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Comments
Please don't give me the typical Honda responses....
Once again, you act like people are climbing over themselves to get these vehicles. My friend who runs a quite large Honda dealership would argue otherwise. CRV's sell, don't get me wrong but not at the trumped up pace you make it sound like.....
Just want to say that I have rented a Pilot for 3 weeks and a Liberty for 2 and was very impressed by the Liberty for an American car. It was a fun vehicle and in my opinion MUCH better than the Escape.Hard on gas though!
As for the Pilot......it was fun beating Escapes at stop lights. Even though it has more power it is also heavier but never felt laboured and was an incredible vehicle to say the least. Much better than the Explorer I rented a while back but I still liked it (Explorer).
As for some of the comments these days on this board.........well, they are repeats of the past. I see scape is still on a "kill Honda" crusade! However, he mentioned that the CRV is more expensive!!!!???? Not in Canada as far as I can see! BUT even so, it would seem that last month the sales of the CRV increased again to beat the Escape so I guess the people have spoken.
Also the comments about materials.........I thought that many reviewers stated that the Escapes materials were rather cheap!!? Fit and finish in Honda has always been a major comment of EVERY review out there and people still question these professionals.......I find that odd!
Anyways....chears everybody and please find something else to argue about!
Not quite:
http://hondanews.com/forms/corp/sales/02sep.html
http://media.ford.com/article_display.cfm?article_id=13224&make_id=trust
varmint and I kind of went over this in posts 2296-2298. I still don't see any numbers posted for the Tribute yet.
The Pilot is nothing but a large station wagon..
As far as "beating Escapes off the line"????What?
must have been 4cyl Escapes...I see your bias is fully intact...
Yes my friend......the Pilot is one fast machine for its bulk and it was VERY fun to beat them by a car length.....Remember your argument about tourque and HP???? Well, that works the same for the Pilot!
There was no bias only truth. The 4 cyl, manual CRV beats your Escape doesn't it? A 240hp 6 will too! It's called efficientcy! Go try one and stomp on it.
tidester, host
http://www.autosite.com/editoria/asmr/svsuv.asp
You're forgiven.
I posted both vehicles' Sept. sales figures for you about five or six posts back. No one knows this month's sales figures yet because the month isn't over yet.
I am well aware my Escape is not a 4x4 rock crawling machine. Your beloved Pilot has the lowest towing rating in its class. Have you seen int HP/Torque curve/rating?? for this class??
Liberty V6 is a 3.7, yes it will beat an Escape in the offroad arena. The Escape will beat the Liberty in the onroad arena however...
It was faster and who really cares about towing as you should know, 95% of people who buy these vehicles never even see a dirt road or haul more than their kids!
How am I supposed to know the 0-60 times? I rented it for work not to test it for Motor Trend! All I know is that after driving both, it is faster....not by much but it is! Who really cares? I knew it would rock your world, that is why I said it! haha
You never cease to amaze me with your hate of Honda! I have mentioned before that I like the F150, Mustang (fantastic muscle car)and Thunderbird..........I just don't really like the Escape for personal reasons I will not repeat. You just always want to believe that Honda is no better after all the years of testing and high resale values etc... when actually what you are driving today is because of them! I thought as an engineer you would know this!
Steve, Host
Hondaman - I love the internet. Do you know why? Because I constantly find peeved off Honda onwers out here. I also find many starting to question this golden "reliability" and "quality" record of Honda. Its already been proven that Honda does not allow all of its TSB data to be seen by the general public. This golden boy reputation of Honda is slowly but surely slipping away my friend. I give most of the reason why to the internet and the freedom of information being passed back and forth. So, come on out of your dream world anytime..
As for your other whining......if you really believe everything on the Internet than you really have a problem! Also, if you think that Ford has a better reputation for reliability than Honda.....prove it to me! After all the renting we do, I can prove you wrong bud! I have owned more Hondas than you have Fords and NEVER have had a problem in over 400 000+ km's of driving! Remember.....I drove one day with your thing and it fell apart twice.....some of you brushed this off as a rental and that is why......yeah right! As I said, don't tell me things I already know! LOL
To be honest....I really don't care that you love the Internet!
Detroit’s newspapers are reporting that production of the 2003 Ford SVT Mustang Cobra has been suspended because of an unspecified quality issue. An SVT spokesman wouldn’t reveal the problem to the Detroit News, but indicated that assembly would begin again on Nov. 12. The Detroit Free Press had reported the problem was related to the car’s supercharger. The Cobra suffered a major blow to its machismo in 1999 when Ford revealed that some 5300 of the cars didn’t make the 320 horsepower that the company had advertised.
2003 Ford SVT Mustang Cobra by Sue Mead (7/1/2002
Hmmmmmmmm! I guess scape you have a lot to prove afterall!
What I've read doesn't really pin the problem to the supercharger alone (which Ford does not manufacture by the way), but it could very well be.
At least they caught it early enough to do something about it this time. That shows some improvement don't you think?
Anyone have anything to add to the CR-V/Escape comparisions? - surely there are Honda/Ford bashing discussions elsewhere.
Steve, Host
BMW and Mercedes are at an even higher level and they have their problems too but overall they are much less than others in the SAME category. I have owned and rented many American made vehicles and of the three makers, Ford was by far the worst for relibility and Chrysler the best! That is MY experience. I have now owned 9 Hondas and have never had more than a door adjustment made way back! I have owned a Civic Sir that I drove soooo hard it was crazy and it is still going strong at 220 000 km's!!!
Civic vs. Neon vs. Focus = NO CONTEST. Both may be faster but DEFINATELY NOT more reliable! Speed means nothing if it cannot be used efficiently.
CRV vs. Liberty vs. Escape = CRV wins reliability, Liberty off-road capability (and I absolutely loved it), Escape is power BUT reliability uncertain (noisy and rough!) still CRV wins reliability proven by most web-sites! Each has their own quality here.
Accord vs Taurus = NO CONTEST PERIOD!
Pilot vs. Explorer = Both very good but Pilot is 5 stars all around
Odyssey vs. Chrysler Mini-Van = Close but problems like bayeclark said have occured but for whatever reason, magazines still rate it the best but I am not really a fan as I hate vans period Honda or not!
To repeat myself, there are various models of Ford that they have excelled such as I think the F-150 is by far the best pick-up out there, Mustang....has some problems but a great fun car to throw around and the Thunderbird is absolutely beautiful. However, most other models seem to fill a hole that the company seems to be trying to fill to make money but in general the cars are not that great! They are capable of dong MUCH better and probably will within the next few years BUT even the best cars have their problems from time to time and after 100 years they should be much better than a 40 year old Japanese company a fraction of their size!
;-)
Steve, Host
Please try to keep in mind that lurkers and newcomers stop in here and they may actually be trying to narrow their purchase decision down to the CR-V or Escape/Tribute and may (unbelievable I know ) not care about a 10 month old shouting match between Ford Fans and the Honda World.
Throw them a bone now and then, will ya?
Steve, Host
Winners for both companies BUT the CRV wins again!
Sorry but I think that this particular study really doesn't show any type of objective view or information that has much value.
This study has nothing to do with which vehicle is the best choice for most people.
I'm not sure what a consumer would use this study for? Would you use this study as a basis for choosing one vehicle over another?? I certainly hope not.
Look at the other apeal winners this year:
Escalade EXT for Full-Size pickup.. (thats not really a full sized pickup, and lacks the functions that a majority of full sized pickup truck owners are looking for at triple the price).
Ford Excursion. Yes, so apealing that Ford is choosing to discontinue it. Is the Excursion an overall best full sized SUV for most folks? The Expedition or Sequoia (sp) clearly are better for most folks. (The Excursion does well if your needs require that much towing capacity + huge interior space capacity, but clearly most folks don't).
Explorer Sport Trac as best compact pickup? Heck, there are some that even dispute that the sport trac is a pickup at all..
===========
Assuming they use the same methodology to determine the winners of all the catagories, and we know that the results of several categories would be very poor choices for most folks, why would we use this study as evidence to support the purchase any vehicle?
My argument here has always been reliabilty issues ONLY! Yes the Escape has some qualities that even I would like to see in the CRV (however not of the same quality!) BUT it all comes down to what it is you NEED! To me , power is not something I really thirst for! The new CRV has probably the greatest SUV 4 cyl. out there and it can really handle some rough stuff without a problem. After three weeks with a Pilot, I did not feel that I was lacking anything returning to my CRV! That is the whole idea behind us Honda fans. We can go from one car to the other and still have the same feeling and expectations whereas the American companies try to always change every single platform and when they find one that works, they keep it for thirty years!
I go for that "feel"
On the other side, and I'll use the CR-V as the example here, Honda has a very good reputation for reliability and engine quality (the engine's are very good as I have said before) and these qualities tend to stand out at the top end of the scale. But, things like styling, inside and out, and feature content tend to be on the lower side of the scale.
Knowing this, it's not hard to see why these two vehicles are in a pretty hot battle for the sales lead.
Some here have beat the drum over and over again how unreliable the Escape/Tribute are. I was at a Halloween part and learned my wifes co-worker bought a 2001 Tribute EX. Yet the 13th person I have run into that has not had ONE PROBLEM. These vehicles are reliable.
Hondaman, our neighbors down the street who have owned Honda products for the last 15 years just bought a Midnight Escape!! LOL@! They didn't like the styling or "feel" of the CRV. They saw mine and decided to go take a look and obviously liked what they saw.
I also noticed you had no comment about bayeclark's perfection of quality built Odessy.. Lots more people out on the net like Baye clark Hondaman... Lots more...
Not everybody likes the style of Honda.....I agree but the same works for your Escrap ooops Escape! I am sure that you don't appeal to everyone either just like I don't!
My argument is reliability and as for your Odyssey thing well I did comment a little as I hate vans and that also means the Honda! In my opinion they are useless! If you know 13 people that own Escapes with no problems well I know three that have them so I am using your reasoning. I had one (remember?) and it did not work at all! I guess that adds to 4!
Appearance is up to the individual, I'm not going to argue about that. Since a lot of folks around here believe everything that they read, I'm just going by what most, if not all, reviewers say about Honda styling. Specifically the CR-V in this case. I think "quirky" is an often used adjective when discussing the CR-V's appearance.
Some like the looks of Honda.....some don't! Some like American Vehicles......"I don't"!
Again, this is why the CR-V and Escape/Tribute are the top two in sales so far for this year.
Why can't others on this board be as logical in their statements as you?
The Escape has had a shakey start but seems to be on the right track for recovery but only time will tell. The CRV is in its 7th year and has only been matched by the RAV 4 as of yet. facts are facts and no changes have been made except cosmetic for 2003 so that means (usually) none had to be made. The Escape is still up in the air about the stalling issues and NVH problems.
Bess - Does that answer your question? The APPEAL study polls people who have purchased vehicles and asks, "are you happy with it?". It does not ask, "would it make everyone happy?". Also note that the results are based on only 3 months of ownership. In essence, the results of this study suggest that people who recently bought CR-Vs are happier with their choice (overall), than the people who bought other vehicles in the same class.
"The CR-V did not stand out in any particular category, but its consistency paid off in the end. Slow and steady sometimes wins the race..."
The Accord and Civic have long been heralded as the most solid balance of family values. Balance is what makes the TL and MDX so appealing. Even the NSX balances polite road manners with exotic performance. AFAIK, the only Hondas that do not share this balance are the CRX, S2000, ITR, and Element.
As for styling, I have yet to see any consistency in reviewer and owner remarks. I too have seen the CR-V called "quirky", but I've also read "bland". How can you be bland and quirky at the same time? Eye of the beholder and all that.
The CRV has NEVER stood out in one particular direction except its reliability and functionality. It basically set up the guidelines to what is on the road now with all manufacturers but that does not make it less vulnerable to being surpassed in certain areas of choice items. However, while other manufacturers are trying to re-invent this category, Honda and Toyota (for that matter) are sticking to what works and are still heating up the fire with their sales so this means the formula works for Honda or we would not be writing on this board!
In terms of setting the guidelines, yes, there is some truth to that. Originally, the mini-ute segment was populated with a few toys. The Suzukis and Geos, for example. Toyota came along and introduced a more practical vehicle (RAV4) that was still balanced with a good does of fun. That called attention to the segment.
Honda kicked it into full gear by making the CR-V more practical than fun. In it's first month on the showroom floor, the CR-V decimated the RAV4s sales. This is when the segment really picked up. Since then the CR-V has been the benchmark.
Subaru matched the utilty of the CR-V and added a little more power. Howver, they missed with the wagon styling, passenger capacity, and ride height. Suzuki tried to steal the limelight by adding the V6 that all the reviewers wanted, but the Vitara was too small and couldn't match the CR-Vs family friendliness. The Xterra took the scaled-down truck route and got lots of press for its obvious machismo, but only half the sales. GM purchased a dozen CR-Vs to tear apart and use while designing the VUE. Nice job, but too late. The CR-V was redesigned months later. Obviously, it takes a very balanced and competent design to dethrone the CR-V.
So far, only the Escape has been a reasonable challenge. Suzuki missed the mark when they added their V6, but Mazda did it right when they designed the Escape/Tribute. Essentially, they made a CR-V, but gave it a V6. Nice job.
"The CR-V did not stand out in any particular category, but its consistency paid off in the end. Slow and steady sometimes wins the race..."
Do they mean "stand out" in a good way, bad way, or both? What did they have to say about the styling?
Obviously I have not read every review about every vehicle out there. I have yet to read a review that praises Honda's exterior styling though. I've read some that praise their ergonomics which I agree with to an extent.
With regard to looks, it's like marrying someone - if the content is right they look beautiful to you and who cares what anyone else thinks. BTW has anyone noticed the 2003 Forester's roof rack base; very "V"ish.
We have had one heck of a dry fall.. no snow yet :-(...
since86, the CRV style is nothing to really scream about but every inch of it is functional. I put 16" rims with larger tires (Michelin) and it looks much better. I don't know why Honda did not do this in the first place. I have just put my winter tires on normal steel rims (15") and it looks kind of funny but at least it will be safer.
I have just turned 16000km's (I do a lot of driving) on mine that I bought a few months back and have had nothing but 2 oil changes (synthetic). This is typical of the Honda fleet we rent all year long......no problems!
I use steel rims with Nokian winter tires. I had Blizzacks on my older CRV but did not like them in deep snow....this time I comprimised for both and I am sure it will be a better combination.
Bess, as for the speedometer adjustment, I have not really noticed any difference and have not done anything. Gas millage has been the same as far as I have noticed so I am not sure if this vehicle was not already made for them in the first place. The ride is a little stiffer but I can corner faster without rolling as much. Big deal really....I only want the look anyways and am very happy with it until now with those winter tires on!!!!!
However, from your description, (stiffer ride, better cornering), maybe you have 16" rims but lower profile tires, thus keeping overall outside diameter the same..
Just a thought.. What is the tire size listed on the sidewall? (P2xx/yy r16)
I have 225/65/16 tires. I did not want to go too low profile as it is still an SUV. Looks really good. I thought there was too much space for the size of the tire and now it looks much better.
My winters are original size 205/70/15.