Saturn ION

dindak

Steering wheel is the one bad thing that really stick out in the ION. A regular wheel would be a good thing.

vocus

Different things are important to different people, I guess...

regfootball

you still are what you drive

driving an elantra is not a bad thing tho. besides, that guy has a bimmer sitting in his garage at home for weekends.

regfootball

http://wardsauto.com/ar/auto_saturn_darts_red/index.htm

"Ion Red Line also receives a steering wheel larger than the much-criticized go-kart sized wheel on the Ion. Doug Parks, Ion chief engineer, says Ion Red Line’s steering wheel eventually will be rolled out across the Ion lineup."

Hopefully rolled out like, in September for the 2004 models. I wouldn't object if they started doing this next week.

The marketing person that approved the steering wheel and the designer who designed it both ought to be sent packing, or to work designing garden tractors.

vcjumper

Other VP has an 03 7-series but the Elantra driver even shares his with the wife (she picks him up/drops him off sometimes). Quite the contrast. I guess one is looking for Freedom 45, the other Freedom 65. I can't say I would drive something worth 5% of my annual gross income. 10% sure.

logic1

Most likely if GM is changing the steering wheel already, whoever chose it is probably already gone.

dindak

People down the street have a Denali and a Sentra. A luxo ride for the the family and a commuter car for one to go to work I guess. It's not that uncommon.

vcjumper

I guess it just comes down to different priorities. My hometheatre is probably worth as much as my vehicle's trade in value, and the elantra driver vacationed in Europe and Australia last year.

dindak

I see people with 2 econo cars sitting outside of a $500K house and I see people with Mercedes and BMWs sitting out side a $150K town house. I like to think we are pretty well balanced in comparison.

regfootball

Smaller 4 cylinder sedans are nice to have because they are lighter and more nimble and feel easy to drive around town.

Was checking out my sister's Focus ZX3 again tonight and just keep thinking, I would love to have a nice 4 cylinder to just get around town in. Something simple, cheap. Beat on it, not worry about it. Etc. My sister loves her Focus and its a cool car.

But a small 4 cylinder as primary trasnportation is very limiting when it comes to trips. Depending on how smooth and comfortable your car is, trips can be exhausting. My Prizm was decent for trips but I needed cruise control. The seats were ok, but stretch out room lacked. The 4 cylinder was smooth for a four, but still buzzy enough to be a bit annoying on a 5 hour trip.

saturnfreak01

One thing to keep in mind is that if you get crushed by one of those distracted cell phone users who is driving a Ford Expedition, and you are driving a Toyota Corolla you probably won't live to talk about it.

   On the other hand, a Lexus ES300 might just save your life. I don't know about you , but my life is worth a bit more $$ for a car, just from a safety stand point.

regfootball

so if that's the case then why look at a saturn if its a small car?

dunworth

A number of us (including many of my friends)have nice mortgage-free homes and drive small vehicles because we prefer them.

Today's small cars are as comfortable as yesterday's small mid size. My '03 Civic is bigger than my dad's previous Accord (a '92) although the '03 Accord is larger. Our '02 Corolla is nearly as big as the original Camry.

A car like the Ion is huge inside and has a pretty decent ride. Unless you do a lot of really long trips you really do not need more car.

If I wanted to spend more on a car I would buy a more expensive small car like a C-Class Benz, BMW 3 series or an Audi A4 rather than a physically larger car.

uga91

I guess that is what happens if enough people complain. I don't have a problem with the size, though.

uga91

It's nice to see this activity on this board. I was in Florida last week and I came back to find 49 new posts here. As a comparison, my other vehicle is a Chrysler Voyager LX and there had been NO new posts since my last post of 4-6-03. Go figure!

vuefor2

We will have to try a long trip in the Ion one day. During the winter we always took our AWD Vue as you never know when you will hit a snow storm.

I suspect it will be ok though.

dindak

I like doing long trips in V6 Sedans. I think small cars are better suited to city driving.

That said, the ION and Corolla are both pretty big cars for compacts.

uga91

Well, we took our new van on this trip, so I don't know how the Ion will do just yet. In a couple of weeks, we'll be taking an overnight trip to my mom's house a couple of hours away. We'll probably take the Ion for its better mileage and I'll report back how it fared afterward.

saturnfreak01

While The L300 may not be the largest car i could have purchased,it is bigger than a Ford Focus for example, and came with head curtain air bags, a steel safety cage, extra reinforcements in the side pillars, door beams, etc... The L300 was also in my price range for I am still in college and cannot afford an ES300 or Saab at this time.

   There are certainly small cars that do very well in crash tests, for safety is becoming more of a priority to the automakers at this time. A big leap from the Pintos and Civics of the 1970's, however considering how many larger SUV's, and trucks are on the road they would have to be safer.

     It is a personal preference as to what size of car to purchase, but it stands to reason that a larger car should protect occupants better in the event of a crash with a large truck/ suv/ or large sedan (lincoln, caddy, etc)

dunworth

It is the truth that larger vehicles generally do better in collisions with smaller vehicles. But if you get hit by an 18 wheeler, even an Excursion is toast. Ofcourse accident avoidance is generally better in a well designed small car with good power to weight ratio (like most of today's small cars including the Ion).

How you get hit (t-bone, full frontal, partial offset) also makes a big difference. I remember a few years ago in the late 1980s when Cadillac had downsized their deVille the car would fold in the middle, usually killing the occupants even in collisions of less than 50 km/30 miles an hour.

vuefor2

Safety is another reason we generally take the Vue on long trips. It's excellent crash test scores make us feel very secure. Has the Ion been tested yet?

vocus

The L Series didn't get good scores for safety though, even with the side curtain airbags. The Taurus is the best, and the Focus was almost as good or better than the L. Am I remembering correctly?

alpha01

Your point brings up my sentiment that curtain airbags are great, but really should be supplemented by a seat mounted, thoracic side impact bag for the driver and front passenger.
In terms of safety, the Taurus definitely isnt best of the domestics, I believe that would be the Impala.

~alpha

dindak

How did the L-series do?

lngtonge18

The Lseries only got 3 stars for the driver in the side impact test, the same as the tiny Kia Rio which lacks a side airbag. The Civic and Elantra both got 5 stars. I guess that kills the notion that bigger cars are always safer....

alpha01

The IIHS will release results from its newest round of dynamic testing- side impacts where the striking barrier is built to replicate a 3500lb SUV, not a 1980s sedan (as is the NHTSA test).

Am I correct in believing that NHTSA doesnt measure head injury (which is stupid, if you as me) for side impacts? They sure dont post an HIC number on their website for side impacts as they do for frontal.

I think this new testing is going to force automakers to develop systems which integrate curtains and side airbags; so far the IIHS tested only compact SUVs, and their first priority is testing base models (which usually dont have side airbags standard). If an automaker wants a vehicle retested with airbags, they have to foot the bill. (Whereas IIHS otherwise buys cars right off dealer lots). So far, the only SUVs that passed were the Hyundai Santa Fe, and the Ford Escape w/SAB. Both of these airbag systems, though not curtains, offer coverage of the head.

 (I will try and find the link to the WSJ article that I read awhile back regarding this issue).

~alpha

saturnfreak01

"The Lseries only got 3 stars for the driver in the side impact test""

You failed to mention that the 2003 L received four out of five stars for the driver front, and the highest rating for the front passenger.

Not to mention the highest rating possible for rear side impact as well as a good roll over resistance rating.

http://www.nhtsa.com/NCAP/Cars/2529.html

lngtonge18

My point was in demonstrating size doesn't always translate to better crash protection. The NHTSA uses the same size and weight vehicle for every side impact. If bigger was always better, than the much larger and heavier Lseries would have done much better than the Rio right? Well, it didn't, even with a side curtain airbag...So, theoretically, you are no safer in the L than in the Rio in that kind of accident. Yes, the Lseries did good otherwise, but it's performance is not stellar and other smaller cars did better, like the Matrix, Corolla, Civic, Elantra, and Jetta. We have come to a point where a stiff well designed structure can make up for the lack of size, within reason at least.

pat

alpha, I don't think you can link to the WSJ site because you have to have a paid membership to read the site?

BTW, thanks for an earlier post in another discussion. I appreciate what you said. :-)

saturnfreak01

""So, theoretically, you are no safer in the L than in the Rio"""

The Kia Rio received just four stars for frontal passenger and was not tested for side impact as of this time.

Also, according to nhtsa, when crash tests are performed it is using vehicles in the same weight class. ""Vehicles are crashed into a fixed barrier at 35 miles per hour (mph), which is equivalent to a head-on collision between two similar vehicles each moving at 35 mph. Since the test reflects a crash between two similar vehicles, make sure you compare vehicles from the same weight class, ± 250 lbs., when looking at frontal crash protection ratings. I would not want to, but I would feel better crashing into a Kia Rio with my L300 than with another RIO

http://www.nhtsa.com/NCAP/Cars/2419.html

dindak

I think I'd rather be in a big car than a small though. I've seen to many torn up civics and cavaliers on the side of the highway in the past.

alpha01

pat, no prob, and you're right it is a pay site. I might still try it though, if its legal as per the edmunds.com rules, when I have more time.

saturnfreak- ingtonge was making the point that L-series, despite its side curtain airbags, only received 3 stars in the NHTSA test. PERIOD. and for this particular test, vehicles CAN be compared across weight classes. so ingtonge seems correct to me- for this test, you might as well be in a Kia Rio. (PS- I'm not bashing the L-series, my Camry, w/o side airbags, also tests at 3 stars driver/ 5 stars rear passenger).

~alpha

lngtonge18

See the ratings for the 02 Rio if you don't believe it got the same 3 stars. 02 and 03 are exactly the same structurally. The tiny Miata also got 3 stars. Again, I'm not bashing your car, just trying to inform you a little better. Size matters in some cases, but it's really weight that matters more and new design structures have been designed to offset the weight advantage some.

vocus

Here's a small car that beat the L series...

http://www.nhtsa.dot.gov/NCAP/Cars/1595.html

uga91

Any Ion owners have any updates? I'm taking mine on its first road trip next week, so I am anxious to see how it feels on the road for an extended period of time.

saturnfreak01

I do see your point, and there are some very safe small cars out there to choose from. There are also very unsafe large cars ... see link below..

http://www.nhtsa.com/NCAP/Cars/1598.html

  I was very shocked to see how poorly this car did, but am glad my L received what it did in terms of safety.

vcjumper

Year after year my car (Intrigue) seems to perform horribly bad in passenger side impact safety results. Not a fluke if it happens year after year. Someone in the Intrigue group had a bad T-bone accident and the cop said they could not recall seeing worse damage on a car. Not feeling good about that at all, and I may get rid of it sooner than I had planned. If I had a kid, I would trade it in Monday.

alpha01

What you heard from that Intrigue group member is anecdotal evidence. Appearance of damage, at least as assessed by non-engineers, means NOTHING when it comes to prediction of injury. Yes, the actual test scores should, and rightly do, concern you. One guy's experience should not- there are countless variables to consider. If I were you, I'd put that out of my mind- or at least focus on the fact that the car you had prior to your Intrigue maybe didnt even meet the side impact standards introduced for 1997.

~alpha

dindak

We had a horrible accident in our Grand Prix and our w-body performed extremely well in spite of the fair crash tests. We have an Intrigue now and a child and I have zero worries about it and have every confidence in out car.

vcjumper

97/98 designed W-bodies seem to do well/decently in tests except for side impact where it gets 1-2 stars every time they test it. Guess I'm getting more concerned with safety as I get older but I'm not going to settle for that in my next vehicle. If something were to happen I'd have only myself to blame.

dindak

We keep our daughter in the middle so she is far away from the doors. I would do this in any car I had regardless of the rating. 2 stars is a fair rating and while there is better, it's not terrible either. Cars are only getting safer and my guess is any new model will have a better rating. Our Intrigue was designed 5-6 years ago.

vocus

Just because the Intrigue came out 5-6 years ago, doesn't make it better to have lower scores. The Passat and Jetta debuted in 1998 and 1999.5, and they still rate in the top of their respective classes for crash safety.

vcjumper

I should have been more specific.. Intrigue got 1 star put of 5 on rear side impact every time it was tested, the worst out of all midsize vehicles tested (no other car tested received less than 2 stars). Front passenger rating on side impact was 2 stars.

Anyways, back to Ion.

dindak

Didn't say it made it any better, just saing newer cars tend to be much better. The Impala on the same frame for example is near the top of the heap in terms of crash tests. Like I said, it's not ideal but it's got a acceptable rating and no poor or marginal scores..

http://www.hwysafety.org/vehicle_ratings/ce/html/96027.htm

vuefor2

Wow, it's been busy here. I was out of town this weekend but we took the Vue so still no long distance Ion travels.

uga91 ::: Nothing much to update. We have had out Ion for 3 months with no issues to report. Trouble free driving and mileage has come up with the warm weather / lack of snow.

Vcjumper ::: Crash tests don't look as bad as you are making them out to be on that car.

vcjumper

I don't see any other midsize vehicles with 1 star for rear side impact on the nhtsa site.. Could it be worst in that area?

vabiker

Anyone take a look at this comparison lately? I owned a Saturn SL for 11 years and sold it to my brother to reduce my car count from 3 to 2. I miss driving a manual transmission car and can't stand the '98 Civic DX I'm driving now for many reasons (poor gas mileage, easy-chip/scratch paint, hunt and peck AT). I bought the Honda new for my wife 5yrs ago. I've been driving it full time since last fall (Nov.). I want to move on.

I've test driven the ION-1, manual w/AC. I liked the car well. I just wish it got better mileage. If it did, I wouldn't be looking at anything else.

I test drove a Ford Focus LX, manual w/AC. Yuck. Rated with decent mileage, but the ride is more harsh than the Civic's and a bunch worse than the ION.

Test drove a Vibe, 6spd manual GT, w/AC, lots of other stuff I wouldn't use. Just wanted to see what the car was like. I liked the ride a lot. Now, I realize that the GT is not indicative of what the 5spd model would be like.

I'm going to test drive a 5spd on Wednesday. I'm pretty much set on trading the Honda in on either the ION, Vibe or Matrix. The Matrix is a little less attractive right now with no rebates, but the base price is lower.

Opinions?...

uga91

You said you liked the Ion 1 with manual and said that if it had better mileage, you would not even look elsewhere. BUT, you say your other choices are the Vibe/Matrix twins. According to edmunds.com, the Ion 1 with manual gets 26 mpg city and 33 mpg highway. The FWD Vibe with manual gets 29 mpg city and 36 mpg highway--same as its twin, the Matirx. I would not let 3 mpg get in the way of getting the car you liked. If you drive 15,000 miles a year, the Ion will burn about 500 gallons of gas. The Vibe/Matrix will only burn about 454 gallons--a savings of $69 a year at $1.50 a gallon (and I filled up today at $1.26, so this dollar difference will be smaller at these prices). Here is the kicker, edmunds.com goes on to say the Ion 1 with manual has a base sticker of $11,510 while the base sticker on the Vibe is $15,659 and the sticker on the Matrix will start at $15,117. Now, not getting into actual selling prices, it should be fair to say the Ion will be cheaper to buy. At a savings of $69 a year at the pump, you will need to drive the Vibe/Matrix for about 58 years to get your $4000 back that you paid extra for the car to begin with. Good luck on your decision!

vuefor2

Vcjumper ::: I don't really follow what you wrote

Vabiker ::: Matrix and Vibe are very different vehicles from the Ion as it's a traditional sedan. Vibe does get better mileage in the city but highway makes little difference. We are getting pretty much the advertised mileage with our Ion and we are happy with our car. I guess your decision really should be based on body style needs as either car will serve well for commuting.

vocus

The Vibe is much more expensive, although it has rebates. However, the ION has rebates now as well. I have seen ION1s as low as $9995 here in MD, being advertised. So the ION is still going to be cheaper. The Vibe might have more equipment though, justifying its higher price.