and green are good.

I think Saturn needs to branch out a bit and get some wild colors on the car.

Yellow, there's kid of a flourescent gold that the PT cruiser has that would be kind of neat on the Ion.

millspd · May 2003

on the SC2 is a realy show stopper. I wonder how it would look on the Quad Coupe.

dindak · May 2003

http://www.saturnfans.com/Cars/ION/2003/nhtsacrashtest.shtml

vuefor2 · May 2003

Dindak :: Very good news. Feeling very good about both of our Saturns in terms of safety. Saturn should promote this!

Lngtonge :: We have the Silver Blue. Only reason I don't like it is it seems to be the most popular color and I see most of the Ions on the street in it. Oh well.

uga91 · May 2003

That is great news on the 5-stars!

Our Ion is silver blue. I love it--it was the #1 color choice for us; but, black is a very close second favorite for me. Had I not lived in Georgia, probably would have gotten black. I've had black and dark green cars before, and lighter colors are they way for me now.

dunworth · May 2003

So you do not like the Cavalier. I will admit it is not the most refined car but its cheap to buy, reliable, simple to repair and easy to find parts. I drive them all the time and have never had a problem.

I am driving a 2002 Sunfire GT rental today as someone hit my Honda and it is getting repaired.While the Sunfire is crude, it is lots of fun to drive in GT form (with the quad 4). The Ion is a vastly superior car to this dinosaur.

dindak · May 2003

Must be an old 02 GT as most 02's had the Ecotec.

dunworth · May 2003

You are correct that it must be an earlier 2002 Sunfire GT. I believe they changed mid year. When I got the car, I thought great, I have an Ecotec. But I have driven Ecotecs in Cavs/ Sunfires, Ions and Grand Am/Aleros, I realized this was no Ecotec. That Quad 4 has a nasty growl and uptake is rather jerky. I popped open the hood to see and sure enough the old 2.4 was there.

I remember driving this engine when it first came out in the late 1980s, in a Grand Am I think it was. Good fun but noisy. A blast from the past!

vuefor2 · May 2003

I like the light - medium Saturn green also, but I'm not sure if you can get it on the Ion.

uga91 · May 2003

The only green I have seen is what Saturn calls "medium green" which looks pretty dark to me. In the quad coupe, I like the red a lot.

ab348 · May 2003

Black is probably the best color for the Ion - it'll help to hide the panel gaps and cutlines more than a light color.

speedingticket · May 2003

Since the ION has adopted the ecotec engine....methinks the ION and the Cavalier/Sunfire/Grand Am are pretty much the same car. It remains to be seen what mundane restyling (will GM ever do something a bit daring???) GM will bring out for these cars. Under the skin.....looks like the ION is not all that different. So much for the "different" company......

a_l_hubcaps · May 2003

speedingticket-

No, the Cavalier and Sunfire are based on the J-Body platform which dates from 1982. The Ion is on a new platform (Delta-Body? Someone help me here.) So while they share the engine, they don't share underpinnings.

-Andrew L

alpha01 · May 2003

well said, and thank God they dont!

Also, I dont think the current Cav/Sunfire share architecture with the Grand Am/Alero.

For those GM gurus out there, can you give us a detail of GMs new platforms, and which vehicles use them (ie... Epsilon is used for... Delta is used for... Sigma is used for... )

~alpha

uga91 · May 2003

I'm no GM guru, but I do know the Ion is built on the Delta platform from Europe. The Ion does share the Cavalier's engine (as well as the 4 cyl Vue and L-Series as well), but they are not "pretty much the same car." The platforms are completely different.

vuefor2 · May 2003

AB348 ::: The gaps just aren't that big.

Uga91 ::: I've seen the green on the Vue commercial but never in real life. Not sure if a dark green would look good or not. You are right though, the Ion is not the same car or platform as any of the other GM cars that use the Ecotec.

dunworth · May 2003

The next Cavalier/Sunfire due out next year will be based on the Delta platform like the current Ion. I have seen renderings and it is a stunning car if they build it that way. Unfortunately they may dumb down the styling like they did with the Opel Signum versus the 2004 Malibu (which is on the new Epsilon platform). The former is very nice looking while the latter looks too much like the existing Malibu, although it is a way better car. The Sigma platform is used for the Cadillac CTS.

The existing Cav is on the ancient J platform with origins dating back to the mid 1970s when it was used on the Opel Kadette/Vauxhall Cavalier/Ascona etc. The GrandAm/Alero is on the much newer GMX130 platform while the L Series is on a European Vectra platform. They are all very different cars.

ab348 · May 2003

The gaps on all plastic-bodied Saturns are huge compared to most other cars these days because of the expansion and contraction properties of the material. Not a criticism, just a statement of fact. In the case of the Ion, the gap between the front of the hood and the headlight/grille unit is particularly large but most other gaps are also bigger than is usual these days. Then of course there are the separate roof rails which create another set of lines. Black paint helps hide all of this.

bigdaddycoats · May 2003

Epsilon - 04 Malibu and Malibu Maxx, new Saab 9-3 and I believe next gen 9-5, upcoming Grand Am, Buick will get a version as well, Opel and Vauxhall also use this platform.
Sigma - CTS, next STS, SRX and I think that is all. I believe this is a North American platform only with all variants being built at the Lansing Grand River plant.
Delta - ION, next Cav and Sunfire, maybe a modified version for the Solstice if approved. Do not know what it is used for in Europe. Is the next gen Astra due next year on this platform? The GTC concept would make a great Sunfire and possible RSX competitor.

dindak · May 2003

ab348 : Gaps are no big news on Saturns. Like you said, it's a necessary evil to get the dent resistant panels.

dunworth : Where did you see pictures of the new Cavalier? I have seen a paint shop job on the hollywood insider web site, but that's it. Too bad the car isn't coming for another year at least.

dunworth · May 2003

I did not see actual pictures, these were drawings which look similar to what was on the hollywood extra site. I can not seem to remember where I saw them though.

To others on this board, how are Ions selling out there? I still do not see many around here in the Toronto area and I just saw in the paper that they have something like 96 days supply of these things piling up on dealers lots (the desired level is closer to 60 days supply). Maybe they are selling better in certain other parts of the US and Canada. Let us know.

uga91 · May 2003

According to autosite.com, sales figures for the Ion for March, 2003 (the most recent numbers they show) were 13,057 units. That puts it #11 overall and ahead of competitors like Neon, Elantra, Sentra and Protege. Mazda sold only 5803 Proteges, and that includes sales of the P5 wagon as well. If I remember correctly, Saturn sold 11,000 Ions in February and about 7500 in January, so I think sales are going upward. With the current $2000 rebate or 0% APR, the Ion certainly deserves a look to those in the market.

regfootball · May 2003

The Delta platform is not a GM Euro concoction, its a north american platform.

the green isn't too terribly dark

the unfortunate by product of plastic panels is extremely large panel gaps. One only need look at the Vue to see how large and nasty they can be. As a compromise for having dent and rust resistance I could tolerate them, although it just seems rather odd that they need THAT MUCH of a gap. Maybe they need to develop the plastics more so they don't expand and contract quite so much. Part of me thinks its an excuse as much as anything, so they can have more flexibility in bolting on the panels to the car.

Darker colors will blend better into the dark shadows created by the panel gaps.

Saturn ION

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