Saturn ION

dindak

Mazda Protege interior is elegant? Wow, how would you describe a Mercedes then?

logic1

But one reason Saturn did not copy the Protege may well have something to do with the fact that the S Series, in its last year, warts and all, outsold the Protege by 18,000 vehicles.

And this with Mazda/Ford matching and beating every GM incentive.

Sould Saturn pattern the replacement of the S on a vehicle that cannot outsell the S?

vocus

In Edmunds.com's preview of the Mazda6, they said the handling on it was just like the Protege ES's. That's the only comparison I have seen thus far involving the Mazda6 and the Protege.

regfootball

Mazda gets 17-18 grand for an average equipped protege5 and still gets over 15-16 grand for most of their Protege sedans.

Meanwhile, Saturn has to make a special series SL1 to sell at the 9995 price point to compete with the Koreans, and just to unload cars to keep the production line going.

Dindak.....on the Protege, all the panels assembled on the dash will line up precisely and wont have huge gaps in them like cars like Pontiacs. And the plastic in the Protege is actually interesting to look at.

In fact, the plastic in the Protege is nicer quality than the plastic in the CTS Cadillac.

regfootball

simple, logical, tasteful, nice to look at, interesting in detail, not wierd or overdone.

alternator

I would describe the interiors of most Mercedes as "Overly Fussy".

In any case, I had "economy sedans" in mind, relative to this discussion about the Saturn Ion.

logic1

I got my sales figures from autosite.com. Where, pray tell do you get your pricing figures from? Mazda has been offering cash back and 0% financing on all its vehicles through the end of July, which is as far as autosite covers.

vocus

I will tell you from experience of owing 2 late-model Proteges (a 1999 and a 2001) that they lose their value VERY quickly. I have heard that Saturns retain alot of their value, but have no experience with them though.

dindak

Fair enough though that isn't my definition of elegant.

The Protege is a good solid car. A co-worker has one and loves it. That said, it's nothing special in my eyes and the Sentra is more fun to drive.

vocus

I test drove a Sentra SE, and it was more fun to drive in a straight line. Protege has it beat though, but of course this was a 2000 model. Also, I didn't fit comfortably in the Sentra, the seat didn't go back far enough. I am 6'3 and need stretch out room that the Sentra did not have, IMO.

regfootball

was that a base DX Protege or an ES...the ES is a hoot to drive, albeit a bit underpowered.

I think the Sentra is a decent car too but its more of a cushmobile but I haven't driven the Spec5.

vocus

I agree with you, I had a 2001 Protege ES as well as a 1999 DX and they both handled very well for a compact car. They could have used more power though.

And that Sentra is a Spec-V. It's a letter, not a Roman numeral.

germ1

I'm new here but have been around Saturns for a few years.The are great cars,BUT (there's always a but)they have always been saddled with cheap plastic interiors.So even a small increase in quality would be welcome.The other thing I think that maybe is being overlooked is the Ecotec 4 banger that'll be powering the new ION.It's a strong engine,probably one of the best that GM has ever designed.And it will be a much welcomed upgrade from the 1.9 DOHC the currently sits as the top engine.And from what I've heard from a few people,the ION actually does look better in person.

dindak

regfootball : DX I believe. Apparently the new Corolla is suppose to be pretty good though I have not driven one yet. It certainly looks more attractive than the Civic

germ1 : We have an Ecotec in our 02 Alero and it's a fantastic motor. Gets over 33 mpg on the highway and has great passing power. It will definitely be a good upgrade for the ION over the S-series.

vuefor2

We have a 95 Civic and it's nothing special and not particularly reliable. We had the starter go on it 2 years ago and we had an oil leak last year. We like it ok, but it's lack of excitement will likely lead us to something else this time. We love our Vue/Saturn dealer so the Ion is a natural favorite should it be good driving car.

afk_x

The 2.2 is VERY capable of producing power.

http://www.year2032.com/ecotec.htm

very interesting article

8u6hfd

The Golf & Jetta has an elegant interior, even with its controversial cup holder placement (the cup holders doesn't bother me much, nice and high, within easy reach)

Front styling...I don't know why, but it reminds me of the facelift of the 1999 Sentra and 1998 200SX.

vocus

Too funny! I said the same thing about the IONO when I saw it for the first time. That, and that ugly steering wheel HAS to go. It looks like it came from a go-cart at the state fair!

And the Jetta has the most elegant interior of any car the south side of $20K. Even to the point where most new cars are making VW interiors their benchmark (like the new Mazda6).

csurams85

Has anyone, forgive me for not reading all posts, noticed the placement of the gauge cluster in the ION????? STUPID and DANGEROUS! In the center of the dash?? Unless I have not seen the updated photos, both frame and 360 views of the interior, visited Saturn web site yesterday, WHAT ARE THEY THINKING??? Unless they put a HUD (Heads Up Display) like in your modern fighter aircraft, someone is going to be gazing at the speedometer going past 100 mph as they sail underneath a flatbed semi-truck!

dindak

There are already cars on the market with center gauges like this and some how they have survived. Fact is, you likely spend more time looking at the radio in the center of all cars than you do at the speedo anyway. Put another way, you are still looking out the front window with the center gauges, just 10 inches to the right.

I drove a Toyota Echo with the same set up as a rental once and after 10 minutes I was used to it. It's just not a big deal. Some may not like it, but I could care less.

8u6hfd

depending on how you drive, sometimes your arm blocks the view of the gauges (not everyone holds the steering wheel 9-3 position).

Being up and center, it's still in your peripheral vision.

many detractors of the Echo dash just hate it, because it falls out of the norm, and styling.

dindak

I didn't like the Echo much (ugly, small and a bit noisy), but the center gauges didn't bother me. That said, Saturn probably should have taken the safe route and gone with the regular layout. Who knows, maybe these gauges will catch on. Younger people are generally more willing to try things like this.

dindak

http://www.saturnfans.com/Company/2002/endofanera.shtml

tomcat630

Wow, only two weeks to retool for the Delta platform. The S series was around long enough.

csurams85

dindak, 8u6hfd and others what I am looking at, not having seen center mounted gauges as dindak says there have been before, is looking at cars in the US and looking at most race cars. Having watched car racing for over 30 years: Indy/CART, NASCAR, NHRA, SCCA, IMSA, FIA Formula 1 and FIA World Rally. The only race cars that I can recall that have gauges mounted off driver centered are FIA World Rally cars, as the navigator uses a number of instruments in a two-person team.

dindak, your thought that people will be looking at the stereo, usually mounted lower than the Ion gauges, I agree are more likely to get in an accident. I just remember being trained to look straight ahead and glance or short looks into the rearview mirrors and use peripheral vision to notice other things that are not in front of you.

8u6hfd

The driver gets a LCD info center (I forgot who makes it).

The Peugot 206, has a center LCD gear indicator.

The official ION site

http://www.2003ion.com/flash.asp

vocus

The center gauges are not all that bad. I rented a Toyota Echo for one day, drove it about 100 miles. I got used to the center gauges quickly, after looking down at an empty dashboard make 3-4 times when I first got into the car.

They are easier to check with your peripheral vision. It just takes some getting used to, I guess.

vuefor2

I was reading in the local paper that the s-series plant is being re-tooled this week and Ion production should start next week.

We should likely see some cars in the next 4-6 weeks!!

dindak

Should be interesting to see how close the production model is to the show cars.

regfootball

as in, "will they still really have that center pod dash"?

regfootball

sorry, couldn't resist. carry on.

dindak

I was thinking more of the steering wheel design which is a little strange. I could care less about the center mounted display pod.

300silverbulit

the only thing I can see about the wheel is. It looks like the circular airbag hub is the saturn planet and the rim is the ring around the planet. I don't know if that was the intent but it is the only theme I can see in it.

lmacmil

Just a short drive, a few blocks in town. It was a manual trans. Interior was pretty roomy. Engine noise was higher than I would have expected. Power seemed fine but I didn't really test it out. Not bad looking outside but I found the light gray trim from the A to the C pillar looked funny with the darker gray body and roof. It's been 6 years since I've driven the original Saturn which I recall drove nicely but I didn't care for the styling. The Ion has better styling but the engine noise would bother me in daily driving. If I was in the market for a car in this class, I think it would be a contender but I'd have to spend more time in it and the competition before deciding. IOW, it didn't blow me away.

dindak

Must have been a hand build model as production has not started yet. I would wait to drive the real thing. It must be an insulation issue as the Ecotec in our Alero is pretty quiet for a 4 banger.

lmacmil

No, it was a production built model from the last pre-production build. These are saleable vehicles. My company is a supplier so we've got one in-house to investigate a concern.

Maybe it was just noisy in comparison to my Intrigue. Haven't driven a GM 4-cylinder for a couple of years. I forgot to mention that the interior seemed quite spacious.

dindak

Oh I see. 4 cyl motors are definitely more noisy than the Intrigue. When we got my wife's company car leased Cavalier, I thought it was noisy also. Then I rented a Corolla and realized all 4 cyl motors are a bit buzzy. Ecotec is pretty smooth for a 4 cyl, we are just spoiled with our Intrigues.

vuefor2

So the car is quite a bit bigger than the very small S-series then?

You are very lucky to have been able to try one already. I still have not seen a review in any magazine. I really am looking forward to this car as we love our Saturn dealer and would like to replace our Civic with one down the road if it's good.

tomcat630

"..would like to replace our Civic.."

That is the key to GM keeping Saturn alive, to get import owners who would never set foot in a Chevy/Pontiac dealer.

vuefor2

Well, we like Honda's but we don't like our local Honda dealer. After a very pleasant experience buying our V6 Saturn Vue we hope the Ion is as good. I'm not sure we want 2 car payments though as we own our Civic. We shall see, maybe I'll get that big promotion I've been wanting.

Haha.

kel28

Does anyone have an idea of the cost of this car? I've been waiting to buy a new car just to see if I can afford this one.

lmacmil

I don't know that it's "quite a bit bigger" than the S series. It seemed quite roomy in the front seat. It may have been the deep, sloping dash that gave me that impression. Or it may be that I just haven't been in the current crop of similar cars and my paradigm is several years old. The instrument panel is in the center of the dash rather than right in front of the driver but that didn't bother me while driving. It certainly is a lot more stylish than the current Saturns.

vuefor2

The current S-series is small, I feel cramped in the driver seat. If the Ion wasn't coming, we would not consider the S-series.

Did the Ion feel solid? How was the acceleration?

vocus

I know what you mean about being cramped into the S-Series. I am 6'3 and go for a good 260lbs. I can hardly move in that car, with my knees into the dashboard every time I sit in one.

300silverbulit

I had a 94' SL2 I got used in 98' as my commuter. I liked it except the very low seating position. I traded it in for a 99' Cavalier this summer to get me through the next few years. When I hope to get a new ION coupe. After the bugs are worked out the first few model years.

The ION seems to be close to our L series in seat hieght which is just fine. The IONs specs are on the larger end of the compact class. I think the S series where actually rated as subcompacts.

dindak

The new Car and Driver has a 2 page preview of the ION. Looks pretty good though they won't write a full review until the real production models come out.

lmacmil

I've just been informed that the Ion I drove last week was from an early pre-production built and not a saleable vehicle after all. What this means is that some of the things I found annoying(engine noise in particular) will probably have been fixed now that they are rolling off the assembly line.

vuefor2

I would think the pre-producton models would not be all that great as many are partly or all hand made. Production starts next week so we should see some reviews and cars soon!

lmacmil

I am using "pre-production" in auto industry terminology which means all production parts built on the assembly line. There are usually 3-4 pre-production builds starting 6-8 months before job 1. All supplier parts have to be from production tooling and the typical minimum run size is 300 pieces. The OEMs usually build 50-60 vehicles on the first build and these are tested and driven by the OEM engineers to verify that everything is A-OK. If it's not, then they (and the suppliers) have a couple of months to make corrections prior to the next build.

300silverbulit

was just guessing. But from what they went through with the VUE. They aren't expecting to see the ION untill November. She was hoping that the get everything fixed instead og shipping out the vehicles and having them brought back by upset buyers to have them fixed at the dealers.

This was from a service advisor not a slaes rep. I agreed with her. My L had a half dozen warranty repairs. Now that I am over mileage in just two years. Another power door lock is going bad. At least she is giving me the parts at cost. And reduced hourly labor rate. They feel kind of bad another lock went bad in just 23 months with the car. We have 51,000 highway miles on it. So they are doing what they can with me out of warranty.

They regularly do the coolant oil cooler leaks on 2000/01 L series V6's. She is hoping Saturn gets the ION straight before they have it available.

I'm waiting for the 2004 model year anyway.