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I wouldn't say that it has no relevance because the manufacturers do have a good bit of say in engine development. Granted we're talking big V8s here but they have to find a way to make them very powerful, yet efficient. Some of that carries over to the production lines.
The Duratec30 in the Escape was developed by Cosworth and Porsche. It's not Ford Racing inspired but Escape owners do have a race inspired engine under the hood.
Also check out the Mustang in the Grand Am series (I think). It's killing the likes of BMWs with a solid rear axle on road courses no less. It's all Ford and it's all available through the FR catalog.
it looks like it's liberty vs. escape now
Has anyone over 6ft tall sat in one of those? The Liberty is TINY in comparison to an Escape or CR-V. I'll take the Ford ANYDAY over that Chrysler (Jeep).
So let me reiterate my support for stability control in SUVs. I don't care for it in cars but ALL SUVs should have some form of it. Kudos to Honda for making it standard and I hope and pray Ford will do the same for the Escape when they update it again for MY07.
Back in December right after Christmas we were on a different but larger highway when a buck jumped out in front of us. We were in the Mazda6 this time though and had just reached 65 mph. I had just looked down at the speedo for a second to check the speed (I was passing a minivan in the slow lane) and looked up to see a large buck standing in the same lane I was in. Since the van was next to me my only option was to hit the brakes. Fortunately the brakes on the Mazda6 are FANTASTIC and we stopped several feet short of the big guy. He scampered off like nothing happened as we all took deep breaths to slow our heart rates down. :surprise:
I do remember saying to my wife right after it happened that I'm glad we weren't in the Escape because we definitely would have hit it. The van next to us, which you'll recall was going slower, actually didn't stop until it was passed us and would have hit the deer if it had been in that lane and not mesmerized by our headlights. :shades:
We're having a bad year with the deer you might say!
This is normal deer and human behavior. Deer often travel in groups, with bucks generally at the rear. Since more critters are invading suburbia, it's a good idea to caution drivers in your families about what to do if a deer crosses in front of them -- slooow down, give the drivers behind you a clear view of your brake lights, scan the area in front of you, pick an escape point, be ready to STOP. Don't lock your concentration on the deer you see, because there are more you haven't seen (yet).
Judging from the number of deer carcasses we see by the roadside, it's easy to imagine that Bambi always loses these encounters. Not so. No fun to have an injured, terrified 150+ pounder with sharp hooves come through your windshield. Surprise!! This is just one more way you can check out while being absolutely sure you know where you'll be in the next five minutes.
Glad you weren't injured.
Moose are worse, the homely bahstids.
It is more like the other way around. More people are invading the animal's territory. Let's get the cause and effect straight. Sprawling suburbs is the cause not the animals invading the suburbs.
Human invasion into what was animal's territory is the cause. Deer caught in the headlights is the effect. Not the other way around.
I bet you remember the CR-V owner from the "other" site who posted the photo after the deer came through his windshield. Quite scary. Luckily so far only close calls with Bambi for me. My cousin totalled a car after hitting a deer.
I know you quote JD and Consumer reports all day long.. But this guy showed stats that make you wonder about the media and its constant bashing of Ford/GM.
I know you quote JD and Consumer reports all day long.. But this guy showed stats that make you wonder about the media and its constant bashing of Ford/GM.
I watch "Autoline Detroit" and maybe Ford/GM started making reliable products recently, there are WAY too many people out there who have been burned by them . It takes a long time to claim the spot and a very short time to lose it. If Ford/GM can prove over the period of 10-15 years that they can consistently produce quality product their market share will show it. They can't expect people to change their mind on just the promise of good quality.
Problem with Ford/GM is that like most US corporations they have no long term projections. Their projections may extend as far as 3-5 years into the future, not 10-15 or even 20 years like Honda and Toyota.
Ford/GM are almost in the same position now as the Japanese were 30 years ago. They are competing in the low price/low quality segment of the market, against the likes of Kia/Hyundai and the new GeeLee. They have to prove them selves and continue improving, which is tough when your executives want the instant gratification of year end bonuses and are not willing to wait 5-10 years to see the results of the changes they make.
Ford/GM are still behind Honda and Toyota in development of new markets and models.
Everything goes in cycles. Honda seems to be losing market share at home to Toyota and Nissan but making up for it in North America. Ford's up in Australia.
New development is going to speed up when GM starts shedding factories. Suppliers are just itching to pick up some cheap production capacity and they'll be able to produce and assemble designs generated by the manufacturers, without the major's pay and benefit obligations. I read that at least one car (Porsche Boxster iirc) is now entirely assembled by suppliers.
Anyone shopping the CR-V or Escape for Spring?
Steve, Host
A new CRV is lined up for 07' I believe. What does Ford have up its sleeve with the next Escape?
:confuse:
First-quarter sales of small SUV's.
1- Ford Escape: ----------------- 42,268 down 4%
2- Jeep Liberty: ---------------- 35,424 down 13%
3- Toyota RAV4: ----------------- 33,944 up 117%
4- Honda CR-V: ------------------ 32,351 down 8%
5- Saturn Vue: ------------------ 23,207 up 30%
6- Chevy Equinox: --------------- 22,606 down 24%
7- Nissan Xterra: --------------- 18,616 up 2%
8- Jeep Wrangler: --------------- 17,683 up 13%
9- Subaru Forster: -------------- 12,569 down 2%
10- Hyundai Tucson: ------------- 12,192 up 1%
11- Honda Element: -------------- 12,144 down 0.5%
12- Pontiac Torrent: ------------ 10,983
13- Mercury Mariner: ------------ 9,997 up 22%
14- Kia Sportage: --------------- 9,635 up 124%
15- Mazda Tribute: -------------- 8,478 down 20%
16- Suzuki Grand Vitara: -------- 7,215 up 414%
17- Suzuki XL-7: ---------------- 4,787 down 31%
18- Toyota FJ Cruiser: ---------- 2,784
Give me some proof please. I want to see how much profit Ford is making on the Escape and how much Honda makes on the CR-V.
Toyota introduces a redesigned RAV 4 that everyone and their uncle says is the new standard, blows the competition away, etc. Yet according to these numbers the RAV 4 sold 1593 more units than the CR-V in the first quarter.
If anything I'd think Toyota would be disappointed. Yes RAV 4 sales are way ahead of last year but a six year old design seems to be holding it's own.
Based on this I'm pretty confident the 3G CR-V will not suffer at the hands of the RAV4.
The refreshened Escape or whatever it is called, well that will be another story IMHO.
There's a lot of buzz about the new Grand Vitara too.
Steve, Host
The Freestyle has a much larger interior than the RAV4, so they're really not competitors. The Freestyle, Pilot, Highlander, Pacifica, etc...are more competitors in this category.
But the Escape is a direct competitor to the RAV4. As far as the Escape being outgunned, while the RAV4 may have more power, if the Escape is alreay sufficiently powered, then any extra power isn't necessary. I've never driven an Escape, but in general when you're comparing power in different cars, having one car more or less powerful than the other doesn't mean anything as long as they both have sufficient power. But if the Escape is considered to be underpowered, then the extra power in the RAV4 would be an advantage.
I'd agree. The same has happened in midsize sedans. It started with the 240 hp Altima back in 2002...it beat all of its (sufficiently powered) competitors by 35-55 horsepower. Now, the new Camry has 40 more horses than THAT! (Back in 2002, the old SAE standard would be in place; i.e. 280 hp Camry vs, 240 hp Altima).
I've driven the 1998 V-6 Accord which has 200 horsepower, and found that I never needed more power. It was a much better car than my 130 hp Accord, which can use more power every now and then, when trying to jump in that "passing line" called the left lane. Thus, an advantage IS apparent to the V-6 vs. my 130 hp I-4. I see no advantage to the 250 hp car over the 200 hp car, as both will merge in nearly any situation without incident. Any more than 200 horsepower isn't going to be necessary in sedans (or SUVs, for that matter), it will just be "extra" nice.
A 4 cylinder CR-V outruns V6 Escape in every 0-60 tests.
Let's see:
Ford:
Edge - copy of Murano
Milan - copy of Caddilac
Escape - copy of CR-V
GM:
Solstice - copy of S2000/Miata/Z3/Z4
Should I continue?
Honda and Toyota are creating new market by introducing Yrais, Scion, and Fit to lure new younger buyers. Ford and GM are going to be playing catch up to them in 3-5 years, AGAIN.
By the way, Honda Fit beat Crovette Z06 in the slalom speed by 6 mph. That is pretty impressive for a FWD econo box, selling for under $15,000.
Not really. The Vette has always been a dog in the slalom because when you hit the gas at any point during a turn the rear end wants to break loose as the tires spin. IIRC the first gen Viper suffered from the same problem. Heck, even my long gone '98 ZX2 out-slalomed a Corvette according to MT's test.
Solstice - copy of S2000/Miata/Z3/Z4
Funny how the Solstice is a copy of the S2000 too when the S2000 is actually a copy of the Miata. Also how you have the Escape as a copy of the CR-V when the CR-V is a copy of the RAV4 is very interesting indeed.
Repeat after me, HONDA DIDN'T INVENT THE UNIVERSE NOR WILL THEY SAVE IT. :P
How is the Edge a copy of the Murano? It's more like a copy of the MDX but probably sportier given it's chassis donor. Ever see the cargo bay of a Murano? You might fit one gym bag back there.
Remember when the Taurus was the sales champ? Funny how the Accord and Camry grew up shortly thereafter. I wonder where they got that idea from? Too bad Jacques was too busy swimming in his money from SUV profit filled pool to pay any attention to cars.
Yes Ford is playing catch up in some markets and categories but not all of them. That statement was too general. For example, they lead in sales of small SUVs with the Escape. Can't be playing catch up there can they?
Once again, not the whole truth.. Should read " A 4cylinder 5spd CRV that is redlined through every gear, outruns a V6 Escape.....
1) Profits - Honda earning billions, Ford loosing billions
2) Rebates - CR-V none, Escape typically $2K or more
3) Price - CR-V at invoice, Escape at invoice less rebate
4) Fleet Sales - CR-V no, Escape yes
5) Inventory - Honda can adjust to demand, Ford must keep the UAW busy
Are you really comparing the Fit to a Corvette?? This is the silver "H" syndrome again...
Kind of funny how everything that is made from GM or Ford is a "copy"... Can you say bias??
Its folks like you that Autoline Detroit was talking about. Anything and everything Ford or GM do or will ever do will not be good enough. You have been brainwashed by the media my friend...
Try again.. Honda did not make Billions.. once again. the silver "H" syndrome.. Honda is worth how much?? I'll give you a chance to find it and post it before I do...
Which is it? The Escape cost more or less than a CRV? Can't have it both ways... You also fail to mention this in lieu of low APR..3) Price - CR-V at invoice, Escape at invoice less rebate
which is it? CRV costs less or more than an Escape?? once again....4) Fleet Sales - CR-V no, Escape yes What is wrong with Fleet sales? Honda can't make enough vehicles to sell fleet sales to begin with, they don't have the resources or money..Besides, do you know the percentage of Escapes that are fleet?
5) Inventory - Honda can adjust to demand, Ford must keep the UAW busy. What to you base this on? the 8% decline in CRV sales? or is this just another bias statement for the silver "H" syndrome..
That is why I said the new RAV strikes a blow in the middle of the Freestyle and Escape class.
"But the Escape is a direct competitor to the RAV4. As far as the Escape being outgunned, while the RAV4 may have more power, if the Escape is alreay sufficiently powered, then any extra power isn't necessary."
No third row available for the Escape. 63hp is quite a bit more over the Escape, but even the base 4-cyl in the RAV would be sufficient if that's the case... The 2.4 in the CRV is more than efficient as well, but is no match for the V6 RAV either. We are experiencing a hp war out there, and the new Yota has raised the bar in the compact segment.
Seems like Toyota has learned Honda's strategy of covering multiple segments with one single product. And like I mentioned, the new RAV is a wildy popular vehicle here in N.E. The 117% gain in sales is nothing to ignore.
So what?!?
As I said in my last post, just because one vehicle is more powerful/faster than the other, as long as there is sufficient power in both, then the difference is meaningless.
Even if you think the 0-60 time means anything (for a sports car maybe...for most cars the 30-50mph or 50-70mph times are more useful to compare...how much drag-racing are you doing in an SUV?), if the Escape's 0-60 is 9sec and the CR-V 8sec...so what, as long as the overall power of the Escape is sufficient for normal driving.
Once a car has sufficient power (again, I'll make the exception for sports cars), then adding hp just for the sake of faster 0-60 times is a waste of engineering and $$. I'd rather see that engineering and $$ go into some other aspect of a car.
You're right. They were granny-shifting that Escape during testing. They never got anywhere near the top of the Escape's tach.
And, by the way, I've got this bridge you might like...
Actually it should read:
"A manual transmission CR-V outruns a V6 Escape"
All CR-Vs are 4 cylinder so no need to specify the engine. Since the Escape comes with two different engines one must specify the engine type when referring to the Escape.
The CR-V has both a 5 speed manual and 5 speed automatic transmission (BTW how's that antiquated 4 speed AT in the Escape doing??) so one needs to specify the transmission type rather than just the number of gears.
tidester, host
So if the V6's weren't available in big numbers why are people buying the 4 cylinder version? It must be a great vehicle. But I can't help but think that if a six year old design sold almost as many as this brand new vehicle in the same timeframe there must be something to that six year old vehicle.
Steve, Host
How many gears does the CR-V have to redline through before it hits 60 mph??? I'm thinking maybe two...
And like someone else said, I'm sure they were granny shifting the Escape. Yes, the Duratec is actually the peakier of the two engines, whereas the i-VTEC is the one with the wide torque band, but I'm sure whoever was driving it was part of this grand conspiracy by everyone against Fords and GMs.
"Biased editor's note: During the testing of the Ford Escape, we did not floor it, push the gas pedal, or otherwise do anything to help the Escape get to 60 mph..."
my guess is just about nobody.
in my opinion the escape the more normal vehicle. it is easy to live with.
cr-v has too many quirks.
that being said, i'm looking into getting new tires.
i'm not the everyday driver, but i hate those conti's.
:confuse:
FMC reported a profit of over $2 billion last year. They lost $1.6 billion in NA but overall were profitable.
2) Rebates - CR-V none, Escape typically $2K or more
3) Price - CR-V at invoice, Escape at invoice less rebate
4) Fleet Sales - CR-V no, Escape yes
5) Inventory - Honda can adjust to demand, Ford must keep the UAW busy
Again, none of this proves that Ford is not making a profit on the Escape or whether their profit on the Escape is more or less than Honda's on the CR-V.
Considering the Escape has been in production for roughly six years now and development costs were likely low due to the older platform they started with (and the shared development resources with Mazda) I'm guessing that they do make a decent profit on the Escape even when the rebates are $2k or more.
Several years ago I read an article claiming that Ford's average profit on each and every truck it sold was $14k. Yeah the high rebates hurt the bottom line, but they don't equate to losses across the board in every case.