Saturn ION

regfootball

thanks......got any openings?

All I can say is sunday I went to check out the G35 again...man its nice, especially for 30k. Makes the CTS look weak, even if dynamically the CTS is good. The CTS interior is no better than the new Altima.

As Denny G. would say, "what's great about America, is that everyone has an opinion. What's also great is that you don't have to listen to them">>>>

We all have our opinions but domestic name sales continually drop and at some point it comes down to product. Part of doing better and improving is to admit that you are not in top form and try hard to improve. GM does not do this. Maybe now with Lutz its different but we'll see.

dindak

Well I agree there, everyone is free to have an opinion.

Seems to me though that CTS is selling extremely well. Guess the buying public likes it. G35 is a good car, I just can't get past it's weird looking back end. The ION looks much better than that.

wenb

According to the specs on Saturns sight, fog lights will only be availible on the top Ion model.I think that is crazy.I view fog lights as a safety feature. when it's raining at night or foggy, they can provide the extra visablility that could make the differnce between seeing the road more or less clearly. Why car companies want to prevent people from ordering an option that can inhance their safety, I can't understand. I hope it is not just an all out attemp to make peolple with poor night vision,or just safety concious,to buy the most expensive model.That sucks. Should the Feds regulate fog lights.

vuefor2

Any one know when Ion production is to begin? If it's coming in September should they start pretty soon? Seems like there isn't a lot of info yet, but I guess it will come in August.

wenb

The specs and model options are listed on Saturns site.At this point it seems they are only offering fog lights on model 3, the top model. It seems the option isn't avilable on the 1 and 2 model.It is early,but I would at least hope you would be able to get fog lights from the dealer. In the rain , at night or in fog I find fog lights help alot.To me fog lights equals safer driving.

vuefor2

Our Vue has fog lights but I never use them, even when it is foggy. I really just forget they are there mostly. I think any car with good head lights doesn't really need them anyway.

wenb

I agree I was being a little extreme on the fog lights. I actualy need them more a night in hard rain. They do a better job of cutting the glare from the rain. As long as I could put in after market lights or get a dealer installed option I would be fine. I think for the most part the Ion package sounds great. I think I would get the base model unless I am rich. I guess I just don't like power options.I like to keep a car awhile. In my view power options drive up repair cost down the road.I read a Volvo long term test review. The door locks and alarm started acting crazy. It turned out to just be a short in the key fob. One minor problem, I think car makers have to put more resources into the power options. If you are like me, you will probaly have to expect to replace your window crank handle a few times.But, it should be cheaper.

vuefor2

I've never replaced any power options (like windows or locks) on any car I or my family have ever owned. Maybe power options were unreliable 20 years ago, but I think they are just fine these days. As for fog lights, they can easily be installed (even by the dealer) for very little.

jlgolden

Many conflicting shapes and lines on this car! The biggest visual mess begins with the ungainly intersection of the rear quarter panel and C-pillar, and continues with various mis-matched angles and seams across the trunk, tail lamps, and rear bumper. Next, the silly looking steering wheel and instrument panel designs. The overall look, both inside & out is like a cheap toy - ala Toyota Echo, Focus 3 door. Too funky and "youthful" to be considered tasteful.

dindak

Did you see one in person or are you judging by the pictures?

magnetophone

The focus 3-door is NOT a toy.

saturnfreak01

Dindak

Since you seem to be keen on Saturn news, I'll direct this comment at you. Have you seen pictures of the redesigned Saab 9-3? If so, do you think it looks at all similiar to the ION? I think the headlamp design and fronts of both models look nearly identical... Kind of neat to see a $14,000 dollar Saab look alike isn't it.

lngtonge18

You must not have been wearing your glasses. I see no resemblance whatsoever.

alpha01

No resemblance whatsoever, or I would certainly think the ION is more attractive than it is.
~alpha

wenb

I was suprised to see info about the electrical system on the Ion at Saturn's Ion site. Depending on options, the electrical/electronic system is powered by 5 to 8 microprocessors in a lan configuration. They said this is state of the art and to increase performance and reliability. I commented earlier that I did not like power options. I think the new wiring systems are probably more reliable than the old.They have alot less wires running. My concern is the actual switches and motors.The pressure to take cost out of components can lead to low reliablity.I would like to think that GM would demand reliable components.It is cool that Saturn will be innovating in there market. There is risk in innovation but I hope it brings them rewards.

wenb

Just a thought, those of you that really hate the ION looks, If you happen to go and buy one, make sure you post and admit that you were crazy.

dindak

I don't see the 9-3 / ION connection at all?? Where do you see that they look alike?

jlgolden

I saw the ION in person 4 months ago, at the Houston auto show. I studied the car from every angle - both 2 and 4 door models. I want to like it but I just cannot. The current little S series is much more balanced, intergrated.

saturnfreak01

As I have only seen the 4 door version in person myself, I think it is simply "ok" but nothing too special. Sort of like the Corolla, an apliance type car only with polymer, and hopefully a bit more fun to drive.
I do hope that the coupe has some "s*x" appeal in person when I see it, something Saturn desperatly needs imo

dindak

It's ok to look at (acroos between a Neon and a Altima), but if it is a good drive and well made it will sell very well. The power plant is good, the Ecotec has proven itself in other Saturns.

regfootball

most folks won't buy an ugly car even if it drives good.

however....people will drive a car that looks good and doesn't drive as well.

the hot cars have both going for them.

GM has never figured this sort of thing out.

afk_x

I found this site which talks about the ECOTEC.

http://www.phobia.net/~snapb1/SSecotec.html

dindak

Yes, we know you hate the ION. How do you explain the Camry though? Ugly, but sells well as it's well made and and drives well.

Ion is no worse than the Camry in looks.

logic1

I second Dindak's post #372. With the possible exception of the Nissan entries -- and maybe the Focus, all of which started well but have slowed down, none of the ION competitors are all that hot looking. The Civic, Corolla, Camry, Accord, whatever they call those Hyundais, are bland to ugly. The Golf/Jetta twins are attractive to some. VW has a small but very loyal following. I doubt GM expects to attract much attention from them no matter what it makes.

Appearances matter in more expensive cars, and niche low priced cars like the Mini. Looks have not seemed to have much of an impact on basic transportation car sales at all.

machiavelli

Besides, styling is very subjective. It's not a hard science. Some people will like the looks of the ION and others won't. I think some in TH just have a knee-jerk reaction to dislike anything GM, so therefore the Saturn MUST be bad.

dindak

My fears with the ION are quality and ride. If Saturn can nail those 2, they should have a big winner as the company and it's dealers have a stellar reputation for service and dealing.

Have not heard anything about a launch date yet, only heard fall 02? Has production started?

logic1

I believe Spring Hill either has, or will in a week or two shut down S production and bring the ION onto all the lines. I do not know if you ever go online at Saturn Fans. There is a string there with reports from people who have actually driven a test production run ION. The responses on ride and handling have been very positive.

vuefor2

We are waiting for the Ion as it looks pretty good in my view. The ecotec is solid and we love our Saturn dealer. Our Civic is still fine, but in the next year or two we will likely replace it as it has 120K on it now. If the Ion is like our wonderful Vue, we will likely be an all Saturn family someday. We looked at the SL when we bought our Vue, but it was way too small inside. I have heard the Ion is much bigger. Anyone else heard this??

machiavelli

Yes, the ION is definitely bigger than the SL.

vocus

I hope the ION is much bigger inside than the SL series is. I can't even sit in that car without hitting my legs on the dash, even with the driver's seat all the way back. I am 6'2.

vuefor2

Ya, I had the seat in the SL all the way back and I still felt crammed inside. I am 5' 11. I guess that's why most of the people I see driving SLs are smaller women. Perfect for them.

I figure the Ion will likely be up sized like the Corolla was then. Corolla will also be on our shopping list as will the Sentra, Protege, Focus and Civic.

machiavelli

From what I've seen/read, the ION will be slightly larger than the Civic/Corolla/Sentra - closer to the LS200 in size than the departing SL series - it sort of slots into the gap between the Civic/Accord or Corolla/Camry.

vocus

Lemme try to save you some time here. I have driven all the cars you mentioned, and owned two of them (both Proteges).

The Protege is very nice inside, nice ride. Adequate power, noisy-ish engine.

Sentra is small in front and back. Was for me anyway.

Civic is nice, but a boring drive, I think.

Focus is recall city, not so good fit and finish from what I heard either.

dindak

Given the ION will have 137-140 HP, the car can easily be a bit bigger and still perform well.

We love the Ecotec in our Alero which has a 140 HP version. I think the VUE has 143 HP.

regfootball

"Besides, styling is very subjective. It's not a hard science. Some people will like the looks of the ION and others won't. I think some in TH just have a knee-jerk reaction to dislike anything GM, so therefore the Saturn MUST be bad."

nope...it's pretty much an issue of ugly being ugly.

You can't look at Roseanne for any length of time and come around to say, yeah that's nice looking.

Now the Ion is not a disaster, but look at that steering wheel. And that c-pillar....and the "swoosh" and butt end, and the straight cuts on the doors. Wow....not much harmony or reason...or grace. Where is the common theme?

The Civic and Camry while not being overly stylish at least don't offend. The Ion may not offend either but its pushing its luck.

Dynamically I have no doubt the car will be good and the powertrain is a real solid one. Its a fact though, that many passersby will be ripping it for its looks, much more than many other cars.

RIP ALL YOU WANT....IT HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH GM BASHING ITS ABOUT WHAT THE DAMN CAR LOOKS LIKE.

"The Golf/Jetta twins are attractive to some"

More than just a few.....those Jettas are ALL OVER the place.

dindak

The new Camry totally offends me. The rear is about the worst I have seen since the Impala and the Maxima. UGLY!

You may not like the ION much, but you are just one. I'm not saying I love it or that they could not have done better, I'm just saying it's fine and less offensive to me than many other cars.

logic1

Actually, regfootbal, Golf/Jetta sales have been slowing with almost as many people now, apparently, prefering the 'beauty' of the Hyundai/Kia offerings over VWs.

Which I think underscores my point about this segment in NA: It is not about looks, it is about perceived value. If Saturn comes out with an ugly SKY, it is hurting. Convertible runabouts are all about image. It seems to me what most buyers are looking for in the economy sedan is acceptable levels of perfomance, function, and reliability.

And we will not know until it is launched how well the ION does on the three.

Finally, to add to the posts about the interior dimensions of the ION, I believe it will also place the occupants significantly higher off the road than the SL did.

machiavelli

Styling is still basically subjective - some people hate the new Accord, some people like it, some people hate the Camry, others like it, some hate the Lexus SC430, others like it, some people love the new Cadillac 'art and science' look, others hate it, etc.... It's a personal preference. I just think it's a stretch to call any of those cars 'ugly'. It's an opinion.
To me, the ION resembles the Altima, from the rear 3/4 view, also somewhat the Olds Aurora.

dindak

To me the sedan looks like a Neon from the front and an Altima from the back. The coupe looks better than the sedan IMO, more original. Neither is particularly striking, but neither was the S-series.

machiavelli

Yeah, I'm not going to say "Wow, that's the nicest car I've ever seen!", but I don't say that about a Civic or Corolla or Elantra or Cavalier, etc... Likewise, it's not the worst car I've ever seen, and neither is a Civic, Corolla, Elantra, etc....

regfootball

"'beauty' of the Hyundai/Kia"

no beauty in any of those cars.

Kirstie_H

At this point in automotive history, it seems pretty difficult to come up with a totally original design that's also functional -- short of a Jetsons-style vehicle.

kirstie_h
Roving Host & Future Vehicles Host

dindak

I think the CTS is the first very original looking car I have seen in a long time. Most cars seem to look like something else already out.

bravedave

Back in my college days, I owned a 92 Saturn SC-2 coupe. It was the teal green exterior/ tan cloth interior colour combo that was the fashion then. To me, the old car's shark like style looks better than the new Quad-Coupe, which to me looks incoherant. The design simply does not flow. Plus, the interior plastics look cheap to me. The center mounted gauge cluster is a major turn off for me. The original coupe's styling was a homage to the classic Ferrari Daytona. The new car's gimmicks with the personalizable "roof accents" and interchangebale interior trim pieces do nothing for me. Although style is indeed subjective, I think the new car's interior makes my wife's Civic EX sedan look like a Lexus by comparison. The exterior looks like it came from the same style school as Aztek & CTS.

machiavelli

Well, yeah, the interior is definitely the weakest link of the new ION. The dashboard and steering wheel look terrible.

logic1

I an indifferent toward the center mounted instrument cluster. There are recent pictures showing the instruments themselves. They are very nice, clean, and easy to read. The steering wheel is small, a feature I like. The shape could be nicer, but it does not bother me enough that I would change it for a larger, less convenient to use steering wheel.

The CTS is a nice, and very successful car for GM. I believe GM would take a comparison of the ION and CTS as a compliment.

regfootball

jEEZ, WHY CAN'T SATURN JUST EMULATE THE SIMPLE ELEGANT INTERIOR OF THE PROTEGE.

alternator

I really believe that ELEGANT is the most apt word to describe the Mazda Protege and the new Mazda6 (both exterior and interior IMO).

regfootball

Well, here's the deal on the protege.....the interior layout is basically perfect. The gauges are large and right there. The little three spoke wheel is the perfect size and is nice with leather to touch. The shifter is behind the cupholders (no interference), and the controls are high enough above the cupholders so there's (no interference). The radio has big buttons and is right there to see and use the most. The climate controls are just below it and simple. The armrests and door are nice quality and laid out just right. The shape of the center area is nicely accented with carbon fiber look etc. and the rest of the dash has a highly attractive look and feel to it. There's a ton of leg and shoulder room for a small car and the seats are firm and comfy.

AND NO MARSHMALLOWS ON THE STEERING WHEEL>>>>>NO CENTER GAUGES!!!!

I had really wished the new 6 was just a clone of the Protege interior but bigger. In some ways the new 6 interior has the same feel but to me the center control area is a bit too complex. Otherwise, the nice shifter and gauges etc. mimic the Protege.

The other small car with a nice interior is Corolla and Jetta is nice too but small.

The Ion is not as nice. But I am sure for Saturn fans maybe they don't even care.

alternator

With all your points I couldn't agree more.

And IMO the Mazda6 exterior looks very much like an expanded Protege sedan (I haven't read where anyone has made that comparison before).