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Now that it seems they have it fixed (at least to me anyway), maybe they can move forward with whatever it is they need to do or are forced to do by the NHTSA. I don't imagine you can issue a recall without a proper fix.
Ford does have a TSB issued with a specific fix for reprogramming or replacement (in cases where a reprogram is not possible).
I speculate that the NHTSA simply doesn't have the resources to investigate every single issue. They've been busy as of late. They may eventually catch up with this, or not.
As for fixes, I am told by reputable posters on these boards, that the NHTSA can issue a recall even though a fix hasn't been developed. That would be extremely bad news for the manufacturer as they would have to issue a stop sales order and vehicles would wait on the lots until the problem is resolved and undsold units are modified.
In other recall news... Ford is back at it with tires.
http://www.usatoday.com/money/autos/2002-08-19-tire-recall_x.htm
Escape 9.0
Just for kicks: the 5 speed RAV4 beat them both at 8.90.
Your nit picking on the slight advantage in statistical initial quality and blowning it out of proportion.
Your also indicating that initial product quality is the same as long term reliability, which is clearly not the case.
Neither the Escape nor the CRV leave its drivers stranded on the roadside. Both vehicles are reliable. Both vehicles will go several hundred thousand miles with just normal maintenance. You constantly imply that Fords are not capable of this when thousands upon thousands of Ford owners have vehicles well over the 120k mark.
I believe it and have personally experienced it many times.
Can Ford improve it's quality, absolutely.. Honda is also far from perfect.
I wonder why are you are so concerned about reliability when you don't even own the vehicle long enough to take advantage of such reliability?
(trading in 01 CRV for 02).
I don't deny that most reports show that Honda has a slight edge in reliability. You use Ford's own statements that they should improve as additional justification for your position.. However when Honda tries to hide problem data with its vehilces from Honda owners (TSB info), you don't even question why they would do this.
You bring up other Honda models. Why is it when 'professional' reviewers write about Honda products, they dismiss the 6 times they had to have the vehicle in the shop for work to be done, but if a Ford has this many problems, its front page press..(See Edmunds review of Odessey).
The first 2 years of Escape sales, there were no incentives and it outsold every vehicle in its class. I would hope that the new Honda model could sell without incentives.
Don't forget, Honda hides TSB's, or shoult I link you there again? Still waiting for my recall notice for my wifes 2000 Accord?? Remember? the huge recall of all 99-2001 Honda's noone seems to know about?
I bet the new 2.3 is going to show up in the Escape/Trib in mid 03 or so. Mazda is putting into their new 6 sedan.
Ran into yet another Escape owner at a soccer practice. Hers has been ok too. That is a total of 9 Escape/Trib owners I have run into that have not had any problems... I take that back, one person did have some squeaks..
Visit http://www.carreview.com and check out the comments regarding the stalling Escape issue. Extremely frequent postings!
I am sure most of the Escapes are fine, and more people with problems go to the internet then those without problems. So I will give you that.
The Escape will out tow, out haul, out pull, out pass, out merge, more payload, better braking, more GVWR, More max payload, more ground clearance, More of an SUV! than the CRV.
Varmit, don't you get it?? when your CRV reaches its MAX, meaning you have NO MORE, torque of 160ft/lbs, the Escape has 40 MORE, meaning it has more, ft/lbs of torque to give... and 40 MORE HP???
Now you are just being annoying... respond to my post (Post #1726)above, if you dare.
January/February of 2002 Special 5th Anniversary Issue, Page 28
Bess - According to the latest information from CR, the Escape is 40% less reliable than the industry average. At last rating, the CR-V was about 80% more reliable than the industry average. You may call that slight if you like, but I don't see it that way.
Scape2 - I understand that the Escape has more power. Once again you are putting words in my mouth. I've never said that the CR-V was "more powerful". So, here we go again...
What I don't understand is why the Escape can't use that power to accelerate. Imagine that, a V6 with an extra 40 hp and 40 lb-ft can't outrun a little four banger. By every measure, the Escape should dust the CR-V. But it fails.
Looks like Ford can't get the job done without a V8. Slurp, slurp, slurp, slurp... stall... slurp, slurp...
Anybody have any acceleration figures for loaded vehicles from 50-70 mph?
To the best of my knowledge, no one has published 50-70 times with loaded vehicles.
Scape2 - As long as I'm at, I decided to take another look at the 40hp/40lb-ft differences you are so fond of quoting.
First of all, you are talking about a measurement taken at the flywheel. Neither vehicle delivers peak output once it makes it way through the drivetrain. Generally speaking, it is estimated that a vehicle loses 15-20% of its power before it reaches the wheels.
Although it is often rounded off to 200 for simplicity, the Escape's true torque output is 196 lb-ft. The CR-V is rated at 162, making the actual difference 34 lb-ft. If we knock of 15-20% from both vehicles (for the drivetrain) and do the math again, the difference becomes 27-29 lb-ft. The Ford still has a significant edge, but not as much as published numbers would have us believe.
That's with automatic transmissions. Manual transmission are generally more efficient than automatics, which is why we see the manual CR-V beating the Escape in those 0-60 tests. If we take that into account, the real-world torque difference between the auto Escape and manual CR-V is more like 21 lb-ft. Now, we're talking about half the difference you like to quote. Add to that the fact that the manual CR-V is about 170lbs lighter than the Escape, and we've got a more competitive match.
I hope this will be the last time I say this but I change cars often due to the high mileage I put on them. I usually put about 40000km's a year or more depending. I have put over 200000km's on my wifes Accord and have gone in once for a minor door squeek. Plus, with the company, we rent as well, so I have put very many miles on almost every Honda make. That is the reason I ended up buying Honda in the first place after all the bad experiences we have had with previous models including all domestics.
As for being stranded, well I disagree as the Tribute I had did leave me twice! I don't want to go there because I do believe that this is an isolated incident. My main concern is long-term reliability and that is where Honda has alway shined! This has been proven so many times that we don't have to discuss this anymore.
Scape we know it is more powerful dream up something else please!!!!!!! What we are saying is that for a 4 cyl. it is very close and for an engineer (!!???) you should understand this. Also your tourque statement s don't make sense. If the Honda develops 90% of it's tourque immediately and the Escape higher up and then drops off, that should explain the acceleration run Motor Trend experienced along with the technology of vtec. I am really starting to wonder about you.
After having my new baby for a week, I can say that there is quite a nice little engine under the hood. It seems to be very good at almost all it does BUT after the Tribute, I would not say it is more powerful but very close.
"0-60 times are not especially relevant."
I agree with you there. However, I was corrected on this once by someone, and it did make some sense to me. 0-60 times can be relevant in situations like highway merging. A second or two could mean the difference between getting smashed by a semi, or being a safe distance ahead of it.
This of course only pertains to those that do stop on the on-ramps which is often times just as dangerous as not timing your merge right.
However, I've been able to make those merges while driving rental Focuses and other "underpowered" cars. Neither the CR-V nor the Escape should have any significant trouble. Besides, sometimes a good merge means hitting brakes, not the accelerator.
http://www.msnbc.com/news/796496.asp
But, people seem to be EXTRAPOLATING this Accord/Civic reliability to ANY Model from Honda stable. The fact is: even Honda has had issues with other Models atleast initially. Honda Odyssey trannys and power door have had terrible problems during their teething years (some of them still even today). Mind you, I am not saying that they are inferior models - infact, most of the Honda models can stand well with their peers. But we cannot always conclude that ALL Models from Honda is ALWAYS good.
My girlfriend purchased a 98 CRV new and has had no mechanical problems in 65,000 miles. We have driven the Honda across country and it was terrific. And lets not forget the gas milage advantage with the Honda.
In addition my cousin has a 99 CRV with 180,000 miles and has had no mechanical problems.
Consumer Reports has rated the CRV as the most reliable sport utility made.
And of couse the Honda Resale value is amazing. You can drive the vehicle for a couple of years and recieve a few thousand less than you paid for it.
Now if you need more power than the CRV why not consider the new Pilot, or some other quality Japenese SUV that will have great resale value.
I wish Ford had a better reputation for quality but we all know the reality here. Ford still does stand for ( Found on the road Dead ).
As I remain you motoring enthusiast.
Ford could have a mission statement that would say: Yesterdays quality and engineering today. Recalls everyday
That may be true of some models, but not in this case. The CR-V has been MORE reliable than the Accord and Civic for the past several years.
MPG.. the 2-3 mile advantage the CRV offers is not that big of a deal.. Kind of like 4 feet worth of stopping distance :-}
Those small 15" tires sure make the CRV look even funnier. I don't think you could fit anything larger under the wheel wells. It almost looks like the CRV has 14" wheels.
Reliability.. The CRV has more history than the Escape. I admit the Escape started off with bad news and Ford/Mazda fumbled bad. However, if you would actually read the recalls you will see they are for early 2001 models and NOT for every single Escape/Tribute built, only certain lots and dates. The fact is my late 01 Escape has been flawless and I would be willing to bet the vast majority of Tributes/Escapes are the same.
I own a 2000 Accord, back to the shop 3x.. Also own a 98 Ranger, back to the shop 0x, Escape back to the shop 0x... Hmmm...
I need some advice here, now that I think about it.......the woman I work with that owns a Tribute asked me this morning about her check engine light. She informed me that her husband was towing a couple of 4 wheelers when it came on and has never turned off since. Does anybody know what I should tell her? Is this a common problem? The Ford dealer did not seem to really know what to tell her and she was worried. I would appreciate a comment from those that own this vehicle please so I could let her know if it is something that you have had happen before.
The check engine light staying on does not come up all that often and can be caused by one of many many things.
One thing that immediately came to my mind was the 4X4. Do you know if they were using it on dry pavement to tow the 4 wheelers? Just a shot in the dark, but that would be a bad thing to do.
Yes. Or maybe I should say, "DUH!"
However, it is a fact that transmissions suck power from the engine. It is generally accepted that the percentage lost is between 15-20% for automatics and less for manuals. I used the same numbers for both vehicles, so comparison is as we good as we can get without the actual percentages.
"Once again... try and try to make your 4cyl every bit as good as the V6!! LOL!@"
I don't need to try for "as good as". The 4 cyl is "better" for everyday use.
If you care about things like fuel mileage and emissions. Not every one does you know.
Even then, the difference in fuel mileage is still less than ten mpg. The emissions might present a greater difference, but since I don't hug trees on a regular basis I tend to ignore those numbers.
I agree baggs, the bark may be a little rough!
According to an article I read, the Escape's demographic is 52% female with an average age of 41. (The CR-V is similar.) Do you think they care much about stump pulling?
There now, don't we all feel better that I did not bring up reliability issues with the escape??
Which one is the better daily driver is all up to the buyer. All we cared about is which one would better pull us up hills and around town with a load of crap (not that crap, get your mind out of the gutter) in the back or on top. Towing had no part in our decision process. I didn't even want the tow package but I didn't have a choice.
Each vehicle holds clear advantages in a couple of "daily driver" categories (mpg, hp/torque, emissions, etc.) that can, and most likely do send the dollars of some people to one side or the other. But they shouldn't be used to measure which one is the better "daily driver".
"Do you think they care much about stump pulling?"
Not at all. They do need something to carry those heavy shopping bags home from the mall though. Maybe they figured they could use the extra power to tow a small UHaul trailer when the back fills up.
I think it's more realistic to point to indicators like the CARB proposals. It may not happen today, but, as those ideas gather momentum, they will get passed. Can you imagine what would happen to Ford if they were no longer able to sell their big trucks in California? How long would it take before Massachusetts follows? We already follow the same regulations. So do several other states.
People certainly do care about the environment and (despite pressure from Detroit) it's starting to take effect. Toyota and Honda understand that and they've done something about it. Other manufacturers are trying to catch up. Ford understands that fact, but their bottom line is still sore from the pounding it has taken in recent years. They've announced that they will not introduce any new "green" ideas until they get financially stable. That means sell the gas guzzlers as long as they can. And they know that time is limited.
Baggs - The CR-V does get around town with plenty of authority. Several reviewers have stated that the I4 feels like a V6. If you don't believe them, take a look at the sales figures. Americans vote with their wallets. Sure, the Escape may be better able to tackle steep hills when fully loaded, but how many people do that everyday? Do you really think that ordinary people need a U-haul to get home from the mall? Do you really need 200hp to get up hills while loaded, or carry Christmas packages, or commute to work with 4 people in the car?
Guess again.
It's like using a sledge hammer to drive in a roofing nail. Sure, it's nice to have that kind of power, but it isn't necessary. And I, for one, would not want to spend the day lugging around a sledge on the roof!
The better daily driver is not something that is measured. Everyone has to figure that one out on their own because they are the one's who will be driving it. Look at Pepsi and Coke, or McDonalds and Burger King.
Anyway, back to the unreliable escape topic.
Unfortunatly, it takes alot (I'm not sure of the exact number) of on/off cycles after the cause is remedied for the light to go off.
This happened to my Escape and the light was on for 2 days even after I put the cap on properly (yep, it was loose). Rather than wait for enough off/run cycles I just disconnected the battery for 10minutes to reset the computer (which resets the light as well).
The mileage I get in the CR-V is similar to the EPA ratings, never got close to it in a Ford (Mustang, Ranger, F-150 owned by me or my family)
That being said, I'm a little surprised Ford will beat Honda to the market with a hybrid powertrain, especially since Honda has one that works in the Civic.
Maybe the hybrids will make the Escape more reliable since newer technology is involved. Based on their history and admitting their quality needs improvement, I have my doubts.
Varmit, as I have said, keep trying to make believe in your own mind and world the 4cyl 2.4 is everybit as powerful as the 3.0 V6 in the Escape...
Sales.. Its already been shown the Escape/Tribute OUTSOLD the CRV.. yep, people speak with their wallets..
Yup scape....and you keep on praying that after your warranty wears out in 3 years you won't need to open that wallet of yours!!!!
Yes but they only produce about 250,000 Escapes/Tributes combined at the KC plant each year. Honda produces about the same amount (I think) of CR-V's in both of its plants each year. It is quite possible that fewer Escapes are produced than CR-V's. No matter how big you are, you can only sell as many as you produce.
As I posted a little while back, Ford will be producing the HEV, some 40,000-50,000 "regular" Escapes, and the upcoming Mercury version in its Avon Lake plant starting next year. If they can sell all of them, Honda won't be able to keep up unless they somehow increase production too.
Ya see scape......all that hooplaaaa for nothing »LOL!!!!!! Have faith my friend! We Honda guys are not all that bad!