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http://www.edmunds.com/news/regularnews/articles/78391/article.html
All right, figured out why picture wasn't working...URL was wrong.
From the side, both vehicles look similar, but the dominant features are different.
tidester, host
This from the guy constantly advising us to "get out on the net"?
I won't post numbers anylonger. I thought it being a 1800 number those who did not believe me could call themselves. I even gave vin#'s so they could ask..
Facts are facts.. in my region the CRV has very little to no price advantage over the Escape.
These two do look alike when viewing from the side only. Glass layout looks almost identical. However, I have yet to read or hear of the CRV winning any styling preference on any reviews...
This insurance thing is wacked... I called three different large insurance companies and asked for quotes on an 02 CRV EX 4wd auto vs an XLT V6 4wd Escape. The CRv was more expensive by as much as 30-50 dollars each month..Go figure?? Region must matter..
Me, wanting so badly to believe that Hondas are perfect?
Where in the world do you get this from, scape???
Like I suggested to you before, stop running with your choke out, will you?
You make some good points sometimes, but you go to such extremes that the good points are a distant second to your exaggerations, which cost you credibility.
http://www.thebostonchannel.com/automotive/1791619/detail.html
Hard to believe 70000$ on gas and maintenance!! But I suppose a million miles would be quite expensive.
And you're falling for it.
Would you suggest a manufacturer who finds a vehicle with this many miles on it doesn't mention it?
Regardless, its impressive that he hung on to it for that many miles. Doesn't add much to the Escape VS CRV arguement though.
It doesn't say how many engines or transmissions the car had seen etc.
I think there is a reason for that. An average reader will simply assume that the car still had the OEM components.
"Gordon Bearrs of Ottawa, Kan., figures he's spent $70,000 in gasoline, maintenance and repairs on his Honda Accord."
In addition the car's been operated under the ideal conditions - 100% freeway driving with very little time spent with the engine shut off (very few cold startups).
Almost any car can be kept in the running order under those condition for that many miles when you keep repairing and replacing the broken or wore down components.
Why is it I am the one "running with my choke out"? and it hurts my credabiolity? But when a Honda owner runs "with their choke out" its ok, belived with no questions asked??
Huge double standard here guys....
They're not the one walking around with something like "Quality is job #1." So when people hold Ford up to that, it's considered double standard?
vadp....I am sure that if he had to keep replacing huge parts of the car, he would not have kept it!!!!!Duh!
You are right diploid......these guys have always been jelous of cars like Honda and have tried to use slogans like that and now they don't exist! However......they (Honda)are not protected from break down..........all cars break from time to time, even us "Honda guys" can accept that! However, they do it a lot less!
What makes you think we believe him, or take him seriously?
But I think the owner has alot to do with it too.
Point being, ALL MARKETING is a GIMMICK to get people interested in the product.
Yes. They were new for the 2002 model. The 2001's did not have them.
"On long trips, you need to consider wind/road noise along with seat comfort."
That's hard to do though. Unless you can find a dealer who will let you take one on a 300 mile test drive. If you're like me, and you like to drive with the windows down all the time (well, for the 6 months that I can around here anyway), wind noise is not something you should worry about.
I don't believe that you can pick a winner in the seat comfort category. No two bodies are alike. It's all based on personal preference. I happen to like a firm seat as opposed to the softer versions found in something like a Cadillac. The CR-V's were not uncomfortable to me, for the short time I was in them, either.
I still don't see how this wind noise thing is such a big deal to some people. I'm tellin' you, the Escape is quiet compared to a lot of other vehicles on the road. Yes it's noisier than the CR-V, but it doesn't sound like the inside of a trash compactor, which most economy cars do, either.
J.D. Power Most Dependable 1998 Vehicle Brands (Based on 4-5 Years of Ownership Problems Per 100 Vehicles)
Lexus 159
Infiniti 194
Acura 228
Honda 251
Toyota 276
Porsche 278
Buick 279
Cadillac 280
Jaguar 280
BMW 281
Lincoln 282
Mercury 287
Subaru 314
Nissan 321
Mazda 337
Ind. Average 355
Does the CRV have the ability to shut off 4th gear?
If they had surveyed that guy with 3 million miles on his Accord, Honda would have had about 1000 problems per 100 vehicles. All it takes is one bad egg to ruin the results. Especially when only 30,000 out of millions upon millions of owners are being surveyed.
If you sell several million vehicles a year, and your competitor sells about one third of your number, you are going to put out more lemons than the competitor. This increases the chance that one of your lemon owners will receive a survey and skew the average (which is based on a very low number of returned surveys for each manufacturer/vehicle I'd imagine).
Honda does have a better record than Ford when it comes to these surveys, I won't argue with that. But, a lot of people use these as a guide and just can't believe it when their Honda or Toyota has a problem. I just don't believe that they prove anything because I could send out 30,000 surveys tomorrow and probably get different numbers. If they collected (not sent out, there's a difference) about 30,000 surveys from owners of each manufacturer, then I'd start to pay attention.
Note on this page: http://www.usatoday.com/money/autos/2002-11-22-auto-depend.htm
that there are 5 Ford branded vehicles, but only 4 Honda branded vehicles. One of the Honda's is the Prelude. How many of them did they sell in 1998? About 100? There's a ringer that could lower an average real fast. If any of the owners actually received surveys that is.
Besides, the Escape isn't even on that list because it wasn't out in 1998.
That's true, but again, one bad egg can easily throw that off too.
Something like factoring recalls into the problem pool can easily swing numbers. Recalls aren't necessarily problems if you will. They are issued to repair a defect at no cost to the customer. A quality problem would be something like prematurely worn tie rods which would cost the owner something to repair/replace.
I don't know the recall count back then, but I'd be willing to bet that Ford issued more overall.
Maybe this is all explained on their site. I have not read the study's details yet.
Odie
Brand-to-brand comparisons can be done properly.
I do not see why recalls should not be factored in. The owner is still inconvenienced with the problem. They still have to deal with the service appointment. While the owner does not have to pay for the repairs, this is no different than an issue covered by warranty. Are we to start ignoring all problems that are covered under warranty, too?
How else could Buick and Cadillac place in the top 10 on the new JD Power ranking (besides the very unscientific method of sending out surveys) while more mainstream brands from GM (e.g. Pontiac, Chevrolet)are below average, especially given GM's notorious method of badge engineering?
Better PC/QC
More pre-production R&D
More love
Because they are usually issued to correct a design flaw that most owners never even knew existed in the first place.
Look at the stalling problem. Most people who stalled early on had to take their trucks back to the dealer several times because they (the service depts.) had no idea what was wrong at first. That was an inconvenience. If a recall had been issued early on (before the problem became such a hot topic here on the web) most owners would have only been inconvenienced for a couple of hours while a potential problem was stopped before it could happen. If the owner had already stalled, then sure, report each occurance. When the recall is issued, should they then report the repair visit as a problem too? The repair/fix doesn't seem like a legitimate, reportable problem if you ask me.
Has anyone ever actually seen one of JD's surveys? Do they specify what a "problem" consists of? Do we know if they take accidents into consideration?
"A larger sampling will not skew results. If anything, it decreases the possibility that the one lemon will skew the results."
I'm not talking about a larger sampling. Unlike CR, I would think that they try to make the samples as equal as possible for accuracy's sake. I'm talking about a larger pool/population from which you can pull the sample.
I get what you and paride are saying though. I just don't agree with it. In a perfect world, where your 1 to 100 and 10 to 1000 ratios exist, yes the theory works. But I've already pointed out that Ford most likely produces more lemons than Honda. Meaning their ratio is higher because, let's face it, they have churned out some duds in the recent past. Although, since we don't have real world figures to calculate the exact ratios, I'm just typing theories as well.
If I produce 60,000 vehicles with the same rate of lemon production, 2000 of my 60,000 vehicles will be lemons. A survey of 30,000 of these vehicles may result in none of my lemon owners receiving a survey (which makes my vehicles look great because it appears that I haven't produced a lemon). On the other hand, all 2000 of my lemon owners could receive a survey making it look like I'm producing 1 lemon for each 15 vehicles, a rate twice as bad as the rate at which I'm actually producing lemons. These, of course, are the extremes of the results between which the actual survey results will most likely end up. But, if the vehicle production is increased further without increasing the number of surveys, the potential exists for the survey results to be well off the actual numbers.
Although I think you're correct - someone owning a Buick or Cadillac will more than likely treat his/her car better than someone owning a Chevy or Pontiac.
Over the years, I have had 3 Honda's, a Nissan, Alfa Romeo, Mazda, 2 Ford's, and a Buick.
I've treated them all equally well. I had the worst reliability with the Nissan and one of the Ford's, but the Alfa and one of the Honda's also caused me some grief.
I think it's mostly luck of the draw, but I think you can stack the odds a little bit in your favour by choosing a brand that CONSISTENTLY scores well in the surveys (Toyota, Buick, Honda).
I was referring to the current debate on whether a larger sampling would skew the results on the latest JD Power quality ranking.
In my opinion, there is a correlation as to why brands that sell in lesser numbers (with the exception of Honda and Toyota) are placed higher on the JD Power survey than those that are sold in larger numbers. I was not putting emphasis on brands that are usually at the top in the JDP survey.
I don't think you can make that conclusion.
Here is my explanation of the JD Power results.
I think a small sampling size can skew the results, but when a brand scores well year after year, the statistics are significant.
For example, Porsche and Honda both score in the top ten year after year, even though they have a significantly different sampling size and demographic.
They share platforms and more than a few components, but R&D, design, mule development, quality control, etc. are all done individually.
The Rendezvous is a perfect example of a basic platform rethought and improved from the ground up to be the best it can be. It shares many similarities with the Aztek and minivan triplets, but is superior to them in almost every way.
Learn something new here everyday :-)
But why "mule"?
Steve, Host
Of course those are done separately, but the fact is - they're the same cars underneath the different sheetmetal, quality control, etc.
There is no reason why a Buick Rendezvous should allow the brand to score high on JD Power's survey while a Pontiac Aztek brings the Pontiac brand down. I doubt workers in Oshawa are told to use more care in assembling a Century or Regal while they are allowed to haphazardly assemble a Chevy Impala or Monte Carlo.
I stand by my argument that the low volume of cars sold under the Buick badge permits it to score higher on the JDP survey than those under GM's higher volume brands. And I also think that cars such as a Buick Century or Regal will not be treated as rough as a comparable Chevy or Pontiac - which would certainly affect the quality and reliability of the cars.
Hmmm, time to revisit this article perhaps, which tends to agree with you:
Twinned Vehicles
Steve, Host
I mostly agree with you on the brand differences.
It's pretty confusing when you are trying to figure out where a vehicle came from. There are many examples of vehicles built off of shared platforms/parts. There are vehicles like the Escape and CR-V which use a modified version of an existing platform. Then there are vehicles like the Taurus/Sable which use the same platform, but change some of the appearance parts. Another one would be the Navigator and Expedition. Lincoln typically scores pretty well on JD's list, but Ford does not. But both vehicles are pretty much the same save some suspension and appearance packages. I think they are even assembled on the same line. I'm sure there is more to this, but it doesn't seem to add up.
I guess it's not the best way to determine who's on top, but it is the only thing we have right now.
On another note, I've read on another Escape forum that CR uppped the reliability rating of the Escape after having tested a 2002 all year. It is now third behind the CR-V and RAV4. I don't know this for a fact, so feel free to correct me if it's wrong. Also, I still don't believe any of the hooey that CR prints. The 2001 and 2002 Escape's are about 95% identical (the only changes were in ergonomics and number of recalls). How then did one score so much better than the other?
On yet another note, another Ford forum got wind of Ford's latest replacement for the 2.0L Zetec I4 that powers the base Escape and Tribute. Word is, in Australia, they are currently testing the 2.3L MZR from the new Mazda 6 (Japanese version)in the Escape. This VVT equipped I4 produces 160 HP and 155 lb/ft of torque in the 6. Ford would most likely tune it to produce more "trucklike" numbers, meaning more torque. They also mentioned that the Escape is scheduled for a revamp in 2004 which is when we would most likely see this new engine if they decide to go with it.
I can't see any reason not to.
I tend to believe the J D Power tests the more than Motor Trend and others because they are customer based and not pre-determined criteria. Of all companies, this one has the best credibility for rating reliability in my opinion.
Honda CR-V* 30+% above industry average
Subaru Forester
Toyota RAV4
Hyundai Santa Fe
Nissan Xterra
Saturn VUE*
Pontiac Aztek*
Jeep Liberty V6*
Chevrolet Tracker
Suzuki Vitara/Grand Vitara/XL-7
Ford Escape V6 30+% below average
Mazda Tribute V6 30+% below average
Jeep Wrangler
The poster read this in their 2003 car preview, not their web site. I guess it's some kind of special edition maybe?
He stated that the review is the same, but the ratings jumped much higher.
hondaman,
I mentioned in post 2545 that I still do not place any confidence in CR's numbers. I still stand by that.
I just wanted to say that of all of these reliability companies that J D Power is definately the most accurate.