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Comments
The odyseey's problems were fixed VERY fast and now it is the tops of all reviewers!
Ford as a company in general has had many reliability issues compared to Honda or Toyota. As I said before.....reputations are earned not given!
You cannot Blindly consider ANY model from Honda/Toyota just because they have Honda/Toyota label. Even they have had issues with their models.
There is no such thing as a perfect car, however, engineering skills and quality parts do have their advantages in the long term. Some of you have had Fords forever with only minor issues BUT if you take 200 000 Taurus's and 200 000 Accords, tell me which one has the best record!!? Let's not go to insults on this topic this time please......just use some plain old proof.
We were looking at Escapes and in Canada the only way it could compete price wise was by forgoing the 4x4 and getting the XLS (the duratec IMHO was an absolute necessity) version. Not much of a comparison.
To your comparison about 200,000 Taurus/Accord - I have agreed earlier that Honda/Toyota on an average have less problems than their peers. But my point is: as I have stated earlier, people seem to be EXTRAPOLATING the Camcord/Civic reliability to ANY Model from Honda/Toyota stable - which may not be always true. Even '02 Camry didn't get as good a rating when a recent crash test was done..
Odie
"In order to win as many racing series as they have, you have to be reliable to finish and Honda's record in this area is very hard to beat."
We've been through this before. Ford participates and does well in more forms of racing than Honda. So saying that Honda's reliability is better because thier race program is better is making an association that simply does not exist.. Thats just wishful thinking.
Another quote:
"The odyseey's problems were fixed VERY fast and now it is the tops of all reviewers!"
Even when the "Odyseey?" had 6 different problems requiring time in the shop for the Edmunds review, they overlooked these and touted how good the Honda was..(showing bias in the review).
Also, the Escape problems were fixed very fast as well. The number of Escape's affected by recall is far less than the number of Odyssey's or CRV's affected by recall. This gives me an indication that Ford found/fixed the problem very quickly as well..
This could (just a theory) indicate that Honda is much slower to admit they have a problem and thus the number of affected units goes up.
Another quote:
"Their (Honda) issues have been much less in both gravity and number(go see NHTSA site)"
It is your 'opinion' that Escape issues were less in gravity.. When I look on the site, I see about the same level of problems being reported for both. You can't use the number of TSB's issued because:
1. Honda does not make public TSB's any more.
2. Ford uses the TSB process much more effectivly to convey information that isn't even problem related. (such as recommended oil weight)
3. There were several TSB issues that got counted multiple times (same tsb # and everything) appearing multiple times and being counted every time.. Sorry, but the site is bad.
So, the only numbers you can really use on the NTHSA site is the recall numbers.
If you look at the number of vehicles affected by recalls, far fewer Escapes have been recalled than CRV's.
Overall, again it does support Hondaman's statements that on the average most Honda vehicles experience fewer problems than most Ford vehicles.. Honda also usually rated higher for customer satisfaction etc as well..
One set of numbers that did suprise me. The average yearly cost for repairs for Honda vehicles was sometimes higher. (even when the 'number' of problems on average was lower).
Average yearly cost for repair:
Escort model year 91-97: $747
Escort model year 98-00: $455
Civic model year 92-95: $809
Civic model year 96-00: $555
I tried my best to use models spanning similar years so we can assume mileage would be similar.
In the Escort Civic comparision, often the Civic experienced fewer problems, but the cost of repairing the problems that did occur was much higher, offsetting the fact there were fewer..
Even though the Hondas have a slight statistical reliability advantage, the cost to the consumer for each is very similar.
btw: "Average Yearly Repair Cost" relates to money spent on repairs and maintenance
in the past 12 months, excluding collision repair costs.
Camcords have been refined for long years and I accept, their reliability/Quality is definitely one amongst the best in their category. But, if you do enough research - you can find equally creditable/better alternatives (price v/s performance) in most categories where they compete. Just be **willing** to consider other models as well..
NHTSA CAMPAIGN ID Number: 00V210001Component: FUEL:THROTTLE LINKAGES AND CONTROL Manufacturer: FORD MOTOR COMPANY
Year: 2001 Make: FORD TRUCK Model: ESCAPE Recall Date: 08/09/2000
Type of Report: Vehicle
Potential Number of Units Affected: 1193Manufactured: 01/2000 - 07/2000
Check to order research. Submit below. NHTSA CAMPAIGN ID Number: 00V223001Component: STEERING:WHEEL AND COLUMN Manufacturer: FORD MOTOR COMPANY
Year: 2001 Make: FORD TRUCK Model: ESCAPE Recall Date: 08/14/2000
Type of Report: Vehicle
Potential Number of Units Affected: 1393Manufactured: 04/2000 - 07/2000
Check to order research. Submit below. NHTSA CAMPAIGN ID Number: 00V260001Component: WHEELS:HUB Manufacturer: FORD MOTOR COMPANY
Year: 2001 Make: FORD TRUCK Model: ESCAPE Recall Date: 09/14/2000
Type of Report: Vehicle
Potential Number of Units Affected: 1325Manufactured: 10/1999 - 08/2000
Check to order research. Submit below. NHTSA CAMPAIGN ID Number: 00V277001Component: FUEL:FUEL LINES FITTINGS AND PUMP Manufacturer: FORD MOTOR COMPANY
Year: 2001 Make: FORD TRUCK Model: ESCAPE Recall Date: 09/22/2000
Type of Report: Vehicle
Potential Number of Units Affected: 10850Manufactured: 10/1999 - 09/2000
Check to order research. Submit below. NHTSA CAMPAIGN ID Number: 00V387002Component: VISUAL SYSTEMS:WINDSHIELD WIPER LINKAGE:PIVOT: DRIVE ASSEMBLY Manufacturer: FORD MOTOR COMPANY
Year: 2001 Make: FORD TRUCK Model: ESCAPE Recall Date: 11/29/2000
Type of Report: Vehicle
Potential Number of Units Affected: 46000Manufactured: 10/1999 - 11/2000
Escape Artist: Ford’s mini-ute frees itself from tight spots and helps us to weekend getaways. By Greg Anderson.
The 2001 Ford Escape was off to a rocky start before setting even one of its all-terrain tires on a dirt road. That is, the latest sport-utility from the Ford Motor Company was baptized by a forthright-if somewhat embarrassing-procession of recalls. At the time of the Escape’s debut, Ford was embroiled in the Firestone tire debacle, so the company wasn’t about to take any chances regarding potential mechanical failure of another high-volume product. The official list of gremlins included cracked plastic on part of the cruise-control servo, a damaged or incorrectly installed steering-wheel fastener, a fractured ball socket in the windshield-wiper linkage, four-wheel-drive rear hubs mistakenly assembled on two-wheel-drive models, and damaged O-ring seals near the fuel filter
Except for the rare times when the CD player was under the knife, no one ever accused the Escape of being too quiet. From what some described as “excessive wind noise” to an engine that was “noisy under even partial throttle,” there was never a shortage of aural feedback to keep us entertained. Vibrations that made their way into the cabin, however, seemed to have a way of manifesting themselves as nerve-shattering rattles, but, in the Escape’s defense, those irritants would usually manifest themselves on the more pocked sections of Michigan’s back roads. By the 30,000 mile mark, however, the Escape had some severe creakin’ and ratlin’ goin’ on during acceleration and braking. The service techs adjusted all the door strikers in an attempt to quiet the beast, but the dashboard continued to buzz like a coke-addled cicada.
The Escape was hardly what we’d call hassle-free, but at least its ailments were remedied under warranty. At its 15,000-mile scheduled maintenance, the master brake cylinder was found to be leaking fluid and had to be replaced. At 24,000 miles, the passenger’s-side rear interior door handle lost a retaining bracket and was repaired at no cost. Not so forgivable was the Escape’s final transgression, which occurred near the end of our year-long test: The transmission foundered, requiring replacement of the entire transaxle. With 6000 miles remaining on the powertrain warranty, the replacement was covered: we never saw a parts bill, but at 9.6 hours, the $75-an-hour labor bill alone would have run $720 were it not for the guarantee.
Although it stumbled out of the blocks and didn’t impress us with long-term reliability, the Escape has somehow, well, escaped what could have been a disastrous introduction for an all-new vehicle. In the end, the Escape proves that sometimes the package is as important as the product.
ANY QUESTIONS???
That article coincides a lot with what my girlfriend experienced when she had the V6. It felt cheaper then my CRV, we both admitted that without much hesitation....
intmed99,
Thanks for re-posting all of that info for the hundredth time.
Automobile magazine seems to be able to predict long term reliability by driving one copy for one year. I didn't know that their Escape was representative of the whole flock.
I guess one year is long term to them though. They do give the vehicles back when they're done testing.
I do have a question. How's the sludge in your 4Runner's engine holding up?
I have to 'fess up, it 'twas I! You DID read them all, didn't you?? ;-)
tidester
Host
SUVs; Aftermarket & Accessories
Steve
Host
SUVs, Vans and Aftermarket & Accessories Message Boards
If you want to discuss more about the 4Runner, i invite you to the Edmunds' 4Runner board...i am more than happy to "reveal" the superiority of my 4Runner to anything you have. Please come over if you can provide an intelligent argument! I love a good argument.
You own an Escape, don't you?? That is so funny!
AUTOMOBILE magazine is one of the best at evaluating their long-term vehicles in my opinion. They are very fair and honest. Sorry, if it cut your vehicle down to nothing. I wish i could feel your pain right now, but, fortunately, i have never felt that. Why? Because i buy Hondas and Toyotas.
So, those problems in the FIRST year are normal??? Boy, you're pretty generous with your cars. I am sorry, but my old Honda CRV didn't have ANY of those problems for the 4.5 years i owned it and after 99,700 miles! BTW, i also off-roaded my CRV too...and not one single rattle after those miles!
Face it, your argument is weak and unsubstantiated! Your car's structural integrity is about as weak too! Man, i am STILL laughing that you owned an Escape!
Are you coming to the 4Runner board??
"The program is for 3.3 million 1997 through 2002 Toyota and Lexus vehicles with 3.0-liter, V-6, or 2.2-liter four-cylinder engines."
Please feel free to comment on this....
HOWEVER...I am also one to defend fiercly the term reliability and I still find it amazing how much proof there is to Honda's and Toyota's reliability and resale value BUT still some say it is not as good or on par with Ford!!!!! OF COURSE Honda and Toyota have issues but what kind??? Stalling, creaking, rattling, wrong parts, bad assembly, cheap suppliers etc......C'mon people!
Bess, yes Ford has a good record at racing but it also has a bad one as well! F1 is a good example of how both Ford and Honda are struggling right now so its equal there! Overall, Honda has won more in the past 30 years than anyone and Ford does not race anything more than cars as Honda races everything down to lawnmowers!
8u6hfd "Official Toyota Press Release on Sludge" Feb 10, 2002 8:01pm
I personally have only read about a few Sienna owners having sludge. Now back to the fighti..., er, exchange of information.
Steve
Host
SUVs, Vans and Aftermarket & Accessories Message Boards
Also, where Honda has motorcycles, Ford has trucks (on and off road) where they do very well.
Every automotive series that Honda participates in, Ford also does,(scca, F1, GTP, cart, irl, formula,road racing, touring car, autocross etc ).
Ford series that Honda doesn't participate in or isn't a major player:
Winston Cup, Bush Grand National, Craftsman truck, NHRA, World Rally, Monster truck (eew), CORR, SCORE (off road trucks)..
I'm sure there are more. Basically, your statement that 'Honda has won more' is disputable and since you made the claim, I'll ask for your data to back that claim..
Your use of truck racing is irrelevant as Honda does not have one and does not feel the need to make one at this present time. They have always put a lot of technology from racing into their cars and as I said before, to win races your engines have to last and Honda has won more in 30 years than Ford. Williams F1 team, McLaren F1 team, Target (Chip Ganassi) race team etc......I could go on. Do the words "World Champions" mean anything to you?
Engine technology is not just for road cars. Some companies use this as a marketing tool when they win and Honda has done that very well. Some people on this board feel that a squeek or a door rattle is a MAJOR problem but I think that your engine and drivetrain parts are the most important and must last. Honda makes engines for almost anything and they are more expensive but wanted accross the world. If you had to choose to buy a generator from Honda or Briggs and Stratton, which one would you want?
Where do you think all this modern technology of over-head cams, 16 valve technology, vtec, etc... comes from? The Domestics did not invent this but they certainly can copy it can't they?
Read some of the inventions and tell me that they are not in cars today?
Hmmm, i didn't know i was asking for any support. If i had given that impression, please accept my apology because i frankly do not need your help. Thanks.
LIke the HP curve!! Notice none of the Honda folks with the more powerful 2.4.. LOL! wanted to comment on that one...
Just turned over 16K, on my "unreliable" (per varmit, hondaman02) Escape.. went to central Oregon to do some bike riding these last few days.
Went to the 3 sisters area, beautiful country. The Escape handled well, performed beautifully.
I now know of 9 people that own either an Escape or a Tribute. NONE of these 9 people that own from 01 to 02 models have experienced ANY problems that would make them trade or not buy another Ford/Mazda product. There is an Escape club on the net.. I can't link it its against Edmunds policy. They have over 4,300 members/visitors. They did a poll and asked if anyone had these massive failures that some Honda owners just love to claim.. Less than 1 percent!! had stalling OR problems that had caused them to trade or use lemon laws!! its only a matter of time that this reliability garbage is gone...
Got back from a rain drenched trip to northern Ontario with the 5-speed V, and I can assure all of you that the acceleration between 50-70mph is awesome. Between 3500-4500 rpm, it is a blast to pass etc. It really cannot not be compared to any other 4 cyl. Check our the Lienert's recent Detroit News review or David Booth's National Post review on the new Accord - which has the same engine (both are great reviewers) - and they both say the same thing. Screw the 6 cylinder 240HP Accord and take the 2.4L 4 because it is that good.
Scape...your environmental view is really primitive, if I may say so. Even though the 6-cylinder Escape is NOT the problem, the big, fat, heavy, turgid, belching other SUVs in Ford's family are a real 1) environmental calamity; 2) human health risk (air pollution and collision risk for the other guy; 3) a National security threat. The Arab states must LOVE watching the new 5000+ lb boats coming out of Ford at auto shows, knowing that their oil fortunes are assured. If the Drudge Report is to be believed, at least one of these states paid Osama hundreds of millions of dollars to target non-Saudi countries. 2-3mpg is a big difference when you do the rest of the math.
2mpg x 15,000miles/yr x 100,000 SUVs/yr sold. Then multiply by the # of years the product is sold and divide by the average gas mileage to see the huge number of barrels of oil needlessly spent.
Is it really true they disguised an Excursion for the German sub in U-571? Escape still looks a lot nicer than the CR-V though.
"The transmission foundered, requiring replacement of the entire transaxle." Geezus! Lucky for AUTOMOBILE magazine (and Ford), they get to return the thing after 12 months - can you imagine how bad the 24 month review would have been? Or the 36 month review? I bet some of the folks who leased an Escape will be reviewing their contracts for an escape clause as they approach 36K miles. Ha ha ha - "ESCAPE clause", get it? - hee hee hee.
Because I'm such a caring guy, I think I will borrow one of GG Jr.'s old baby rattles and stick it in the glove compartment of my CR-V. That way I'll be able to empathize more with the Escape owners
Actually, it is the Times of London making the claim - Drudge is only drawing attention to it.
tidester
Host
SUVs; Aftermarket & Accessories
I then showed you that Ford is involved in more types of auto racing than Honda..
Now you want to exclude all other forms of auto racing and concentrate only on F1..
I too am an F1 fan and I do recognize that the F1 series is one of the most technology advanced forms of auto racing out there..
However, I'm also a fan of many other types of racing and am able to recognize that there is alot of technology in other forms of racing as well.
Also, the Japanese (or Honda) did not invent the OHC engine.. It was found in Jeeps back in the WWII days, and in the 1956 SCCA championship car, (based on Norton engines).
VW's Scirocco 16V engine was in the states in 1986. Maserati had a 16V in 1950.. The history might go farther back than that.. Again, not a Japanese (or Honda) invention..
The MG had EFI in 84, (long before the Accord in 1990), and the Chrysler 300D had fuel injection in 1958.. Again, not a japanese (or Honda) invention or first use..
I'm sure I could find alot of instances where Fords racing technology was put into engines and vehicles in general.
The 'inventions' you posted are specific to F1 have no application to current vehicles and are specific to F1 chassis, engines and F1 racing.
I am also suprised that noone has been commenting on the HP curves that I posted. However I adjusted the HP because the Escape has larger tires. I am using 205 size tires as the reference/control and I adjust the HP accordingly.
http://www.geocities.com/davekuhn77/CRV.html
I can also adjust the curves for drag coefficients and gear ratios. It could close the HP gap more or even open it up more.
Could someone produce the gear ratios for both vehicles and the Coefficient of drag?
Ok bess.......if you say so!
Like that Automibile magazine article.....proves my point!
Honda have been world champions more often then Ford. They (Ford) do pretty well mind you but I don't see them using there winning ways very often in their cars like Honda and Toyota do. Maybe they should.
Hey scape....give us your opinion on that article by Automobile magazine......looking forward to reading it.
Keep trying in your mind to make your 4cl 160HP/160ft/lbs of torque every bit as powerful as a 200HP/200ft/lb of torque 3.0!!LOL! I am confident I would pass you while your trying to pass another in my Escape! I know day by day, week by week I made the right choice. Your another Honda is perfect drum beater. Heard the same story from the Toyota is perfect drum beaters when I purchased my 1998 Ford Ranger. It was supposed to fall apart by now.. It has over 70,000 miles on it with no problems.. I am sure my Escape will be just as reliable. I am very confident as the years go by the Escape/Tribute will begin to show its true colors as being reliable and good quality. As I have said in a chat room on the net with over 4,300 Escape/Trib owners LESS than 1 percent have experienced these stalling issues OR problems that would cause them to trade or use the lemon law...
Did you actually calculate that only 1% of 4300 people in your so called chat room had a stalling issue? I had it twice in a row wonder what percentage bracket that puts me in?
The Honda Pilot is a ULEV, so it hardly pollutes compared to other SUV's of its size. FUNNY how Honda engines get more powerful and still manage to pullute less with each iteration. The Honda Accord has a V6 but it pollutes far less then all the cars in its class. Think, before you spurt out more of your rhetoric... My crv beat the V6 on the acceleration tests! Give me the gear ratios and the Coefficient of Drag, then we finally find out the truth about the difference between the HP's.
Less then 1%! HAHAHAHAHA, that is the funniest thing Scape ever said! Many people trade and have stalling issues. Look at mny girlfriend as a an example.
So, do you have the 4 cyl or the V6????
As far as I am concerned.......all cars have issues BUT it all comes down to long term durability and Honda is way ahead. How many times do you have to read this proof? Tell me where it says that Ford is known for their quality of assembly and reliability? I would like to read that.
(http://www.car-buying-strategies.com/2002-Ford-F-150.html).
Ford does have quality engineering and highly durable vehicles. There are some exceptions, as with any manufacturer, but your implying that Ford is far worse than what really is the case..
The only reason I use Honda and Toyota is because they are direct competition and have been for a long time. They are known for their strengths in reliability HOWEVER I am not fussy about how they look and the prices they charge. The RAV4 is a great little vehicle BUT it is too small and expensive......Toyota blundered when they re-modeled this one!
I will repeat by saying that I have had many bad experiences with domestics in the past and the number of vehicles we go through each year constitutes a long term test in my opinion. We are always very satisfied with both makes over anything we have had in the past. Sorry but that is the truth. Have a look at Automobile Magazine if you need more info!
There are six in the archives - maybe we should unfreeze the biggest one. It was pretty active (600+ posts) up until the first of the year.
Steve
Host
SUVs, Vans and Aftermarket & Accessories Message Boards
Thats what will make products better..
You seem to be hung up on the HP and torque numbers, instead of what these values translate into. Simply put, my wife's 5-speed CR-V will beat the V6 Escape in 0-60; this has been found in credible testing. As this board shows, nobody has data on 40-60mph acceleration, but I think the V would show itself proudly here too.
What do you think of the magazine review above?
Bess, the older CR-V was rated the most trouble free vehicle - of any type - by Consumer Reports. I have not seen the data for the new V, but I am sure it will be in the same league.
Ford has by no means ever established reliability records anywhere except for a very select few models but even then, we see them win an award for the best in class reliability only to be de-throaned by soemone else therefore not being very consistant. The CRV from day one, had a steller record and was always considered tops for 4 years straight! Why question it? That is a fact!
Your Escapes may do SOME things better.............tow, haul !!?? BUT the main issue is how many always do this? Day to day transportation is what it is all about and Honda knows how to market this segment better than the domestics can! I also sometimes question some of their decisions like the side opening door but they do not change anything unless they find it necessary or if sales drop. In the case of the CRV, that is not happening and that back door works well without problems so why cahnge it? Would I rather a pop up door? YES! But that is not the point now is it? What about gas mileage? Safety? Assembly quality? Environmental issues? The CRV is tops in this and that 4 cyl. engine? What can I say........it is the best in its class now isn't it?
The CRV engine is one of the best 4 cylinder engines but... I don't know much about the Forester, but it has a 165 HP 4 cyl enigne in it.
The ONLY advantage of the Escape is its towing ability, other then that, what does it have the CRV doesn't? The CRV ties or excels in every other category!!!
"I have to 'fess up, it 'twas I! You DID read them all, didn't you??"
Yes I did. I still don't have my certificate from Steve though.
Obviously I didn't read everything on the Toyota engine sludge problem though. So I stand corrected.
hondaman,
Quit helping intmed out for cryin' out loud! When one, and everything one does is perfect, help is not required.