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Anyone who says they loaded thier CRV down with 4 adults and at least 300lbs of gear and tried to traverse a steep grade, and says it did fine is plainly lying. I did this going up HWY 26 up and over MT Hood and the CRV hunted and groaned and barely kept 50MPH while being passed left and right. The 4cyl 2.4 does not have the HP/Torque the Escape has to maintain safe speeds up hills. CRV owners get over! Here come the EScape.
HOndaman doesn't seem to understand how torque and HP work together because Honda can't make an engine that can produce a decent HP/torque curve! Look at the great new Pilot, it can't tow!!
I also love Hondaman and him wanting to trade is 01 in. "The dealer wanting old CRV's" LOL! this is one of the oldest tricks in the book! If your dealer wants old CRV's have him call Thomason Ford in Gladstone, Oregon he as about 25 or more! Also notice hondaman didn't tell us the selling price for the 02 CRV.
CRV's in my region are actually MORE than comparably equipped Escapes.
Tell you what, try another test. Load the CRV down with gear and 4 adults. Load an Escape the same way. Then do your 0-60 test.
CRV owners just plainly don't understand the difference between HP/Torque/gearing/weight and the way they work together..
All this time, poor scape has been lauding the Escape's acceleration for the V-6. And now you're saying the acceleration test is basically unfair, and invalid, as one car is geared one way and the other car is geared the other way, regardless of the advantage in engine size and power?
I bet if the Escape smoked the CR-V in the acceleration test you wouldn't sing the same tune.
I would also like to say that I am not posting a price for the new CRV that was offered to me because it is in Canadian dollars which are much more than yours and second of all it is not important as I have nothing to justify to you. The reason why the Honda dealer wants my CRV is because he has some clients that are looking for a recent model but not at a new car price and they happen to sell them and I don't really care as it would not be my concern anymore in the first place. I really don't want one of your Escapes anyways as I do not think any domestic is worth the money.....but that is only my opinion!
I understand quite well the process of a 5 speed as I have owned them all of my life until recently and I had a Civic Si that I would wind the crap out of easily so don't try to tell me what I know or don't.
You know, you come on here and expect people to have the same opinions as yourself and when we don't you try to make us feel as though we are the ones that are wrong! I am not sure what you are trying to prove but it can be rather annoying at times. Please learn to be objective in this conversation as we are discussing technical points of view and when you start to judge my personality and beliefs, you annoy me! You are the one that says you are an engineer but I have not ever heard a scientific or logical explanation from you yet! What gives there? You are going to have to learn that these vehicles are very simular and at the same time, very different and you always want to point out when your machine is better at something well SO DO WE! Take it or leave it!
Sorry hosts.....but this time I backed up my points without going to name calling or judgement! HOWEVER....the thought did cross my mind!
And I didn't see any test in C&D where the CRV beat the Escape! The last comparo of small SUV's C&D had, the Escape came in first, Honda 5th (2000).
AND the Escape STILL outsells the CRV! Why? I can think of two reasons.
Now that the facts have been reintroduced to the discussion.....
tidester
Host
SUVs; Aftermarket & Accessories
I feel better now. I have also decided to buy the new 2002 CRV as I have just received a better deal so I will update soon on that.
What is it with this whotheman character?????? get it right? I did......the CRV beat the Escape 0-60 with 40hp less manual or not!
You have to re-register in order to do that. Be aware that you cannot simultaneoulsy have two user names according to the TOU. I'm not sure how to remove a name but I'll check into it.
tidester
Host
SUVs; Aftermarket & Accessories
I went over this before. The CR-V is closer to a car than a truck, while the Escape is closer to being a car. Most poeple use their SUVs as cars, which is why car companies started basing them on car platforms. But Ford's strength has always been trucks, so they stuck with making the Escape as trucklike as possible. So even though they're BOTH "Compact SUVs" you want to take a careful look at which market each one is targeting. I said this before...the CR-V is targeting soccer-moms everywhere, while the Escape is more intended for guys who might be interested in an Explorer, but don't want to shell out as much money. Ya dig? You DO know the difference between a CAR and a TRUCK, right? You also know Honda knows NOTHING about making TRUCKS, right? So they stuck with making the CR-V similar to a car, which was a very smart move on their part, if you ask me. That's where their experience seems to lie (though I personally don't like any of their cars either..they seem boring and anonymous). Ford's strength is trucks...I'd never touch a Focus or a Taurus (Though the Thunderbird is pretty sweet looking)
Remember what I said a ways back about these two vehicles filling different niches? THe problem with that is the fact that a salesman will be HAPPY to say "Oh, a CR-V will do the job for ya, you don't need that Escape!" or vice versa....even if it really DOESN'T do the job. Scape, Hondaman, and Varmint should truly apply for jobs as car salesmen...they have the mantras down pat.
"I bet if the Escape smoked the CR-V in the acceleration test you wouldn't sing the same tune."
Actually, I would. But here's a nice question...who cares about 0-60 times in an SUV? You gonna drag-race it maybe? I'll go buy a GTI and smoke all of you for less...or a Focus SVT or Civic Si, as a matter of fact.
2. The CR-V has an exceptionally flat torque curve. It produces 90% of peak torque from 2,250 to 5,500 rpms. We've been over this hundreds of times, but I'll provide a pic of the CR-V's curve (again) if you find one for the Escape.
3. The CR-V is outselling the Escape (again). in June, year to date sales had the CR-V ahead of the Escape by about 5,000 units. July figures for Ford have not been released, but the CR-V sold more than 14,000 units. In Canada, the CR-V challenges the Explorer for top selling 4X4.
http://media.ford.com/article_display.cfm?article_id=12580&make_id=trust
hondaman,
"You forgot to mention that the CRV worldwide is outselling almost all."
All what? Where are the numbers? I'll bet a Ford is topping the list.
varmint,
"But the emissions and mpg points still stand."
No argument there. The CR-V wins those two outright.
It'll be interesting to see what the Escape hybrid can do in those areas. Word is, 40 mpg on the highway with power comparable to the V6.
4. The C&D 5 Best ranking is based on a direct, side by side, head to head comparison. They not publish entries for every single vehicle as that would fill the entire magazine. Baggs, since Escape2 and Whotheman are obviously not going to take the word of a "Honda person", would you explain this to them. I seem to recall you making a remark about the Escape being mentioned and seeing a dirt covered test mule in one of the videos.
Hondaman - I'm not sure what other markets you are talking about. I know that the CR-V is top-dog in Australia and New Zealand, but I don't think the Escape is exported to either of them. It may also be the best seller in the Philipines, but I don't know for certain.
So you're saying both vehicles are cars...which is exactly what I'm saying.
And by the way, soccer moms buy the Escape just as much as they buy the CR-V. Those macho guys who need to tow but can't actually afford the Explorer? Must be very few of 'em, as the Explorer outsells both the CR-V and Escape by a ratio of more than 2:1.
I believe that the Escape is more truckish than the CR-V. But to actually call it a truck, you're really stretching it.
Besides the Mustang and F150, the Escape is Fords biggest success story so far. To say it will go far......I am sure it will but to surpass Honda quality.......I seriously doubt that. Still no recall for the stalling issues that people write about on the Escapes problem board and that probably all comes down to a money issue since there has been no serious safety threats yet.
Honda has recently had the ignition switch problem but I know of no one who had this problem. I am not ignorant but seriously, has anyone read this on the Honda problems board? I could not find it.
I still notice that there are rarely new threads added to the CRV problems forum compared to the Escapes. I questioned this before to only receive a message that not all people state their problems here but I fail to understand as the numbers keep rising for the Escape board!
http://carpoint.msn.com/advice/windowshop.aspx?contentid=4020223&Pos=Edit2&src=Home
This also grabbed my attention.
Let me put it to you this way: Last year, the Escape managed to beat a design in its fifth and final model year. This year, the CR-V is beating a still fresh one year-old design.
You may be asking why the CR-V sold so many units this past month. I suspect it is because the USA has just started receiving CR-Vs from the UK plant. Now that supply can meet demand, prices may begin to fall, waiting lists will be shorter, and customers will have a better chance of getting exactly what they want (color, trim, tranny, etc...). All of those factors will allow Honda to sell even more units.
Ford's response will most likely be hefty rebates on the Escape (larger than the $500 that is offered now). It takes money out of their pockets, but at least they can keep the factories running without laying off workers.
The links that showed the scoring of the 5 Best Trucks on C&D seem to be gone. But if you watch the little movies that are still in the article you will see that a yellow Escape sport was included in their shootout.
Also, as we have discussed before, it should be noted that their decision was based on the fact that the CR-V's performance numbers were as good as the V6 models, and, "The clincher: With a base price of $21,960, our top-of-the-line EX tester ranked cheaper than all but one competitor.", they think it is a great value.
But yes, several models compete against each other, in an exclusive test, for the 5 Best crown.
It's been on sale for about two full years now. Fresh, but not as fresh as the VUE, Liberty, CR-V, Freelander, and Forester (which I still don't think belongs in this category). Did I miss any? I don't even think the current RAV4 has been on sale as long.
My point is, Escapes are everywhere on the road for what I can see. It is quickly becoming the grandaddy of the group which can't good for sales. Most people aren't as enthusiastic about all this stuff we write about so they just buy what they like the most. Newer means better to a lot of them. If you don't believe me go ask twenty random people if they use Edmunds for vehicle research. I bet 90+% of them look at you like you have three heads.
hondaman,
When you are comparing worldwide sales between two vehicles, make sure they are marketed in the same locations.
Sorry, that was a typo....I put that in right before going to bed, so I was pretty tired (I work nights) The Escape is closer to being a TRUCK. Admittedly a truck based on a unibody chassis with front-wheel drive, but it's characterisitics are closer to being a trucks than a car's.
"And by the way, soccer moms buy the Escape just as much as they buy the CR-V. Those macho guys who need to tow but can't actually afford the Explorer? Must be very few of 'em, as the Explorer outsells both the CR-V and Escape by a ratio of more than 2:1."
Maybe so, but the Escape is a smaller, lower MPG option, though it can do a lot of things the Explorer can do.
"I believe that the Escape is more truckish than the CR-V. But to actually call it a truck, you're really stretching it."
If you think that's stretching it, try calling the CR-V an SUV...it's a station wagon with high ground clearance.
And so is the Escape. Which means that you're double stretching it- by calling it an SUV and a truck.
"The Escape is closer to being a TRUCK. Admittedly a truck based on a unibody chassis with front-wheel drive, but it's characterisitics are closer to being a trucks than a car's."
Yeah, it's close to being a truck; it's just not a truck. And I believe I already stated that.
The Escape can tow. The Escape has a greater load capacity. The Escape has a stronger chassis. The Escape has tougher suspension. Those are what give the Escape an advantage over the CR-V in "trucky" stuff, which makes the Escape closer to being a truck than a CR-V.
But Ford faces financial turmoil along with product development, engineering and vehicle-introduction difficulties. For example, production of the Lincoln Aviator, scheduled to begin in September, may be delayed because of unspecified engineering problems, the company said. The Ford Ranger's redesign, which had been pushed back to the 2006 model year, could be delayed until at least the 2008 model year".
This was in Autoweek today. So much for engineering skills. Ford is in some trouble and quality and reliability will suffer for that along with customer service!
The CRV reaches its MAXIMUM torque of 160ft/lbs.. is what you need to tell people varmit. While the CRV has reached its MAX the Escape has another 40ft/lbs to give. This is what you people don't seem to understand. While the CRV reaches its MAXIMUMS the Escape has MORE to give..
HOndaman, as much as you want the bad and evil Ford to go out of business.. they won't. You forget about the 90's and the record profits Ford made along with.. they made a profit this last quarter.. HOnda can only dream of having the rescources of $7 BILLION to spend.
Another advantage that the Escape has over the CRV is the locking differential, more payload, more max payload, more GVWR.
Hondaman, you are a kick, falling for the oldest one in the book. "We need your trade, we have people wanting your vehicle" I thought you were smarter than that.. Like I said, have your guy call Thomason HOnda in Gladstone Oregon, he has better than 25 01 and older CRV's.. And feeling the need to trade just because of this chat room.. LOL!!
Hopefully now we all know that opinions are usually neither right or wrong, so that really shouldn't be a discussion point..
What I think most of us try to do is share facts, data, our experiences, interpretations of data, and our opinions, as input to the many 'lurkers' who read but don't participate to these forums.
So, lets take one of your recent posts 1526:
You show the quote where Ford indicates that some internal engineering difficulties will result delays to production for some models.
However, then you state
"Ford is in some trouble and quality and reliability will suffer for that along with customer service" (you state this as a fact, when it's just your opinion).
There is absolutely nothing from the Ford post that would indicate that quality, reliability and customer service will suffer.. I see just the opposite. Ford products will have even higher quality, reliability and better service than previously because they are making extra efforts.
over here in the phil the crv 2002 is such a hotseller it has a 3-4 month wait list. we have the escape coming here, but all indent orders have not been filled. (one of the so little ford dealers outside our village told us so, they pretty honest over here)
Go back to #1519....there are some places that have done quality surveys and never has there been a Ford on the last 2 I have seen. Public opinion polls put the RAV4, CRV in front almost all the time......you never see the Escape there. I am not one to always believe that you should listen to what others say and I am happy for you that you did not and went with your gut feeling about your purchase. Most of us "Honda guys" have owned MANY Honda's from the past and that is a contributing factor to our return. Most of those that buy the Ford Escape have never owned a Ford before but because of the great success of the Escape/Tribute and that they finally got it right and also due to great financing rates, this SUV appealed to them. That does not make it a "God" in comparison to others! Yes it has great power and is more truck like and some other attributes BUT my point (from experience) is that it will not outlast the Honda product in reliability and satisfaction. I may have pushed the safety issue recently a little far and I think it is definately a solid machine.
Lastly scape,I have bought many vehicles in my life...maybe more than you and have never had a problem negotiating. I don't want anything to do with your Ford dealer as I do not live anywhere near this area and really don't care. I had my accountant look into this proposal and he thinks it is a good deal no doubt. I managed to get him down to 1100$ to pay for the new vehicle and this is a good time to buy as it is the end of the 2002 year. I don't really care what he wants to do with it even though I believe it has already been sold. I do not feel the need to trade it in because of what you say that is for sure! If you think that than you are not as smart as I thought you were! I like the new CRV and this chance will not come by again because I have not lost more than 1100$ in almost 9 months of ownership and 30000km's +!! Not bad in my book. Go check what you would get for yours and let me know! Most cars lose 30% in the first 6 months!
You know scape.......you are a cool character but sometimes......gggggrrrrrrrrrrrr!
They are losing money and have been for a while. Honda is making record profits for the size they are even in hard economic times!
Yes this is a clear issue towards satisfaction and reliability as mass production to sell vehicles in a hurry to make money can have its downfalls.
p.s. this is not trying to be right......we are discussing issues compared to Ford and Honda/CRV to Escape so please don't take it too personally!
But it's still not a truck, which is what I'm saying all along. I already stated it's more truck-like than the CR-V; it's just not a truck.
Seems everyone and their brother has a study out now! I guess as long as you guys keep reading them, they'll keep printing them.
That "quality survey" link from post 1519 is not a quality survey and if you still want to call it that, it's only for the first 90 days of ownership as shown in the third paragraph. Pay particular attention to the first sentence in the each of the next two paragraphs.
"Strategic Vision differentiates its results—culled from surveys of nearly 47,000 vehicle buyers—from other quality studies because owners are asked about more than vehicle features and problems that cropped up. Strategic Vision said TQI incorporates the experience of buying the vehicle and driving it, too."
Pay particular attention to the first sentence in the each of the next two paragraphs.
"TQI is designed to measure the satisfaction of owners with the entire experience of buying, owning and driving a new vehicle. "It's a very complex calculation," says Edwards, "to accurately measure what's really going on for new vehicle buyers." "
It's short term like J.D. Power:
"Owners who participated in the survey bought their new vehicles in October and November 2001 and were surveyed after they had their new model for at least 90 days."
Sounds more like a survey that reports how happy people are with their dealer and their choice of vehicle. Ford, GM, and DC dealers (sales persons) are generally pretty poor so I can see why they aren't exactly lighting that list on fire. If they'd just read the vehicle brochure's so they know what they are talking about, people may have a different opinion of them.
I have a good story about the Honda salesman who tried to sell us the 2002 CR-V too. He was a real gem. You would have thought you were standing in the center of Pleasantville if the big "H" wasn't glowing above your head. Apparently they are trained to think all Honda's are perfect too.
I realize that you're trying to be cynical, but it's not just the Honda dealers who do that. I think it's only gratuitous to expect that from any person trying to sell you a car.
You are right about the Honda salesmen they do think they know it all.
C&D pulled this same crap with the Supra, regularly beating RX-7's and 300ZX's in comparisons, then being omitted from the "10 Best" list at the last-minute for some cornball reason. THAT'S where credibility comes into question. That's why I believe in MT much more. There is less slight of hand with MT.
Each magazine has its own set criteria for evaluation. If each one had the same, that would not be very interesting now would it? Mt had the Escape ahead of the CRV and C and D had three Hondas in first place.....SO? Each reader should decide their own winner!
True, it has been longer than one year. But the CR-V has also been on sale for 9 months. I don't recall exactly which month the Escape was introduced, but the difference is probably more like 1 year and 4 months.
As for which designs are "fresher", I don't think it much matters. In 1997, the CR-V topped all of the direct competition. In 1998, Subaru introduced a new fresher model. The CR-V still prevailed. In 1999, Suzuki introduced the all-new Vitara with the optional 6 cyl. Then came the Xterra. The CR-V was still the top seller. Even when the RAV4 was redesigned, the CR-V still sold more units.
The Escape and Liberty are the only two designs to surpass the CR-V in sales. And they both faltered as soon as soon the CR-V was redesigned.
Scape2 - The 90's were not so grand as you think. Or, at least, the party was following by an equally impressive crash. With the Firestone recalls, lack-luster products, fights with public opinion, and other Mr. Nassar disasters, Ford went from having well over 20 billion in reserves to having only 5 billion. That was the mess that lil Bill walked into and is working to repair.
Whotheman - I would recommend that you read back through the entire thread. Half of the issues you are presenting have been beaten to death and a good deal of your information is incorrect.
True, but when you find a fault with the vehicle in question most sales persons don't try to sugar coat it or change the subject like a Honda sales person would. I've only been to two of the three or four around me, but they were both exactly the same when it came to attitude.
"Ford then seems to have a problem right off the start then! If Ford is not on that list than what exactly are you trying to say then?"
We all know Ford has had initial quality problems recently. Remember the Escape's recalls? That is only one part of their equation though. It along with the higher possibility of dealing with an incompetent sales person at a Ford dealership will keep anyone off that list.
I don't believe that that survey really tells us anything. If you are really looking for a pleasant purchase experience, go buy a Saturn or Lexus for crying out loud. Who cares about what people think of their new vehicle from when they started shopping to 90 days later? Show me some real service dept. stats and not what people think. We tell each other what we think here too. All that does is waste some perfectly good space in a database.
How do you deal with those Honda sales people anyway? Because he saw us drive in in a Civic, I think ours had the paperwork ready before we even shut the engine off! He was thoroughly annoyed with me when I started pointing out my dislikes after the test drive. Although, a lot of mommies and daddies were in line behind us so I don't think he had a hard time getting rid of it that day. We headed down the road, drove the Tribute in some snow and ice, and crossed Honda off the list.
The Ford people here are terrible compared to others so I think it all comes to where you go and how well trained they are. GM, Hyundai and Chrysler are really good with customer service here but not everywhere.
No, not like a Honda sales person, more like any sales person. What incentives do you think the sales person would receive if he acknowledges the faults you point out in the car he's trying to sell you? Would he have to give you a bigger discount? Would he still be able to keep your business? What if other customers overheard him? Would he have to do the same for them? What does that say about the car he's trying to sell? If he still retains your business, he's essentially selling you a car in which he admits and agrees that there are faults with it. There is 0 incentive for him to do so.
Once again Ford not on list.
We drove up in a Civic and test drove a 2002 CR-V.
Sorry if you were confused. I was implying that Ford's sales people suck when it comes to knowing about the vehicle and everything else that goes along with it. I always have to correct them. For example, (and this is only one of many) the moron that sat next to me when I first test drove the Escape tried to tell me that it had the same V6 as the Explorer. That led to correction number one.
diploid,
"There is 0 incentive for him to do so."
From what I've seen at Ford and GM lots, they don't sugar coat or change the subject when a dislike comes up about a particular vehicle. They just turn to their right and wave their arm at another model. If they can get you to buy the more expensive model instead, why make the cheaper one look better?
It goes something like this:
(salesman is waving his arm like a game show host when curtain number three opens) "Maybe I can interest you in an Explorer. It has the (insert Escape's missing option here) that you are looking for plus many other wonderful features that you won't find in the Escape. All for only a few dollars more a month!"
Honda now has the Pilot to do this with, but since they probably won't even produce half as many of them as Ford will sell Explorers I doubt that you will see many sales people waving their arms in it's direction. Instead they'll just continue to make the CR-V look like it is the perfect vehicle for every single human being on earth. It obviously works. I just don't like it.
No wonder my wife got suckered into paying sticker for her Civic.
Yes but Honda is #2 and Acura is #3. Looks like they're slipping. What's up with that? I need our Civic to be worth as much as possible when it's time to trade it in. They can do better than that!
"Most of those that buy the Ford Escape have never owned a Ford before"
Do you have statistics to back up what you are saying? You mention that you've owned many problem free Honda's and that gives you a good feeling that your CRV will also be problem free.
I've personally owned many problem free and reliable Ford vehicles, and my family has owned even more..
You then quote:
"I am happy for you that you did not (buy a CRV) and went with your gut feeling about your purchase (of an Escape)"
See, this is an example of you standing on a platform and implying that your purchase is based on facts and reasons, and someone who purchases an Escape is just doing so becauase it 'felt good'.
Sorry, but the CRV and Escape are both very good reliable vehicles. Someone who chooses a CRV is using just as much 'gut feel' as someone who chooses the Escape..