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You're comparing plastic-covered styrofoam core shells and claiming that the bigger one offers more protection? It's styrofoam, fer cryin' out loud. Bumpers are designed to protect the vehicle from scratches. They are not part of the safety structure.
For that matter... I've been hit from behind twice in my CR-V. Both times, my CR-V fared better than the vehicle which hit me.
I've driven the Gen2 CR-V with 5 people, and it was fine. Where are you planning to put the luggage for 5 people? The CR-V has almost 40 cu feet back there with the seats slid forward (which makes the rear legroom equal to the Escape - a bit over 36 inches vs. the normal 39.5 inches for the CR-V).
I test drove the FEH, and found that it was just too small for my family needs. I bought a Ford Freestyle (entirely different vehicle class). That FEH was much smaller than the CR-V. The rear seats don't recline and the cargo space is quite a bit smaller (the batteries take up the under cargo floor area).
things have been fine since i put on the 2 inch receiver hitch.
I thought the same thing when reading the post about the FEH vs. the CR-V in terms of interior space. As you said, the FEH is even smaller than the standard Escape, which isn't as big as the CR-V internally. I knew this without even seeing the measurements because my dog kennel fit with the rear seat all the way back in the CR-V, but in the Escape I had to move them forward a bit.
OT - Does your Freestyle have the CVT? If so, what do you think of it? If not, never mind.
Yup, CVT is the only drivetrain. Love it. I don't have the AWD version. You have to get used to the "no gears", and let the engine rev all it wants.
On Topic, I think it's too bad the 3.0 duratec isn't offered in the Escape with a CVT. It would increase the MPG considerably in such a light vehicle. It is obviously technically feasible - the FreeStyle has the Duratec 3.0 with CVT - but is probably too expensive for the price point of an Escape. I suspect that the FS is being sold near to cost. The CVT is a European built chain model (also used by Audi). The AWD is Swedish.
up here in the northeast a lot of the tv/radio people do charity events. if you are not doing those types of things, it could be to your advantage to participate in them. they seem to be part of the 'real job', and could help you stand out from the others after you get the sheepskin. maybe then you can get in a plug for your '96 honda with an audience other than cr-v vs escape.
I'm glad to hear that. Nissan has a little car coming out called the Versa, and I might be interested in it. Supposedly, it get 38 mpg combined with the CVT. I think it would be the perfect compliment to our CR-V. However, the CVT part makes me a little nervous. Nissan has been putting them in the Murano for years, though, and I knew Ford put it in the Freestyle. I might take one out in a month or so with the wife and see what we think.
As to your point about the CVT in the Escape, I think there is another reason as well, in addition to price. I think it would lower the tow rating. I'm not sure about that, and I'd have to do more research, but off the top of my head, I'm thinking there are still some very real limits to what the CVT can do. BTW, what is the tow rating on your Freestyle? I'm thinking 2000 for some reason.
I too agree that some of Ford's vehicles should have been gone a long time ago. However I was calling you out on your statement that Honda or Toyota would have redesigned all of them if they were their models. That's not false either but Ford is doing something about the current lineup and they deserve some credit for that IMO. Also, the vehicles they're are bringing to market now and in the very near future aren't your same old Fords which I think most people will agree with.
The American car buying public deserves better, especially if they are going to go whining to Congress for handouts.
I think you missed the second part of that story. Yes the media inundated us with stories of how GM and Ford might need government handouts. Even GWB said something about it. The part most people missed, apparently the mass media too, is that Bill Ford came out immediately after that and announced Ford's 2005 profit, which was somewhere in the billions, and denounced any rumors of them asking for government handouts. Notice that you haven't heard anyting about it in the news since then?
They owe it to themselves to do a little research, and at least CR subscribers are doing that.
I'm with you there. But I also think too many people give CR too much weight in their decision. I feel you're only hurting yourself if you do that.
How in the heck can you still make a statement like this when it has been shown dozens of times (even someone answering this post) that a Honda vehicle is not more expensive than (insert domestic nameplate here).
I think you are just showing how poor a negotiator you are when it comes to purchasing a vehicle.
I'll be happy to act as a purchasing agent for your next purchase as long as I can pocket the difference from the "thousands" extra a Honda (or other import ) costs.
Do you honestly think even with their superior quality, reliability, etc. Honda, Toyota and other imports would survive in this market if their products cost "thousands" more than the competition??
So, you're using costs to make a point about crash safety.
Which do you think is cheaper to fix... the people in the car, or the sheetmetal on the car?
I'll take the vehicle that protects the occupants before the vehicle that saves itself from scratches.
In some cases, yes. People believe some cars are worth it. Take the Odyssey vs Freestar as one example.
Anyway, the mission of this site is to take the scores from the IIHS and NHTSA and rank it based on how much weight those score should matter in the real world. For example, we all know that a frontal crash is more likely than a side impact crash. So data from those crashes should be weighed more heavily. That seems simple enough. This site figures out how much weight should be assigned based on real world crash data.
In addition to the details, this site provides an overall assessment of risk. The lower the score, the better the vehicle.
Results?
The 2006 CR-V earns a below average score of 78.
A similar 2006 Escape earns a score of 120 representing an above-average risk. Without side airbags, it rises up to 144.
Details here.
Which do you think is cheaper to fix... the people in the car, or the sheetmetal on the car?
I'll take the vehicle that protects the occupants before the vehicle that saves itself from scratches.
I agree 100%. I especially like your point about the styrofoam in the bumpers. They call them "5 MPH" bumpers for a reason, which is...they can absorb impacts up to 5 MPH.
That's why I keep going back to the point that Honda makes side and curtain airbags standard on everything but the Insight and the S2000. You have to pay extra for them on the Escape, if you can find them. Also, the CR-V has standard stability control, which the Escape doesn't even offer. According to a lot of experts I've read, they see it as THE biggest safety improvement since seatbelts.
:surprise:
Nothing but the best in safety for my family!
:shades:
Side impact fatality risk increases 45% w/o the airbags;
rollover fatality risk increases 31% w/o ESC.
:surprise:
Interestingly, the minute Kia Rio scored 111 points, b/c it was equipped with Stability Control and Side Airbags!
I'm afraid to see what happened with the Quest in '04 after Ford quit putting them together. :shades:
Steve, Host
2000 lbs is correct. I suspect the Escape would also be 2000. But CVT could be optional, or even standard with the 2.4 engine.
I wonder why the Escape Hybrid with side airbags (144) was so much worse that the normal Escape? I suppose it is because it has a higher rollover risk, but why is that? Maybe the batteries make it top-heavy?
i don't worry about it much.
:confuse:
even in a minor accident the cr-v is more likely to suffer more expensive damage when hit from behind.
i posted a couple of pictures on carspace of my expedition after i hit another vehicle at about 50 mph.
potentially, you are safer having side airbags and stability control. practically, i think the the benefit is unlikely.
To use your examples, the top trim Freestar has an MSRP of $30305 . Pretty close to an Odyssey EX-L. Add options to the Freestar and the price is beyond the Odyssey. Someone could easily pay the same or more for the Freestar as they would for the Odyssey.
I wouldn't, but I bet someone somewhere did. As they did for their Escape.
i have seen this report from previous years.
if anything, at first glance, it looks like side airbags mean nothing.
love that GES (general estimating system).
how would you classify a 2 vehicle collision hitting at perpendicular angles?
Even a stealership is required to disclose that. So, even a monkey could buy a Freestar for thousands less than an Odyssey. Use that money for extra bananas! :shades:
Also, your main concern is the expense of being rear-ended, but if that is true, the other driver is almost ALWAYS at fault, meaning that even in a no fault state, you are paying a small percentage of your deductible.
Your main reason for ruling out the CR-V appears to hold less than little water.
Let me first make it clear that I'm all for side air bags so I don't get jumped on too.
Regarding angle collisions being common, I recall a TV story from a few years ago stating that elderly drivers make up the majority of "T-bone" victims. The story, and I forget which channel/show, was about re-testing elderly folks for their driver's license but I always remembered the part about the "T-bones" for some reason. The reason stated by the show for the frequency of elderly folks involved in those violent accidents was their slower reaction times and degraded depth perception.
Maybe these data are somewhere in your NHTSA link too?
I point this out because total numbers are not the final answer when dealing with stats. Sure the final numbers for the two types of accidents in question are close, but who caused them, where they happened, and many other facts are needed to paint the whole picture. Based on the show one would conclude that "Joe daily driver" is much less likely to be in a "T-bone" than "Joe daily driver senior". But hey, it was a TV show.
However given the higher risk of injury from a "T-bone" I'm all for SABs being made standard. I'll pay for them. The problem is that some people won't unless they are forced to do so.
Yes I know they won't be equipped the same.
My point was (you really need to spell them out) as has been shown here dozens of times for the Escape vs.CR-V, a Ford product can cost as much or more as the comparable Honda.
And to hammer it home, someone who thinks they have to pay "thousands" more for the "silver H" doesn't know how to purchase a vehicle.
And to hammer it home, someone who thinks they have to pay "thousands" more for the "silver H" doesn't know how to purchase a vehicle.
I keep posting that information, but this person keep harping on and on how Ford is cheaper, but without any evidence.
I posted a number of links to publically available sites with real world prices that one can purchase fr delivery, while he keeps talking about some small town newspaper that had an ad for a Ford product that was listed lower than similar Honda product. Alot of times those are "bait and switch" ads, just to get a gullible person into the dealership door. Then they tell this person a story how THIS vehicle in the ad was just sold to THAT gentelman, and you have to pay different price.
The factremains, Accord is cheaper than Taurus, CR-V is cheaper than Escape, Civic is cheaper than Focus... when all comparably equipped. Yes, a CR-V SE (top trim) is more expensive than a basic Ford Escape 4 cylinder. But that is not a fair comparison, because likewise, a CR-V LX 2WD (lowest trim) is cheaper than Ford Escape Limited AWD.
I think the reason we have not heard from this person is becaue he truly belived he could take vacation with the money he thinks he saved by buying Ford. Little did he know, he could have saved more money and taken a longer vacation to a better place had he bought Honda product. :-)
SPF 15 does not work in the South as well as in the North :-)
Odie
power moonroof, heated seats/mirrors, alloy rims, unidirectional tires, abs, rear anti-sway bar, power windows, doors, locks, auto locking doors, remote entry(keyfob), factory alarm, am/fm/cd/mp3, tilt/telescope steering wheel, intermient wipers, cruise control, remote trunk release, split folding rear seat, 5yr/100k powertrain warranty, pzev rated engine. pic posted on carspace. 13k + doc + ttl.
i don't think the escape can do as well as when compared to a cr-v.
Ever thought maybe you don't know how to purchase a vehicle. It is common knowledge that Honda's cost more than Fords or GM or even Nissan or even Subaru products. Get out on the net a little and learn... Your just mad because you did pay more for the "silver H" syndrome..
Fords are less than Honda products. Get out a little on the net and read the papers. This is real world prices. The prices posted around the net from some car places are way off from real world prices. Anyone who has car shopped knows Honda dealers don't deal. You pay what they want or on your way you go.
Steve, Host
I have been pricing CR-V's. They are sold near list. There is $400 movement available. You're all right about Ford prices. Sticker is meaningless in the past. I do not know about now. I bought a $32k Winstar for about $24k in 1999 when they were still "feature pricing" meaning comparing features offered to something like a Lexus and setting price based on features.
I always said the price is what they will sell it for not the sticker. I have not shopped for a Ford lately...don't know what they do now. I accidentally bought one of their Premier Line products. It is another story for another board. :lemon:
My 1994 Ford van took 9 hours to purchase. Sticker $22k, sell for $18k. My 1999 Ford Van took less time. I refused to do anything out in the lot and bought it from a notebook. I did not test drive till price was agreed upon. Purchase took 2 hours. Same dealer. Then, I just stopped going to domestic dealers about 2000. Takes too long. Too much work. Too much dependance on negotiation skills. :P
Honda dealers get insulted if you try to negotiate and they do send you on your way. That is a fact. Toyota RAV4 is selling at list now. No room to move there either. I heard ads on TV saying some Toyotas are discounted now. They do run published specials from the factory. At least it is open and above board. :shades:
• 160-hp, 2.4-liter, 16-valve i-VTEC® engine
• 5-speed automatic transmission
• 4-wheel disc brakes with ABS
• Vehicle Stability Assist (VSA®) with traction control
• Electronic Brake Distribution (EBD) and brake assist
• Dual-stage, dual-threshold front airbags
• Front side airbags with passenger-side Occupant Position Detection System (OPDS)
• Side curtain airbags with rollover sensor
• AM/FM/XM Ready®†/6-disc in-dash CD changer/cassette audio system with 6 speakers
• Air conditioning with air-filtration system
• Power windows, mirrors and door locks
• Immobilizer Theft-Deterrent System
• 60/40 split rear sliding fold & tumble seats
• Remote entry system
• Real Time™ 4-wheel-drive system
• Power moonroof with tilt feature
• 16" alloy wheels, including spare
• Steering wheel-mounted audio controls
• Exterior temperature indicator
• Rear privacy glass
• Body-colored power side mirrors
BTW - I'm sure I left some money on the table, but the buying experience was worth it.
Add the following to midwesttrader's list:
heated leather seats, heated mirrors, matching body paint (bumpers, etc.), hard shell spare cover, ...
Check your ads and find the price on a comparable Escape.
Steve, Host
The second is that TMV attempts to provide 'fair' prices for both the buyer and seller. I really don't care if the dealer gets a 'fair' price. I just want the best deal I can get. I know it sounds crass, but I figure they will gouge the uneducated buyer so they'll get their money somehow... just not from me.
This thread is rapidly spinning out of control and should likely head over to the "Prices Paid" threads. I will now be (mostly) quiet.
I believe the original point of the thread was that among the many possible comparisons between them image is a factor in sales and pricing of those vehicles. It's interesting that your single posting was about pricing followed by an announcement that you don't want to talk about pricing.
Please feel free to place issues on the table that you do wish to discuss. I'm sure others will be more than happy to discuss those issues as well.
tidester, host
My understanding of the Edmunds rules is that you can post the dealer's name, just not salesman names. So name away: Dealers and prices.