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Comments
Unfortunately I wont be around for the next week starting tomorrow afternoon beacuase I am taking a little road trip. Therefore I will only be able to participate a little bit over the next week.
Here is my proposed list.... I opt for an off roading category even though they are both car based SUV's.
1. Braking
2. Accceleration
3. Road noise
4. Handling
5. Towing
6. Mileage/emmisions
7. Interior space
8. Reliability/Resale
9. Off roading
10. Ergonomics/Looks This may be too subjective, what do you think???
Hondaman, why hasn't Honda fixed the terrible rear crash tests results/huge cost of repair of the rear tailgate/tire from the 2001 to the 2002 model year in the CRV?
The only advantage offroad I can see the Escape may have over the CRV is ground clearance, stiffer frame and power/torque to pull itself out of tuff spots. Other than that the CRV would do just fine offroad. As I have said in the past, I would not take either of these into sever offroad terrain. These are car based frames and don't like to bend and twist. I have had my Escape on access roads/logging roads and its done just fine, as I am sure a CRV would also do just fine.
Crash tests have been beat to death.. Wonder why our hosts haven't said a word??
The Escape is not the tin can and as unsafe as Honda CRV owners want so badly to portray. Anyone can search the net and find this out for themselves.
On the other side, the CRV probably has an advantage in the snow because of its narrow tires.
As far as snow goes, narrower tires may be better in deep snow, but on packed snow and patchy ice, you actually want wider tires, so you've got more of a chance of rubber grabbing something that won't slip.
Scape..............I am sure that Honda will fix the problem if they find that there is one BUT they just found out about this test very recently and it takes a little longer than that to analyse data. You have been crusading the fact that these tests are not really valid and don't reflect reality situations so maybe you should write Honda and ask them.
Furthermore, when you take a look at the Pilot's press material, you'll read that they specifically designed it to do well in low speed impacts. Given that they were designed at about the same time, I find it suspect that one set of designers isn't talking to the others.
The bottom line is, Honda looked at the RAV4. The RAV4 is selling well enough despite poor ratings in the same area. They concluded that buyers don't care much. On the other hand, they do know that buyers want truck-like styling and it makes sense from a functional point of view (low floor, full-size tire, easy access, etc.). So they kept the spare in place.
It's a bean-counter move.
So how does that make it "a bean-counter move"?
How many customers do we lose as a result of poor crash tests?
How many customers do we lose as a result of poor styling, function, etc.?
Which is the larger number?
That's why it's a beancounter move. Most decisions made in auto design are grounded in what the beanies have to say. I didn't mean to imply that this decision was unique in that respect.
I am wondering to this day, why (or how)I did not receive more damage than I did with my accident. My door was quite dented but the spare received no damage at all. I was not really sure if this was a cover up from my insurance company so I had it checked and it was perfect. I truely believe that in my case, if I did not have that spare, I would of had a couple of thousand dollars more damage. The door would still open and close no problem and the window was in perfect sahpe. I had 2145$ damage and the Explorer had almost 5000$ He hit me squarly which may explain his massive damage. I saw that the front of the new Explorer was quite flat and square from top to bottom explaining the reason for all the broken pieces and his airbag went off injuring his nose a little. I think I was lucky.
Whotheman, we see that you are posting everywhere and have got your message. I find that it is a good thing that Honda has more competition now as it will force them to re-think a new strategy for marketing a truely incredible product in the future. This may also mean that domestics are finally going to start advancing more which is also a good thing.
THE ESCAPE WINS!!! hands down.. LOL!>>>
I won't let you CRV owners live this one down or brush this under the carpet, no-way, nohow!
Yes folks the Escape BEATS the CRV..
Ok, Hondaman lets hear you type your way out of this one?
I still wonder why Motor Trend used a 5spd CRV and not an automatic? They had two V6 automatics? I wonder how the Vue would have done with a CRV automatic? Can you say Escape first place, VUE second HONDA THIRD!!!???LOL@!
"Car and Driver"
No one ever said that the Escape was crap....only my experience was!!! Honda has taken the old CRV and improved it slightly in power and overall safety BUT has not reinvented the wheel as you would like us to believe Ford has done. That is probably how MT judged this comparison. They were probably impressed that Ford would take on such a big task with this vehicle and has succeeded because they have never done that until now. Honda has a lot more competition now but sales are still very strong even without a V6. There are other articles saying it is the best and articles saying the Escape is not so good. Who do you believe? I will not buy one based on my personal experience and the companies overall reputation BUT that is my choice. MT judges cars fairly and have awarded the new Thunderbird, Envoy and now the Trubute/Escape...That does not make me want one anymore than before. I have had many Hondas with "0" problems and have had domestics with many so MY experiences count for me only! Maybe if I would of had no problems with the Tribute I would not be writing on this forum but that is not what happened. I will not put you down or anyone else for buying the Escape as you do with us CRV owners because it is your choice. I still believe consumers look for reliability and safety first doing research on the net as this was what JD Power said so that is a key (partly) to Hondas success. You have had no problems after 12000 miles BUT very many consumer reports rate your vehicle as average or lower compared to Honda, Toyota and Nissan so what does that mean to you on a personal level? NOTHING! And it shouldn't.
Many times I question Hondas choices......for example, the rear door opening to the right, the spare tire, 15 inch tires, the upcoming Element.....BUT never their durability, value and overall solidity which is more important to me than one review. You can't win them all! Honda looks at impressing the whole world where Ford wants to win this market in the states as they do not succeed well in Europe. They may win that war yet. The Escape and Tribute mean nothing in these areas whereas the CRV has impressed consumers for many years.
As I previously mentioned, It still has more reliability problems, less re-sale value BUT has more power and towing capability as you have told us numerous times. I will be watching MT T.V. on Speed channel to find out more when it comes on. For now, I will reserve judgement until I read this article BUT I will get back to you as your threats of not letting us live it down don't scare me in the least! The safety of your Escape does however!
http://www.canadiandriver.com/news/010425-1.htm
This only proves that each mag has their own set rules for judgement. Maybe I won't let you live that down either hmmmmmmmm! 3 out of 5......where's Ford?????
Can you say "FIRST" LOL.........
http://www.caranddriver.com/xp/Caranddriver/5best/2002?&page=1
Nope, just doggone proud that a major magazine chose the Escape over the CRV in a head to head comparison test. Seems as though the Escape bashing has calmed a bit.. along with hondaman..
I forgot one very good point after all this time that the Escape has over the CRV. The ability to manually go in and out of 4WD and its locking center differential. Granted these are not 4x4, Lions back or Rubicon vehicles by anymeans.. But the locking differential would give the Escape an advantage in offroad ability. I also have a problem with Motor Trends ground clearance of 10"?? and a price of 25K for the Escape?? I have yet to run into anyone on the net that paid that for an Escape. As I have said I paid 22.8K for my Escape after a $500 dollar certificate from Ford. And in the Saturday/Sunday paper ads you see Escape V6 XLT's for 19,999... XLS's are as low as 17,999.. Go figure?
One of those five best trucks is a Ford product. Albeit not one with an actual Ford badge. The "Pickup" category will probably belong to Ford again in another year or two.
scape,
You also get three years of free roadside assistance with the Escape. I believe you have to pay extra for Honda's service which means you might as well get AAA right off the bat.
p.s. I said you "sound" like a little kid not that you are one! I could of called you a "Drone" as you said!
I sent you 2 links one for a safety issue and one for a magazine loving almost all the Honda line and no Fords and you think I have calmed down!!?? Them's fightin words! I was only being resonable and logical waiting to read the article. I'm not one to put down people for their choices like you want to! To each his own. I will go with safety, reliability and plain quality before anything. No wonnder Ford got rid of the jingle "Ford...Quality is job 1" LOL.......
Sales don't reflect your logic on manual or automatic 4x4 capability......people don't care about that in this category! Anyone that is into any kind of off-roading besides the "normal" stuff is asking for trouble.
Do you read the small print in the papers when it comes to car prices?
As Arnold said...."I'll be back"
Still........3 out of 5. They must be doing something right. The CRV even de-throaned (is that a word?) the Escape!
Sometimes it would seem that a new model grabs so much attention that it impresses and then the novelty wears off and logic comes into play once again! BUT....as I said before, I will give credit to Ford for taking on this very competetive niche and coming out strong....they have done a comendable job and have created this wonderful fun forum for us to amuse ourselves! I say we go for a big cold one and argue!
I knew you were going to say that! Do you and scape have some kind of black pot/kettle thing going on now? It's still an advantage no matter how you slice it. Speaking of slice, it is a very nice service to have for those girly types who need someone to come change a flat tire for them, or charge a dead battery, etc.. Those incidents can happen just as frequently to a Honda or any other brand.
*edit*
It is in fact the Land Rover. You're right, BMW pretty much designed that whole thing before Ford took over. All the profits from it's sales go to Ford's PAG now though.
Escape XLT CR-V EX VUE
Ext Style
& Character B+ C B
Int execution
& comfort A- B- B-
Engine/
drivetrain A- A C
Interior
Storage A- B+ B-
Utility B+ B- A
Wind noise/
rattles/squeaks B- A C
Suspension
performance A A B
Gadgets &
goodies B B- B
Fun to drive A- A- C
Value C+ A B
The Escape had the highest sticker price of the group which brought the value grade way down. Otherwise it and the CR-V are pretty well matched in MT's eyes with the slight nod going to the Escape for its utility advantage. "Choosing a winner is no easier than splitting hairs." MT Sept. 2002
From the sounds of scapes enthusiasm, I thought that the Escape had blown away the CRV and Vue but it would seem that the winner was chosen on a few inches here and there. I was preparing a whole bunch of research but now I will back off after your post. Not worth it......too close. The big loss is the ext styling but that is not really a factor as I believe both look quite unique.....(yes scape, that is a small complement)
I was just teasing about the road side assistance thing....I knew you would test me there! haha. I am not sure why Honda has not given this as part of the warantee......they must have a lot of belief in their product but still not really a good idea. But really "girly types"??? Careful on that one.....you may insult some people here!
No scape and I don't have a black kettle thing but he wants to and I am not really up for it.
Truck Trend picked the Freelander over both the CR-V and the Escape. However, if you take an average of the individual categories they used for rankings, the CR-V comes out with the highest marks.
Car & Driver chose the CR-V over all other mini-utes and named it one of their Top Five.
Consumer Reports rates the CR-V as a recommended vehicle. The Escape is not on that list.
Edmunds.com chose the Escape as their Most Wanted vehicle in this class. The CR-V was the honorable mention. (Though the public poll for Most Wanted picked the CR-V.)
Are there any other published comparisons I should be aware of? If not, the CR-V is leading the Escape 3 to 2.
However, the only direct comparison I've read on the subject (Truck Trend) rated the CR-V's system as the faster reacting of the two. That comes in handy when you're not expecting to slip and at higher speeds.
Each seems to have their advantages.
Actually varmint,
MT had this to say about the CR-V's AWD system:
"During aggressive handling maneuvers, the real-time AWD system didn't seem as seamless as the Escape's, which was confirmed when we hit gravel roads."
"Nearly invisible AWD" was one of their "What's Hot" items for the Escape. I remember reading the same thing somewhere else, but I cannot remember where for the life of me.
I still have not read the article in its entirety, but it seems they chose the Escape more for its functionality, as is shown by the grades above. The Honda definitely won the engine and squeaks/rattles/etc. categories as they usually do.
I've never actually read a copy of Truck Trend myself. Do they use different writers/editors for that sister mag? It's kind of odd that they came up with different winners. Although the Freelander was not included in the MT test, and it is more of a truck than the Escape and CR-V.
This is why I would of NOT chosen the Escape over the CRV. I guess this is not part of any test. Go have a look at the number of engine problems. 2001 and 2002 have not progressed.
And we're all big enough to refrain from saying what hondaman's comment sounds like! :-)
tidester
Host
SUVs; Aftermarket & Accessories
Basically Motor Trend chose the Escape because, albiet the Escape is not perfect.. It just does everything well across the board when comparing the VUE and CRV.
Crashtests again..
Varmit, do you know what the actual difference is between a 4star and 5 star rating?? Here goes..
Land Rover vs Escape/CRV??? are these even in the same class?? Don't think so..
4* means you have a 6 to 10 percent chance of life threatening injury..
5* means you have a 5 percent or less chance of a life threatening injury.. Not a huge difference bud...
You keep trying to make the Escape look unsafe and like it will crumble upon impact. As I have said, anyone who actually reads the data at the NHSTA or IIHS will see otherwise. Keep trying.. you may fool at least one person..:-))
But here are the actual comparisons. In many of them, you'll note that the CR-V's scores are half those of the Escape.
Frontal impact
Head injury/driver 417 vs 266
Head injury/passgr 597 vs 298
Chest decel/driver 42g vs 39g
Chest Decel/passgr 44g vs 43g
Femur load/driver 1128/830 lbs vs 507/483 lbs
Femur load/passgr 1193/830 lbs vs 875/427 lbs
Side impact
Thoracic trauma/frnt 53 vs 31
Thoracic trauma/rear 48 vs 46
Pelvis Decel/front 94g vs 45g
Pelvis Decel/rear 76g vs 66g
I can't link directly to the intrusion measures on the IIHS site, but that data looks even less favorable for the Escape.
Wanna talk about head restraints? The CR-V's are rated as "Good". The Escape's head restraints are "Poor".
The CR-V is also the first SUV to score 3 stars in the Pedestrian Impact test as conducted in the Euro NCAP simulations. There are very few cars that have earned that rating, nevermind SUVs.
Bottom line? This is your Escape on barriers. Any questions?
I am still to receive my magazine! Does anyone know why they are arriving so late? The anticipation is killing me. I will be watching on Motor Trend TV to hear for real what was said during this test.
Varmint is showing true data from these tests and this is an important issue that should not be forgotton. Good thread varmint. I am sure that if consumers looked at these pictures before choosing which one, they would be hesitant to choose the Escape. On paper it has really suceeded that I will not object to but in real life situations, time will prove that it is not a long lasting and safe vehicle. 2 years is not long enough to prove much. Look at the platform of this vehicle......basically a Taurus. Go look at the number of engine problems with the Duratec (??) V6 and you will be impressed!!! Isn't this the same engine as the Escape?
Life is short. Don't waste it away by believing everything you read or hear. Choose wisely and for yourself.
varmint,
""Seemless" is not the same thing as fast."
Actually, I think it is. If the system has a hesitation (read slow reaction) in the transfer of torque, you would feel the wheels slip. Feeling the wheels slip is the seam.
Hitting the gas and not feeling the wheels slip at all means the system is fast enough to not let that happen and therefore seamless.
I can tell you that I did climb a couple of pretty steep snow covered hills this past winter (we had limited snowfall here so the opportunities were few and far between), and no one in the Escape could even tell that the switch was made from FWD to 4WD. Not even the driver (me). I was thoroughly impressed with the system after that. I have yet to try it in full 4X4 mode though.
There is no reason why the Escape's system shouldn't be very good. The Control Trac systems found in the its big brothers are always praised for their ease of use and smooth operation.
I am not really sure how good of an example you have given us as alcohol is controlled by ourselves whereas accidents are mostly caused by fools not paying attention and in most cases, cannot be avoided......so yes, these tests are VERY important.
There is more to a car than looks, power, towing etc...... For the prices we have to pay these days, it is important to have reliability and safety as a major factor to our decisions. Do you really want to haul your 2 kids in a vehicle that has placed last 2 years in a row? Or stalls many times? I don't! A car can feel really good during a test drive but 2 years later can start to fall apart. Honda has proven that their cars outlive 90% of all domestics. I hope I am wrong with your Escape but somehow, I feel I am not because this is a new model and Ford has ventured into a whole new territory competing with these big guns and my own personal experience was not very encouraging. Motor Trend picked the Escape on "feel" for now because there is nothing else to go on. Car and Driver however, went for both and Honda was there 3 out of 5 times even with the new Pilot because that platform has gone through the test with the MDX! there is nothing really new there!
Hondaman - I cannot find the info you are linking to. I tried to look up the 2002 Excape and do not find it listed.
http://www.nhtsa.dot.gov/cars/problems/
Go into consumer complaints
And by that I mean I am too lazy to do it.
I certainly hope Ford has gotten a handle on it. I believe Honda has proven reliability. I am hoping that Ford can show they have improved. If my Escape runs for the duration of my owenership without and major problems I will feel that I got quite a deal. If I have all sorts of problems, I will feel I got what I paid for.
Looks like Honda is getting better everyday! I guess that the Motor Trend article will not change peoples mind for quality.
Tide......am I allowed to put this link????????
The CRV problem is not the same and there is only a few.
Don't get me wrong, you have a good vehicle but it is new and some people are trying very hard to decrease Honda's credibility that has been proven 1000 time over through racing and reviews and consumer reports. Honda is a unique company that wants to be the best, I just believe the domestics are ONLY trying to make lots of money and don't really care about the rest as long as it is an average product. A company like Honda could never do that and survive so they have a lot more at stake. If it wasn't for these foreign companies plugging away, you would not be driving that vehicle right now.
Crash testing.. I sure wonder when our hosts are going to chime in and say this has been beaten to death. They sure did with the 0-60 times.. Hmmm...
I find data, you find data.. You of course are going to believe all the data you gather that is favorable to the CRV.. as I am when I find data that is favorable to the Escape.. It goes on and on and on and on and on....
How about those 0-60 numbers posted by Motor Trend?? or Consumer reports? Sure like how HOnda fixed the terrible rear crash test damage from its 2001 to 2002 model.. I thought Honda fixed everything right the first time??
So far my Escape has not been to the shop once in its 2 year life, However, my wifes Accord has been back 3x in its 3 year life.. I expected perfection out of this Accord, because people like varmit and Hondaman beat the Honda drum of perfection.....
12,000 miles.
Motor Trend and Car and Driver have simular tests and different winners. All this proves is that a certain number of people did a test with pre-determined criteria and the winner was based on that. However, I am surprised that MT did not put safety as one of the judgement points.
I have no problem accepting their verdict and it does not bother me in the least. They have a lot of courage to say that Ford actually did beat the CRV cause they praised it so hard for about 5 years now only to change towards the Escapes favour. Good for them. As I previously mentioned, you are not driving a bad vehicle at all only you are trying to tell everyone that it is way better than Honda's accomplishments and is more (or at least as much) reliable and safe blah blah when data is starting to surface that this is not really the case. The forum says Escape vs. CRV so we have to cover what we believe is the truth. I hear things like Honda's racing heritage does not determine much in their road cars and that being the biggest engine manufacturer in the world means little etc......how can you call yourselves car enthusiasts or scape you being an engineer still have not given me the answer to as how the physical properties of the small Honda 4 can either beat or match the Escapes 6 with 40hp more!!!!??? I am waiting for that answer. No matter what type of engineer you are, you should have a theory.