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This site does have some credibility or it would not exist. That is like saying that Motor Trend or Car and Driver reviews are un-true because it was only the opinion of a few editors! Yes...both are good choices, I will agree. I had a look (close) at the new midnight black (I think it's called) model without the ugly cladding and to be honest, it was rather appealing! You see, I can be objective and at the same time reasonable haha!
I did not say the article was for the Escape now did I? I was using the company to prove a point.
"Scape,
How can you sit here and defend you 200HP vs 160 HP when you NEVER EVER respond to my points.
I am currently getting my Masters in engineering and as I understand, you are also an engineer. So, you should realize that in addition to HP and torque their are other factors affecting acceleration.
To name a few...
1. Tire Size
2. Gear Ratios
3. Aerodynamics
Check out my curves and the effect tire size has on HP.
http://www.geocities.com/davekuhn77/CRV.html
NOW, lets add gear ratios and aerodynamics! You or someone else give me the numbers and then we can finally have SOMETHING to look at rather then your constant repeating rhetoric...
Remember I have had the priviledge to drive the 4 cyl and the V6 regularly and I tell you there is not that much difference. The only advantage the Escape had over the CRV (both automatics) was from mid 20's to mid to high 30's. From 40 to 60 the CRV clearly had more power.
Scape, RESPOND TO MY POINTS 1,2,3!!!! I dare you.
Dave the 2002 CRV weighs 42lbs more, has 14HP more and 29ft/lbs of torque than the 2001 CRV. You are telling me this small HP/torque gain has given the 2001 CRV this huge advantage over a 200HP/200ft/lbs of torque vehicle?
The Escape has more towing power, more standard payload, more max payload and more GVWR. Gee, I wonder why? Do you think the CRV cannot handle it?? Yes, all you CRV owners should have bought station wagons.. The Escape is just more of an SUV..
I am still trying to find the HP/Torque curve of the Escape.
The Escape reaches it MAX HP of 201 at 5,900 RPMs and its MAX torque of 200ft/lbs at 4700rpms. The CRV reaches its MAX HP of 160 at 6000RPMS@!! and its MAX torque of 162ft/lbs at 3,600rpms.. This is why I keep saying.. you have to rev the he.. out of the CRV in order to achieve these 0-60 numbers some speak so highly of. Look at the way your torque drops at 3,600 rpms??? please don't try to convince me the cRV can carry heavy loads just as well as the Escape..
varmit Jan 16, 2002 2:19pm
1st gear 3.533
2nd gear 1.880
3rd gear 1.212
4th gear 0.921
5th gear 0.738
Reverse 3.583
Final Drive Ratio 4.765
1st gear 2.684
2nd gear 1.535
3rd gear 0.974
4th gear 0.638
Reverse 2.000
Final Drive Ratio 4.438
...And this is the torque and hp curves mapped over the same scale.
http://decagon.interserver.net/~hondasuv/user/Varmint/HP and Torque.gif
Yes, 'twas I!
You will recall that I clearly stated my assumptions and presented the result strictly FWIW.
tidester
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Steve
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Escape 0.39
(wind tunnel results)
tidester
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Now I am real close to all the info I want!!!
First lets deal with HP, which is essentially the acceleration factor of a vehicle assuming there is not a more then significant payload. Once we resolve this we will move on to torque, payload and towing. I am sure the Escape will clearly win in this category, although not as much as you would think!
Varmint,
Thanks for the gearing info!
Anyone got the ratios for the Escape???? Once I get those numbers I can crank out the HP curve comparison!!!!
As you can see in this Edmunds quote the consumers picked the CRV and it took the combined total of the Escape/Tribute to get second place.
The editors of Edmunds picked the Escape over the CR-V for their "Most Wanted". They actually tested both of them. Some percentage (I'm guessing a large one) of the people who voted in the "Consumer's Most Wanted" probably never even sat in either one of them.
steve and tidester,
How did they choose who could vote in the Edmunds' consumer's most wanted? Their explanation of how they obtained the votes is pretty weak.
By the way, I've been reading this site (almost daily) for the past 5-6 years and I didn't get to vote. I feel so used.
One quick note about their July review. They are driving a 2001 model and the ignition slot they were complaining of was redesigned for the 2002+ models along with a few other minor nuisances.
Baggs - The survey was on the home page for a few months.
You are right about how the Coefficient of Drag is used but who says you can't get the entire frontal area of both vehicles? Fluid mechanics methods would work perfect. When you stand directly in front of the vehicle what you see is the frontal area, you project the front of the car onto a 2 dimensional sheet and take the area. This will be the total width of the vehicle times the total height of the vehicle minus the ground clearence for the vehicle. VOILA!!! We can compare!
How was the CRV rally in the Whites??? Good turnout? I wish I could have made it!
This is significanlty lower then the drive ratio for the CRV at 4.765
Just from these numbers I can tell you that the CRV ratio is better for acceleration numbers. It also looks like the Escape is geared for towing, which makes sense.
Thanks varmint. I completely missed it somehow.
Are you sure gatorgreg didn't drum up some extra votes for the CR-V on his own CR-V forum or somewhere else? I see that he is now asking all the members to vote for the CR-V as the best SUV of the 20th century over on the Truck Trend boards.
So is it safe to say we can start calling the Escape "Al Gore" instead? The CRV will now be regarded to as the "Right Wing Conspiracy".
Maybe the voting options were just to confusing for the Ford owners, they didn't really mean to vote for the CRV. Up here in Wisconsin, I saw Ford dealers handing out cigarettes to everyone they shuttled in to vote for the Escape while I used multiple ID's to vote multiple times on campus for the CRV.
I guess we can stop this thread now, because its just a matter of time before the Supreme Court steps in and declares the CRV the winner while everyone mumbles about how its not a legitimate mini-SUV.
OK, OK...I couldn't help myself. While GG runs a respectable forum, his membership numbers (300) aren't really high enough yet to stuff the ballot box IMHO.
Is this why I keep getting phone calls in the middle of the night whispering "Rosebud"?
Baggs32, your certificate is in the mail (it may not be in the mail to you, but it's in the mail, lol).
Steve
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I'll go pick out a nice fram then.
It was just a joke.
Although 300 members could have easily made the difference in a battle won by 25 votes.
I think we have to watch that gatorgreg fellow from now on though. I think a cult is forming over at his place!
Baggs - By the same token, one more reviewer on the Edmunds panel might have swapped their "most wanted" rankings. That kind of rational can be directed most anywhere. If it invalidates one survey, then it invalidates them all. And we are left without any expert witnesses for the case.
In this class, the Escape will do better offroad than the CRV.. locking center diff is the advantage along with more ground clearance and more agressive tires/size along with more power.. Granted, most people don't offroad in these vehicles. And yes, most people use these as commuters. The best "offroad ability" vehicle in this class is either the Liberty or the Xterra. I do however use my Escape to tow, and get me to my favorite fishing/hiking/biking spots..
Ran into a guy, wife and family at Baja Fresh tonight with a Silver 02 Escape. He parked right next to me as we were leaving. He asked what year mine was, how many miles, and if I had any issues.. He had bought his about 6 months ago. I galdly told him over 15K, not one problem.. He hadn't had any either. So, that is now 10 people I have run into with various years of Tribs/Escapes that have not had any stalling/or issues that would force them to either trade or sell. According to some in this room, these Escapes/Tribs are supposed to be problematic, fall apart and totally unreliable from day 1...
Liberty or Xterra are better, but I'll follow you ANYWHERE you go in that Escape off road. Heck, I'll even wait around to pull you out! =P
HP and Torque aren't gonna help you off road once those tires start spinning. Ive had my V offroad only once, but I would qualify it as intermediate difficulty. (Water up to the floor boards, off camber roads, Sand dunes (as much as you can have a dune in WI...lol) MUD, Rocks.
Just my .02.
Steve
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tidester
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I think I'll keep that one out of sight from my wife. She already thinks I'm crazy enough for participating in these and other forums.
freeber,
That was a joke too, right? Make sure you take some good pictures of your CR-V's rear end tearing off or the engine exploding while trying to pull the Escape out of anything.
"there is NO WAY the CRV could off-road as it was not anywhere near developed for that!"
but I remembered you're fairly sensitive so I figured I'd just say "YOU"RE WRONG". Read your owners manual.
What, do you think I made up that info about off roading? I didn't say I was mud bogging of traversing near perpendicular hills. I _DID_ drive through a small stream (water over the axles), I _DID_ navigate some near 45- 50% inclines, I _DID_ go over small logs (under 8") and I _DID_ push through moderate mud holes. (mud was not deeper than 8 to 10")
And I'm NOT the only one doing it.
Baggs,
I wasn't joking. But then again, anybody who has ever used a winch or pulled somebody out knows you don't just pull them dead. 95% of stuck vehicles just need a minor amount of push or pull to get them moving on their own, so you hook on, tighten the slack, and then HELP them drive themselves out. Just as if you were on a 4 wheeler and got stuck, you don't just let the winch pull you out, you drive in ADDITION to the winch so it goes easier.
Furthernore, I wouldn't pull somebody out from a hitch on a CRV. Anybody who does SERIOUS off roading (me not included) has custom tow and anchor points added to the vehicle.
While I WAS being a bit tounge-in-cheek, I certainly wouldn't leave a poor FORD owner stranded in the woods without at least TRYING to help.=P (I'm kidding, take a breath)
"Liberty or Xterra are better, but I'll follow you ANYWHERE you go in that Escape off road. Heck, I'll even wait around to pull you out!"
My owners manual does not say anything about that! The CRV was NOT developed for off-roading......only light stuff like snow, shallow water, mud....whatever! I would like to see you pull an Escape! Please don't give ammunition to scape on this as we hear enough now! If I have mis-understood what you were trying to say than I am sorry but it sounded kind of inviting to me.
Mr. Sensitive
I also do not think the CRV will be pullnig out any Escapes, BUT I do think the CRV is very campable of offroading especially if you have decent offroading tires on the CRV.
I was driving through a wet unused cornfield and it was extremely muddy. My frame was hung up on the mud! Once I got the CRV rocking back and forth a couple times, using one foot out the door and the other on the pedal I popped out of the mud and continued to have some good times mudding!
True, but if it were deep mud or sand (which is near the edge of what these two can handle off-road wise) you would have to pull more weight for a longer period of time while the towee fights for traction.
I know you'd try to help, but like hondaman said, the CR-V just isn't built for that sort of thing even though, like you said, it can do some. Remember, even a minivan can do some light off-roading.
http://www.rpm4x4.com/picsAppleValleySummer.htm
And I stand by that I'll follow an Escape into ANY woods. Off roading is 70% driving ability and 30% vehicle ability.
All I was saying is the Escape is no better an off-roader than the CRV. If I put my CRV into 36" of mud that Escape ain't pulling me out either.
Granted, these vehicles are not for harsh offroading. BUT.. the Escape has an advantage.. center locking differential.. do you know what this is?? or what it even means?? Along with more ground clearance and more TORQUE/HP AND a more aggressive tire/size.. This does give the Escape an advantage over the CRV in offroading ability.. Do I have to repeat myself? or go into mass detail about what a locking center differential is and its benefits.. The CRV does not have a center locking diff.
Hondaman.. in the same sense, all Escapes/Tribs are full of problems, unreliable and bad quality.
Yet, so far I have run into 10 people that have these vehicles and they have been fine. Mine has been fine after 15,000 trouble free miles.. yet its ok for you to beat it into peoples heads that the Escape/Trib are unreliable? Do a search, find the link to the over 4,300 person Escape internet site. A poll was done and less than 1 percent of people have had these huge, catastrophic problems you so love to spread here at Edmunds.
Plus, the insurance costs for a CRV are higher. Checked with another insurance company (Allstate) and they were 13 dollars more a month.
PLEASE don't repeat yourself anymore scape! It is just that all those 10 people and 4300 others you know about GEEEEEEZ! I mean the CRV must have 100000 katrillion by now!
What about that article in Automobile magazine scape........still waiting for a personal comment! Have you ever read an article where the CRV gave this many problems in a long term test? If yes, I want to have that linked please!
Anyways, in all the reports that rate these small SUV's for offroading, NEVER has the Escape been giving an advantage in fact they often say they are equivacle to each other. Not all Escapes have more ground clearance, actually less then a majority, the only ones that have more ground clearance are the ones with 235 tires!
"center locking differential.. do you know what this is?? or what it even means??"
Yes, and I question if you do if you think it is a HUGE advantage over the CRV. I will say its a nice advantage that will keep all intended wheels engaged rather than waiting for one to slip, however my experience is that the RT4WD on the CRV responds SO quickly that its ALMOST as good.
**EDITED** And for those who don't know, here's a brief description: Center-Locking Differential
On all-wheel drive vehicles, a third differential in addition to those for the front and rear axles. This third differential allows the front and rear wheels to turn at different speeds as needed for cornering on dry pavement. On slippery surfaces, it locks all four wheels together, either automatically or manually depending on the system, for greater traction.
I question the part that says 'locks all four wheels together' because unless you have a locking differential in both the front and rear axles, you're only spinning one wheel per axle.
**END EDIT**
"Along with more ground clearance and more TORQUE/HP AND a more aggressive tire/size"
Here's some news for you, I find MANY people up the size on their CRV and forgo the mileage sacrifice. So now, with the same size tires on the CRV as you have on your Escape, the V is taller again. Torque and HP don't do squat when you're spinning.
Hondaman, Thats EXACTLY the issue here.
On another note in the American production plants acording to the Automotive Engineering journal...
Honda: 19.78 HPV
Ford: 26.87 HPV
HPV=hours it takes to make one vehicle
So Honda has a faster production capacity and still makes a far more reliable vehicle, WOW!
Nissan was the most efficient with Honda in second place. Ford was near the bottom of the pack.
Were those averages calculated across the entire vehicle lines? Because it takes a lot longer to make Ford's largest vehicle (whatever enormous truck that may be) than it does for Honda to make its largest vehicle (which I think is now the Pilot). When you make larger vehicles that take longer to assemble, your average increases too.
"If I put my CRV into 36" of mud that Escape ain't pulling me out either."
The Escape can tow 3500 lbs. so it should be able to pull the CR-V out as long as it (Escape) is on solid ground. That's what I was trying to get at. The CR-V isn't pulling any vehicle out of any mud pit without a good bit of help.
That is a good point about large vehicles, Honda does have the Pilot and the Oddysey though. Toyota has some large vehicles and their HPV was something around 20.##.
Hondaman,
LOL, sounds good to me!