Saturn ION

dindak

http://www.edmunds.com/reviews/roadtests/firstdrive/76657/article.html

vocus

They should have not skipped on some of the convenience items though. A storage container optional? Non-lighted power controls (they could have at least lit the driver's PW button)?

They had a VW Jetta there as a competitor for the ION. The ION would never make it against the Jetta, and everyone who drove the both of them said that.

Saturn did give us a good car, but with some things, it just missed the mark.

vuefor2

mtypex :: As someone who is in their late 20's I can tell you I probably wouldn't buy an Oldsmobile. We have bought a Saturn Vue and we love it. GM know younger people generally have very positive views on Saturn. Oldsmobile has nice cars, but there is still and "old" sound to the brand that clouds my mind.

dindak:: Good review though I thought the power train was much better than they did. Power and handling were better than the Civic we tested a few months ago. Still have to try a Corolla and maybe a Focus.

mazda :: Try an Ion before you write off the center gaugesm as "stupid". It's a lot better than you think.

vocus :: the Jetta also costs a lot more so.. be fair.

vocus

I am 24, and I would have an Alero before an ION, in a second. The only thing that scares me about the Alero is its offset crash scores, and depreciation.

I agree with you about the gauges, it's not too bad a color.

And I think the Jetta is not in the same league as the ION either. But why would Saturn provide one to "compete" in the test then?

vuefor2

vocus :: I guess Saturn wanted you to see how much you could get for less money vs. the Jetta. All I know is the Jetta is a lot more money. It is a very nice car though, may favorite of the VW family of cars.

dindak

Jetta is a lot more up scale and expensive than an ION will be. Saturn should have had a Sentra, Civic, Protege, Focus and a Corolla. Jettas are nice, but they are almost in their own category.

Like vue42 says, maybe it was a "how close to the Jetta for how much less" kind of comparison.

vocus

I agree with you on that one. I think they had a Jetta because they are one of the best selling cars in this area of the country. They only had the top sellers there, it seems. That's why the Sentra and Protege didn't make it.

mazda6s

"Where are the folding side mirrors, passenger assist grips, driver's side lumbar support, driver's side foot rest, storage areas in the center stack, rear leg room, telescoping steering wheel, improved mpgs from a 5 speed auto (same mpgs as the heavier L with the 4 banger), etc?"

I think they spent the money that would have gone for that stuff on the center-mounted instruments! LOL

vocus

Lighted power window controls, folding side mirrors, a storage area on all models and not just the top one, and passenger assist handles would have been nice. No small car out there but the Hyundai has a lumbar support adjuster, so that's more like a lost cause.

dindak

Keeping prices low is key IMO, so long as it doesn't come off as being cheap. ION doesn't look cheap and if you want all the gadgets, perhaps a Jetta or something maybe your best option. We have an 02 Alero GX which has the same Ecotec and lots of the things mentioned above. It too costs a little more than an ION would be.

vuefor2

I didn't realize the Jetta was a top seller. I would have thought Sentra and Protege outsold it, I certainly see more of them on the road than I do Jettas.

Kirstie_H

Don't forget to join us for tonight's open, member-to-member chat, 5-6pm PT/8-9pm ET.

http://www.edmunds.com/townhall/chat/townhallchat.html

Our loose topic for tonight is most anticipated 2003 models. Hope to see you there!

kirstie_h

Roving Host & Future Vehicles Host

saturnfreak01

After driving a 2002 Jetta GL stick at over $17,000 dollars, I walked away thinking it was a nice car, but upscale? I think not. To start with, it has a pathetic 115 horsepower, the same engine has been used over and over in VW's for years (yet everyone griped about the use of the S Series engine so long)

The interior fabric seemed marginally better than an SL1,and the plastic dash in the Jetta actually seemed worse than the black plastic inside an S Series. Jettas are sold for a couple reasons, such as it being viewed as a wannabe status car for those that can't afford a real german luxury car like BMW or Mercedes. And, VW has a multi million dollar ad campain thats good at attracting the masses to an otherwise unimpressive car.

mpgman

I'll stick with the Elantra GT. More content by a mile, better warranty, much better price. Only resale is a negative but for the price, it won't matter much if you keep it several years.

vocus

I would not even think to compare an S Series to a Jetta. Inside, the seat fabrics look like someone's old couch. The car is slow, noisy, and very cramped as well. I agree that VW needs to do something about the 2.0 engine, but you will have to wait for the Jetta 5 for that to change.

And VWs, around in the MD/DC/VA area anyway, are top sellers. You see one within every block almost.

dindak

saturnfreak : A little harsh? The only major fault with Jetta is power. Otherwise I would put it ahead of s-series in every way.

mpgman : I will never go near a Hyundia again after my buddy's experience. I know they are better now, but for the long haul I don't trust them, especially when I see even 3-5 year old ones rusting up here.

vcjumper

Are nice cars for the SINK and DINK demographic. But I wouldn't want one without the 1.8T or VR6 motor.

Lets face it if they are wannabe BMW/Mercedes, then since Saturn is the "import fighter" is it a wannabe Honda? A Jetta GLI around here costs about as much as a BMW 320i or Merc hatchback.

lngtonge18

The reason why VW has used that engine over and over is because it is an amazingly durable and reliable engine. Yes, by today's standards, the Jetta GL is underpowered for the price. But it offers way more refinement, smoothness, and durability than the S-series engine ever did. That's why the S-series engine will not be missed and the VW's engine has been tolerated. The fact VW could strangle 15 more horses from an engine with the same number of cams and valves as the base S-series engine and can match the DOHC's torque output shows it isn't an underachiever. Pathetic? No. The amount of power it makes is commendable considering the low tech design.

dindak

Jetta's are not cheap, you got that rite. I know I got scared off when I saw the base price on them at the auto show a couple of years ago.

vocus

You can get a base Jetta GL (which for 2003, is loaded) for around $16K.

afk_x

Jetta was there because it is one of the best selling small cars in the USA

According to Edmunds you'll have to pay around 17,000 for a GL manual, which I wouldn't call "loaded" myself...

Still, if I had no kids and wanted a fun car to drive, had a budget of 19,000 I would get the GL with the 1.8t. Wow! Lot of car for the money and with a few minor mods its WOW! a lot of car

http://www.edmunds.com/new/2003/volkswagen/jetta/gl4drsedan20l4cyl5m/prices.html

afk_x

Personally I'm not ready to buy a Hundy myself. Give it a couple years and I might start selling them tho

afk_x

I drove the ION today. For a while I felt the L200 I have is a little quicker. Then it hit me. The ION is quieter under full acceleration. Which one is faster I'm not sure. But the ION is very quiet.

dindak

vocus : Base price with no a/c and a 5-speed is C$21700 up here. That's more than what I paid for my Alero with a/c and auto (and before discounts). Sorry, that's a lot of money. It is a nice car, but I generally like my Alero better anyway.

afk_x : I read somewhere that the engineers that designed the ION did a better job at isolating the Ecotec to reduce noise further. I tested a VUE with the same engine and thought it to be more quiet than our Alero.

vuefor2

vocus :: Ya but for $17k you will get nothing more than a stripped car though.

afk :: My sister has a Hyundia and it has had a lot of problems. I won't go near the things. You will definitely need that long term warranty if you get one.

lngtonge18

What model and year Hyundai is it? Reading comments from actual owners (and being a former owner), they are nowhere near as problematic as you make them sound. They are good cars at a great price and I would buy another one in a heartbeat, without an extended warranty.

As for the Jetta, how can you say the 17k GL is stripped? For 17k, you get ABS, 6 airbags, power windows, locks, mirrors, 8 speaker cassette/CD player, AC, cruise, remote locks, and alarm. I would say that car is pretty much loaded. The only thing it lacks is alloy wheels and a sunroof.

dindak

Base GL in Canada has most of that optional (including air). Maybe it's different in the US.

As for Hyundia, they seem to rust a lot up here. I am not convinced they are very well made though I'm sure they are better than the Pony's in the 1980's.

saturnfreak01

Don't get me wrong, I do not hate the jetta, and it has some good qualities. Was I jetta bashing? yes and no. Do I think it is worth over $ 17,000 for 115 horsepower? heck no. I'd rather buy a dodge neon (which I dislike much more than the jetta) at least the neon is priced reasonable, and comes with 70,000 miles of powertrain protection.

Was I comparing the S Series to the Jetta? In most ways, no. As far as the interiors (yes). They are both cheap and crude. The only thing that makes the jetta interior more attractive imo is the $2.00 silver VW symbol they slapped on the steering wheel.

saturnfreak01

My local Saturn retailer is set to have the ride n' drive late this month. I cannot wait to drive the ION 1/2/3 . Their are said to be 2003 L's, as well as VUE's available.

The anticipation is building, my retailer seems very excited and hinted at least a couple hundred people are expected to show up. There are no cars from the competition scheduled to be there however.

vocus

I did that ride and drive thing earlier this month, and there was a VUE and an L Series on display, as well as a Quad Coupe. But you could only drive the ION 1, 2, and 3. And all were automatics too.

dindak

I'm surprised, no manuals anywhere yet. I guess auto rules these days so they are getting those out first.

lngtonge18

You have got to be the only one to compare the S-series interior to the Jetta. No one, and I mean no one, has ever called the Jetta's interior crude or cheap, not since 1984 at least. The only words I have heard describing it is elegant, luxurious, and classy. In no way does the S-series interior even come close to the quality and luxury feel of the Jetta. I just can't imagine how you even came to that conclusion, unless you are simply blinded by your love for Saturn.

gsgman69

As a former owner of a 1995 SC2 and a current owner of a 2000 GTI I can attest that there is no comparision between the two. The VW interior is closer to BMW than it is Saturn. The attention to detail is unmatched is this price range and many of the parts are shared with Audi. Two of the best things that all VWs have in common is the great responsive ride and the high quality of the interiors. While we are on the subject GM interiors in general are really substandard. I rented a late model Cavalier a couple of monthes ago and I have a hard time imagining a less inspired interior design. After having the Saturn I decided that a great looking interior was more important than a great looking exterior - after all that is what you are looking at most of the time.

jqueen

Looking at the first few hundred posts, I saw a lot of people complaining about center mounted gauges, so I thought I'd post my reason for specifically wanting them... I have never driven(even once) any passenger car that has a gauge cluster I can see completely through the steering wheel. The top of the speedometer is always cut off. On my '01 Hyundai Elantra with the wheel all the way up, I lose the top three numbers. That's right, I actually have to duck my head to see my highway speed. On my '98 Buick Century, I can see the numbers, but only with the wheel all the way up, which is too far up. I currently drive with the wheel one notch down from there, and it is still too high, but I get to see most of the speedometer. I had similar problems with:
95 Mustang (owned)
90 Plymouth Laser (wife's)
91 Chevy Lumina (owned)
90 Toyota Camry (friend's)
?? Ford Escort (Grandmother's)
?? Geo Metro (Girlfriend)(yes before the wife!)

So since the Echo came out, I have thought about center gauges, and even practiced looking where I thought they would be, and to tell you the truth, I think that after you are used to them, you won't have to avert your eyes as much as you do with driver's side gauges. Center gauges can be mounted higher, closer to the height of the windshield. And since we have better peripheral vision side to side than up and down(result of having side by side eyes instead of one on top of the other), I think they will be LESS distracting. The center gauges are actually a selling point for me. The only problem is that I am not in the market for a small car. My wife drives a Hyundai Elantra for that and we are happy with it- 26,000 mi, 3 visits to dealer, all minor, had rental one day while waiting for brake drum..mine had vibration.

What I am interested in are midsize wagons with BENCH seats.(Impala-based comes to mind) I hate consoles that run through the floorboard as they rub my lower leg constantly. Bench seats also are more comfortable to me as I have a wide back and shoulders and the side supports on most buckets hit me too far in on the shoulders to be comfortable.
Unfortunately, comfort has me leaning toward a full-size pickup since I have plenty of room and can see the speedometer. Don't get me wrong, I like trucks, and I do have a motorcycle and riding lawnmower, but I would rather get better mileage and have a trailer behind a sedan or wagon.

Okay, long rant over, I know I spanned a couple of topics. I meant to only mention center gauges, but I think I got sidetracked. I just get distracted because my taste in cars seems to be so far away from what is coming out, and that's just not cool, so everybody else change their taste to match mine please.

P.S. I do like the Saturn L series wagon except for the floor shifter and bucket seats, so hopefully that one won't be too screwed up when it comes time to buy something.

Another P.S. - Edmund's spell check does not recognize: Hyundai, Elantra, Buick, Plymouth, Chevy, Lumina, Toyota, Camry, Geo, or Girlfriend. Weird, huh?

jqueen

My wife doesn't like Saturns much at all, but she doesn't mind if I get one, since I drive 99% of the time we are together, in either car. Sometimes if I am too tired to drive at night, we have even pulled over to nap for a few minutes because she hates to drive with me in the car(even when I'm sleeping...makes no sense).

But I do think you're right. Saturn aesthetics tend to look more appealing to women for some reason. However, I really like the Vue's look and the 2002 and back L series, as well as the Ion. However, the grille on the new L series completely ruins it for me. I haven't ruled it out, because looks aren't all that important to me, but that gray plastic grill looks to me like it is already faded. It also doesn't seem to go with any of the car's colors. Oh well.

Back to the Ion, I don't see the interior as cheap looking, but I have different tastes there as well. I look more for things that look flimsy or look like they will show wear quickly than I do for soft plastics.

Speaking of interior designs, I also like exposed screws. I have had several cars that had to have the little plastic door panel clips replaced, and that is a pain. It is not usually the quality of the car, but the nature of the driving...On my list of cars in post 584, I have scraped the bottom(between the front and rear wheels) on all but the Escort and Camry, as well as a 94 Mazda pickup, 86 Ford F150, 85 Ford F350 Crew Cab Long Bed (big pickup..first vehicle and always parked between the lines, even when I had to climb out the windows). So knowing my driving style, I always assume that I am the reason for loose door panels, not shoddy craftsmanship.
I don't know if the Ion has any exposed screws or not, but it wouldn't bother me a bit.

dindak

I think they are generally good aside from the Beetle's which is not and somewhat cheap. Saturn ION seems to have good materials from what I have read so far though I have not seen one yet and the L-series has a decent interior, especially the 03 models.

gsgman69 : The Cavalier is an 8 year old car design. Interior is very dated. Bob Lutz seems to be wanting better interiors in the future so we shall see. My Alero is very good and the new Vibe is also.

vuefor2

I agree, I think the center mounted gauges are easier to see and looking off to the right to see them is no different than me looking a little off to my right at work to see my computer screen. It's hard to convince some people I suppose, but I do think you will see this feature in more future cars.

tomcat630

"What I am interested in are midsize wagons with BENCH seats..."

These are on the way out, who wants to sit in the middle front these days with no shoulder belt? Also, kids can't sit there anymore, so what's the point?

Toyota Avalons offer benchs, but sell very few.

vocus

Also, there would be no airbag coverage for the middle person in case of an accident. The Cadillacs with bench seats have something called "Airbank", where the passenger bag is larger and made to cover both front seats.

I would like to see 3 adults on a bench seat in any car though. I bet that's something to see.

jqueen

3 adults in a decent size bench seat is no problem. The 98 Impala I was talking about earlier had my around 200lb friend, his wife & my wife(both average size women) in the front seat. There were no complaints. You wouldn't want to drive for hours like that, but for 30 minutes or less, it's not even uncomfortable. I was in the back with two baby seats, and that wasn't bad either, even with my 5'11 220lb frame.
When I was in high school and reckless (1990's), I would routinely stuff 7 or 8 teenagers into our F350 crew cab, and it wasn't bad until we got to where we were sitting on laps. Also, for ancient history, Mom, Dad, my brother and I used to all go motorcycle riding for weekends at a time with a single cab pickup. That was two adults and 6 & 9 year old boys for a 2 hour drive. We could afford better, but at the time didn't think it neccessary. I think a lot of people who say 3 up front won't work have never tried.

As for airbags... I really really really wish they were options instead of requirements. I could care less if I have them or not. I always wear my seatbelt and you will too in my car, but I think airbags are like extra insurance, and I don't want that.

vocus

I would much rather hit an airbag than a windshield any day though. Ever been put in the ER, getting glass picked out of your face while you're conscious and screaming with no pain medication? If you had been, I bet you would be damn glad to have an airbag.

jqueen

If the seatbelt works, you won't hit the windshield. Dash, probably.

But seriously, airbags may help and they may not. That's not the point. I would rather not have them as I personally do not feel they are necessary for ME. I have seen my fair share of accidents, and injuries from them. My brother was in a little import pickup when the driver fell asleep and hit a culvert at 60MPH. They flipped end over end several times. Jason broke a vertebrae into 3 peices, cracked his skull, broke his ankle, and ruptured his spleen. I have no doubt the seat belt saved his life(even though it ruptured his spleen). However, an airbag would not have helped as his door came open and his head and feet were both dangling out.

So don't try to gross me out with horror stories. I have been injured plenty of times(dented skull, severed tendons, hyperextended knee, broken teeth, etc.) and have been to the ER more than once. I just think the odds of me getting into an accident where an airbag will make a difference are small enough that they do not justify paying for airbags to be installed in every vehicle sold in America.

jqueen

I haven't heard yet- Is Ion going to have optional or standard ABS?

I like GM's trend to optional.. I never could get used to pushing down harder when you start to skid. I really dislike the ABS on our Buick Century, even though it does work.

I'm assuming there will be no traction control as this is not an up-level car? It would be cool if traction control became available on more cars. That is a safety feature I might be interested in, but I'd have to try it first.

vocus

ABS is optional on the ION, and so is traction control. But you have to get ABS to get TRAC.

dindak

Optional ABS comes with traction control on ALL models (ION 1/2/3). I would highly recommend it, especially if you live where there is snow or ice.

I would never buy a car with out ABS and airbags. My life and my family's is worth more than the extra $$ they cost.

jqueen

I don't live where there is snow or ice - College Station, TX. But I have driven on snow and ice many, many times, mostly in RWD pickups without ABS. I have never felt that braking was compromised in any way, and since I actually have a very soft foot on the brake pedal, ABS takes a few seconds to kick in.(I start to brake, the wheel slides,I feel the pedal move, then I have an internal conflict because pushing down harder AFTER you've lost traction is UNnatural, but ABS doesn't work unless you apply more pressure, not just hold it steady, so I mash down with more force, the ABS kicks in properly, and Presto! I have stopped slower than I would have if I didn't have to think about it) If you've never learned how to brake in poor traction, or if it just never became instinct, then ABS is good. It isn't good for me. I didn't have to be told how to brake in bad weather, it is just instinct to keep the wheels from locking up by modulating pedal pressure. It is difficult to train yourself to ignore instinct.

vocus

I learned real quick how to brake in poor traction, the other day in my rental car. My 2002 Jetta's in the shop for maintenance and a small repair, and I had a 2003 Escort (fleet only now, BTW) with no ABS. I stopped hard in the rain, and here it went! I stepped back on the brake, and got the car under control. That was totally unnatural for me, because I haven't owned a car without ABS since my 99 Protege (traded 2/01).

dindak

Living up here, snow and ice are a fairly regular occurance from December to March and ABS has saved me more than a few times. I know how to brake with ABS and it wasn't hard to learn. You will definitely stop faster in many circumstances than pumping the brakes your self. To me that's worth a few hundred bucks. If I lived in TX, I may not bother though on wet pavement, ABS is still better than none.

vuefor2

The only option we added to our Vue in the spring is ABS. It's been great on wet pavement and I'm sure it will be good if we get snow. The Vue is the first vehicle I've drivin with ABS and I'm sold. Whether we get a Corolla, an Ion or what ever, I will get ABS added. If I get out of one accident or fender bender because I have them it will be more than well worth the money.

vocus

My thoughts exactly. I would rather have ABS and not need it, then need it and not have it. It came standard on my car anyway, so I didn't really have a choice.