CR-V vs Escape

daveghh

"this topic has been argued to death.... we decided the CRV was the clear winner, hands down!"

I was only joking... I think the Escape is a cool SUV.

nippononly

when it stalls...LOL...sorry, feeling mischievous this evening! :-)

daveghh

when the steering wheel falls off!

varmint

http://biz.yahoo.com/rc/021004/autos_ford_incentives_1.html

I thought this was a crafty move by GM. Right now, Ford is (relatively) cash poor, while GM is pretty strong. GM has a large number of new models coming out and they know they'll be making strong profits. Rather than take the money and run, they are accepting lower profits by keeping up the incentives. They can afford to lose a few bucks. Ford is now forced into a price-war when they can't afford to lose a few bucks.

Instead of big profits, GM hopes to claim market share. At the same time, GM is kicking Ford while they're down.

muckyduck

I see the 2002 Tribute still appears to have problems with stalling, according to the problems thread.
Hopefully the 2003 model will have this fixed!?!?

diploid

Noooooooooo.....let it rest in peace....

scape2

Go to the problem board for the Escape/Trib. Someone actually posted numbers. 1.8% of Escapes/Tribs have this stalling issue. The same amount of HOnda Civics, Accords, and Odyssey vans that have had trans problems.. This board died when I left. The Escape is best!
V6 power, torque, towing, ground clearnance, more GVWR, more standard hauling capacity. No swing open hatch. 4x4 switch, don't have to wait for wheels to slip.. And most of all.. the best looking..
Ok... here we go again...

stever

I think I read that the 1.8% of Escape/Tribute problems translated to ~4,000 owners. Not too earth shattering, unless you happen to be one of the 1.8%.

Steve
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diploid

And the transmissions affecting certain Honda models was 1.6%, not 1.8%.

stever

USA Today quoted someone at Honda with the 1.6% figure on the 19th of Sept. Forbes and a few other sites quoted a Honda rep the following day as saying the number affected was "about 2%".

ymmv (your math may vary)

Steve
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diploid

Haven't read an article where the number was not 1.6%.

stever

Forbes

Japan Times

abc7.com

I think all of these are probably just variations of a single Reuters story so the usual grain of salt applies. Either way, it's not a whole lot of trannies, relatively speaking.



Steve

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diploid

If you do the math, it's actually 2.1%.

Can't find that stupid LATimes article that was the first to announce it. In fact I can't find any articles. I suspect the number of affected trannies was lower when the report first came out.

stever

I can't find anything "official" at any of the Honda sites either.

There's an LA Times story dated 9/21/02 here but you have to be registered to read it. It quotes Mike Spencer and the 2% number. The archives are down at the moment so I can't go back for the earlier stories, unless I can find it in a Google cache.


Steve
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diploid

I only use Google (the best IMO) and I couldn't find it there either.

baggs32

"I can't find anything "official" at any of the Honda sites either."

Given Honda's history of hiding "bad" information, I wouldn't expect to find it there either.

Here's USAToday's article:

http://www.usatoday.com/money/autos/2002-09-20-honda-warranty_x.htm

Honda says that 1.6% had to have their transmissions replaced. That means 1.6% were affected so far, and there are more to come. Hence the warranty extension for the owner's protection.

stever

Ah, that makes sense. Interesting that Hyundia put a link to their horsepower misstatement right on their front page.

Thanks Baggs!

Steve
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muckyduck

"Given Honda's history of hiding "bad" information ..."

At least Honda has fessed up to the problem. I haven't seen that Ford admits they have a stalling problem or if they have, just to say it is not serious issue.
Even one of your regular Ford owners has experienced the stall (tactic Ford is well known for)

varmint

To be fair, Ford was very forward with the information about the "recalls". They acted quickly and responsibly.

I do wonder what they are going to do about it, though. Honda has extended the warranty for those cars. What is Ford doing? Now that they know that the problem(s) are, are they going to recall and fix older vehicles? Will they extend a specific warranty? When will these problems be fixed in running production? We can't really make judgements until Ford takes action.

daveghh

Between Ford and Firestone they settled 40 to 50 cases involving tire separation of tires on the Explorers BEFORE the media ever got a hold of the story. They were "secret" settlements unbeknown to the public until after the whole ordeal was exposed. I wouldn't consider Ford a moral company and I certainly think they breached ethics in this case. Many people died after these settlements occurred and they could have been prevented if things were a little different.

scape2

This room woke up...
Hey varmit.. where is my recall notice for my wifes Honda Accord??
I had to call the dealer and asked them why I never received a recall letter... They did not know.. so I asked the service manager why I did not recieve a recall notice... Did not know.. Its fixed now by the way...
Sure is a double standard how HOnda can get away with so much, yet when its Ford or GM or Dodge they get run through the gauntlet.
Bess, thanks for the recall notice for the CRV.. I mentioned this to my neighbor and they knew nothing about it.. Do I see a pattern here??

bess

Ford does recognize that some Escapes will experience a stalling problem. They even have a TSB to address it.
Ford also agreed with the NTSHA's findings that this particular issue is not a safety problem.

Based on my wife's experience with a stalling Escape, she also felt it was not a safety issue at all.

However, cudo's to the CRV for not having a similar problem to begin with.. (thus saving you the minor inconvience of having to take the vehicle in for service to have the fix applied).

At least the dealership service experience was professional, well informed, and quick.

===
Varmit, I dont think it was me who mentioned anything about a CRV recall notice. I think you confused me with someone else.

scape2

maybe it was baggs....

intmed99

Why all this talk about transmission problems?? Honda CRV was NEVER mentioned in any of those articles. Is there a point to all this??

Should i mention Ford Focus recalls and put it on the Escape??

For the Accord, SCAPE, it is a warranty extension, NOT a recall! I assume you can read the articles, right?

freeber

Its silly comments like that, that keep this thread alive.

A vehicle stalling while driving doesn't sound like a saftey issue to me either. (??)

Luckily, possibly being stuck in the middle of no-where waiting for a tow and then being sans transportation in the mean time (til you get that free loaner) is just a MINOR inconvienience. Luckily nobody uses vehicles in emergency situations to get places.

daveghh

In addition to stalling....

Escape

CRV

Need I say more?

daveghh

Didn't scape say the Escape has a tougher frame for off-roading???

Judging by the pictures above I would have to disagree and say the CRV has a much stronger frame. Look under the passenger area, see the bend in the Escape???? The CRV doesn't have it....

scape2

we have been through this crash stuff over and over again. I notice you didn't post the part where it says some of the data was skewed?? I suppose this is from the NHSTA site again? Trying to make the Escape look unsafe isn't going to work. It meets all government safety standards. This isn't stopping sales either. Crashtests do play a part in buying a vehicle but is not the whole picture. If it was the RAV4 wouldn't sell at all..
I also notice you sidestep the rear tailgate crashtest costs/issues with the CRV and the cost to repair... Here we go again...
intmed.. so its an "extension" whatever.. bud.... Its a problem and once again Honda sweeps it under the table and hides it..

daveghh

Scape,

I agree with you. I think the data isn't as skewed as you would like to believe, but their is no point in argueing that. We have been there and done that.

I do think my second point still is a pretty good, "new" point to bring up.

Second point being, "Judging by the pictures above I would have to disagree that Escape has a tougher frame for off-roading???" At least in that section of the vehicle.

intmed99

Should i speak in another language?? The CRV has NOTHING to do with any of the transmission problem!! Hook-on-phonics do wonders for a lot of people!

stever

Civil language would be the best course. This topic isn't about Scape or any other member. We're just comparing cars, not trying to beat up on each other.

Steve
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scape2

My whole point is HOnda owners love to beat the drum and spread the panic with the issue of stalling with Escape/Tributes. Someone in another chat room actually did the math and about 1.8% of all Tribs/Escapes sold, (I am sure there is a margin for error) seem to have this issue. Then, someone else did the math and shows the same percentage of another line of Honda products has the transmission issues.. Why isn't this being beat to death and made a panic??
Dave, I cannot argue the CRV scored better in crashtests. Are you trying to say the Escape is unsafe? or a deathtrap? or what? Do you know the differnece between a 4 star and a 5 star crash rating?

intmed99

The stalling issue is DIRECTLY related to Escape; thus is OK to talk about it here. The transmission problem has NOTHING to do with CRV; thus, it should not be discussed in this much detail. It should be discussed in the respective forum.

daveghh

Scape,

If 1.8% of the Escapes have a stalling problem then that means 200+ of the Escapes sold every month will stall. I think that is significant.

So, if you read my post above I agreed to your comment and said lets not argue the safety thing, but if you want we can discuss it. In addition to the pictures, and ratings this pretty much says it all....

I think this says it all....
http://www.geocities.com/davekuhn77/CRV.html?1034728994647
30 cm not significant???
That is where your foot will be when you are trying to break!!!

bess

I didn't understand your last post? Which vehicle leaves you stranded in the middle of nowhere? Even those Escapes that have stalled immediately start back up again..
I'm not aware of any CRV issue that leaves anyone stranded either..

baggs32

"The stalling issue is DIRECTLY related to Escape; thus is OK to talk about it here. The transmission problem has NOTHING to do with CRV; thus, it should not be discussed in this much detail. It should be discussed in the respective forum."

Looks like we have another one.

Everyone say hello to Thai Edmunds and welcome him aboard. Make sure you all follow his guidelines on what can and can't be discussed on this board. Oh, Steve and Tidester, you can go home now because our new moderator/forum-rule-maker-person is here.

Anyway, if that's the way it should be, 4Runner owners need not apply either.

We can compare the old gen CR-V (which Thai did own before his 4Runner), if need be. After all, the Escape was built to directly compete with that model.

baggs32

"30 cm not significant???
That is where your foot will be when you are trying to break!!!"

Now factor in how it takes the CR-V anywhere from 2 - 10 more feet to stop (depending on which publication's 60-0 test you believe), and things get a little more interesting. If you were using the brakes before the crash, you will most likely crash at a lower speed in the Escape.

The IIHS tests one crash scenario. What are the odds that you are going to be in an identical crash (hopefully you are never in any)? The other crash scenarios tested by the NHTSA are supposedly more geared towards testing the safety restraints and both scored well there. But, in testing those safety restraints they do crash the vehicles from four more angles don't they.

So how do we combine all of this data for an overall score instead of just reading the one that sounds better? The CR-V would still have a better score, but the gap wouldn't be as wide.

daveghh

Baggs,

Sure lets compare the all the CRV generations and the Escape generations. I don't care.

When the new Escape comes out, lets throw that into the comparison pool as well!

I agree there are all sorts of accidents out there and one test is not going to represent every scenario. One thing that makes me think the CRV is more safe.... is every test has the CRV on top. The three institutes in the US for example. Each institute has several test and each one the CRV is better or ties.

In addition, if you look at the photos of the crashes any dummy engineer could tell you that the CRV probably has a more torsional rigidity and bending rigidity. I suppose it could be another mechanism accounting for the difference between the Escape and the CRV, but I highly doubt it.

I agree, the CRV cannot stop as fast as the Escape so you are on to something there.

I can't remember....
How do the slalom test compare? That could be another indicator on avoiding accidents.

warren19

Does anyone have any sales info for the month of September for SUV's? Please provide the link if you do. Thanks!

diploid

autosite.com usually has that kind of data.

daveghh

Not updated for September yet, but diploid is right.

http://www.autosite.com/editoria/asmr/svsuv.asp

scape2

Trying to make the Escape look unsafe isn't going to work with people who actually do their research and read the print at the NHSTA site.
The difference between a 4 star and a 5 star crash rating is:
" 5 - star is a 10% or less chance of serious injury"
"4 - star is an 11%-20% chance of serious injury".
The Escape scores 5 stars in all categories except one.
Once again.. I cannot argue the CRV did better than the Escape. But you make it sound like the CRV did better by a much larger margin than it really did. And I notice you swept under the carpet and did not respont do the rear tire mounted disaster just waiting to happen to CRV owners. This is a huge repair/cost for just backing up into somthing or having a small fender bender turn into a high repair cost. Insurance for CRV's is higher with the Insurance company I checked with.
Another point is the Escape WILL stop faster and better than the CRV. Its 0-60 breaking numbers are anywhere from 4feet up to 7 feet better depending on which review you read. This will make a difference upon impact or trying to avoid an accident all together.

warren19

Thanks for your help diploid and daveghh! Scape, the chances of backing into a pole is remote. If someone hits me from the back 9 times out of 9 it's not my fault. I doubt CRV owners need to loose sleep over that test.

daveghh

Scape,

You are right about the bumper test.

I indicated that stopping faster in the Escape is a slight advantage.

I never said the Escape is not safe, I am merely pointing out the CRV is safer. I would feel safe in an Escape, did I say otherwise???

Finally, the difference between a 4 star and 5 star rating between the Escape and CRV can be between 0 and 20% difference. So it could be possible, probably not likely that there is close to a 20% difference.

varmint

The differences between the NHTSA scores for these vehicles is not a big scary deal.

The differences for the IIHS tests are more remarkable.

The bumper bash, while interesting, is not a safety test. It's not relavant to a discussion on safety, and bringing it up in such a discussion is a good example of non-sequitor.

Of course, neither test is a good measure of chassis rigidity. Most manufacturers post information in terms of comparisons with the previous generation model. No overall numbers are provided, so comparison is impossible.

If you want to prove that Honda was hiding the transmission failures, knock yourself out. Have a great time. Good luck. While you're at it, develop a conspiracy theory for the Firestone debacle, or Ford's environmental policies, or why they continued to build narrow track SUVs, or...

CR-V sales figures for September were something like 9.7K. I don't recall the exact number, but it's listed at Hondanews.com in the press releases. I haven't found a reliable site that posts Ford's numbers.

baggs32

davegh,

I've only seen the slalom numbers for both in a couple of articles, but I remember that both had the Escape 1 or 2 mph faster than the CR-V.

Here's one place that I could find performance data:

http://www.trucktrend.com/editorial/article.jsp?viewtype=text&id=68878

baggs32

"CR-V sales figures for September were something like 9.7K. I don't recall the exact number, but it's listed at Hondanews.com in the press releases. I haven't found a reliable site that posts Ford's numbers."

Here's one:

http://media.ford.com/article_display.cfm?article_id=13224&make_id=trust

10,282 Escape's were sold in September. Looks like the incentives are working, but that total is still a 20.7% drop from a year ago.

varmint

Thanks Baggs. That's the link I've been looking for. Here's the one for Honda (correction: the CR-V's total was more like 9.2K).

http://hondanews.com/forms/corp/sales/02sep.html

tidester

Oh, Steve and Tidester, you can go home now because our new moderator/forum-rule-maker-person is here.

Gee, thanks! But someone's gotta stick around just to make sure the rule maker doesn't change the rules too often! ;-)

tidester
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intmed99

But, what was the point of your post again?? Thanks for pointing out that i have a 4Runner (and CRV perviously)...and my name is Thai. I am glad that you know so much about me...someone cares about me! And people say this world does not care anymore! I have posted on this forum many times...the Edmund's moderators know me already...for good or bad, they know me.