CR-V vs Escape

freeber

...."over 45 posts.. and the same old story.."

This thread has pretty much degraded (and I've helped) into a constant rehash of the exact same arguements over and over. Very few people are offering any hard facts and mostly people choose to ignore the facts when presented anyhow.

To borrow a phrase from one of the moderators it may be time to "pull the plug".

Then again, it is quite the soap opera to follow......

np1908

Just go thru the Accord problems 2 board. Honda is issuing recall letters to 2000 Accord Models. Again, some dealers are still NOT admitting it. '02 Camry did not have as good a safety rating in the recent crash test.. Honda/Toyota built it reliability on Camcords and these don't portend as a good signal - atleast to me..

I feel, the difference between domestics and imports are getting narrower and narrower. Hondaman02 always wanted facts and he is right. Here are some facts:
GM has started beating Honda/Toyota in Initial Quality ratings (Saturn L and Buicks have beaten Camcords Initial Quality ratings per JDPower for 2001) and Saturn just displaced Lexus from #1 for dealer after-sales service per JDPower ratings and the first non-luxury brand to achieve this after 16 years! (And it was Honda 16 years before and is nowhere to be seen in top 10 now - what a shame!). Saturn has been rated at #1 for Sales satisfaction surveys for 2 years running..
The price points of these competing vehicles vis-a-vis Camcords are either equal and stands in favor of GM! Unfortunately, Reliability cannot be measured now and with Initial Quality getting better - a race well begun, is half won. I feel, reliability is only to follow with these models holding up better in the years to come..

Added to that, MotorTrend rated GMC Envoy as the 2002 SUV of the year. Avalanche as the 2002 Truck of the year. OK, I agree large SUVs and Trucks were always the forte for Domestics.. But the above figures were for mid-size sedans where Honda/Toyota have been ruling roost for nearly 10-15 years now.

Is the gap getting narrower?

diploid

I think that's why some threads get archived...

varmint

I knew it was only a matter of time before Gator and Thai found this thread. Things are going to get even more lively in here! This should be interesting.

Np1908 - In terms of reliability, the Accord and Civic were the halo cars in the 80s. You're a decade behind the times. They've been surpassed by a few other Hondas in more recent times. The most reliable car in the Honda lineup has been the CR-V since 1997. The 2002 model remains to be proven. That is true. And I fully expect that the 2002 CR-V will score lower than the previous generation. It does have its own first year issues. However, I do not see any reason to suspect it will hit 40% below the industry average (a la Escape). To borrow your own words, "a race well begun, is half won."

hondaman02

I agree baggs, intmed does not seem to want to cooperate and wants to be the only "defender" of reliability.....we should call him "SUPERMED"! If I recall, he owns a 4Runner!! What does that have to do with this argument of CRV vs. Escape? Oh well, some people like to be rude I guess and can't have fun unless they are always right. I like it here even though sometimes we do fight a little but I find it fun and I have learned a lot about Ford to be honest! I don't always agree with you for example BUT I like reading what you say because it is well laid out and logical...not fussy on what scape has to say however! I will always respect your choice but not necessarily agree with it...some people can't I guess. I still love the Mustang no matter what I say about reliability...it is a fantastic car for the price. I also saw a Thunderbird this week-end at a stop light and thought that it was one heck of a great looking car and noticed the attention to detail of assembly. If Ford would always do that, I think I would consider having a closer look. It seemed extremely tight!

As for np1908, I agree, the vice is starting to get tighter when it comes to reliability but so is Honda. It has increased the safety factor of its CRV 5 times and the 4 cyl. engine is really good along with a better start in its initial year with recalls or other issues compared to the first CRV in its initial year. BUT as I said before, the Domestics are not very consistant here and are always up and down each year. Being rated "Truck of the Year" does not mean it is the most reliable it just means it was the most inovative. GM has a tendancy to be strong off the block but it always tries to "re-invent" the category and look at all the recalls with the Envoy! I think that GM is the best of the three in reliability and will probably succeed well in the next few years.

The Accord issue is nothing compared to your brand! Once again, every make has its issues but how many do you know with over 200 000km's on the odo? I am one for example with my wifes car and I know someone else with 290 000km's. Don't try to make the Accord for something it is not! That would be a bunch of bull as there is tons of proof on that one.......probably 10 times easier to find than the CRV! Keep trying people!

baggs32

"I also saw a Thunderbird this week-end at a stop light and thought that it was one heck of a great looking car and noticed the attention to detail of assembly. If Ford would always do that, I think I would consider having a closer look. It seemed extremely tight!"

It's only produced in limited quantities which helps the quality I would imagine.

SVT products tend to be very well put together too.

"I think that GM is the best of the three in reliability and will probably succeed well in the next few years."

From what I gather, a lot of that success has to do with their 3.8L push rod V6 and the NorthStar line. They keep using the 3.8 over and over again even though it is out of date by comparison with what other manufacturers are using. We'll see what they come up with next. The I6 in the SUV triplets seems to be a great design, but we need some time to see if it is going to last.

Do we think the gap is closing because the domestics are getting better, or because the foreign's are producing more and starting to slip?

varmint

According to CR and JD Powers, the domestic manufacturers (as a group) are getting better. They are approaching the same level where the Japanese were several years ago. However, the Japanese are still improving, as well. The gap is smaller than it was 20 years ago, but they still have a way to go. IIRC, the projections were about 20-30 years at the current rate (I'll have to double-check that).

Here's an interesting look at the financing deals that the domestics have been using to boost sales.

http://www.marketwatch.com/news/yhoo/story.asp?source=blq/yhoo&siteid=yhoo&dist=yhoo&guid=%7B157B660C%2D01FE%2D4A42%2DBBA2%2DF5AD838F00A6%7D

hondaman02

Baggs.......not fussy over push rods. A mechanic once told me that after 100 000 miles they pump oil. Parts are cheap and they are fairly reliable I suppose but GM will not go far if they keep using tham as Chrysler and Ford seem to be moving ahead here.

Yes the SVT seems quite good but it is technology from other companies and not Ford directly that is used. Does that not make Ford look a little out of date?

scape2

First of all you keep forgetting to mention you have to rev the he.. out of the 2.4 in the CRV to attain the 0-60 numbers posted. Another is gearing, tire size ect..
CRV owners claim over and over again the V6 in the Escape has no advantage. The CRV can haul, tow, pull whatever.. You miss the whole point. The Escape plainly does it better, everything better. You have forgotten the September issue of Motor Trend where the Escape BEATS the CRV!??

scape2

I have a V6?? I have already said, I tow my two water craft with my Escape just fine. Your CRV can only dream of doing this.. I know my Escape has been into more places outdoors than all of you CRV owners combined! You don't understand, I live in Oregon, I fish, bike, hike, and boat. My Escape has proven to be reliable for me. The V6 is wonderful. Dave, you posted the HP curves, did you read them?? The V6 in the Escape is an advantage. As much as you CRV owners want so badly to believe the 2.4 is every bit as powerful.. ITS NOT.

scape2

0-60 numbers.. brought to you buy Dave a CRV owner..
Dave you forget to tell people you must rev the he.. out of the 2.4 in order to achieve these 0-60 numbers.. Plus depending on who you want to believe the Escape has seen 0-60 times as low as 8 also..
Zircon.. quality of materials?? Have you ever parked the Escape and CRV side by side??? I have.. the plastics in the CRV are not any better than the Escape.. including the fit/finish. Your fooling yourself if you think its better, its not. Your just seeing the silver "H" and are just wanting to think its better because of it.
Saftey.. we have gone over this over and over again. Yes, the CRV does have an advantage, but. the advantage is not as huge as varmit wishes so badly to believe. He also continues to fail to mention that some data was lost? remember varmit?
The Escape is a safe vehicle. NHSTA still rates it well..
The Escape will out pass, out merge, out brake, out tow, out haul, out pull the CRV. The Escape is more of an SUV, this is what Ford does best, more of an SUV than the CRV. You should have all gotten a station wagon...

zircon2

As someone above said....you present 'em with facts, and they keep on ranting...

Scape...you are absolutely correct. HP and torque go to Escape, as does looks (IMO). Technology, interior size, safety, reliability and acceleration go to CR-V. I don't give a damn if I have to rev the hell out to it to beat an Escape- it is capable of doing it, and, in fact, the engine thanks me when I put her over 3500rpm - she (almost literally) begs to go higher and quieter, just like her race car siblings. Really, I am not kidding. I am happy that you are such a satisfied Escape owner though - clearly Ford is capable of building fine vehicles and pleasing some (many) of their customers. Many F150 owners would but nothing else. I think the V interior could be better, particularly the ugly saddle seat colour and fabric. BTW, nice snide remard re: station wagons.

My car is a 99 Accord, 5-speed with a weaker form of vtec than the V has. It has about 65km (42000 miles) on it. I drive it hard. I had a heated seat go on one side, a light bulb burn out on the panel for cruise control, and just replaced the back brakes (odd, eh?). Other than that, oil changes and gas and it scoots. I would love to trade for the new accord with the same engine as the V, cus it's a killer. Am too broke to trade it in though. My kind Honda dealer screws me on trades.

daveghh

Scape,
You are quite obtuse!!! How do you rev an automatic!!! Rhetoric my friend, that is all you have???

You are the most interesting engineer I have ever met!

Scape,
As an engineer you should be able to interpret data, and if you look at the intrusion measurements you can see a very, an EXTREME difference!!! Catch a clue my friend. You used to be interesting to argue with, you ONCE HAD great insight and great points!

Now you are fading.

stever

Isn't there a term for this technique - winding it up or something? You step on the brake while goosing the pedal and then let 'er rip. Seems like there's even an "engine brake" device to let you increase the 0-60 times on an automatic - hard on the tranny though.

Steve
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diploid

"Isn't there a term for this tecnique" - yes, I affectionately call it "major repair bills."

stever

rotf, well, winding out a clutch isn't going to help its longevity either .

good one!

Steve
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hondaman02

Scape.........What about that article in Automobile magazine??? You still have not commented on that Mr. Engineer.

You are sour cause our little 4 beat your 6 0-60 in Motor Trend! The only reason they picked it (Escape) as a winner was because they thought is was more "utility" than the CRV...they never said it was because it was better! DUH! If they would of liked the styling more, it would of beat your Superscape just through scoring! You can keep your ugly body cladding anyday!

Quality is really good according to Automobile magazine!!!! Oh that's right, you know 9 people who own them and they represent the whole company for reliability LOL!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

hondaman02

I thought this was funny. Wonder if they will be using their own vehicles!!!!haha

http://www.canadiandriver.com/news/020827-3.htm

baggs32

"The only reason they picked it (Escape) as a winner was because they thought is was more "utility" than the CRV"

The only reason C&D picked the CR-V as one of the five best was because they thought it was a better value. Not because it was a better overall vehicle. If you watch their little videos Frank Marcus even states that the Escape was in the lead at some point in the testing where the vehicles in the background were already very dirty. These videos were there when the article originally came out, but I'm not sure if they are still there.

Personally, I think these magazines are all flipping coins to pick the winner.

hondaman02

I agree baggs but I had to do something to respond to scapes rediculous posts! I think magazines pick elements that they want to see and if they have them, they win. Actually, the winner is chosen by the customer and we all take are chances since anything mechanical can go wrong as it is a machine BUT I will still not stand for those here that question Honda's reputation in racing and reliability by posting stupid comments and I think you know that! I have had too many various problems with past vehicles and way too few with Honda!

stever

They aren't "ridiculous", they just differ from yours. Let's tone down the potshots a notch or two please.

Steve
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whotheman

To increase the acceleration of a car hampered by the ubiquitous automatic tranny.

The CR-V offers less engine, so it MAY offer SLIGHTLY more interior room, due to the less room they need to devote to the engine. They also made it taller and uglier, so there is also a benefit there.

That the Escape beat a cheaper car, with a built in performance advantage should say it all. But defeat is a bitter pill to swallow, I guess.

whotheman

oregonboy

I believe it is common practice for magazine testers to pre-load the torque converter of automatic-equiped cars by holding down the brakes and revving the engine to 3-4,000 RPM before launching.

That gets the engine into the higher portion of the torque band and reduces ETs. It also places additional stress on the drive train.

By the same token, standard-transmission equipped cars are launched with higher revs and more clutch slippage than a conservative owner would use on his own (precious) car.

A better indicator of "real-world" performance is a "street-start", 5-60 mph test, sometimes (but not always) reported by Car & Driver.

Bottom line... regardless of transmission type, automotive testers will achieve better times than most vehicle owners because of their skill and willingness to "abuse" the machinery.

-james

hondaman02

Sorry Steve but he's taken enough potshots at me.

stever

Nothing personal, just my weekly attempt to keep the flames down enough to see the occasional gem of a comment.

(and thanks for the power brake torqueing comments).

Steve
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varmint

Scape2 still thinks that they granny-shifted the Escape during these tests.

I never said that the Escape is unsafe. I said that the CR-V is significantly safer. Data backs it up. The "lost data" that Scape is questioning wouldn't make any difference in the final ranking.

Hondaman02 - Love that show. Watch Monster Garage if Discovery ever repeats it.

Whotheman - You should really do some research before you post stuff like that. You are wrong on every count. Seriously, go look it up.

Baggs - Every mag has different criteria. They define the categories which they think matter to their readers (and the vehicles), then they compare notes. The results will vary.

varmint

Looks like Ford can't escape law suits even when they stop making trucks.

http://www.nj.com/newsflash/business/index.ssf?/cgi-free/getstory_ssf.cgi?g7766_BC_MI--Ford-Canada&&news&newsflash-financial

bess

Looks like there's another review from a professional (autobytel.com) that rated the 2002 Escape "Overall, we feel the Escape is the best SUV in its class. "

scape2

Funny how a person who enjoys their Ford product, has never had any problems with Ford products. Owns a V6 4WD Escape XLT and enjoys this very reliable vehicle and all thier data, posts, links are a joke. Yet, when Honda owner posts its solid as a rock... yeah right...
What is the weight, HP, torque difference between the 01 and 02 CRV?? Tell me how this little bit more HP and torque can help so much in power..??
Out of 9 people I would think at least 1 or 2 would have had problems according to the Honda clan.. they beat the drum over and over again that the Escape/Trib are unreliable/unsafe, lack quality... ect... yet the Escape I own has been flawless, along with 9 other people? along with over 4,300 Escape owners on an internet club??
The Escape/Trib are reliable and safe.

scape2

0-60 numbers vary from review to review. You pick the ones you want to believe thier bud, and keep justifying in your mind that your 2.4 160hp/160ft/lbs of torque is every bit as powerful as the 3.0 V6 200HP/200ft/lbs of torque..
Motor Trend quote " Vanilla good looks, thoughtfully spacious interior, layout and smoothly grippy all-wheel-drive system, make the Escape the standard setter for this class"..About the CRV.. this is a point you Honda owners seem to not understand.. "But its lack of two cylinders becomes a factor when carrying passengers or towing" Don't you get it?? Load the cRV down and it boggs down.. You don't have the torque the Escape has to pull/haul the load!

bascott

OK, One more time. I have loaded my CRV down with a full load including the roof rack. It did not bog down. You speak of that which you have no personal experience.

hondaman02

Isn't it funny how someone that owns an Escape V6 is always telling everyone that his is the greatest but when Honda fans do that, this same someone keeps putting figures down because they are relevant to him and says that we are a joke! Take your own medicine! Wemay not have the tourque scapey BUT we have the reliability!

As a recent owner of a 2001 and now 2002 model, I will say that the engines do not even come close to each other and the fact is it still beat the Escape 0-60 according to Motor Trend.

Bess......what about that article in Automobile magazine?

hondaman02

Maybe you should look at this:

http://www.autobytel.com/content/research/top10/index.cfm?id=4;4&action=top10&vehicleclass=all&listtype=1

hondaman02

Part 2

http://www.autobytel.com/content/research/top10/index.cfm?id=4;4&action=top10&vehicleclass=util&listtype=1

hondaman02

I could not link it because it was too long but the CRV has the lowest repair cost for 5 years as well.

Keep trying people to say that the CRV is not efficient or as good or popular or as reliable as your Ford and I will keep finding physical evidence that it is. I will not stand by and let people say that Honda is just another automotive company without any passion for quality products!

So what about that Automobile magazine article? Funny that no one has commented on that besides US "Honda" guys.

baggs32

From hondaman's link in post 1932:

"The Autobytel.com Most Popular Vehicle Lists are based solely on Autobytel.com user activity, and do not reflect national or regional sales figures."

That just means the CR-V was clicked on more times than any other at autobytel. I'll bet it's the most clicked on at the Honda web site too!

Same goes for the link in 1933.

hondaman02

In Autobytel, The CRV rated at 94% (2002) for customer test drives compared to 83% (2002).

hondaman02

Sorry, don't buy it baggs. If it was clicked on, maybe it is because it is popular!!?

We are always talking about how reviewers are either right or wrong when it is the average "Joe" that counts and these sites are more representative to reality!

hondaman02

http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&u=/nm/20020827/bs_nm/autos_gm_engines_dc_1

GM (Saturn) has just become a popular item in my books!

baggs32

Well of course it's popular. So is the Escape. Look at the sales figures (which autobytel's "most popular" lists are not based on) for the two of them.

daveghh

Scape,

How can you sit here and defend you 200HP vs 160 HP when you NEVER EVER respond to my points.

I am currently getting my Masters in engineering and as I understand, you are also an engineer. So, you should realize that in addition to HP and torque their are other factors affecting acceleration.

To name a few...

1. Tire Size

2. Gear Ratios

3. Aerodynamics

Check out my curves and the effect tire size has on HP.

http://www.geocities.com/davekuhn77/CRV.html

NOW, lets add gear ratios and aerodynamics! You or someone else give me the numbers and then we can finally have SOMETHING to look at rather then your constant repeating rhetoric...

Remember I have had the priviledge to drive the 4 cyl and the V6 regularly and I tell you there is not that much difference. The only advantage the Escape had over the CRV (both automatics) was from mid 20's to mid to high 30's. From 40 to 60 the CRV clearly had more power.

Scape, RESPOND TO MY POINTS 1,2,3!!!! I dare you.

varmint

One thing I forgot to mention earlier. Someone (I think it was Scape2) pointed out that Japan has serious pollution issues. That person tried to use it as fodder for reporting that the Japanese do not care about the environment.

That is as far from the truth as possible.

That is exactly the reason why they do make their vehicles cleaner. The Japanese have seen the results of industrial pollution. So have the folks in Europe. California has also. Notice how those are the places where low emissions and good fuel economy are a high priority.

hondaman02

Dave, I don't think he will be able to respond! It is getting to be like a broken record!!!

daveghh

Hondaman,
I think you are right....

oregonboy

Dave - you're right about tire size & power. I once encountered an older, jacked-up, full sized Ford 4x4 pickup with huge tires and a wicked-strong sounding V-8. I was behind him at a stop. We were both turning left onto a 4-lane highway.

After we both had made the turn, he seemed kind of slow getting up to speed, so I pulled out to pass (in my 134-HP, 5-spd. Nissan standard cab pickup). He must have taken exception to this, as he immediately got on the gas... clearly indicated by the roar of his exhaust. But he couldn't catch me!!! I was amazed. I just motored on by as his power was expended trying to spin those heavy wheels and tires. What a hoot!

I'll bet with smaller tires, the Escape would actually beat the CR-V in EVERY 0-60 comparison test... but then it would look wimpy (right, Scape?) And everyone knows that looks are more important than performance. Presumably, the big tires are for off-road performance. I guess that is also a part of the trade-off.

Regarding power in the 2001 vs 2002 CR-V and the Escape: acceleration is affected not so much by the MAXIMUM torque, as by usable torque across the working RPM range.

I would really like to see torque curves for the old and new CR-Vs and the Escape. I would wager that the new "intelligent" I-VTEK engine has a greater percentage of its maximum torque available across the working RPM range due to the variable valve timing. Does anyone have access to torque graphs for these vehicles????

-james

stever

Makeashorterlink.com will help you with those long links.

Steve
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hondaman02

Thanks Steve.

"I'll bet with smaller tires, the Escape would actually beat the CR-V in EVERY 0-60 comparison test... but then it would look wimpy (right, Scape?) And everyone knows that looks are more important than performance."

Looks are more important? Well, I guess to some but I would rather function over fashion really! It is only normal that a 15" tire on an Escape would probably go faster as there is less diameter and rolling resistance but I think the main reason Honda did not go with 16" tires is mileag. Less rolling resistance means better gas mileage. I saw a CRV at a dealer all prept up in 16 inch tires and chrome mags and it was really sharp. I also don't mind paying a heack of a lot less for tires when they wear out too!

There's that word "wimpy" again! Were you calling scape that or the Escape!!??

hondaman02

This is interesting!

http://makeashorterlink.com/?X4AE322A1

bess

As baggs noted: "The Autobytel.com Most Popular Vehicle Lists are based solely on Autobytel.com user activity, and do not reflect national or regional sales figures"

Actually, they don't even indicate what user activity is that causes one vehilce to be higher than the other.. Is it supposed to be based on sales?

The point of my post is that you've repeatedly implied that no professional reviewer has ever rated a 2002 Escape over a 2002 CRV.. I merely pointed out that there are some reviews that do give the Escape an overall edge.. Just as there are many other reviews that give the 2002 CRV an overall edge..
Both are excellent choices.

bess

And also FYI, the tires under investigation are not those found on the Escape..

Last 2 paragraphs from above article.

Despite all that, a top Continental executive refused to place any blame on Ford's inflation recommendation or on the quality of the automaker's tire specifications.

Said Continental Vice President Mark Sowka: "From our standpoint it's not worthwhile to speculate on all the potential environmental and operating conditions that may have led to it."