Saturn ION

dindak

It isn't that my Alero is cheaper, but when you add in incentives it becomes very comparable. Right now (up here anyway) they have $2000 cash or 0% for 48 on an Alero plus an A/C credit. On the ION they have 3.9% for 48 and no cash back offer. The ION is new and the Alero is a 4 year old model so of course I realize that ION will not have the same incentives. In the US I know Saturn is offering 0% for 60, but that's not available up here. Also, when I bought, ABS was standard on Alero, it's not anymore.

Don't question your buy, if you like your car, be happy with it. I really like ours and I never look back with regret.

dunworth

Like Dindak said, right now the Alero with Ecotec is kind of a bargain up here so if someone needs a bigger car it is a good value with the added bonus that fuel economy/operating costs will be similar to the Ion3. However some people do not need or want a bigger car (cars with a smaller footprint are better for city driving)so for people like me the Ion would be the better choice.

The Taurus and Malibu with V6 are similarly bargains but with much worse fuel economy and slightly higher maintenance costs. These latter two will also have fairly poor resale due to their popularity with fleets. My guess is that the Ion will follow in the S series footsteps and have decent resale, as most high quality small cars have.

Actually I park beside a silver Ion2 at the train station where I leave my car to come into the city every day. I miss my old Saturn on the days where it is obvious that some jerk has slammed his car door on my new Civic. Unfortunately the Civic's paint is a bit delicate

vuefor2

Lots to catch up on here.

I'm generally not a big fan of US brands but Saturn does a good job of servicing people and delivers good cars at good prices. There is a lot to be said for the secure feeling of being taken care of at Saturn also. To me, the Ion is a good value because you can have a great car but lousy service and then the over all car experience sucks.

We got 0% for 60 and I think that is a very fair incentive all things considered. Corolla was no where near that though we did like the car. Taurus, Alero and Malibu are all pretty good rides I guess but we don't need a bigger car. The Ion is a pretty big car for a compact so I don't think you gain much space anyway.

uga91

I thought I made it clear that I feel as though the Ion was a good buy even compared to these larger sedans. In the US, Ion is offered with either $2000 cash or 0% APR for 60 months. Also, the Ion uses the same Ecotec engine as the 4 cyl Alero (and the Cavalier, 4 cyl L-Series and Vue as well for that matter), so I feel we can look at reliability figures from the last couple years of this engine's history and applky it to Ion as far as reliability goes. Also, we all know that these compact cars are not so compact anymore. Compared to 1980's Civics, Corollas and the like, current compacts are rather large--much larger than you would think sometimes. Okay, I think I'm really done defending now.

usaf52

Looking at the GM website, it appears that the rebates have been suspended, and just the zero financing is now in effect.
   Ford rebates/financing does continue until May 5, and Dodge has now extended all their rebates and financing until June 2.

dunworth

Uga91 and vuefor2. You both did well on your Ion purchases. That zero percent can make a huge difference in the final purchasing decision.

The friend I went car shopping with two weeks ago is starting to get serious about his purchase. It is down to the Civic DX-G and the Ion2 although the smaller Corolla CE and Sentra GXE have not yet been eliminated. All the cars are similarly equipped (but not exactly the same). Each is a mid range automatic and within a few hundred dollars of each other in MSRP - and all around the $23,000 mark out the door (CDN $) .

However my friend can apply $1500 from his GM Visa card and get 2.9% financing for 60 months (zero % is only offered on shorter terms). The savings on financing versus the Civic is $2500 over the entire term. That is almost $4000 difference in price if you combine the financing and GM card!

If we got zero percent over 60 months (like uga91 and vuefor2) the savings on financing alone would be over $4250 versus the Civic. On a $23 K car that is a HUGE difference. Haggling on the Civic locally might get you $1000 off maximum So right now the Ion2 is the front runner since it is over $3000 cheaper overall. For him right now, none of these cars is $3000 better than the other.

dindak

You are correct. The ION I tested was about the same size as our Alero inside. Back seats were a bit smaller than the Alero though. ION is definitely on the larger side of compact cars.

uga91

You are right about the size issue. The Alero has about 2 more inches of rear hip and leg room over the Ion--but the front dimensions are nearly the same.

vuefor2

uga91 ::: Not too concerned about the back seat, it will only be holding a baby down the road. We never have passengers back there.

dunworth :::: There are some amazing deals but Honda and Toyota are not companies that are offering much. Nissan, Saturn, Mazda and Ford are all offering up much better value IMO.

uga91

I'm not concerned with the backseat in the Ion. It's plenty big enough for us.

sedanman2

i wont say anything bad at all about the ion,but since you are comparing cars... how about a hyundai sonata or kia optima, both cars can be equiped with all the goodies you could want- leather moonroof abs cd alloys side airbags 4 or 6 cyl engines- all for about the same price of the little ion! even a loaded up focus will be much less, focus is cavernous on the inside, peppy as hell, well balanced... on and on, good luck to you all.

dindak

No offence, but it will be a number of years before I would ever trust a Hyundai or especially a Kia. I know they have gotten better but I still have memories of the Pony in my head from University and the Kia Sportage rental that rattles every where. Some of the 5 year old Hyundais driving around here don't appear to be holding together well. Maybe in a few years I'll look, but by then their prices may be higher given the depreciation of the dollar among other things.

benjaminh

I would trust an ION, or for that matter any Saturn vehicle, over a Ford Focus. You've probably heard that the Focus had a little problem with quality--i.e. it didn't have any. Perhaps they are better now, although I'm not so sure. It still is at the bottom of Consumer Reports problems per car list for April 2003. The Korean makes may be loaded, but they also are question marks. For an ION, since GM is making huge numbers of the 2.2 engine for all sorts of vehicles, service should be easy wherever you are in the usa, even if there's no Saturn dealer around. I also think with the 0% financing or rebate the ION is in fact equal in price to those other cars you mentioned. I don't own an ION, but I took a test drive and was impressed. My two cents.

wwhite2

That steering wheel in the saturn fans redline Vue is the same wheel in my CTS less the wood accents

regfootball

time to raid the parts bin!

maybe they will put it in the Ion, too. We can only hope. Time to pop the cover off the current Ion steering wheel and have some popcorn! JIFFY POP! MMMMMMMM...... Or is it an oversized banquet pot pie? Better let Cartman know! MMMMM......Or is it a thanksgiving meal, sweet potatoes with marshiemallows melted on top? MMMMMMMM..... Don't eat the cruise control buttons!

Maybe the GP steering wheel would look good in the Ion.

dunworth

Reg: Mmmmm popcorn..... I still like the "frozen pot pie" description of the Ion steering wheel best.

sedanman2: The Focus has resolved most of the quality issues and if you live in a town with a good Ford dealer you should be fine. Resale will be horrible. I live in a town just outside of Toronto with a huge Ford plant. There are two large Ford dealers who seem to look after their customers fairly well. My friends who have recent examples of the Focus have had no issues with them except poor gas mileage.

The Optima and Sonata are good cars but dealer service may be an issue. They are basically the same car made in the same plant in Korea. Quality is quite good. Again like the Focus, resale will be an issue.

dindak

Do you live in Oakville also?

dunworth

Yes I live in northeast Oakville but I work in the city.

vuefor2

Sedanman : My sister's Hyundia has not been a good car. It's enough reason for me to avoid the cars for a long while.

Reg : While the steering wheel is a little odd, it works well and in the grand scheme of things it's not that important.

dunworth

Lots of steering wheels are odd looking. At least the Ion's goes well with the quirky interior. The Echo's interior is quite similar.

Years ago when Ford first bought Aston Martin and they needed to accommodate airbags in the steering wheels, they were putting in stock Ford steering wheels of the type used in the Taurus and Mustang into the Aston. While it suited the Ford vehicles' modern design it stuck out like a sore thumb in the Aston's otherwise beautiful classic British handcrafted interior. Yuck!

regfootball

"in the grand scheme of things it's not that important."

How low of standards do you have anyways? Yeah it is. It's fricking ugly, and cheap looking and thin so it doesn't feel good to the hand. Every time you touch it or feel it you are reminded of how you got ripped off by paying for a decent steering wheel and getting nothing less than a complete afterthought.

Making a nice steering wheel is not difficult and not expensive. The Mazda Protege and Toyota Corolla have very nice steering wheels. All Hyundais have wheels far superior. A carmaker the size of GM has no excuse to put something that pathetic looking on a high volume model.

Get some standards.

dindak

Take it easy on the guy, not everyone has to agree with you.

debdoozy

Just becuase you don't like the steering wheel doesn't mean that everybody has to agree with you. We all have our own individual tastes and that doesn't mean that we are lowering our standards. I for one don't have a problem with the steering wheel in my Ion. Other people who have been in my car and have driven it don't either. Again, that is only my opinion as you are entitled to yours as well.

dunworth

The steering wheel aside, I thought you were suitably impressed with the value that the Ion1 offers to consider buying one.

Some people like the smaller diameter wheel in the Ion. I like a bigger one, especially like the ones used in older Benzes and Volvos. My Civic has an excellent big steering wheel.

My old Saturns had nice big thick ones as well - very useful since my 1992 SL did not have power steering. The 2001 SL's was not that good looking - I actually like the one in the Ion better. The Ion's appears to be of higher quality as well. I also applaud Saturn for using a proper emblem in the middle of the steering wheel and not just molding it in the plastic like in my SL.

crashman67

I purchased an Ion3 two months ago, (got a great deal with GMCard points and loyalty cash) and had it in the shop for the second time yesterday. The first time in the shop was due to two wheels being badly out of balance from the factory. Yesterday, I had it in for noise in the front end when steering. They replaced the upper strut bearing and told me they had to clean and re-grease the bearing because the noise was still present after replacing the bearing. Well, this morning the noise is back so I'll have to take it back again.
This is my fourth Saturn, had a 1991 SL2 I traded in for a larger vehicle for an expanding family, I presently also have a 2002 Vue, and the Ion replaced my 2001 SL2 that was totaled when someone ran a stop sign ('99 Honda Civic) and I t-boned them doing somewhere around 50mph totaling both cars, (only received a broken finger in the wreck, she didn't get out of her Civic but is OK I hear.)
My point... I had my 2001 SL2 for two years and NEVER had it in the shop for any problems. In two months I've already had the Ion in twice and am looking at a third.
Has anyone else seen any similar possible quality problems?

debdoozy

I've had my Ion3 since February 1 and have not had a single problem with it. I previously had 2 other Saturns (91 Sprots Coupe and 98 SL) and had more problems than I ever want to mention with the 98 SL. I decided to give Saturn one more try with they came out with the Ion because I liked that it was different from any other car that I had seen and plus the perks that came with it (0% interest for 5 years). All in all, for me it has turned out to be a really good car that I have had no problems with. I actually just took it in for it's first oil change and they checked everything out while I was there and said it all looked good (then again, what else are they going to tell you). I hope they can fix your problems real soon. I know that has to be a major pain.

dunworth

Relax, all cars have quality issues, especially in the first year like the Ion. I had more quality issues with my second Saturn SL than my first (2001 and 1992 respectively). Some of the quality problems took four times to sort out. The local dealership worked to address my concerns and I was patient with them as they tried to sort out the weird noises - dashborad rattle and a weird swishing sound in the steering. The latter was a manufacturing defect common in the SL version only. Both cars however were reliable and generally of high quality.

I know it is a pain but Hondas and Toyotas are not flawless either.

uga91

I've had my Ion 2 for about 6 weeks and I have started to notice a slight shimmy in pretty hard braking situations. It's not bad and it does not appear in lighter braking, so hopefully it's not anything serious. I have an appointment next week to get it looked at, just in case. Like you, I am a multiple Saturn owner and this is the first time I will have to take one in for something other than routine maintenance. I'm sure it will be nothing major--at least I'm hoping it's not!

regfootball

"The steering wheel aside, I thought you were suitably impressed with the value that the Ion1 offers to consider buying one"

Yes that is true and also why the steering wheel is such a disappointment, especially seeing a competitor like the Scion xB which has a really nice one. A case of one item on the interior of the car possibly being a deal breaker because it is soooo heinous.

"Relax, all cars have quality issues, especially in the first year like the Ion."

Yes that is also true to some degree. Sometimes, like in the case of my Toyota Prizm I owned it for 3 years and no trips to the shop for anything besides an oil change. Zero defects. We have to allow for some startup defects, but not an excessive number of them.

That Scion Xa review seemed fairly positive. Maybe a good alternative to Ion?

dindak

"I owned it for 3 years and no trips to the shop"

3 years? That's hardly impressive. We leased a Cavalier for 3 years and can say the same thing. Do I think the Cavalier is a better quality car, nope.

regfootball

for something with a GM badge anywhere on it that was quite impressive.

most GM badged cars have been in for 4 or 5 things by then. Especially if it has a v6, then were talking leaking intake manifolds.

dindak

Whatever you think.

mtena

Cadillac was much improved in the most recent JD Power initial-quality study; it was no. 2 on the list, right below Lexus. Chevrolet was slightly above average.

Saturn, Saab and Hummer fared poorly.

dunworth

I think GM cars are a lot better than most people think. The plant here in Oshawa (just outside of Toronto) which produces Buick Century/Regal and Chev Impala/Monte Carlo is considered one of the best plants on the planet and the best in NA for initial quality according to JD Powers.

Having owned Japanese and Saturn I can attest to the fact that while Toyotas and Hondas are more refined and nicer overall, the quality gap with Saturn is pretty small. I have had quality issues with both my Corolla and Civic (two defects on each) which have been properly fixed by my local dealers.

Yes GM is having some V6 problems but some Honda V6s are eating trannies and some Toyotas engines have sludging problems. None of these cars is perfect.

The Scion would probably be a good choice for you but it is pretty small. With a baby seat (they take up a lot of room), the added space of an Ion would be a better choice IMHO.

vuefor2

Regfootball ::: Sorry we don't all have time to pick apart every minute thing in every car.

Crashman ::: No issues with our Ion yet. We have had it since January.

mtena ::: I read in the paper most of the "issues" with the Hummer were with people complaining about mileage. I find that to be very funny.

alpha01

I was sent a JD Power survey recently in regards to purchasing a Nissan. I do not think it was an Initial Quality Survey (I think it was Customer Satisfaction), but the one of the questions under problems/dislikes did ask about fuel economy and was worded like "Actual fuel economy not as advertised".

So maybe the Hummer people are not getting the MPG that is shown on the new vehicle sticker, and since it is so low anyway, they are hypersensitive, and justly indicating that their fuel economy is horrible.

I am no big Saturn fan, but I think the Initial Quality survey is bunk. I'd buy any Saturn any day over a Ford product, even if Ford scores slightly higher in I Qual. Heck, initial problems are under warranty! I'd surely go for a vehicle that does better on the Dependability Study.

~alpha

dindak

We have had 2 issues over 3 years with our Intrigue and none with our Alero over 1 year (thought there was a small crack in the headlight case which was not a defect IMO). While Honda and Toyota on average are slightly better in terms of defects, it's not a significant factor any more in my mind.

a_l_hubcaps

Just to add another piece of anecdotal evidence... Our 1998 Intrigue base model had the worst initial quality of any car I've ever seen. Interestingly it has turned out to be a decent vehicle so far; we have never had a serious mechanical failure or anything like that. But when it was new, parts were quite literally falling off the car on a regular basis. Interior parts would just fall off, seatbelts would jam up constantly, body parts rattled because a bunch of screws had never been installed at the factory, bizarre electrical problems would pop up without warning, etc. I have always liked GM cars, but the first year or two of Intrigue ownership made me wonder if they had completely abandoned the concept of quality control. However, judging from the recent Powers initial quality surveys, it seems like they are making a serious effort to improve. It wouldn't take much; some minor improvements in trim parts quality and an effort to make sure parts were being installed correctly at the factory would have solved most of the problems we experienced with the Intrigue.

-Andrew L

regfootball

What 'follow the pack' 'I wear golf logo shirts all the time' 'It has the Lexus name on it it can't have any flaws or I'll be embarrassed by my friends' Lexus buyer is actually gonna admit something is wrong if it was?

Initial quality doesn't say much at all about dependability from year 2 to year 7. Its nice to see who scores high but a lot of folks would say that long term the order of finish may be changed.

"time to pick apart every minute thing in every car".

Who needs to have time to rag on the lame steering wheel. Its right there in your lap to see and feel and forming an impression on its subpar presentation takes about .23 seconds. Its not 'picking it apart'. Its an immediate response to something that is presented in blatant fashion. Just like the Aztek. You don't have to even contemplate it. Its right there.

threads

I have exactly the same issue(s). Dealer said to have replaced the the "upper struts" but the front noise when turning the steering wheel persists. Also, I also can hear the swishing sound from the steering wheel as well. One other issue I have with this ION3 is the cabinet fan motor, it is relatively loud compare to other cars I have driven. It sound like a loud computer cpu/case fan regardless of fan speed. Almost forgot, it seems the electronically power assist for the steering wheel is not very consistence most of the time.

Question for ION owners; How is the cool air conditioning in the car? I don't feel that it is cool enough.

dunworth

threads: I might be able to help you on at least one of your problems. I had 2001 Saturn SL which made the swishing sound when you turn the wheel during parking or other low speed turns. I had a whole new steerng column replaced but that was not the problem. There is actually a spring in the steering wheel which pushes against the airbag which causes the sound in some vehicles. There was no fix for this in my car, perhaps it is different on the Ion. Let us know how you make out.

dindak I totally agree with you that Toyota and Honda's IQS scores are not enough of a difference to base a decision. That friend I went Ion shopping with has decided against the Ion and going to do what you did - get a value priced GM mid size. He gets a GM supplier discount on top of having a GM Visa card. I think he will get a Buick Century Custom. With all his discounts, it is within $1000 of an loaded Ion3, (less than $25 K - he is in the Toronto area as well). He cannot justify spending an extra $8 to 10K for a base V6 Camry/Accord.

dindak

Century? Ack, how old is the guy? We had a Century as a rental once and I have never driven a car with such soft suspension. If he wants a Buick tell him to get a Regal at least.

debdoozy

"Question for ION owners; How is the cool air conditioning in the car? I don't feel that it is cool enough."

Actually, mine feels like it can get too cold, but you won't hear me complaining in this Georgia heat.

vuefor2

Threads ::: Our air is ICEY cold.

Regfootball ::: You have pretty much picked on everything Ion over the few months I've been here. The wheel is just the tip of the berg for you.

dunworth

My friend's age is the same as mine, late thirties. Your point is well taken about the Century's spongy ride, but in the Century's defence, it has really improved in recent years. It is a little more Oldsmobile-like now, since that brand is being phased out. We both like the Regal variant better too but it is out of his price range. Too bad the mighty Intrigue is being phased out because that is my favorite GM mid-size car (again it is out of his price range). Although until recently Oldsmobiles were also not popular in our age bracket either. Most younger people preferred the Pontiacs etc.

dindak

Ya, I had no interest in Oldsmobile until the last generation. I still have no interest in any Buick except maybe a Regal GS or a RDV. Even the Regal is a bit spongy, I know the Century is worse. That all said, it's a very reliable car.

regfootball

and maybe could you at least REMEMBER the posts where I said the Ion is a decent choice for those who like it in spite of all its issues?

as in.........IT'S NOT A BAD CAR

However, that doesn't excuse it from having a totally ugly heinous steering wheel that NEVER should have seen production and SHOULD be ashcanned ASAP and replaced. It sounds like its in the works and its not a moment to soon. Some things in life are totally inappropriate and offensive and the chicken pot pie on the dash is one of them.

And even the Vue steering wheel is getting replaced as it should also.

vcjumper

I though more bar stool

dindak

What's wrong with the VUE wheel now???

regfootball

it appears they are fixing it on the Vue but the Lseries and Vue steering wheels are not pretty either.