Saturn ION

saturnfreak01

Some good points were made, but I'll be voting with my wallet/ and it won't be going anywhere near VW.

regfootball

ABS-required in wet/snow. Gotta have it or say hello to the body man when you rear end that guy at the stop light. Not humanly possible to pump brakes fast enough to stop in short trailing distances required because the roads are so full of traffic.

Airbags are designed to work in conjunction with seat belts....that's why it's called a SUPPLEMENTAL restraint system (SRS). The seat belt and bag work together to keep your head from pummeling the wheel and dash.

One of my friend from high school's brother had an accident about 1/4 mile from our home and died. He died partially because his head struck the wheel and dash just the right (wrong) way. If he had been wearing the seat belt and had airbags he would be alive today. I don't think the seat belt alone would have saved him, he had fallen asleep, drifted downa drainage ditch and struck an appraoch road. The airbag would have saved him I really feel.

jqueen

I am not trying to say don't get them. I am just saying I don't want them. I also choose to ride off-road motorcycles. I do wear a helmet, and it has saved me from injury several times, even when I didn't crash. But I don't wear all the body protection you see motorcrossers wear, and even with the helmet, there are not many ways that a helmet will help if I lose control and slam into a tree at 50mph or if I go off the edge of a 30 foot drop and the motorcycle lands on top of me. I still ride, even though I could save thousands of dollars, never buy a motorcycle, and live a safer life. I want the same choice when I drive a car.

As for gotta have ABS in snow and ice because you can't pump fast enough to stop in short trailing distances required because roads are full of traffic..... they are not that full of traffic unless they are not moving. Where you live may be worse than where I live, but I have driven in(not just through) all the big cities in Texas, and a few in New Mexico. I have been in the traffic jams where you actually put your car in park while waiting to move again. I always have enough room in front of me to stop in any condition. Yes sometimes someone cuts in front of me. Then I back up and give them the same room. That is the trade-off I make for safety. Some people would rather pay for extra equipment.

Of course I've also had brake failures and towed trailers through heavy traffic, so when I leave room for emergencies in front of me, it is because I know what can happen.

regfootball

traffic in a snowstorm with black ice. Stop and go........all lanes packed car to car.....traffic starts moving, then quickly stops....you're on glare ice.....going fast enough to make stopping by pumping nearly impossible.....gotta have ABS or say hello to the body shop.

saturnfreak01

By that logic, you can shame Honda, Toyota, and Nissan for that matter. Good luck finding those models with ABS standard.

Even the least expensive GM car has ABS as an option, At toyota and Honda, you better be prepared to shell out those hard earned green pieces of paper to get an upper level model for ABS isnt' available on the cheaps from the supposed best [non-permissible content removed] carmakers

jqueen

I've been in those conditions, just never with traffic, so I'll concede that one to you. I would probably just not drive on those days, but if that is relatively common you probably don't have that option. I didn't mean to rant before, but tailgating is a big pet peeve of mine. Just tonight I was on an empty divided highway, 2 lanes each way, and this Explorer comes up behind me (I was driving the speed limit - 70mph) and stays about a carlength back. I flashed my brakes all the way down to 30mph over about 30 seconds, and the girl just stayed right on my tail. She finally got mad and went around, but not for a while. I just don't understand..she had the left lane wide open(I didn't see another car for a few minutes). I actually came to a complete stop once on a smaller road with no shoulder(in a passing zone), and the dude behind me just honks, like he doesn't know he can go around. I understand being careful when you pass, but if you're in a Camaro, and the other guy is in a Hyundai Elantra- not moving, I think you can make it. There's another rant for you.

But I am still glad that ABS is an option. I know that it helps stopping distances in bad weather and that it helps you keep steering control, but it is not necessary where I live and with me driving, and as it annoys me when it kicks in, I don't want it. Especially since I will probably always have a motorcycle or old truck(for hauling the motorcycle) that won't have ABS and will brake differently in high pressure situations.

bravedave

It is my understanding that the purpose of ABS is provide for stable braking while the car is turning, say along a curve. This is the point where brakes tend to lock up, as each wheel will try to do its own thing. It does nothing to shorten braking distance. It simply makes the brakes more efficient in terms of how they operate as a system, on all four wheels of a car. It helps the driver to control the vehicle better. In otherwords, you can stomp the brakes & steer the car simultaneously. This may or may not decrease stopping distance.

Conversely, it is my understanding traction control is nothing more than ABS in reverse. In fact, most traction control systems use ABS sensors as their source of input. When a car's drive wheels accelerate, whether the car is traveling in a straight line or going around a curve, the ABS sensor can detect when one wheel is rotating faster than the other, indicating wheel spin. Hence, the engine throttle is slowed down & the brake is applied to the out of phase wheel. The result is that acceleration is controlled--- both drive wheels are in sync with each other.

ABS can be confused on loose surfaces like snow, gravel, or also on ice, making the stopping distance longer. If the driver makes the mistake of pumping the ABS equipped car while on such a loose surface, it can confuse the system & the driver will subsequently find himself kissing a tree at high velocity.

I personally would not have a car without ABS. Its over-arching purpose is not to make braking distances shorter, but to help the driver (who knows how to stomp & steer) maintain control of the car when the road gets treacherous. I also think that all cars should have disc brakes on all four wheels, as drum brakes tend to have poorer feel to a driver. They are just plain mushy. Anyway--it is 11:30 PM my time in NC-- time for SNL... then to bed...

dindak

ABS is only optional on smaller cars for the most part. Most of GM's trucks, mid size/ large cars still have them standard. Unfortunately having them standard made GM cars uncompetitive with rivals that offer them as an option.

mpgman

if it were designed as a hatchback instead of a sedan? I thought that the pass through and bulk of the folder rear seats didn't leave much in the way of cargo capacity.

vuefor2

I kind of wish the Ion had a hatch back to as they are convenient. We looked at the Matrix a while ago but we didn't like the looks. The Mazda hatch back looks good though. I think since we have a Vue with lots of room, we can do with out so it's not going to be a big issue when we buy.

dindak

Did you look at the Vibe? I think it looks better than the Matrix. Matrix is looks too much like a high rev tuner type teenage car.

mpgman

I have an Elantra GT hatch. Anyone looking for a hatch should check one of these out before buying. Aside from the incredible standard equipment that includes leather, trip computer, 4 wheel discs, alloys, Michelins, fog lights, heated side mirrors that fold, speed sensitive power steering, multiple variable intermittent front and variable intermittent rear wipers, lumbar support, VW style purple backlit dash, dual level center console/armrest combo, driver's foot rest, super warranty, etc., etc., you can get one with ABS, automatic, traction control and a roof for under $15k. 28,000 great miles so far and averaging in the 27 mpg range in suburban driving.

vuefor2

dindak : The Vibe is definitely better, we shall see,

mpgman : I will not likely consider either Kia or Hyundia. I do think the quality has come up alot in the last few years but I have heard too many horror stories in the past to feel comfortable with a Hyundia. Long term integrity of those cars worry me. I also don't care for the looks of the Elantra much.

jmatero

To each his own but ABS has saved my butt too often to EVER consider NOT getting it. To the fellow from Texas who drove in the snow... ABS does NOT take a few seconds to kick in. It works immediately. No human can pump the brakes as quickly and as fast as ABS can and I have to tell you, it shines on curves in the rain and snow... THAT'S where you'll find it can't be beat. Now, if I lived in Texas, southern CA or Florida, I'd skip it too. But here in NY State... NO WAY.

The current hyundais are great cars, no question. The warranty is great too. However, resale is horrid and Saturn dealer service cannot be beat.

jqueen

I never said ABS takes a few seconds to kick in. It is instantaneous IF you push the brakes down hard, but it requires significant brake pressure to work properly. If you are applying the brake lightly (as I almost always do) then the ABS will not work properly until you push harder on the brake pedal. However, when my wheels start to lose traction, I naturally take pressure OFF the brake pedal. This method of braking does not mesh well with ABS. I have had ABS kick in when the brakes were under full pressure, and it works well. However, I would rather modulate the pressure on the brakes than pump them insanely fast. When I am familiar with a vehicle, I can keep the wheels pretty close to locking up without actually losing traction. (this is on wet roads, not ice)

That said, most of the population tends to just brake as hard as they can, whether it has an effect or not. For all of these people(most of the population), ABS works much much better than just slamming on the brakes and sliding.

Also.. I have never had to brake on curves in ice, snow, or rain. I usually do not brake on curves unless I am driving too aggressively, which is not in bad weather.

I have one co-worker I was talking to yesterday from Canada. He said that most cars with ABS up there have switches to turn the ABS off or on. I would LOVE to see that feature. I want the ABS on for my wife, and off for me. He mentioned that a lot of people turn the ABS off in the winter because every time it pulses, you slide, and when it lets off, you coast. You can get better deceleration by applying gentle pressure and not locking up the wheels in the first place. Keep in mind, I am not from Canada, so if all the Canadians start bashing me.. this is just what I heard yesterday.

But I guess that is my major beef with ABS.. it always operates under full pressure, so if it is REALLY slick, every pulse locks up the wheel(if it didn't, why would it pulse again?). I prefer to let off the brakes when they lock up, and reapply them in a gentler manner so that they don't lock up at all.

I would not feel unsafe in any way driving my Elantra without ABS in NY state, or Canada, or wherever. After living there for a while, I might decide that I wanted ABS, but I have driven where coasting at 5mph you have no steering(you just coast along, turning the wheel this way and that, and going straight ahead). This is with no braking at all (well, I tapped them occasionally to see if there was any effect..nope). In that singular situation, ABS would have been just as ineffective.

dindak

I'm not so sure about Hyundias either. I see a lot of rust on 4 or 5 years old ones up here and that should no be the case if the cars bodies are made properly. I know they have improved a lot, but I still don't consider them to be good for the long haul. Perhaps a lease would be ok as initially they seem to be decent.

I agree on the ABS, must have.

jqueen : There are no on/off switches for ABS on cars here. Simply not true. You can turn off the traction control which helps get a car out of snow if you are stuck, that's about it.

dindak

http://www.washtimes.com/autoweekend/20021018-96829592.htm

jqueen

That is a pretty good review.. I didn't know they moved the battery to the trunk. Hope the cables don't go bad! That's not too likely for several years around here though. I hope more people change their mind on center gauges.

The only thing I didn't like is that I was thinking more than 29mpg highway. Does GM have any other cars where a/c is optional? Here in Texas, you never see cars without it.

About the ABS switch.. I'll have to ask my coworker what he was thinking. Maybe he got ABS and traction control mixed up? Oh well.

vuefor2

The center IP makes more sense to me also. Yes, it takes a little getting used to but it's definitely easier to see, especially for some tall and short who have trouble adjusting the wheel so they can see.

Excellent review, pretty much sums up my feelings. We will try and test a Corolla this week and maybe a Sentra.

dindak

I have to admit, the new Corollas look pretty good. They certainly did a better job than Honda did with their Civic update.

tomcat630

"I prefer to let off the brakes when they lock up, and reapply them in a gentler manner so that they don't lock up at all."

Every car "expert" says that, but have they ever really done it in the split seconds that one has to stop? One would ahve to have to attend an expericanced driving school to learn that.

I've had my hide saved by ABS a few times. it keeps the tires from squeeling and sliiping on burnt rubber. I also remember panic stopping in my old 70's Buick and the car turned 90 degrees, not safe at all.

One problem with ABS is dumb people think they can tailgate and stop in nothing flat.

vuefor2

I don't know if that is really why people tailgate. People tailgate because traffic is so bad these days that they are trying to cut through it as fast as possible and don't want to let people in front of them.

I think a large percent of people who have ABS don't really understand them anyway.

afk_x

I have to chime in on the ABS debate

First of all no matter how safe a driver you are or how masterful your braking technique there are times where ABS is invaluable.

Example : I'm driving on a rural 2 lane road where the speed limit is 50. I'm going about 55 and as I approach an intersection I slow to about 50.

Suddenly a car pulls right in front of me turning left. Quickly I asses my options in a fraction of a second. I'm screwed! I slam the brakes, and am able to turn right around the car as it stops right in front of me. Without ABS this would not have been possible. Period.

ABS in my mind stands for

Ability to Brake and Steer. Worth the extra money IMO

On topic, the ION ABS is an advanced Bosch 8.1 4 channel system. Most small cars in this price range use a 2 or 3 channel system for their ABS.

The 8.1 system pulses the brakes about 8 times faster than the previous system used in the S.

lngtonge18

No such thing as 2 channel ABS on a car. The small car class uses either 3 or 4 channels. Nothing new or advanced about the Ion's ABS system in that respect.

regfootball

I went to some software CAD training today.

The workstations were laid out kinda odd. The desk space in front of you was open the the monitor tray was off to the right side so as not to block your view to the front of the room. The projection screen upfront was directly ahead.

As the day progressed and I had to continuously go back and forth between looking on my own screen and the image on the projector screen directly ahead all I can remember thinking was how annoying it was to have to keep turning my head and eyes back and forth and how big a pain in the *** it was. My head was a like a bobblehead moving back and forth all day twisting my neck. I felt like a Vikings linebacker on 3rd down, swiveling my head back and forth.

Never could you get comfortable or feel like you could quickly focus on what it was you needed to see cause all you were doing was moving your head and eyes back and forth, back and forth. You could never really concentrate or focus on anything all you were doing is looking forward, looking right. Looking forward, looking right.

It woulda been nice if the theyda just had regular computer desks with the monitors right in front of you.

Anyways, it was a wierd deal but for some reason that having to stinkin look one way than the other all day, it reminded me of something but I can't quite remember what it is.....

bigdaddycoats

is there a GM car that you like? It seems to me like you are always bashing GM vehicles? Why keep posting if you have nothing positive to say? Not trying to be a smart***, just curious.

regfootball

there's a lot of GM cars I like.......CTS, Aurora, Catera, Saturn L.......Olds Custom Cruisers........

I just don't get how the world's biggest automaker seeming squanders it resources and builds so many below average cars.

That said, they may be turning the corner. But the way to do it is not by echoing the Toyota Echo.

I'd bet the Ion is an ok drive but the center gauges are gonna keep a lot of customers away and not actually attract any, which defeats the purpose of actually making a decent car.

bigdaddycoats

You stay up later than me! I agree with the CTS, Aurora and the L. And yes it is mind boggling that the worlds largest car maker does build so many below average vehicles, but I do also think that is starting to change.
The ION is very nice to drive and I do think overall it is a nice package. The center gauges would take some getting used to and unfortunately it will hurt sales to some degree. Why did Saturn go with this design???

logic1

Wouldn't you have wanted the monitor in front of you at eye level where most people do? Or would you have been happier with a monitor in front of your chest, causing you to look down between your hands at the keyboard all the time?

vocus

I don't see what the big deal is about the center gauges. You don't really have to turn your head to see the gauges, you can see them out of your peripheral vision just fine.

I think it's just people that can't get used to something different, or don't wanna.

And you say you hate the Echo but like the CTS? Ugh, that is the ugliest car I have ever seen on 4 wheels!

dindak

Give up on the center pod issue, you are beating a dead horse. We know you hate it.

Perhaps I can recommend someone you can go see someone about your neck and peripheral eye problems.

vocus

PLEASE don't start this arguing again. Let's try to keep this forum peadeful and informative to others. Bickering doesn't do it.

300silverbulit

$400 for ABS AND traction control on a compact model. Even the base model is a good deal. I haven't driven a ION yet but the T/C & ABS on my L work very well.

I think the center pod will be fine, for the reasons Saturn made it that way. They aren't going to build right drive models anyway I think. The first stab at Japan was a failure. I don't think Saturn will do it again.

If it makes for a more comfortable seat & steering wheel adjustment I think it is great. Even in our L. In my old SL2. I couldn't have the wheel up to high or it would block the guages. To low and it is right on my knees.

The smaller steering wheel offers a quick steering feel to the ION from what I have others say.

dindak

vocus : Not bickering, just trying to help. ;-)

300 : Smaller wheels are better. The one in our Alero is pretty small and tight for great steering. We also have ABS and traction control. Glad to see ION is offering it for so little.

vocus

The steering system on the ION feels very light though, at least on the ones I drove it did. I am used to turning the wheel with a certain amount of effort, and I was I way off! Also, I had to turn more than I thought when going through the course I was on with the car.

vcjumper

I could see it being an annoyance if I was bigger in the arm/hands department.

dindak

I guess the electric steering has a different feel. I didn't notice much when I drove the VUE, though you don't expect much when you drive SUVs either.

Most reviews I have read liked the steering.

vuefor2

Are you still talking about that center instrument panel? Oy!
-----------

We tested a Corolla last night. Very nice car indeed though the seats and seating position are better in the Ion. Tuff call, but given our Saturn experience, we are leaning towards getting an Ion. We still want to test a Sentra at some point.

vocus

I can tell you from experience that the Sentra is alot smaller inside than the Corolla. I am a bigger guy (6'3, 270ish), and I felt cramped in the Corolla, like the door was too close or something. Also, the steering seemed light to me as well.

Have you driven the ION yet? I can't remember...

vuefor2

Yes, I tested an auto Ion-2. I'm 5'11 and my wife is 5'8 and we were both fine in the Ion, no complaints. My wife will likely drive it more though as she commutes about 20 miles to work.

I think we both agree that Ion and the Corolla are the best, followed by the Protege. We don't care much for the Civic (disappointment).

Not a big rush, we will likely do something in the coming 2-3 months though.

vocus

Sorry, I like the Protege better than the Corolla. The handling is floppy (to me) in the Corolla, and it feels tight. I had an 01 Protege, and liked it. I trsded for a Jetta due to personal needs (I wanted it), not because I didn't like the car.

I agree with you about the Civic though. Total waste of my time when I drove it. Way too small inside, underpowered, sloppy handling. Ugh.

dindak

For many people looking in this segment, handling is not as important as features, comfort and price. Handling is really important to me and you, but I like to push my car sometimes, they may not.

vocus

Never thought about that. I like to push my car on a daily basis, so it's very important to me.

dindak

I only do it when I'm alone, my wife hates it when I take corners fast.

mpgman

The Elantra GT. No contest. Sport suspension, lumbar for driver, best forward leg room, full power, good center armrest, left footrest, passenger assist grips, most content for the money, best warranty, and nothing like earlier Hyundais. 28,000 great miles so far average in the mid to high 20s for mpgs.

dindak

It will take a long time before I ever consider a Hyundia and by that time their prices will probably be much higher. I have not seen good things in 4-5 yr old Hyundias in terms of rust or experiences. Check that warranty also, much less coverage in the latter years.

afk_x

If Hyundia is so good with their reliability and build quality, and their warrenty coverage so good, why is it their service customers are so unsatisfied?

Maybe is a couple years, but I wouldn't buy one right now.

vcjumper

One of the problems I think they might have is that people who have bought them in the past did it because it was all they could afford, and didn't spend any money on timely preventative maintenance.

lngtonge18

I think you have a good point. A former co-worker owned a 97 Elantra about 3 years ago. It had around 50k or so on it and was repossessed because she couldn't afford the car anymore. I asked her how she liked it. She said it was alright. So then I asked if she had any problems with it and the only thing she could come up with was a bad cigarette lighter that would blow a fuse if she tried to use it. That's it! Never left her stranded and never gave her any mechanical trouble. And I'm pretty sure she didn't do much with the car maintenace wise. But I'm also sure the car probably wouldn't survive too much longer problem free with being a repossession and all. My assistant manager owned a 99 Elantra with 60k and she loved it. She said it never gave her any problems, however, I had to inform her to change the timing belt at 60k because she didn't know anything about it. That could have been an accident waiting to happen and then she would have been another Hyundai-hater. I am a firm believer in proper care making all the difference in the world. My former 00 Accent has 28k meticulously maintained miles on it (friend owns it now) and has been very reliable. I got to drive it last night and you know what? It felt just as solid as my new 3k old Japanese-built 03 Suzuki Aerio SX. I thought it would feel tinny and cheap after being in a new Japanese car that weighed 400 pounds more, but it ended up being a pleasant surprise. I can decipher no difference between Korean quality and Japanese quality (plastic quality on the dash is higher in the Suzuki) and the Accent is actually quieter and rides better. I sort of wish now that I had saved my money and just stuck with it.

Anyway, to keep the discussion on track, I drove by my town's Saturn dealer and saw a new silver Ion2 out front. It does look better than in pictures.

saturnfreak01

I drove an ION 2 today through a "ride n drive" event held by my local retailer.. Upon gaining entry to the car, there is considerably more driver/passenger room than in an S Series. The seats themselves are firm and supportive/ and the seating position is higher.

Upon take off, the ION handles very securely. With 15 inch wheels/tires on the ION 2, the ride was very smooth. Wind and road noise is near non-existent. The power was very nice/ and the automatic shifted smoothly for the most part. The center gauges didn't bother me at all, and at under $ 12,000 for a base model, it's an incredible value and exceeds the S Series in near every possible way.