Saturn ION

lawman1967

I do a fair amount of highway driving, for which the Ion is better, but also a fair amount of twisty road driving, for which the Protege is better. As I said, they are both appealing in different ways.

uga91

I'm back to thinking that you are losing too much sleep over this. Since you like driving both for different reasons, then I guess it's my duty as an ION owner to say why I would buy one over a Protege. While I feel the Protege is a fine car--and even more fun to drive in the "twistys"--I would not buy one now because it is on its way out. No one likes buying a brand new car only to have it be obsolete a couple months later, do they? The ION is new in its life cycle. While the Protege does offer a better warranty, bigger wheels, a tighter turning radius, a 4 wheel independent suspension and a standard CD player, I would take the ION for other reasons. First of all, it is less expensive. You said early on you were looking for cheap transportation and even admitted that the Protege will cost more. The ION gets better MPG as per edmunds.com info. The ION is a bigger car with a bigger trunk and a longer wheelbase which will be very useful on your many miles of highway driving. The ION also offers DRLs and an engine immobilizer as standard equipment--two things the Protege does not have. I don't think you will go wrong with either, but right now, I think the ION is a better buy over a Protege on its way to retirement.

uga91

Our ION is finally being moved closer to being normal again. It took all week to get the police report! State Farm has taken care of anything and the ION is being towed to the body shop of my choice where State Farm said they would authorize the repairs to get me good as new again. Finally.

regfootball

anyone who is a Protege fan should wait for the new 3. My bet is the Mazda 3 will be incredibly superior in all aspects to the Ion. Yes it will cost more, though. If you buy a current Protege it will still be a good ride and has a pleasing design the Ion doesn't. I would bet the 3 will match or exceed the Ion in terms of highway cruising while lengthening its superior lead in handling dynamics. It will also offer superior seating and space, ala Focus.

lawman1967

What makes the Protege so attractive right now (besides the car) is the $2500 rebate. The Mazda 3, however good it will be, will certainly lack that key feature.

afk_x

Sat in one today to check out the interior. I looked at it. I said - yup - its different.

Now - I'm not one of those interior people. In fact I could give a rip about whether the plastic is pleasing to the touch or look. I mean - who cares if the plastic is "soft touch" or hard as a rock?? As for the look - well - I'm not looking at it. To me the look ranks second to last - right after how it feels...

But I digress...

So I didn't think much of it - till I got into a Lexus RX300 we have on the lot. Hmmm similar "soft touch" plastic interior. Now - I'm sure the gaps in the interior are smaller on the Lexus. No doubt - my untrained eyes fail to differntiate between the brushed alluminum in the Lexus dash (its a Silversport) and that of the ION. Who knows - maybe the critics will actually LIKE the ION interior now. Naw... doubt it.

I was too busy to drive it - so I cannot comment on the lower noise level - nor the recalibrated electric steering. I'll let you know probably next week.

I seriously doubt there will be much difference. Heck when I drove the 03 Civic LX back to back with an 03 ION2 I preferred the ION by quite a bit for the greater power, handling, room, and solid feel at highway speed. Then again - I'm not an auto critic...

afk_x

Ooooh. Nimble car. Cool interior!

What kills it for me is the noise level. LOUD car at 65-70 - and gets worse from there. Kinda like an Escape. Pretty cool until you get the hurricane noise goin at 70....

lawman1967

Yes, the car is much louder than the Ion, but not as bad as you describe (at least not the 5 speed example I drove). Engine and wind noise intrude from 65 and at 75 are a bit annoying, but not enough to make the car unusable for trips. Actually noise level is about the same as the economy cars I remember from the mid 80s.

The Ion is as quiet or quieter than my wife's 2001 L200 though, and almost as quiet as my Mitsubishi Galant (an extremely quiet car).

afk_x

Could have been the example I drove. Then again I like to cruise around 80-85 so that could be it too...

uga91

lawman hit the nail on the head--with price a huge factor in this deal, the 3 will not be a good choice instead of the ION. The Protege has the edge over the 3 there. Of course, the ION still has the Protege beat on pricing.

vocus

What model of Protege are you comparing to what model of ION though? That could make a big difference. And although it's not a factor here for 'lawman', the Protege comes in a wagon body style with more cargo accessibility than the ION or Protege sedan.

I would personally pick the Protege over the ION because I like the interior better, the car has a proven reliability record, and they are comfortable to drive even though a little noisy. I couldn't say the same for the ION I test drove, it hurt my legs and back just sitting in it.

lawman1967

Comparisons of price aren't the same for me as everyone else as with the Ion, in addition to the $2000 fctory rebate, I also get a $1000 owner loyalty rebate and another $950 or so for my GMS discount (my mother is retired GM), compared to just a $2500 rebate on the Protege.

Without my extra discounts, the Protege DX and Ion 1 are about the same price and are similarly equipped. I would buy a Protege LX as the extra equipment seems to fit the car, whereas if I bought the Ion, I would stick to the base model as price is a stronger motivator to buy the Saturn.

What his means is I like the Protege better, but if I compromise on options, I can get an Ion so cheap that the choice is very tough. If I moved up to the Ion 2, it would cost me the same as a Protege DX and I would just go with the Protege, which I think, all things considered, is a better car.

uga91

You have made it clear that you think the ION is weird and that you are only considering the ION over the Protege for the ION's price tag. That is a bad move. Buy the car you like. You like the Protege. Buy one. Enjoy!

vocus

I have to agree with 'uga91'. Buy a car you will enjoy driving, as you are the one who has to make the payments and drive the car all the time.

uga91

How is your PT holding up? My mother-in-law bought a 2004 PT Cruiser GT over the weekend. It's her second PT--she loves them!

regfootball

PT has a very nice interior, even the base model.

pat

before we get waaay off-topic here, let me ask that those of you who are interested meet up with vocus in our Chrysler PT Cruiser discussion. He's alive and well over there and will be happy to talk about his new ride with you.

This is pretty much the wrong place to pursue that subject, as you can see by the subject matter ....

;-)

vuefor2

I like the Ion better than the Mazda mainly because of the highway ride and the dealership. My wife commutes in the Ion and it's a much better car for that. In terms of service, I am not a fan of our local Mazda dealer so the Protege was eliminated from our shopping list.

I'll have to go see the 2004 Ion interior, sounds like it's better than the 2003.

uga91

I checked the most recent sales figures for the ION--July, 2003--and they look better. Saturn sold 11,549 units last July. Maybe things are looking up for the ION now. It placed 12th overall of all sedans sold. ION outsold Protege, Neon, Spectra, Sentra, Elantra and the more expensive (but similarly sized) Jetta. Maybe the upgrades for 2004 will keep the ball rolling!

dunworth

It looks like the ION sedan and coupe are building momentum. I see lots of coupes now as well. I saw a silver one with a black interior this past weekend. Black really suits the interior of this car. I like it better than the light brown/creme or the silver for this particular car.

uga91

I am starting to see sedans on the road every day, but still no quad coupes. I think the quad coupe is a little pricey--especially for a 4 seater car. I think the fact that it does not seat 5 (like a Civic coupe does, for example) hurts it as well. Was the SC line a 4 seater? We like the quad coupe, but could not live with only 4 seating positions. I also wish they offered a lower priced version. But, yes, sales do seem to be up and I think that is great.

dindak

I see IONs daily now also. Lots of them around.

I've only seen a handful of Quad coupes though.

dunworth

I thought the SC was the same as a SL - a 5 seater but there were two different models at one point, and SC1 and an SC2. Rear seating in the old car was OK but the seating position was low, making it uncomfortable for more than a few hours.

How is the new quad coupe a four seater, is there a hump between the two seating positions? (sorry I did not notice)?

uga91

I have not sat in one, but there must be a hump between the two rear seats. I know if you research the quad coupe on-line, you find it listed as a 4 seater. Even though the middle seating position may be small (like on the Civic coupe, again, for example), it is important for hauling kids--which is what we may have to do from time to time. We have 3 young kids and have only hauled all three of them in our ION sedan a handful of times; but, the capacity is there if we need it. The quad coupe will not offer us this.

uga91

I stopped by the body shop to get something out of my ION 2 and got a copy of the repair estimate while I was there. I'm in the wrong business. The total with tax and labor is $4587.39! Only $1820.46 of that is parts. I knew they would need to replace the rear bumper and left rear quarter panel, but they are replacing the trunk lid and all the parts that go with it, the roof rail on that side and parts of the rear door as well. I was surprised to see them replace the trunk lid--I guess it was warped. The "ION" logo on the trunk lid sells for $12.38 alone. Hard to believe. At least they are ordering all new OEM replacement parts through my Saturn dealer--I guess there are no wrecked IONs out there to get parts from yet. That's fine with me. The car is torn apart now, I wonder how long it will take to get back together?

dindak

Just pray the think doesn't become a rattle trap when you get it back. I have heard some grim stories of wrecked cars.

himiler

That depends on the car, and the shop. The key is to ride the shop manager's/owner's behind until they get every little niggling issue resolved to your satisfaction. Be persistant!

When my '01 Prelude was rear-ended by a Blazer and then pushed into the back a Chevy 1/2-ton, was still able to drive it 200 miles home. Body shop final bill: over $10,000, and that was with no frame damage between the axles.

I don't have any more rattles or thumps now than I did before getting hit. Granted, it took a lot of after-the-fact work by the bodyshop, but they got everything buttoned-down eventually.

uga91

I'm hoping the thing does not rattle. There was no damage to any pieces involving the interior of the car. No bashed doors or anything. The quarter panel, rear bumper and trunk lid are being replaced--maybe I'll be okay. About 12 years ago I got hit in the left rear quarter and it did not rattle when fixed--I guess I'll find out. I'm also hoping that using the body shop owned by my Saturn dealer and using people trained specifically in Saturn repair and using new OEM Saturn repair parts will also help.

dunworth

uga: You will be happy to know a close friend of mine may be joining the ranks of happy ION owners soon, based on my recommendation.

He desperately needs a new car to replace the 15 year old Corolla he is driving so he figured on an Elantra or new Corolla. The Corolla is a bit pricey but he could stretch (difference is about $50 per month).

He just found out through his job that he qualifies for a GM discount even though he does not technically work in the auto industry. He did not realize that Saturn was by GM - he thought like many people they were Japanese. He always liked my SL and another friend of ours has bought an SL earlier in the year as well. When I suggested that the new ION was probably a better value than the Elantra and showed him my ION brochure, he absolutely loved the look of the car.

We will go look at them this week or next. I will keep you posted. Anyone know of any deals in the Toronto area - dindak?

dindak

Last I saw, 1.9% for 60 months and $1000 cash back in the Saturday Star on 2003s. Not sure if the improved 04s are in yet.

uga91

I'm as giddy as a school girl.

Seriously, I hope it works out for him--whatever he decides on. Let us know.

dunworth

uga: "I'm as giddy as a school girl."

That's it no more special Kool Aid for you!;)

BTW how are you enjoying the Grand Am. Is it a V6 or Ecotec powered? I like the Alero version appearance-wise but IMHO they both drive really well.

Dindak: Thanks for the info. That's all I been able to find as well. My friend qualifies for the GM discount and possibly a grad rebate as well. That should add up nicely.

afk_x

I drove an ION1 yesterday for about 15 miles.

I'm not one for telling how good the interior is. I actually never look or feel the interior while I'm driving so while the interior does look different for 04 I could care less.

The 03 ION is quiet and while I know they made some slight improvement in this area I wasn't sure what it was at first. Once I had the engine good and warmed up I realized where there is a difference. At higher RPM the engine noise is not as loud. This won't make a difference to most people unless you have the VTI in the coupe where the engine can sit at higher RPMs for a while. I can imagine the VTI would be much more pleasant experience in the 04. If I drove the 03 back to back with the 04 I might be able to notice a bigger difference in cabin noise at all speeds but for now I can say at higher RMPs it is quieter.

The big difference is the electronic steering. With the 03 its not bad but it is extremely light and lacks feedback. The 04 steering is heavier and has a much better "on center" feel. I'm not sure how much feedback there is because I'm not about to take a dealer car through town whipping around corners but from what I could tell there isn't much.

Any questions let me know

uga91

The Grand Am is okay, I guess. I have never driven it. My wife drives it to and from work and that's about it. She does not like it. She says it makes a good "guy car" and that I would probably like it. I think it's too loud for her or something. It seems fine to me. I don't think she likes the "cockpit" style driving position--but, again, she thinks I would like it. It is a GT so it has the Ram Air V6 engine. I understand it will "scoot" on down the road pretty well. We're going out to eat tomorrow night so we'll leave the mini van at home take it out and I'll see what its like then.

uga91

That's great to hear about the steering. On tight roads through midtown Atlanta with busses on one side and another car on the other side and you're driving around a corner, the light steering gets a little nerve racking for me. I would like a heavier feel. Also glad to hear that it seems quieter at speed--not that I think my 03 is loud.

aveman

I wonder what it would take to bring an 03 up to 04 steering specs.It wouldn't hurt to ask the service manager,or saturn rep.Since they are just lanching 04's, they probably cant do it now, but maybe later.

uga91

it's not much.

vocus

Here, we have $1000 down payment assistance AND 0% for up to 60 months on all 03 Saturn models, not just the ION.

dindak

Ya, I see that on US TV. Saturn has 0-48 on the L but I think sales are better here than in the U.S. as people generally drive more small cars due to higher gas prices.

mdriver

Sat in an Ion coupe a few days ago. I'm not going to comment on the drive because I haven't driven one. But the interior (and exterior) is third world. Cheap plastic everywhere, a small wheel with a silly large "hub", huge gaps in the plastic panels and a shifter that felt like it should belong on a school bus. Now I've bashed Honda for some shortcomings on its latest Civic, BUT, I would get the Civic for the shifter ALONE. And what about the Ion's clunky climate controls, still very obviously a mechanical setup, unlike the Hondas all eletric controls which are as smooth as a stereo volume control knob.

vocus

I have heard of some cars doing 0% for up to 72 months actually, but I think that was a dealership thing. Also, Cavaliers are up to $5000 in rebates now, I think. Chrysler also has nice rebates on mostly everything in their line, or 0% for 60 months on every 2003 model they have out.

uga91

That's why they make both Ford trucks and Chevy trucks. It would be a sad world if we all liked the same cars. Thanks for stopping by though.

dindak

Chrysler is the only one doing 0-72 on some cars and trucks. Long time to be paying a car off.

afk_x

As opposed to expensive plastic

mdriver

Well, it IS a sad world because everyone DOES like a quality made car. I like the look and design of the Ion coupe a lot more than, say, the Civic coupe. But the inside is Fisher Price quality and I don't think anyone wants that. If the price was a reflection of the plastics, it should be about $5,000 less than a Civic. It's not. In fact, you pay full price, an insult to the buying public. The short 3/36 (Honda's is the same) warranty needs to be updated to a Hyundai length (5/60) to bring in more customers. I wish Honda had built the Ion.

lawman1967

Well, I went and drove both cars again (as well as a few others), and honestly, the second time around the Ion seemed a bit less funky. It is still a bit strange looking to the side for the instruments, but the smooth and quiet ride are more like my current Galant than the busy motions and sounds of the Protege (which is still terrific fun in the twisties).

The price, however, is beyond compare (for the Ion 1). I will decide in the next day or two if I am going to put some money into my car's brakes or trade it in. If I trade it in, a manual transmission Ion 1 with nothing but AC and CD will find its way into my garage.

dindak

"it should be about $5,000 less than a Civic"

Ya right, because of some plastic? Get real!

The ION is much faster and has features Civic owners could only dream of. Civic is nothing special aside from it's build quality. I can think of 4 or 5 compacts I'd buy before I bought a Civic.

vuefor2

Mdriver ::: Ion is not worth $5000 less than a Civic. In fact, aside from the better quality plastic on the dash, there was little I liked about the new Civic (and we had a Civic). Ride quality (especially highway), power, handling and space are all BETTER in the Ion. Given you own a Honda though, you are likely just popping your head in here to tell us all how great Hondas are.

Lawnman ::: Good luck with the decision. It's always hard making a choice but in the end, Ion won with a great car, an easy purchase and the best customer care in the business.

Dunworth ::: Are you looking at an Ion or is your friend?

afk ::: Is the 04 much different in design or was it just the materials and colors that have changed?

dunworth

"The ION is much faster and has features Civic owners could only dream of. Civic is nothing special aside from it's build quality. I can think of 4 or 5 compacts I'd buy before I bought a Civic"

Sorry, I beg to disagree. IMHO, whether you like the actual car or not, the Civic is vastly superior in overall execution to all but the Corolla in its field with the Protege and Lancer not far behind.

Yes the Civic is less powerful but it is a masterpiece of packaging and very nicely built. The Civic and the ION are similar in interior size but the Civic is 10 inches shorter. The ION's strengths over the Civic are power, plastic body panels and dealer service (although our local Honda has been as good for me). The Civic is about handling, and oozes precision, especially in the switch gear, steering and 5speed shifter.

Don't get me wrong, the ION is a fine car and one that has certainly grown on me, but I agree with mdriver that that interior quality of the ION should be better especially since the MSRP is actually higher than the Civic. GM's new Malibu proves they can do a high quality interior in an affordable package. Hopefully the 2004 tweaks to the ION have addressed some of the material quality issues.

My friend is still deciding between an Elantra VE, Corolla CE and ION2 as we speak. The MSRP is the same in each case but the financing and deals will seal the sale.

uga91

Let us know how delivery goes for you on your new ION 1. I'm sure you'll get used to the center IP in no time. Glad to hear you tested it and the Protege again just to make sure it is what you want. Good luck.